WorldChampions1902 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboy1982 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Defeat by 143 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 32 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: How long does it take to organise a referendum? How much notice is needed for a GE? The EU won’t grant an extension to go round in circles, with the May deal. So there needs to be something definitive change of direction to grant one. It it seems to me that this is going to need to be a pretty significant extension. 12 months at least which then would tie us to European elections etc. I don't agree, there's no point to them refusing to grant an extension when they know we can revoke then reinvoke article 50 to the same effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Oops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 149. Lunatic now speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboy1982 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, jamboy1982 said: Defeat by 143 Not far off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo89 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) edit: never mind Edited March 12, 2019 by jambo89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, jamboy1982 said: Not far off A job at the Beeb awaits you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, jambo89 said: is that more than the last vote then? No, it was 230 in January. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 9 hours ago, SE16 3LN said: Is that your face when you try and grasp the most basic capitalist ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboy1982 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, redjambo said: A job at the Beeb awaits you. As a member of the snp and an independence supporter I very much doubt it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Costanza Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 23 minutes ago, Jamboelite said: But it wont be as no one wants it. The legal default is no deal. A vote in parliament doesn't change that. By triggering Article 50 before Parliament agreed a deal was an idiotic decision by every MP who voted for it. There will have to be legislation on a new deal or revoking Article 50 but I still don't see an obvious way how this will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Battered and in fairness to her, she's pretty much given up the ghost in that speech. Out of her hands completely, although not really in anybody elses. Fascinated to see how close the no-deal vote is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, jamboy1982 said: As a member of the snp and an independence supporter I very much doubt it The most effective change is made from within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Vote 1 - 230 defeat Vote 2 - 149 defeat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Ditching the negociating position then. May says she is against No Deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said: Battered and in fairness to her, she's pretty much given up the ghost in that speech. Out of her hands completely, although not really in anybody elses. Fascinated to see how close the no-deal vote is. 400 majority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 She's no one to blame but herself. She booted the can down the road until there was no more road. Now it's out of her hands? Feck off. She should get back to Downing st. and pack up her shit. So far out her depth it's terrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said: She's no one to blame but herself. She booted the can down the road until there was no more road. Now it's out of her hands? Feck off. She should get back to Downing st. and pack up her shit. So far out her depth it's terrifying. There is the possibility that she took us to the precipice of a No Deal in order to bring some of the more extreme Brexiteer MPs back onside and therefore prevent the breakup of her party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) Strangely, May's deal has become possible. If we end up at a referendum then the question could be May's deal or no deal. Or May's deal or remain. Or as part of a two stage vote. You could argue that May's deal is more likely than it was before. Edited March 12, 2019 by Victorian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyJudyJudy Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Pathetic woman , tried all the spin , lies , cloak and dagger and it still never worked . General election needed with each party clear on their Brexit lines or a referendum needs called asap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Aye but like was said before, Parliament has to agree to another referendum and neither side will want that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Maybe that old fossil in Buckingham Palace will wake up and dissolve Parliament? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Weak leadership from start to finish from May, who has been a disaster. The public mantra that no deal is better than a bad one while telegraphing to the other side we would never walk away from even the worst of deals. She never has wanted to leave and has negotiated as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cade said: Aye but like was said before, Parliament has to agree to another referendum and neither side will want that. If tomorrow's and Thursday's votes go No to No Deal and Yes to Article 50 extension, and the EU is ok with the latter, then I think what will follow will be a series of votes on different outcomes including customs union, single market, ECJ supremacy, Norwegian-type deal, etc. Parliament won't dare vote on whether or not to remain in the EU, but they will also vote, eventually, on whether there should be a second referendum so that the people can vote on that question. They have to vote on whether to stay in the EU or let us decide, I don't think there's any getting away from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said: True but they might prefer us to revoke article 50. In fairness revoking article 50 would probably make some sense. As would give us some time to sort mess out a few month ain’t going to do it. I dont know??