Manchester Arena

[Rudy T]

It does seem that all the scum that has travelled to Syria and similar places should be kept in internment camps indefinitely without trial. We can't continue to allow these scumbags to hide among us.

 

Post Brexit we will have the powers to enforce this.

The issue with that is you then have a collection of radicalised potential terrorist grouped together I shudder to think what plan they could concoct in that environment. Unless your planing on solitary confinement, then you have to decide whether they are released or not. I would personally prefer they just weren't allowed back in to the UK but then that comes with issues also.

[Maroon Sailor]

Guys, this isn't helping. What sort of reply is that to give?

Engage with the point made. Argue against it. Explain why you don't agree.

It's obvious he is bringing his politics in to it

 

Does he not realise the manpower and resources surveillance takes and he'll be the first to moan about cuts

[Zico]

It's obvious he is bringing his politics in to it

 

Does he not realise the manpower and resources surveillance takes and he'll be the first to moan about cuts

This. It deserved nothing but contempt. And I doubt he has the first clue about the number of terrorist plots foiled each year, the number of people under surveillance or the impossibility of monitoring the millions of British citizens who travel to Turkey each year.

[Bowmans_Boot]

With that in mind, and with comments on this thread about 'shoot-to-kill', would you be happy if the 200 or so known extremists who have been to training camps (not sure if that is the actual number), or the people who are taking so much time and resources from our intelligence services with round the clock surveillance, would you be happy if they were to 'disappear', or to befall some kind of 'nasty accident?'

 

I know some people would think that it would be some kind of recruiting drive for isis, to start fighting fire with fire, terror with even more extreme terror, and that it shouldn't be the done thing in a civil and just society, but when the very things you hold dear, that you take for granted, like a trip to a concert or theatre, are under threat, the lives of your children and loved ones are under threat, you can't just keep going through the same cycle as before, because it isn't working.

 

And, if you were some kind of potential jihadi, would you perhaps not think twice about accessing those extremist sites, planning trips to known terror camps, if the people you knew who were also doing these things were suddenly dissapearing?

 

Given that they are willing to die for their "cause", I doubt that would make much difference.

[redm]

At what point do we stop doing nothing and actually take action?

 

I don't know what the required action is. But I do know candlelit vigils and hashtags aren't the answer. The longer we avoid adult conversation on the topic, the more likely a dangerous knee jerk breaking point is.

 

The left need to understand that shouting Racist, Sexist, Islamaphobic and Homophobic isn't an argument. They appear to have learnt nothing from Brexit and Trump.

 

We all need to come together and meet somewhere in the middle and have a proper discussion. This simply cannot go on.

I doubt anyone disagrees with you, in principle anyway, and I don't see one person suggesting that vigils or platitudes are the way forward either. Unless you're talking extreme right stuff about internment camps and bumping people off or hammering Muslims as a whole, most people tend to sit on a similar part of the fence regardless of their political leanings as far as I can tell, so having a go at "the left" isn't helpful or rational either. Most people aren't viewing this from extreme positions.

 

I think the majority of people are roughly in the same place. They know something needs to happen but they haven't a clue what that something is. The differences seem to lie mostly in whether we just do 'something' or 'anything' just to be seen to act or whether we continue trying to find a response or solution that stands a chance of having an effect.

[redm]

Given that they are willing to die for their "cause", I doubt that would make much difference.

Spotted this earlier [emoji85]

 

[Homme]

Spotted this earlier [emoji85]

 

Yep. Let's bring back the death penalty for suicide bombers.

[Adam Murray]

Given that they are willing to die for their "cause", I doubt that would make much difference.

 

 

Let them die for their cause early then, before they can cause any harm to any innocents.

[JJ1984]

Yep. Let's bring back the death penalty for suicide bombers.

 

Or anyone who assisted the *****. 

[Sten Guns]

On the subject of outrageous tweets.

 

We have this feminist letting us know that it's not Radical Islamic terrorism at play here. It's sexism.

 

gif hoster

[Homme]

Here was us thinking it was terrorism all along

 

Sexism

[Rocco_Jambo]

Yep. Let's bring back the death penalty for suicide bombers.

He's demanded its return for those convicted of terrorism offences. Terrorism offences don't just include being a suicide bomber.

