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Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )


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Just now, jack D and coke said:

Lender of last resort will be? 

The official Bank of Scotland. What do think Scotland can't support itself. Tell me who does GB owe? Do they not lend to an oil state like Scotland.

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jack D and coke
Just now, ri Alban said:

The official Bank of Scotland. What do think Scotland can't support itself. Tell me who does GB owe? Do they not lend to an oil state like Scotland.

I believe Scotland could support itself of course i do. But setting up a central bank from scratch wouldn’t be as simple as you’re suggesting. 

And anyway if it’s as simple as that why was Salmond offering us the utter insanity of BOE and currency union? That hasn’t ever been totally accepted as complete lunacy by most SNP voters for me. 

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Space Mackerel
2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Standard emoji to deflect as expected. I’m totally relaxed about brexit mate. I was relaxed about Indy too. 

So an announcement in the NY? How many years has this taken and it’s still next year? 

 

 

Someones massively deflecting onto indy 2 stuff. Thought this was the Brexit thread? 

 

Whats your solution to the NI border? 

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Space Mackerel
8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I believe Scotland could support itself of course i do. But setting up a central bank from scratch wouldn’t be as simple as you’re suggesting. 

And anyway if it’s as simple as that why was Salmond offering us the utter insanity of BOE and currency union? That hasn’t ever been totally accepted as complete lunacy by most SNP voters for me. 

 

 

Mind when Czechoslovakia split into 2 countries not so long ago? What a fuss that was eh? 

 

https://www.cnb.cz/en/monetary_policy/strategic_documents/c_dms.html

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41 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Haven’t noticed them myself tbh. Seems more like remainers still crying over spilt milk. 

Any idea on the currency plans for Indy Scotland yet pal? 

LOL at that one.  I haven't heard a single idea from any Brexiter (especially those politicians who brought this farce about) as to  what the plan is (apparently that is like showing your hand, but we don't do that cos this is a high stakes poker game, LOL) , how the UK govt gets itself out of this impasse, how a tiny bunch of tinfoil hat wearing flat earthers are being allowed to hold the country to ransom.  The EU is running rings around the UK govt  because the EU knows the only thing the Tories care about is access to the single market for the blessed city of London. The Tories don't give a **** about anything else and Barnier et al know it.  No deal is better than a bad deal - just remind me what the "divorce bill" is now ?  Crying over spilt milk ? As a remainer I'm rather enjoying it all.  Strange how all  those Brexit shit posts on   FB from ignorant  cretins  seems to have disappeared now that Brexit isn't quite  the  nirvana they wanted it to be. 

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1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Just in Ireland alone It is estimated that a 'Hard Brexit' would result in the Irish economy shrinking by some 4% and cost about 40,000 jobs.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2017/01/19/news/hard-brexit-will-lead-to-40-000-job-losses-in-republic--894036/

Belgium is around about the same job loses of 40,000 and the EU as a whole could see around about 1.2m jobs lost if there is a 'Hard Brexit'.

In the UK there could be around about half a million job losses, according to this article.

http://www.cityam.com/272707/hard-brexit-cost-eu-twice-many-jobs-uk

 

If there was a 'Hard Brexit' and the inevitable job losses and the shrinking of both the UK and EU economies, add this to the already weak economies of the Southern Mediterranean countries and there could be a real danger that the EU could be plunged into a recession, so could the UK as well, this is why it's imperative for the EU to get a deal as much as it is for the UK.

 

The one major advantage the UK would have post 'Hard Brexit' is the ability to adapt quickly and be flexible in pursuing trading opportunities with other countries, the EU on the other hand by it's very structure is unable to adapt as quickly as one single country can. 

The EU would need to convene a meeting of all the members so on and so forth, whereas the UK can chop and change within a phone call or two, potentially.

 

So a 'Hard Brexit' is in nobody's interests, it would hurt the UK, but it would also hit the EU hard as well, perhaps twice as hard as the UK

Couldn't agree more.

 

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jack D and coke
17 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Someones massively deflecting onto indy 2 stuff. Thought this was the Brexit thread? 

 

Whats your solution to the NI border? 

Correct me if I’m wrong if the SNP don’t like the ramifications of brexit they’re going to call indyref 2? Nicola Sturgeon said it basically minutes after the Leave vote was confirmed no? It’s surely a debatable point? 

NI isn’t my concern, I’m not a politician and can’t speak on something I don’t know that much about but it’s like anything else if the people want a solution then one will be found. They managed to stop shooting each other and blowing up town centres murdering so I’m sure they can reach an agreement here. Ireland, like I’ve said are being used by the EU in this for me. 

People siding with the likes of Sinn Fein need a proper word with themselves. 

 

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Space Mackerel
1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Correct me if I’m wrong if the SNP don’t like the ramifications of brexit they’re going to call indyref 2? Nicola Sturgeon said it basically minutes after the Leave vote was confirmed no? It’s surely a debatable point? 

NI isn’t my concern, I’m not a politician and can’t speak on something I don’t know that much about but it’s like anything else if the people want a solution then one will be found. They managed to stop shooting each other and blowing up town centres murdering so I’m sure they can reach an agreement here. Ireland, like I’ve said are being used by the EU in this for me. 