♂️ May is allowing a free vote, so no deal will not be allowed. I would surprised if 100 MP’s votes for no deal. However, what changes going forward is the question. May for the first time didn’t rule out a second ref if will within in house. That does seem the most straightforward way to resolve and probably gives mp’s a bit of a out. As an aside, DUP politicians of an amazing ability to have me shaking my head. What would a second referendum resolve if it also came up Brexit? We'd be back at square one: what sort of Brexit is it that we want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, Lord BJ said: I would suggest a brexit deal of some shape would need to be on ballet ie. May deal or no deal. Alternatively remain and some version of a deal. Basically give the people the terms of Brexit leaving. So referendum would sort out we leave and broad terms around transition or we’ve changed our mind. Ok, so it needs to be a nuanced referendum, rather than just an in/out. Parliament will have to figure out what the choices are. Sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboelite Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, redjambo said: Ok, so it needs to be a nuanced referendum, rather than just an in/out. Parliament will have to figure out what the choices are. Sounds good to me. Yes but with a nuanced referendum it still needs to be clear for the general public which isnt as easy as it sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, Jamboelite said: Yes but with a nuanced referendum it still needs to be clear for the general public which isnt as easy as it sounds. Indeed. The other problem is in deciding how to interpret the results given that various levels are involved. If we have leave split up into several options then remain would almost certainly win on a straight vote. So to counter that, the referendum would have to ask a straight remain/leave question before getting into the nuances. Or, alternatively, hold 2 separate referendums, one to re-examine leave/remain, the second only if leave wins in order to choose which form of leave. Rather them than me sorting all that lot out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboelite Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, redjambo said: Indeed. The other problem is in deciding how to interpret the results given that various levels are involved. If we have leave split up into several options then remain would almost certainly win on a straight vote. So to counter that, the referendum would have to ask a straight remain/leave question before getting into the nuances. Or, alternatively, hold 2 separate referendums, one to re-examine leave/remain, the second only if leave wins in order to choose which form of leave. Rather them than me sorting all that lot out. I guess you could have a 2 tier ballot Leave / Remain If leave is ticked please choose No Deal May Deal Or any other possibile deal on the table for leaving. Edited March 12, 2019 by Jamboelite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, redjambo said: Indeed. The other problem is in deciding how to interpret the results given that various levels are involved. If we have leave split up into several options then remain would almost certainly win on a straight vote. So to counter that, the referendum would have to ask a straight remain/leave question before getting into the nuances. Or, alternatively, hold 2 separate referendums, one to re-examine leave/remain, the second only if leave wins in order to choose which form of leave. Rather them than me sorting all that lot out. Leave already won a referendum. It shouldn't be a question of staying anymore which is the holy grail for people after effectively scuppering the initial vote. The decision to leave has been made. Another referendum on either no deal or Mays deal should be put to the people IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboelite Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The Comedian said: Leave already won a referendum. It shouldn't be a question of staying anymore which is the holy grail for people after effectively scuppering the initial vote. The decision to leave has been made. Another referendum on either no deal or Mays deal should be put to the people IMO. And around we go, what happens if after 3 years the majority now dont want to leave having seen this cluster**** ? We keep going regardless ? Isnt it worth finding out before we go beyond the point of no return? Afterall if people still want to leave then there is no harm and people get to vote on what leave looks like (or the transition element of it). Edited March 12, 2019 by Jamboelite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, The Comedian said: Leave already won a referendum. It shouldn't be a question of staying anymore which is the holy grail for people after effectively scuppering the initial vote. The decision to leave has been made. Another referendum on either no deal or Mays deal should be put to the people IMO. But subject to the expected outcome of the vote tomorrow, Parliament will have decisively voted against No deal and May's deal. Surely we should therefore be presenting alternative options to the people. Not necessarily remain, but softer Brexits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victorian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 A rescue of a decent outcome is entirely possible, but greatly diminished as long as May clings on to controlling the agenda & timetable. IF the control mania can be ended... this will end with a satisfactory conclusion. May and her inner circle of yes men / women are the absolute obstacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Victorian said: A rescue of a decent outcome is entirely possible, but greatly diminished as long as May clings on to controlling the agenda & timetable. IF the control mania can be ended... this will end with a satisfactory conclusion. May and her inner circle of yes men / women are the absolute obstacle. The other thing we need is for Corbyn to drop the idea of having a general election. We need to concentrate on getting a reasonable outcome to the Brexit issue and a general election would be a complete distraction. By all means let's get that sorted out, but later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Jamboelite said: And around we go, what happens if after 3 years the majority now dont want to leave having seen this cluster**** ? We keep going regardless ? Isnt it worth finding out before we go beyond the point of no return? Afterall if people still want to leave then there is no harm and people get to vote on what leave looks like (or the transition element of it). If the majority of people didn't