[Say What Again]

He's demanded its return for those convicted of terrorism offences. Terrorism offences don't just include being a suicide bomber.

 

She actually, but yep. I read the article on the back of the tweet posted and not once does she mention suicide bombers. "Terrorist crimes" she said.

[redm]

I saw that, and she's far from the only one to point out that a venue full of women dancing, singing provocative lyrics, wearing whatever they like and possibly also drinking probably made it a more attractive target to extremists.

 

It's really not that crazy a claim.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-targeting-of-women-and-girls-in-manchester-may-have-been-intentional/2017/05/23/e87d3f42-3fb8-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.198ee6ff13dc

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-it-matters-that-the-manchester-attack-targeted-girls-w483855

[frankblack]

The issue with that is you then have a collection of radicalised potential terrorist grouped together I shudder to think what plan they could concoct in that environment. Unless your planing on solitary confinement, then you have to decide whether they are released or not. I would personally prefer they just weren't allowed back in to the UK but then that comes with issues also.

 

I would prefer a way to bar these people from returning or leaving in the first place.  Failing that never allow them back into the general population.

[Sten Guns]

My word.

 

Not a chance I'm clicking those bat shit crazy links.

 

It wasn't a sexist attack FFS.

 

Using this attack to peddle a feminist agenda is ****ing outrageous. Deflecting from the actual issue. Disgusting stuff.

[Homme]

I saw that, and she's far from the only one to point out that a venue full of women dancing, singing provocative lyrics, wearing whatever they like and possibly also drinking probably made it a more attractive target to extremists.

 

It's really not that crazy a claim.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-targeting-of-women-and-girls-in-manchester-may-have-been-intentional/2017/05/23/e87d3f42-3fb8-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.198ee6ff13dc

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-it-matters-that-the-manchester-attack-targeted-girls-w483855

Maiming women and children generates further shock towards an already despicable crime. This and the likelihood of success / location probably played a far greater role than the deliberate targeting of females. It's not like suicide missions on this scale before have followed a pattern of specifically going after the fairer sex.

[elvoys]

As a sociological study the ability for a whole society to meekly revert to the Newspeak of 'hope not hate' and 'solidarity' in the face of such a clearly fascistic worldview is utterly incredible. These words mean absolutely nothing other than ' don't pipe up about the glaringly obvious, meekly accept little girls being slaughtered as new normal else we will shame you as a bigot - and heres a poem or a rendition of imagine to make you feel virtuous about it'.

 

Its not even the death throws of a dying society which jarrs, it is the cuddly, vapid embracing of it and mutual affirmation which is stunning.

 

Would there have been one single placard saying 'stand up against Islamism' yesterday or in any of the coming days from this culture of 'solidarity'.

[Zico]

I saw that, and she's far from the only one to point out that a venue full of women dancing, singing provocative lyrics, wearing whatever they like and possibly also drinking probably made it a more attractive target to extremists.

 

It's really not that crazy a claim.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-targeting-of-women-and-girls-in-manchester-may-have-been-intentional/2017/05/23/e87d3f42-3fb8-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.198ee6ff13dc

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-it-matters-that-the-manchester-attack-targeted-girls-w483855

Those articles provide context. And while twitter is not the medium for nuance, Islamic misogyny would be a much better and more accurate phrase than sexism.

[Adam Murray]

People will go to some very obscure lenghts to call these kind of attacks anything but what they actually are.

 

Very strange behaviour.

[redm]

Batshit crazy links? It's the Washington Post and Rolling Stone, not Feminism Weekly.

 

They're not peddling or pushing anything, they're looking at causes and motivations, just like you are.

 

It's interesting to note that Islam is open to criticism (by men) for treating women as second class citizens when it suits the argument, but any mention of similar themes by women leaves you very angry.

 

IS have claimed responsibility for this attack. Take a look at how they treat women, and especially how they view women who behave in a typically westernised way. That'll tell you all you need to know about how they would view an Ariana Grande concert and its attendees.

[Governor Tarkin]

On the subject of outrageous tweets.

 

We have this feminist letting us know that it's not Radical Islamic terrorism at play here. It's sexism.