People siding with the likes of Sinn Fein need a proper word with themselves. 

 

 

So you have no solution, you're just hoping, fingers and toes crossed that we don't return to the needless slaughter of innocents that plagued the last half of the last century.

 

Thanks for clarifying. 

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4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

Mind when Czechoslovakia split into 2 countries not so long ago? What a fuss that was eh? 

 

https://www.cnb.cz/en/monetary_policy/strategic_documents/c_dms.html

 

At the time and for about 10 years after it was. Was in Czech Republic last year and Slovenia this year. Both nations reluctantly moved to independence and spent a decade establishing themselves and building their nations. Slovenia's own currency was regularly volatile in the 90s till it joined the Euro. Czech Republic initially suffered economic shock as most of the national industry was in Slovakia at the outset.

 

Both are now on their feet and doing very well. But both wouldn't deny the difficulties of what they had gone through. 

 

There is nothing really wrong with independence - or Brexit for that. The issue is the political naivity and obfuscstion employed by those furthering both. There was never any doubt of the viability of Scottish independence or a post-EU UK but they are choices diminish themselves in someways (economically and in terms of national status globally) for an increase in (somewhat) moderate political freedoms.

 

In the world going forward the trend is "ever closer union" - economic integration, increased shared and pooled political power and mutual defence. Without these things you will not control tax evasion by huge corporate bodies and the global super rich, manage and combat climate change and prevent conflict. To do these well you need ever closer unions of nations. To me that's why independence and Brexit seem increasingly outdated. They are not wrong in and of themselves but they aren't really solutions to the issues at hand. 

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jack D and coke
2 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

LOL at that one.  I haven't heard a single idea from any Brexiter (especially those politicians who brought this farce about) as to  what the plan is (apparently that is like showing your hand, but we don't do that cos this is a high stakes poker game, LOL) , how the UK govt gets itself out of this impasse, how a tiny bunch of tinfoil hat wearing flat earthers are being allowed to hold the country to ransom.  The EU is running rings around the UK govt  because the EU knows the only thing the Tories care about is access to the single market for the blessed city of London. The Tories don't give a **** about anything else and Barnier et al know it.  No deal is better than a bad deal - just remind me what the "divorce bill" is now ?  Crying over spilt milk ? As a remainer I'm rather enjoying it all.  Strange how all  those Brexit shit posts on   FB from ignorant  cretins  seems to have disappeared now that Brexit isn't quite  the  nirvana they wanted it to be. 

Maybe you need a bit of help here so let me try. Until any deals are thrashed out it’s quite difficult to have a plan. Granted the government seem to be in a bit of a pickle just now and personally I don’t really care, if you’re enjoying it then bash on. People can only speculate as to what might happen. 

Im neither here nor there about it tbh. 

Theres more to worry about in life than brexit. Count me as a meh.

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

So you have no solution, you're just hoping, fingers and toes crossed that we don't return to the needless slaughter of innocents that plagued the last half of the last century.

 

Thanks for clarifying. 

I’ve to give the solution on NI have i? 

I’ve already got a job mate. Quite busy too at this time of year, can it wait?

Edited by jack D and coke
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Just now, jack D and coke said:

Maybe you need a bit of help here so let me try. Until any deals are thrashed out it’s quite difficult to have a plan. Granted the government seem to be in a bit of a pickle just now and personally I don’t really care, if you’re enjoying it then bash on. People can only speculate as to what might happen. 

Im neither here nor there about it tbh. 

Theres more to worry about in life than brexit. Count me as a meh.

Thanks for the patronising offer. I don't need any help.  There was me thinking you needed a plan to go into negotiations so that you can get what you want., or close to it. Right now , there isn't more to think about than Brexit as  it is affecting peoples living standards now due to unprecedented inflationary pressures, probable job losses , economic uncertainty etc, etc. And then when we get past the EU break the UK govt has to sit down and start negotiating new trade deals with the rest of the world. But good for you being "meh" about it. 

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Space Mackerel
5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’ve to give the solution on NI have i? 

I’ve already got a job mate. Quite busy too at this time of year, can it wait?

 

 

You voted for it and now you're "meh" about it? 

 

I think you know the penny has eventually dropped and you were sold a pup. A pup to stop the internal arguments of the Tory party once and for all but it didn't work out like that, did it? You were a pawn in their big game of politics. 

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jack D and coke
Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

You voted for it and now you're "meh" about it? 

 

I think you know the penny has eventually dropped and you were sold a pup. A pup to stop the internal arguments of the Tory party once and for all but it didn't work out like that, did it? You were a pawn in their big game of politics. 

I’m meh in that I don’t get too excited one way or another. I voted for it but not for NHS money or because I read the daily mail or because I’m a racist. 

I think we’ll be better in the long run yes but what do I know. 

There’s more to worry about mate. 

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jack D and coke
4 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Thanks for the patronising offer. I don't need any help.  There was me thinking you needed a plan to go into negotiations so that you can get what you want., or close to it. Right now , there isn't more to think about than Brexit as  it is affecting peoples living standards now due to unprecedented inflationary pressures, probable job losses , economic uncertainty etc, etc. And then when we get past the EU break the UK govt has to sit down and start negotiating new trade deals with the rest of the world. But good for you being "meh" about it. 

