Even More SNP Nonsense

[Pans Jambo]

There is an ill wind politically all across Europe

Nationalism is a real problem in most countries- I'm intrigued as to why our nationalism is seen as good, when everyone else's is seen as bad?

Why is it NATIONALISM when you just want your country to be responsible for running itself? If its such a problem I have yet to hear you shout for a united states of europe!

[reaths17]

WE didnt vote for them. Middle England did. WE soundly rejected them at the ballot box.

 

Scotland did vote to remain but round 2 is on its way. Tick Tock.

i didn't vote for the tories but that's democracy for you.

I didn't vote for the SNP, west coast scotland did, bring your clock on.

 

and again "we're part of a union"

[Pans Jambo]

their not interested or thinking about economy, its all Westminster/London this and that.

 

their last attempt at anything to do with economy was "use the bank of England pound", which they were told to spin on it.

I think sharing Sterling was an error but that was the SNP's vision (I'm not an SNP supporter, they are currently the biggest platform to drive indy forward).

 

Scots pound but. We are probably too poor, wee and irrelevant to even try that eh?

[Pans Jambo]

i didn't vote for the tories but that's democracy for you.

I didn't vote for the SNP, west coast scotland did, bring your clock on.

 

and again "we're part of a union"

Eh, are we not debating NOT being part of the union though?

 

And I am only looking at my COUNTRIES voting (That Scotland, you know the one with the blue & white flag mate. Which as far I as know is actually a country).

[reaths17]

I believe 'the deficit' is a crock of lies and misinformation. What's it supposed to be? ?12Bn or something? We pay around ?4Bn P/A on interest payments on loans we didnt make. Our whisky exports (25% of all food & drink exports in the UK BTW) are not counted as Scottish exports as they leave from English ports so theres another 3 or 4 ?Bn.

Probably a lot more hiding under in the closet too.

I think Scotland would thrive, why wouldnt it? The examples you gave being Greece and Poland just show the amount of disrespect you give your own country (sorry, region).

yeah, yeah we know your all  believers in conspiracy theories. elvis is in your chipshop eating deep fried mars bars, keeping the economy flying along

[Pans Jambo]

yeah, yeah we know your all  believers in conspiracy theories. elvis is in your chipshop eating deep fried mars bars, keeping the economy flying along

I like Elvis

[reaths17]

Eh, are we not debating NOT being part of the union though?

 

And I am only looking at my COUNTRIES voting (That Scotland, you know the one with the blue & white flag mate. Which as far I as know is actually a country).

your debating voting results, latest news, their in, the separatists lost.

[doctor jambo]

Why is it NATIONALISM when you just want your country to be responsible for running itself? If its such a problem I have yet to hear you shout for a united states of europe!

is that not what nationalism is though?

Your own country first?

United states of Europe? I am a "remainer" and a Europhile

I like being Scottish in Europe , and I like being Scottish in UK

I love being a Scot, and I am patriotic

I already see us as a country, and different to Wales, yet feel kin with them, as I do with the English ( my father is English)

My kids are all proud Scots- but not in the parochial, bitter sense that seems to be somewhat sadly prevalent

We are NOT defined by being British

BUT being British does not detract from what we are

[Pans Jambo]

your debating voting results, latest news, their in, the separatists lost.

Ding Ding! Round 2.

[reaths17]

I think sharing Sterling was an error but that was the SNP's vision (I'm not an SNP supporter, they are currently the biggest platform to drive indy forward).

 

Scots pound but. We are probably too poor, wee and irrelevant to even try that eh?

we weren't getting the choice and swapping London to Brussels isn't independence no matter how much and loud you shout it.

[Pans Jambo]

is that not what nationalism is though?

Your own country first?

United states of Europe? I am a "remainer" and a Europhile

I like being Scottish in Europe , and I like being Scottish in UK

I love being a Scot, and I am patriotic

I already see us as a country, and different to Wales, yet feel kin with them, as I do with the English ( my father is English)

My kids are all proud Scots- but not in the parochial, bitter sense that seems to be somewhat sadly prevalent

We are NOT defined by being British

BUT being British does not detract from what we are

Its a pigeon hole.