 

 

To be fair to her, whilst clearly not the primary motive, she probably has something of a point.

 

Hard line Islam doesn't seem to be a big fan of females in general. An ideology which permits honour killings of it's own young women for whatever spurious reason isn't likely to take a favourable view of a concert by a 'highly sexualised' artist aimed primarily at young girls.

 

The wee lassies at the concert were probably viewed as debauched western whores or some such abomination - ergo fair game.

[elvoys]

Maiming women and children generates further shock towards an already despicable crime. This and the likelihood of success / location probably played a far greater role than the deliberate targeting of females. It's not like suicide missions on this scale before have followed a pattern of specifically going after the fairer sex.

Young girls embracing 'promiscuity' and gays being the likely audience members. Don't expect our masters at the Beeb to point this out anytime soon.

[Rudy T]

I doubt anyone disagrees with you, in principle anyway, and I don't see one person suggesting that vigils or platitudes are the way forward either. Unless you're talking extreme right stuff about internment camps and bumping people off or hammering Muslims as a whole, most people tend to sit on a similar part of the fence regardless of their political leanings as far as I can tell, so having a go at "the left" isn't helpful or rational either. Most people aren't viewing this from extreme positions.

 

I think the majority of people are roughly in the same place. They know something needs to happen but they haven't a clue what that something is. The differences seem to lie mostly in whether we just do 'something' or 'anything' just to be seen to act or whether we continue trying to find a response or solution that stands a chance of having an effect.

It's been mentioned on this thread a few times but I think what's concerning many is this 'known to the police' mantra that seems to follow a lot of these atrocities. With the latest also apparently visiting Syria I think that has to be a starting point.

 

What did the police or security forces know about him? Why after a stint in Syria wasn't he more closely checked. If it's a resource and/or financial issue then somehow that has to be addressed. How many others do they know about that are going unchecked.

 

The Muslim communities have a part to play its also become apparent from a number of interviews I've seen that there's a fear in these communities to speak up.

 

There has to be open communications between governments to combat it. It's a world wide issue so they need to share ideas and Intel. These lunatics are getting to Syria and the likes somehow so we must be able to keep tabs on them.

[Seymour M Hersh]

I saw that, and she's far from the only one to point out that a venue full of women dancing, singing provocative lyrics, wearing whatever they like and possibly also drinking probably made it a more attractive target to extremists.

 

It's really not that crazy a claim.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-targeting-of-women-and-girls-in-manchester-may-have-been-intentional/2017/05/23/e87d3f42-3fb8-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.198ee6ff13dc

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-it-matters-that-the-manchester-attack-targeted-girls-w483855

 

There is an article in the Telegraph by Neil McCormack saying something along those lines.

[Adam Murray]

As a sociological study the ability for a whole society to meekly revert to the Newspeak of 'hope not hate' and 'solidarity' in the face of such a clearly fascistic worldview is utterly incredible. These words mean absolutely nothing other than ' don't pipe up about the glaringly obvious, meekly accept little girls being slaughtered as new normal else we will shame you as a bigot - and heres a poem or a rendition of imagine to make you feel virtuous about it'.

 

Its not even the death throws of a dying society which jarrs, it is the cuddly, vapid embracing of it and mutual affirmation which is stunning.

 

Would there have been one single placard saying 'stand up against Islamism' yesterday or in any of the coming days from this culture of 'solidarity'.

 

 

Once again spoken very well, but not what some want to hear.

[redm]

Those articles provide context. And while twitter is not the medium for nuance, Islamic misogyny would be a much better and more accurate phrase than sexism.

Quite. There's every reason to assume this theme may have played a part in choosing of the targets. It's not the whole story, but it's probably a part of it.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Heard an imam on five live's phone in this morning and have to say I felt very sorry for him. Was taking pelters from angry callers but is clearly someone who is trying his best to fight radicalisation and extremism as far as he remit in Manchester allows.

 

He has my sympathy. By the sounds of things a decent bloke getting peppered by attempts to blame him by association. Makes you realise how all this affects ordinary Muslims.

[Sten Guns]

Quite. There's every reason to assume this theme may have played a part in choosing of the targets. It's not the whole story, but it's probably a part of it.

It's not even 10% of the story. In fact it's not even 1%.