Have you felt the affects yourself? If you weren’t bombarded with it in the media and LOL’ing like a bairn at posts on FB on here would you even have noticed? 

I wouldn’t have. 

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Space Mackerel
15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m meh in that I don’t get too excited one way or another. I voted for it but not for NHS money or because I read the daily mail or because I’m a racist. 

I think we’ll be better in the long run yes but what do I know. 

There’s more to worry about mate. 

 

 

You're doing a lot of "thinking" and "hoping" that things will turn out right. 

Sound basis for voting to Leave. 

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jack D and coke
Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

You're doing a lot of "thinking" and "hoping" that things will turn out right. 

Sound basis for voting to Leave. 

Is there sure fire bets anywhere like? 

I dont like the EU. I made a decision and what will be will be. 

See if it had been a Remain vote I’d have been the same and just got on with my life just like I did when Scotland voted No. 

It seems people who voted Yes and Remain can’t seem to accept these simple things and spend their life LOL’ing and revelling in problems like spoilt bairns and wanting re-runs until they get the decision they want. 

Get over it. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

At the time and for about 10 years after it was. Was in Czech Republic last year and Slovenia this year. Both nations reluctantly moved to independence and spent a decade establishing themselves and building their nations. Slovenia's own currency was regularly volatile in the 90s till it joined the Euro. Czech Republic initially suffered economic shock as most of the national industry was in Slovakia at the outset.

 

Both are now on their feet and doing very well. But both wouldn't deny the difficulties of what they had gone through. 

 

There is nothing really wrong with independence - or Brexit for that. The issue is the political naivity and obfuscstion employed by those furthering both. There was never any doubt of the viability of Scottish independence or a post-EU UK but they are choices diminish themselves in someways (economically and in terms of national status globally) for an increase in (somewhat) moderate political freedoms.

 

In the world going forward the trend is "ever closer union" - economic integration, increased shared and pooled political power and mutual defence. Without these things you will not control tax evasion by huge corporate bodies and the global super rich, manage and combat climate change and prevent conflict. To do these well you need ever closer unions of nations. To me that's why independence and Brexit seem increasingly outdated. They are not wrong in and of themselves but they aren't really solutions to the issues at hand. 

you increasingly confuse me, your saying that the bigger pooled power is better, yet you advocate more local smaller  power bases, seems a rather awkward contradiction..

police Scotland is the perfect example of the larger organisation losing its head up its own erse, and any control it once had. the EU has no control over it's self, there's so many different  groups fighting against/for their own agenda/differing problems, all undermining the whole it was never gonna work.

the small can control the large, create rules and stick to them and there's nothing the large can do, this all falls down when mealy mouthed politicians with their compromises when they see a benefit for themselves on the offing get to work. the idea that they work FOR the people and they made manifesto promises to the people goes right out the window

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1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Have to agree that many people who support Independence seem to be enjoying the utter shambles of the 'Brexit' negotiations, yet somehow think that a similar 'Divorce' between Scotland & the rest of the UK would be a breeze and be plain sailing and worked out over a few Sunday Lunches sort of thing.

The 'Brexit' negotiations are a clear example of how difficult the negotiations would be between Holyrood & Westminster.   

 

Whilst not saying independence negotiations would be easy, I don't see how they would be as shambolic as the EU negotiations, given the two scenarios are completely different.  For example there is no single market/customs union issue or Irish Border.  But what about the Scots/English Border?  Well, have one.  Would it really make that much difference?  No it wouldn't.

 

Plus leaving a trading bloc is different from becoming an independent nation state, so International Law would no doubt come into play, perhaps the UN too, etc etc  As well as years of legal precedent.

 

Also Scotland leaving would have a clear idea of what it expected from leaving the UK based on international law and precedents.

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2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Just in Ireland alone It is estimated that a 'Hard Brexit' would result in the Irish economy shrinking by some 4% and cost about 40,000 jobs.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2017/01/19/news/hard-brexit-will-lead-to-40-000-job-losses-in-republic--894036/

Belgium is around about the same job loses of 40,000 and the EU as a whole could see around about 1.2m jobs lost if there is a 'Hard Brexit'.

In the UK there could be around about half a million job losses, according to this article.

http://www.cityam.com/272707/hard-brexit-cost-eu-twice-many-jobs-uk

 

If there was a 'Hard Brexit' and the inevitable job losses and the shrinking of both the UK and EU economies, add this to the already weak economies of the Southern Mediterranean countries and there could be a real danger that the EU could be plunged into a recession, so could the UK as well, this is why it's imperative for the EU to get a deal as much as it is for the UK.

 

The one major advantage the UK would have post 'Hard Brexit' is the ability to adapt quickly and be flexible in pursuing trading opportunities with other countries, the EU on the other hand by it's very structure is unable to adapt as quickly as one single country can. 

The EU would need to convene a meeting of all the members so on and so forth, whereas the UK can chop and change within a phone call or two, potentially.