want to leave, didn't understand what would happen or didn't want the uncertainty they could have voted remain. The majority didn't. Remain as an option has gone IMO. Take it to the people on how we leave but don't ask the same question again just because parliament got a decision it didn't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australis Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Does tonight's vote mean that we now can't leave without a deal, I know that vote is tomorrow but has it as good as finished that off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, redjambo said: But subject to the expected outcome of the vote tomorrow, Parliament will have decisively voted against No deal and May's deal. Surely we should therefore be presenting alternative options to the people. Not necessarily remain, but softer Brexits. Well 500 odd defiant MP's don't want to leave. That's the problem. Parliament can vote against no deal but it doesn't remove that option as it's the default situation on March 29th. Even no deal v extension should be put to the people. One thing everyone agrees with, our governance is a disgrace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, The Comedian said: If the majority of people didn't want to leave, didn't understand what would happen or didn't want the uncertainty they could have voted remain. The majority didn't. Remain as an option has gone IMO. Take it to the people on how we leave but don't ask the same question again just because parliament got a decision it didn't like. What harm would there be having a Remain option on the ballot? If you're confident that Leave would win again then you shouldn't be worrying about it. Anyway, why do we vote for Parliament every 5 years, for example? Because people change their minds depending on what's happened since they last voted. We're allowed to change our minds and, due to all the chaos that has happened over Brexit, if we're going back to the people then I think the least we can ask now is "Are you sure?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Australis...... said: Does tonight's vote mean that we now can't leave without a deal, I know that vote is tomorrow but has it as good as finished that off? No. You'll have to wait for the result of tomorrow's vote and then, if No Deal is voted out, to Wednesday's vote on extending Article 50. Even then, if the EU reject any request for an extension to Article 50, then there will be no choice but No Deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 The border no deal plan to be published. It's probably being drawn together right now and if negotiations are anything to go by will be a unicorn strewn lolathon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Comedian said: Well 500 odd defiant MP's don't want to leave. That's the problem. Parliament can vote against no deal but it doesn't remove that option as it's the default situation on March 29th. Even no deal v extension should be put to the people. One thing everyone agrees with, our governance is a disgrace. Organise a referendum within a fortnight? Are you serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, The Mighty Thor said: The border no deal plan to be published. It's probably being drawn together right now and if negotiations are anything to go by will be a leprechaun strewn lolathon. FTFY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, redjambo said: What harm would there be having a Remain option on the ballot? If you're confident that Leave would win again then you shouldn't be worrying about it. Anyway, why do we vote for Parliament every 5 years, for example? Because people change their minds depending on what's happened since they last voted. We're allowed to change our minds and, due to all the chaos that has happened over Brexit, if we're going back to the people then I think the least we can ask now is "Are you sure?" Because it renders the results of referenda and elections meaningless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, redjambo said: Organise a referendum within a fortnight? Are you serious? During an extension obviously if we must. Not that I want either to happen. You are right though, time has run out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Democracy should be respected here. The people have voted to Leave and if we have to Leave with no deal so be it. A second referendum is not required as to hold one or delay Brexit is ignoring the democratic process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 My fear here is that all these discussions have been nothing more than smoke and mirrors to put the public off the idea of leaving and force them to support going back to the EU cap in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Class of 75 said: My fear here is that all these discussions have been nothing more than smoke and mirrors to put the public off the idea of leaving and force them to support going back to the EU cap in hand. Your sensibilities on this matter are pretty evident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjambo Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Comedian said: Because it renders the results of referenda and elections meaningless. I would normally argue that if significant information arises that changes a situation then asking the people again is a reasonable action. However I tend to agree with you in this case that there has not really been any significant new information (except perhaps that a certain bus message was lying to us ;)). To be honest, my desire to have a Remain option on any referendum is motivated personally by my personal desire to remain in the EU. In the end, Parliament should have ensured that we left the EU in accordance with the wishes of the people, but taking the nuances of those wishes into account. It should have been a soft Brexit from the start, with Parliament and then the people deciding on the nature of that soft Brexit. Separately, UK nationals in the EU and EU citizens in the UK should also have been guaranteed right of residence from the get-go, rather than being used as bargaining chips. People are important. But here we are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, The Comedian said: Because it renders the results of referenda and elections meaningless. Referenda in this case was meaningless, it wasn't legally binding. Elections are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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