 

These savage ****s don't give a toss.

 

When your first port of call is to tweet about SEXISM it's an absolute outrage.

 

Deflect deflect deflect.

 

N.b I don't mean the websites themselves are crazy, I mean the agenda those links were peddling.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Quite. There's every reason to assume this theme may have played a part in choosing of the targets. It's not the whole story, but it's probably a part of it.

 

Softer the better red and what's softer than a bubble gum pop concert full of mums & daughters (and they hit pay dirt if there are gay males in attendance). The poster you replied to is correct in describing as islamic misogyny as opposed to sexism though.

[redm]

There is an article in the Telegraph by Neil McCormack saying something along those lines.

Yeah there's been a good few, they links above were just the first I plucked from the internet. It's not a theme exclusive to feminist commentators anyway, far from it. The Telegraph being an excellent example of the "far from it" part!

[i8hibsh]

On the subject of outrageous tweets.

 

We have this feminist letting us know that it's not Radical Islamic terrorism at play here. It's sexism.

 

gif hoster

 

 

Does she not realise it is her who is being sexist ffs. How was it a 'woman's concert'? 

 

And there was certainly males in the audience.

[Sten Guns]

Does she not realise it is her who is being sexist ffs. How was it a 'woman's concert'?

 

And there was certainly males in the audience.

Embarrassing. For such a short tweet there are countless holes to absolute destroy in it.

 

Ridiculous.

 

As I've long been saying, society continually fail to honestly describe the motivations and delusions that drive these monsters.

[Governor Tarkin]

It wasn't a sexist attack FFS.

 

Using this attack to peddle a feminist agenda is ******* outrageous. Deflecting from the actual issue. Disgusting stuff.

Clearly not, but to state that Islam is a rampantly sexist ideology isn't deflecting from the actual issue.

[Sten Guns]

Clearly not, but to state that Islam is a rampantly sexist ideology isn't deflecting from the actual issue.

Strangely you don't see many feminists up in arms when it comes to Islam.

[Homme]

Young girls embracing 'promiscuity' and gays being the likely audience members. Don't expect our masters at the Beeb to point this out anytime soon.

Definitely likely audience members.

 

However attacks on buses (random victims), tubes (random victims), football stadia (majority male), restaurants (random victims), Nice promenade (random victims), Berlin Market (random victims) and the Bataclan (probably majority male given the gig) don't seem to suggest they have history of targeting females, young girls or gays in this way.

 

What you have more chance of finding out is that the Manchester Arena had been identified as a location with a very high chance of success and it wouldn't have mattered if it was Ariana Grande or Snoop Dogg rapping about his bitches and ho's that happened to be playing.

[redm]

It's not even 10% of the story. In fact it's not even 1%.

 

These savage ****s don't give a toss.

 

When your first port of call is to tweet about SEXISM it's an absolute outrage.

 

Deflect deflect deflect.

 

N.b I don't mean the websites themselves are crazy, I mean the agenda those links were peddling.

Women are part of the story and that's just a fact rather than an agenda or anything else. If you don't think the presence of large numbers of women and gay people had anything to do with target selection then that's up to you, but many people will disagree.

 

Also, I'd go with the term misogyny rather than sexism, but that's me. I don't think it's helpful to get hung up on terminology when it's pretty obvious what she meant and what the context is.

 

You're definitely taking out your anger on the wrong people.

[Rudy T]

Heard an imam on five live's phone in this morning and have to say I felt very sorry for him. Was taking pelters from angry callers but is clearly someone who is trying his best to fight radicalisation and extremism as far as he remit in Manchester allows.

 

He has my sympathy. By the sounds of things a decent bloke getting peppered by attempts to blame him by association. Makes you realise how all this affects ordinary Muslims.

As opposed to him sitting in a studio taking pelters we should be encouraging more of his peers to some forward and help resolve the problem they must be closer to the answers than we currently are without their help.

 

Killing innocent civilians creates a level of anger killing 8 year olds takes it too a new level and fuels more hatred eventually that boils over and acts of stupidity follow.

[Sten Guns]

Women are part of the story and that's just a fact rather than an agenda or anything else. If you don't think the presence of large numbers of women and gay people had anything to do with target selection then that's up to you, but many people will disagree.