 

So a 'Hard Brexit' is in nobody's interests, it would hurt the UK, but it would also hit the EU hard as well, perhaps twice as hard as the UK

 

The EU already have most of these trade deals in place though, the UK doesn't.  Also, you are a country and you can make a deal that allows you trade with 27 countries in the largest economic market in the world, or you can pick Britain first.

 

Not denying the EU will suffer from Brexit.  Evryone will.  But the EU may be more robust in minimising the rupture, than little old us.

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2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

That may well be, but the fault lies at the Brexit Tories, they're causing this, Indy is a different bridge and will be crossed when fronted. Stop bringing the SNP, into this, it's not any there doing.

Try May, Boris, Gove, Mogg and Davies, these muppets took the So called Union to early election so they could do what want, and lost. Now they paid off the Flat earthers of NI to put them back in power. The said Flat earthers now want the same treatment as rUK, but only when it suits them. But hey, let's deflect this shambles onto #SNPbad and the yes voters. Good one.

this doesn't solely lie with the tories though does it.

 

there may well be in fighting between them causing havoc with negotiations but the DUP are also want their say/cut, then there's the SNP sticking their oar in, demanding their say/cut, theres businesses favourable towards it and others against it, there's the financial institutions wanting their tuppence worth.

these aren't all controlled by the tories

 

the ordinary people voted out, the money people/profiteers are hell bent against it.

Edited by reaths17
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Space Mackerel
8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Is there sure fire bets anywhere like? 

I dont like the EU. I made a decision and what will be will be. 

See if it had been a Remain vote I’d have been the same and just got on with my life just like I did when Scotland voted No. 

It seems people who voted Yes and Remain can’t seem to accept these simple things and spend their life LOL’ing and revelling in problems like spoilt bairns and wanting re-runs until they get the decision they want. 

Get over it. 

 

 

 

You don't like the EU? Big bad EU made you bananas straight? You like curly nana's? Tell us all why you don't like the EU and how it affects YOUR life in a major way please.

You're the one getting all biscuit arsed about all us laughing at yous now. I telt you all this would happen the day after the result.   

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1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Haven’t noticed them myself tbh. Seems more like remainers still crying over spilt milk. 

Any idea on the currency plans for Indy Scotland yet pal? 

 

There is only one group who are still moaning about and hoping that 'Brexit' doesn't happen, among this group there are some who don't want 'Brexit' being successful and among them there are even some who want the UK to 'crash & burn'.

Imagine being so bitter and spiteful about the result of a referendum that some want their own country to go down the tubes, staggering, utterly staggering.

But I'll bet you one thing, if 'Brexit' turns out to be a success they'll be quick enough to share in that success. 

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jack D and coke
Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

You don't like the EU? Big bad EU made you bananas straight? You like curly nana's? Tell us all why you don't like the EU and how it affects YOUR life in a major way please.

You're the one getting all biscuit arsed about all us laughing at yous now. I telt you all this would happen the day after the result.   

How many times have I to do this? I must’ve told you at least a dozen times! You never answer a single question I put to you or from anybody else on here for that matter. I’ve never seen you actually answer one single question it’s hilarious yet ive to keep giving my reasons when next you’ll label me a daily mail reader or a racist or now my bananas aren’t straight :facepalm: 

When will you realise that just because you think a certain way that doesn’t neccesarily make it so? 

You think you are the enlightened one and honestly mate it’s misguided. 

You’ll put more people off anything than ever talk them round because you just don’t listen to anybody else’s point of view. 

 

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

There is only one group who are still moaning about and hoping that 'Brexit' doesn't happen, among this group there are some who don't want 'Brexit' being successful and among them there are even some who want the UK to 'crash & burn'.

Imagine being so bitter and spiteful about the result of a referendum that some want their own country to go down the tubes, staggering, utterly staggering.

But I'll bet you one thing, if 'Brexit' turns out to be a success they'll be quick enough to share in that success. 

It’s absolutely pitiful behaviour and I believe unionists would’ve done the same had Scotland voted Yes. They would’ve caused no end of hassle and put barriers in the way. 

Bairns. 

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Thunderstruck
13 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Whilst not saying independence negotiations would be easy, I don't see how they would be as shambolic as the EU negotiations, given the two scenarios are completely different.  For example there is no single market/customs union issue or Irish Border.  But what about the Scots/English Border?  Well, have one.  Would it really make that much difference?  No it wouldn't.

 

Plus leaving a trading bloc is different from becoming an independent nation state, so International Law would no doubt come into play, perhaps the UN too, etc etc  As well as years of legal precedent.

 

Also Scotland leaving would have a clear idea of what it expected from leaving the UK based on international law and precedents.

 

We hear enough about the UK cutting itself adrift from its biggest trading partner and the damage that will be caused by introducing customs and tariffs. Now you suggest that a border between Scotland and England wouldn’t make very much difference. 

 

There is no dispute that England is Scotland’s biggest trading partner by a huge margin over EU and the rest of the World so the damage a hard border would cause would be very far from inconsequential. 