 

If it's your own country first then...

 

I'm branded a 'Scottish Nationalist Separatist' which by default then makes you a 'British Nationalist Unionist'.

 

(Am I doing this right)? 

[doctor jambo]

Its a pigeon hole.

 

If it's your own country first then...

 

I'm branded a 'Scottish Nationalist Separatist' which by default then makes you a 'British Nationalist Unionist'.

 

(Am I doing this right)? 

I regard the term Unionist as pejorative .

[Pans Jambo]

we weren't getting the choice and swapping London to Brussels isn't independence no matter how much and loud you shout it.

Well having 95% powers available enabling you to make your own decisions is a bit better than the 30% or so we have now would you not agree? 

[Pans Jambo]

I regard the term Unionist as pejorative .

Yeah I agree with that on nationalist as well.

 

Yoon sounds so much better for you.

[doctor jambo]

Yeah I agree with that on nationalist as well.

 

Yoon sounds so much better for you.

Natzi any better?

[Pans Jambo]

Natzi any better?

Aw C'mon DJ, just a wee joke. 

 

If you want to remain part of a Union and you are a British nationalist (often referred to as a Brit/Nat) then by default you must be a Yoon. Or a Natzi Yoon?

 

Its all pejorative IMO. Pigeon holes eh!

[doctor jambo]

Aw C'mon DJ, just a wee joke. 

 

If you want to remain part of a Union and you are a British nationalist (often referred to as a Brit/Nat) then by default you must be a Yoon. Or a Natzi Yoon?

 

Its all pejorative IMO. Pigeon holes eh!

I don't see myself as either a Unionist or  British Nationalist........

I don't support Rangers and I'm not a skin head

[Thunderstruck]

Yeah I agree with that on nationalist as well.

 

Yoon sounds so much better for you.

I suppose "Yoon" is only to be expected from the easily led but I suppose they are only aping their Grand Panjandrum.

 

Shouldn't we expect better from politicians who aspire to high office and a statesman-like role?

 

This was Mr Salmond last week:

 

Now, I won?t call it the fake facts media, or the fake media, or the alternative facts media, because that would be to quote the President of the United States, and you don?t have to be a racist or a misogynist to know when stories are being distorted.

 

So I like to call it in Scotland the yoon media. That?s the element of the Scottish press who interpret any story, any issue, and makes it an attempt to either attack or discredit the SNP.

 

I hope he isn't depending of forging stronger bonds wth Washington any time soon.

 

If anyone sees this as Fake News, watch this:

 

[Hasselhoff]

Our whisky exports (25% of all food & drink exports in the UK BTW) are not counted as Scottish exports as they leave from English ports so theres another 3 or 4 ?Bn.

 

 

That is one of the lies Wings had published on his site which, even though it was pointed out to be untrue, he hasn't corrected. 

 

https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/meme-busting-whisky-and-the-non-existent-export-duty/

 

Worth getting your facts right when making such a big decision. In the event that campaigning does begin for indyref2 from both sides, inconvenient truths like this will be exposed and Nats will end up with egg on their face. Why do some Nationalists feel the need to lie in order to try and achieve their goal? If Indy is so good, it should sell itself - shouldn't need to try and hoodwink people into thinking they are going to be better off and able to avoid austerity. 

[jambos are go!]

The SNP are between a rock and hard place. They are under pressure from theie membership to call another referendum regardless of the chances of winning. That is unlikely to be a time of their leaderships choosing. If they go ahead and lose then independence will be of the table for a couple of generations or forever.

 

Sturgeon will be praying that the UK comes up with a deal that she can claim provides adequate though flawed access to the Single Market and allow their grievance politics to persist until the SNP can win more support for independence. That should split the SNP apart.