 

Also, I'd go with the term misogyny rather than sexism, but that's me. I don't think it's helpful to get hung up on terminology when it's pretty obvious what she meant and what the context is.

 

You're definitely taking out your anger on the wrong people.

I don't think it's helpful to go down the misogyny route and run with a tiny part of the story, whilst blatantly ignoring the real story and the real motivations.

 

In doing so, you're peddling an agenda.

[Governor Tarkin]

The poster you replied to is correct in describing as islamic misogyny as opposed to sexism though.

One stems directly from the other but aye, mysogeny is probably a better word in this instance.

[i8hibsh]

Embarrassing. For such a short tweet there are countless holes to absolute destroy in it.

 

Ridiculous.

 

As I've long been saying, society continually fail to honestly describe the motivations and delusions that drive these monsters.

 

Can you imagine if I went to a Lionel Richie concert and described it as a 'man's concert'?

 

Feminism really is a cancer.  Ffs, not even the vast majority of women support it. 

 

I am reading and hearing peope saying stuff like "Her poor mother" when talking about the children who were murdered here.  Just **** off please. Just **** off! What about their 'poor dad'.

[Peebo]

I saw that, and she's far from the only one to point out that a venue full of women dancing, singing provocative lyrics, wearing whatever they like and possibly also drinking probably made it a more attractive target to extremists.

 

It's really not that crazy a claim.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-targeting-of-women-and-girls-in-manchester-may-have-been-intentional/2017/05/23/e87d3f42-3fb8-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.198ee6ff13dc

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-it-matters-that-the-manchester-attack-targeted-girls-w483855

While it is possible that this event was targeted as it was the height of offensiveness to nutjob Islamic fanatics (i.e. young females having fun), I suspect the event was more likely targeted as it was a large crowd largely made up of a portion of society considered to be its weakest (young females).

 

That may itself sound sexist, I realise. However, reality is, if I am looking for opportunity of least resistance, an Ariana Grande concert is probably a more attractive target than a Man Utd game or Simple Minds concert.

[Sten Guns]

While it is possible that this event was targeted as it was the height of offensiveness to nutjob Islamic fanatics (i.e. young females having fun), I suspect the event was more likely targeted as it was a large crowd largely made up of a portion of society considered to be its weakest (young females).

 

That may itself sound sexist, I realise. However, reality is, if I am looking for opportunity of least resistance, an Ariana Grande concert is probably a more attractive target than a Man Utd game or Simple Minds concert.

Stop being sensible.

 

It was a sexist attack.

[redm]

It's been mentioned on this thread a few times but I think what's concerning many is this 'known to the police' mantra that seems to follow a lot of these atrocities. With the latest also apparently visiting Syria I think that has to be a starting point.

 

What did the police or security forces know about him? Why after a stint in Syria wasn't he more closely checked. If it's a resource and/or financial issue then somehow that has to be addressed. How many others do they know about that are going unchecked.

 

The Muslim communities have a part to play its also become apparent from a number of interviews I've seen that there's a fear in these communities to speak up.

 

There has to be open communications between governments to combat it. It's a world wide issue so they need to share ideas and Intel. These lunatics are getting to Syria and the likes somehow so we must be able to keep tabs on them.

Yep, that's definitely a worry. The ineffective tracking or monitoring of people who visit Syria (or similar IS heavy places) surely has to be addressed. I don't know if there's any sort of reasonable excuse for people to go there for other reasons i.e. humanitarian efforts or whatever. I also don't know how it works with people going to/from/via Turkey. What I do know is that it isn't straightforward.

 

Re: Muslim communities, there's some sort of assumption that they all must know more than non-Muslims do, and that's just not the case. There's probably the occasional random individual here or there who might have vague suspicions but otherwise we're essentially expecting completely normal, law-abiding people to achieve more than our own intelligence services and with none of the resources. People who have exactly the same fears as us about IS and terrorism, for that matter.

 

We need to be careful how we talk about this - there's no point in tarring the whole Muslim community with the same brush and isolating them. That'll hardly give them confidence or motivation to speak up on the very very rare occurrences that they might feel they have something to share. What does it actually mean when we say "Muslims need to do more" and what are the realistic expectations of what they can achieve? Are they fair expectations? That sort of thing.