 

To give you some measure of the scale, fifteen percent of Scotland’s industrial output is reliant in just one arm of the military - the Royal Navy. That is a gap that would take some filling even if anyone had the foggiest notion as to what would fill it.  

 

The ability of Scotland to weather such a dislocation is questionable. The industrial base is relatively small with a disproportionately large public sector. 

 

I voted to remain in EU but have to acknowledge that the UK as a whole stands a better chance of prospering outside EU, irrespective of the degree of separation. 

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22 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Whilst not saying independence negotiations would be easy, I don't see how they would be as shambolic as the EU negotiations, given the two scenarios are completely different.  For example there is no single market/customs union issue or Irish Border.  But what about the Scots/English Border?  Well, have one.  Would it really make that much difference?  No it wouldn't.

 

Plus leaving a trading bloc is different from becoming an independent nation state, so International Law would no doubt come into play, perhaps the UN too, etc etc  As well as years of legal precedent.

 

Also Scotland leaving would have a clear idea of what it expected from leaving the UK based on international law and precedents.

 

Yes, but Scotland would need a trade agreement with the rest of the UK or do we revert to WTO rules and any agreement would have to start from scratch because there isn't one already, whereas the UK & the EU there is at least a framework to work with.

 

I agree with J & D that Westminster would make things as difficult as possible and put every obstacle they could in our way.

 

 

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Space Mackerel
14 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

How many times have I to do this? I must’ve told you at least a dozen times! You never answer a single question I put to you or from anybody else on here for that matter. I’ve never seen you actually answer one single question it’s hilarious yet ive to keep giving my reasons when next you’ll label me a daily mail reader or a racist or now my bananas aren’t straight :facepalm: 

When will you realise that just because you think a certain way that doesn’t neccesarily make it so? 

You think you are the enlightened one and honestly mate it’s misguided. 

You’ll put more people off anything than ever talk them round because you just don’t listen to anybody else’s point of view. 

 

 

You voted Leave because you assumed that Eastern European tradesmen were coming over here and undercutting you? 

I thought the arse of the economy fell out of the UK after the banking crisis though in 2008? I think you're pointing the finger at the wrong people for your woes.

 

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You voted Leave because you assumed that Eastern European tradesmen were coming over here and undercutting you? 

I thought the arse of the economy fell out of the UK after the banking crisis though in 2008? I think you're pointing the finger at the wrong people for your woes.

 

There you go again :facepalm: 

Cant wait to trot that line out. 

Ok let’s use you’re posting style, you’re anti English. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Yes, but Scotland would need a trade agreement with the rest of the UK or do we revert to WTO rules and any agreement would have to start from scratch because there isn't one already, whereas the UK & the EU there is at least a framework to work with.

 

I agree with J & D that Westminster would make things as difficult as possible and put every obstacle they could in our way.

 

 

 

If Brexit goes wrong then the UK will be trading using WTO rules for the forseeable.  So add an Indy Scotland to that list.  Westminbster may come it, but that wouldn't be in their interests either, or is Anglo-Scottish/UK-Scottish trade a one way process?

 

6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

We hear enough about the UK cutting itself adrift from its biggest trading partner and the damage that will be caused by introducing customs and tariffs. Now you suggest that a border between Scotland and England wouldn’t make very much difference. 

 

There is no dispute that England is Scotland’s biggest trading partner by a huge margin over EU and the rest of the World so the damage a hard border would cause would be very far from inconsequential. 

 

To give you some measure of the scale, fifteen percent of Scotland’s industrial output is reliant in just one arm of the military - the Royal Navy. That is a gap that would take some filling even if anyone had the foggiest notion as to what would fill it.  

 

The ability of Scotland to weather such a dislocation is questionable. The industrial base is relatively small with a disproportionately large public sector. 

 

I voted to remain in EU but have to acknowledge that the UK as a whole stands a better chance of prospering outside EU, irrespective of the degree of separation. 

 

I genuinely don't think it would, but if Scotland became independnet and part of the EU, would we need a hard border?  If they can achieve one with RoI why not Scotland?  As per my point above, trade between Scotland and rUK is a two way street, yes?  So important for rUK to still trade with Scotland?

 

I'm sure if indy was to happen, the govt would do an impact analysis?

 

I don't think Indy would mean an overnight improvement economically or socially, but think it would be a step in the right direction.

 

But back to Brexit...it's a shambles, innit?

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Space Mackerel
3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

There you go again :facepalm: 

Cant wait to trot that line out. 

Ok let’s use you’re posting style, you’re anti English. 

 

 

 

Half my family are English and my best mate from is from Yorkshire :lol:

 

So what were your reasons? You seem to flip flop or plays Devils Advocate when it comes to political discussions. 

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42 minutes ago, reaths17 said:

you increasingly confuse me, your saying that the bigger pooled power is better, yet you advocate more local smaller  power bases, seems a rather awkward contradiction..

police Scotland is the perfect example of the larger organisation losing its head up its own erse, and any control it once had. the EU has no control over it's self, there's so many different  groups fighting against/for their own agenda/differing problems, all undermining the whole it was never gonna work.[/quote]

 

The EU is controlled by 28 elected heads of government, has democratic accountability to an EU parliament, is kept in check by the ECJ and none of it's laws and regulations have any effect in the 28 until they are enacted by those national governments and parliaments and are subject to scrutiny before and after passage by those 28 states' legislatures, their courts, their governments and their people.

 

Police Scotland is an unelected autonomous body run by a ministerial appointment with limited parliamentary approval of that and audited and scrutinised by an a-political, unelected board appointed by a minister called the SPA - again with limited oversight.

 

The two are not similar at all. Police Scotland can be retained - but operational control needs to be broken up within and be far more accountable to local communities they serve. Local government was far more involved in police accountability through regional boards than the current model.  

 

My issue is democratic accountability - removing services from local accountability is not a great idea. Look how English education has developed since Baker removed local government from running it day to day. 

 

Power needs to be devolved to the lowest point but pooled at the upper end. It's not bad to have multiple levels of government. Democracy and scrutiny across the board is beneficial and we shouldn't adopt the view that less representatives is better.

 

42 minutes ago, reaths17 said:

the small can control the large, create rules and stick to them and there's nothing the large can do, this all falls down when mealy mouthed politicians with their compromises when they see a benefit for themselves on the offing get to work. the idea that they work FOR the people and they made manifesto promises to the people goes right out the window

 

But then you can only have majoritarian rule.  Politics is an art of compromise like life is. The best economies in Europe - those we seek repeatedly to want to copy - largely run on compromise systems of multiple parties forming governing coalitions to carry a broad policy agenda through and to govern for all concerns and interests.

 

What's bad about that?

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jack D and coke
5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Half my family are English and my best mate from is from Yorkshire :lol:

 

So what were your reasons? You seem to flip flop or plays Devils Advocate when it comes to political discussions. 

I could go through all your posts on this and you don’t actually say anything other than try belittle anybody who disagrees with you. 

You’re a proper tadger when it comes to politics. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

If Brexit goes wrong then the UK will be trading using WTO rules for the forseeable.  So add an Indy Scotland to that list.  Westminbster may come it, but that wouldn't be in their interests either, or is Anglo-Scottish/UK-Scottish trade a one way process?

 

 

I genuinely don't think it would, but if Scotland became independnet and part of the EU, would we need a hard border?  If they can achieve one with RoI why not Scotland?  As per my point above, trade between Scotland and rUK is a two way street, yes?  So important for rUK to still trade with Scotland?

 

I'm sure if indy was to happen, the govt would do an impact analysis?

 

I don't think Indy would mean an overnight improvement economically or socially, but think it would be a step in the right direction.

 

But back to Brexit...it's a shambles, innit?

 

If we Hard Brexit as a UK then there's a hard border with Ireland. If Scotland then left the UK and joined the EU, Scotland is then bound to the EU deal with the UK. And a hard border appears on the Solway and Tweed.

 

Now some nationalists apply the Faragist/Trumpian rhetoric of the end justifying all else. But people with half a brain should realise that such stuff is utterly impractical and would hurt Scotland's economy and people for some time.

 

This is at a national interest level. The nationalists need to drop independence for the period of Brexit. Remove it from the table and work for a Soft Brexit and with Unionists to that end. If a united Soft Brexit front could be achieved then there's hope the Hard Brexiteers can be ignored at Westminster. At present the Yes/No , Moderate/Corbynista, Liberal Referendum, Soft Tory v the Rest divisions are killing any hope of solving this issue when a solution is achievable based on a simple look at parliamentary arithematic!

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CavySlaveJambo
Just now, JamboX2 said:

 

If we Hard Brexit as a UK then there's a hard border with Ireland. If Scotland then left the UK and joined the EU, Scotland is then bound to the EU deal with the UK. And a hard border appears on the Solway and Tweed.

 

Now some nationalists apply the Faragist/Trumpian rhetoric of the end justifying all else. But people with half a brain should realise that such stuff is utterly impractical and would hurt Scotland's economy and people for some time.

 

This is at a national interest level. The nationalists need to drop independence for the period of Brexit. Remove it from the table and work for a Soft Brexit and with Unionists to that end. If a united Soft Brexit front could be achieved then there's hope the Hard Brexiteers can be ignored at Westminster. At present the Yes/No , Moderate/Corbynista, Liberal Referendum, Soft Tory v the Rest divisions are killing any hope of solving this issue when a solution is achievable based on a simple look at parliamentary arithematic!

Soft Brexit is pretty much the only workable solution to the Northern Ireland situation. 

 

Any Westminster government needs to be taking into account the needs of the whole UK not just a few. And that includes the Northern Ireland Situation (and sorry but there should not be an individual deal for them). 

 

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3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

This is at a national interest level. The nationalists need to drop independence for the period of Brexit. Remove it from the table and work for a Soft Brexit and with Unionists to that end. If a united Soft Brexit front could be achieved then there's hope the Hard Brexiteers can be ignored at Westminster. At present the Yes/No , Moderate/Corbynista, Liberal Referendum, Soft Tory v the Rest divisions are killing any hope of solving this issue when a solution is achievable based on a simple look at parliamentary arithematic!

 

I don't disagree that all soft brexit adherents should work together, genuinely don't.  Independence has been dropped, see shelving of indy ref, so over to the unionist parties to come together on this.