[i8hibsh]

I saw that, and she's far from the only one to point out that a venue full of women dancing, singing provocative lyrics, wearing whatever they like and possibly also drinking probably made it a more attractive target to extremists.

 

It's really not that crazy a claim.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-targeting-of-women-and-girls-in-manchester-may-have-been-intentional/2017/05/23/e87d3f42-3fb8-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.198ee6ff13dc

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/why-it-matters-that-the-manchester-attack-targeted-girls-w483855

 

OK, so how many terrorist attacks (many) and how many of these' targets' have been hit (very few)?  It seems you are just looking for a reason to suit your (feminist) agenda.  I would go out on a limb here and say more men are murdered in these attacks than women.  When we have another terrorist attack in the next month or so (wherever it will be next) I will go out on a limb (again) and say it will be anything, anybody and anywhere.  It was not a sexist attack redm it was an ISLAMIC attack.  I know there are people that just can't say those two words together as they are so scared of taking time out form virtue signaling but that is what it was.  

[Homme]

OK, so how many terrorist attacks (many) and how many of these' targets' have been hit (very few)? It seems you are just looking for a reason to suit your (feminist) agenda. I would go out on a limb here and say more men are murdered in these attacks than women. When we have another terrorist attack in the next month or so (wherever it will be next) I will go out on a limb (again) and say it will be anything, anybody and anywhere. It was not a sexist attack redm it was an ISLAMIC attack. I know there are people that just can't say those two words together as they are so scared of taking time out form virtue signaling but that is what it was.

See my post at the bottom of the last page. Said the exact same thing.

[redm]

I don't think it's helpful to go down the misogyny route and run with a tiny part of the story, whilst blatantly ignoring the real story and the real motivations.

 

In doing so, you're peddling an agenda.

I'm peddling nothing of the sort. You brought it up and I'm trying to add context to that element of the discussion. Nobody's trying to use it to dominate a story or take away from any other element, so you can get off your high horse and re-divert your seethe back to terrorists rather than concentrating your energies on shouting down those who call out misogyny.

[i8hibsh]

See my post at the bottom of the last page. Said the exact same thing.

 

Ah good man. Just came on this thread as I was purposely avoiding it.  But guess what, I failed.

[Governor Tarkin]

Stop being sensible.

 

It was a sexist attack.

Agreed that Peebo's post is a sensible one, but I think your dislike of the femenist agenda is clouding your judgement.

Of course it wasn't a sexist attack, but you can't deny that it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that blowing up a hall full of western harlots wasn't a bit of a Brucie bonus for these twisted *******s.

[Rudy T]

Yep, that's definitely a worry. The ineffective tracking or monitoring of people who visit Syria (or similar IS heavy places) surely has to be addressed. I don't know if there's any sort of reasonable excuse for people to go there for other reasons i.e. humanitarian efforts or whatever. I also don't know how it works with people going to/from/via Turkey. What I do know is that it isn't straightforward.

 

Re: Muslim communities, there's some sort of assumption that they all must know more than non-Muslims do, and that's just not the case. There's probably the occasional random individual here or there who might have vague suspicions but otherwise we're essentially expecting completely normal, law-abiding people to achieve more than our own intelligence services and with none of the resources. People who have exactly the same fears as us about IS and terrorism, for that matter.

 

We need to be careful how we talk about this - there's no point in tarring the whole Muslim community with the same brush and isolating them. That'll hardly give them confidence or motivation to speak up on the very very rare occurrences that they might feel they have something to share. What does it actually mean when we say "Muslims need to do more" and what are the realistic expectations of what they can achieve? Are they fair expectations? That sort of thing.

I'm probably not putting this into the correct context but the last thing I'm advocating is isolating the Muslim communities, we must create open communications. While you may be right when you say they don't know much more than any other individual they are definitely closer to them than those outside and there has to be certain patterns of behaviour common to these lunatics. Perhaps we could work with them to identify these. For example someone must be aware that an individual is suddenly not present at the mosque so where are they, clearly 99% of the time it'll be for legitimate reasons but any tiny bit of help in stopping this at root has to be welcomed.