 

Looks like party allegience, especially in the case of the Tories, will prevail though.

 

If the country is more important than the party then they should split, forcing the brexiteers into UKIP and see how they get on from there.

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2 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

Soft Brexit is pretty much the only workable solution to the Northern Ireland situation. 

 

Any Westminster government needs to be taking into account the needs of the whole UK not just a few. And that includes the Northern Ireland Situation (and sorry but there should not be an individual deal for them). 

 

 

Or we simply reverse brexit and just stop and carry on as before.

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Space Mackerel
8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I could go through all your posts on this and you don’t actually say anything other than try belittle anybody who disagrees with you. 

You’re a proper tadger when it comes to politics. 

 

 

Im not disagreeing with anything. Im asking you why you voted Leave, something you've failed to disclose for 2 hours now. 

 

Just a couple of sentences, no need for your life story. :) Was it because you got spooked by the MSM about immigrants coming over here blowing themselves up and stealing your job? 

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Thunderstruck
12 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

If Brexit goes wrong then the UK will be trading using WTO rules for the forseeable.  So add an Indy Scotland to that list.  Westminbster may come it, but that wouldn't be in their interests either, or is Anglo-Scottish/UK-Scottish trade a one way process?

 

 

I genuinely don't think it would, but if Scotland became independnet and part of the EU, would we need a hard border?  If they can achieve one with RoI why not Scotland?  As per my point above, trade between Scotland and rUK is a two way street, yes?  So important for rUK to still trade with Scotland?

 

I'm sure if indy was to happen, the govt would do an impact analysis?

 

I don't think Indy would mean an overnight improvement economically or socially, but think it would be a step in the right direction.

 

But back to Brexit...it's a shambles, innit?

 

We are back to where this rabbit-hole started - what impact assessment did the Scottish Government undertake between 2012 and 2014. I wouldn’t count “back of a fag packet” estimations of mineral royalties and tax receipts as an impact assessment. 

 

Yes, Scotland may well go on to recover its economic position but there is no likelihood of that being a short process. Politics is a “jam today” process and nobody is getting far with long term promises. Lies maybe but not costed and planned promises. 

 

In both referendums (the parallels are stark), the nationalists played the greed and grievance card and I’m sure you are aware of what happens when the promises fall apart. Maybe the majority of Scots are so easily gulled. 

 

Yes, Brexit is a mess. I voted remain but happy to accept the outcome of the vote referendum as that was a democratic decision. Unfortunately, there are too many sniping or mischief-making on the sidelines - on both sides of the Channel. 

 

Most of the claims of the leavers were palpable nonsense but, with Brexit, it played to prejudices and succeeded - another lesson from history that was given a thorough ignoring. 

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jack D and coke
Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Im not disagreeing with anything. Im asking you why you voted Leave, something you've failed to disclose for 2 hours now. 

 

Just a couple of sentences, no need for your life story. :) Was it because you got spooked by the MSM about immigrants coming over here blowing themselves up and stealing your job? 

More belittling I see. 

Maybe if you laid off the cooking sherry you’d remember me telling you countless times in the past in pubs etc. Keep posting emojis and kidding on I haven’t ever mentioned reasons though. 

The EU as a trading block is a good thing I think we all agree on that. As it becomes more encompassing I don’t agree with a lot of it. Whether I was right or wrong matters not a jot now as the vote is in. 

Ever thought as you keep voting on the wrong side of these things mibbe it’s you that’s wrong?

 

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28 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

The EU is controlled by 28 elected heads of government, has democratic accountability to an EU parliament, is kept in check by the ECJ and none of it's laws and regulations have any effect in the 28 until they are enacted by those national governments and parliaments and are subject to scrutiny before and after passage by those 28 states' legislatures, their courts, their governments and their people.

 

Police Scotland is an unelected autonomous body run by a ministerial appointment with limited parliamentary approval of that and audited and scrutinised by an a-political, unelected board appointed by a minister called the SPA - again with limited oversight.

 

The two are not similar at all. Police Scotland can be retained - but operational control needs to be broken up within and be far more accountable to local communities they serve. Local government was far more involved in police accountability through regional boards than the current model.  

 

My issue is democratic accountability - removing services from local accountability is not a great idea. Look how English education has developed since Baker removed local government from running it day to day. 

 

Power needs to be devolved to the lowest point but pooled at the upper end. It's not bad to have multiple levels of government. Democracy and scrutiny across the board is beneficial and we shouldn't adopt the view that less representatives is better.

 

 

But then you can only have majoritarian rule.  Politics is an art of compromise like life is. The best economies in Europe - those we seek repeatedly to want to copy - largely run on compromise systems of multiple parties forming governing coalitions to carry a broad policy agenda through and to govern for all concerns and interests.

 

What's bad about that?

well at least their audited, unlike the EU.

 

when the pooled upper end hasn't a clue what all the christmas tree like lower level branches are up to and have lost control of the beaurocratic monster that they cant account for their finances, their comings and goings, you open yourself up to grave miss doings.

 

there are times when things get to big and become uncontrollable, the EU has whatever amount of members and all are sitting at their own steering wheel, their not working together, its about what's best for them, that's not pooling power.

 

the rule is not on a majority, the EU is generally run by Germany, with GB and France trying to get the same amount of say. the rest of the countries do the compromising as Germany generally rides roughshod over the rest.

 

the EU has been a bone of contention in politics in every member state from it's inception.......even Germany

 

 

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2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

I believe Scotland could support itself of course i do. But setting up a central bank from scratch wouldn’t be as simple as you’re suggesting. 

And anyway if it’s as simple as that why was Salmond offering us the utter insanity of BOE and currency union? That hasn’t ever been totally accepted as complete lunacy by most SNP voters for me. 

It would have been temporary until Scotland set up it's own currency or just paralleled, it's no big deal. And as you've seen people say whatever helps their agenda good or bad.

BTW, it's never easy but it's certainly not the impossible dream made out by anti Indy campaigners either, but that's by the by, this is brexit and it should've been quite easy. Pull out and then negotiate trade deals. Simple. Cake and eat it spring to mind, and quite sure Scotland and rUK will want the same. Brexit first (That sounds familiar), tho'

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Space Mackerel
32 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

More belittling I see. 

Maybe if you laid off the cooking sherry you’d remember me telling you countless times in the past in pubs etc. Keep posting emojis and kidding on I haven’t ever mentioned reasons though. 

The EU as a trading block is a good thing I think we all agree on that. As it becomes more encompassing I don’t agree with a lot of it. Whether I was right or wrong matters not a jot now as the vote is in. 

Ever thought as you keep voting on the wrong side of these things mibbe it’s you that’s wrong?

 

 

I remember quite clearly your reasons, lets just leave it at that. Its a pity you can't be honest on here as you are with me :)

 

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1 hour ago, reaths17 said:

this doesn't solely lie with the tories though does it.

 

there may well be in fighting between them causing havoc with negotiations but the DUP are also want their say/cut, then there's the SNP sticking their oar in, demanding their say/cut, theres businesses favourable towards it and others against it, there's the financial institutions wanting their tuppence worth.

these aren't all controlled by the tories

 

the ordinary people voted out, the money people/profiteers are hell bent against it.

Boris, Gove, Wetherspoons guy, Mogg, are ordinary people?

A bunch of chancers. 

They should just be honest I tell the 4 countries what's what and stop blaming the EU. They didn't expect an out win, now they're Fecked, and all because they wanted to silence Tory brexiteers.

 

The SNP whether you like it or not are the elected government at Holyrood and they should be putting their oar in, Scotland voted remain. Big style!

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2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Boris, Gove, Wetherspoons guy, Mogg, are ordinary people?

A bunch of chancers. 

They should just be honest I tell the 4 countries what's what and stop blaming the EU. They didn't expect an out win, now they're Fecked, and all because they wanted to silence Tory brexiteers.

 

The SNP whether you like it or not are the elected government at Holyrood and they should be putting their oar in, Scotland voted remain. Big style!

More Scots voted for Brexit than voted for the SNP.

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jack D and coke
4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I remember quite clearly your reasons, lets just leave it at that. Its a pity you can't be honest on here as you are with me :)

 

What would be the point? You’d deflect, label me, post a meme and some emojis and think you’d won another argument. 

You’ve never bettered anyone on this board that I’ve seen or in any discussion you’re incapable of debate. 

You think winding people up all day every day is some kind of win. It’s bizarre. 

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

We are back to where this rabbit-hole started - what impact assessment did the Scottish Government undertake between 2012 and 2014. I wouldn’t count “back of a fag packet” estimations of mineral royalties and tax receipts as an impact assessment. 

 

Yes, Scotland may well go on to recover its economic position but there is no likelihood of that being a short process. Politics is a “jam today” process and nobody is getting far with long term promises. Lies maybe but not costed and planned promises. 

 

In both referendums (the parallels are stark), the nationalists played the greed and grievance card and I’m sure you are aware of what happens when the promises fall apart. Maybe the majority of Scots are so easily gulled. 

 

Yes, Brexit is a mess. I voted remain but happy to accept the outcome of the vote referendum as that was a democratic decision. Unfortunately, there are too many sniping or mischief-making on the sidelines - on both sides of the Channel. 

 

Most of the claims of the leavers were palpable nonsense but, with Brexit, it played to prejudices and succeeded - another lesson from history that was given a thorough ignoring. 

Was it Democratic? No EU citizens were permitted to vote.

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5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Boris, Gove, Wetherspoons guy, Mogg, are ordinary people?

A bunch of chancers. 

They should just be honest I tell the 4 countries what's what and stop blaming the EU. They didn't expect an out win, now they're Fecked, and all because they wanted to silence Tory brexiteers.

 

The SNP whether you like it or not are the elected government at Holyrood and they should be putting their oar in, Scotland voted remain. Big style!

Scotland is not independent, it voted as part of the UK the majority said out, their quite entitled to have their say and assist in what the people of the UK(which we are a part of) voted for but have no right to demand anything. sturgeon and her devotees have sat on their hands in governance of Scotland and have become a waste of space

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