 

As an arch Unionist another referendum cant come quick enough. Closely followed by a SNP climbdown to accept Brexit terms to avoid having to call another Referendum. Worst outcome a Tory led coalition at Holyrood which is no longer unthinkable.

[Sraman]

Because Scotland has no real economic vision that would prevent a problem for those of us who pay tax.

I am not "tied to Westminster"

however out "vast natural resources" are not, and have not for some years actually met the economic needs of "the people" hence the deficit.

Once there is a clear plan that demonstrates NOT that Scotland could survive on its own (of course it can) but do BETTER on its own  then I'd vote for it

I want to do MORE than merely "survive"

Greece is independent- its not doing them a whole lot of good.

Nor Poland, or any number of small countries in the EU- we would be far more likely to end like them than  a Norway

Or is there an SNP war chest?

What is the plan to plug the deficit , or create a surplus?

 

 

Could I ask what the UK's economic vision is?

[doctor jambo]

Could I ask what the UK's economic vision is?

Honestly, I think it is to become a low tax economy.

There is a reason the big tech's are moving into London as their choice of Euro headquarters.

Its either to shelter from a Euro zone tax storm hitting them , or a promise from UK as yet unspoken.

I suspect the vision is to be a location to "off shore" headquarters for companies to trade with Europe and the rest of the world whilst still being a mere hop to Germany and France, but away from punitive taxation and an Italian banking crisis

[Pans Jambo]

Could I ask what the UK's economic vision is?

?2Tn of debt and rising?

Leave their biggest trading partner?

Privatise the NHS?

Cut back on everything that isnt for the wealthy?

Tax green energy to the hilt?

Get the Chinese to build the worlds most expensive nuclear power station ever thus pushing us further into debt?

Invest even more in nice nuclear weapons?

Screw the pension pot and raise retirement age to 70?

Try their hardest to parity with the Euro & USD?

[Sraman]

Honestly, I think it is to become a low tax economy.

There is a reason the big tech's are moving into London as their choice of Euro headquarters.

Its either to shelter from a Euro zone tax storm hitting them , or a promise from UK as yet unspoken.

I suspect the vision is to be a location to "off shore" headquarters for companies to trade with Europe and the rest of the world whilst still being a mere hop to Germany and France, but away from punitive taxation and an Italian banking crisis

 

 

You think??

 

So thinking that's what it is is enough for you to remain with the UK but you want a cast iron economic vision from the Independence camp?

 

With this in mind could you now tell me what the UK Governments economic vision is? Last I heard we were going to survive by selling delicious cakes to the EU.

[doctor jambo]

You think??

 

So thinking that's what it is is enough for you to remain with the UK but you want a cast iron economic vision from the Independence camp?

 

With this in mind could you now tell me what the UK Governments economic vision is? Last I heard we were going to survive by selling delicious cakes to the EU.

I 'd rather they made some attempt to lure me to the "yes" side.

At least at present whilst I have seen my living standards eroded since 2008 I'm still not too bad,

but I'm worried that with independence the gloves will come off

-we are already the highest taxed part of the UK

Someone has to pay for the independence dream..... and it wont be the Glasgow mob who would see it realised......

[Space Mackerel]

as the separatist movement is heavily based in the Strathclyde region, we in Edinburgh would be marginalised and lookin to mummy fish in the west.

 

the clear majority voted to remain part of the union and not your independent pish.

 

will you ever have some valid point to your independence, we all ask questions on here "what your point is" and get the same avoidance of the questions

74% of Edinburgh also voted to to stay in the EU

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

74% of Edinburgh also voted to to stay in the EU

 

 

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Are there figures anywhere on the breakdown?    Interested to see the NE response as its dominated by the fishing industry.  Genuine question.

[Space Mackerel]

Are there figures anywhere on the breakdown? Interested to see the NE response as its dominated by the fishing industry. Genuine question.

The only thing that's having a break down is me with daft questions like that. [emoji53]

What's so hard to understand?

 

 

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[deesidejambo]

The only thing that's having a break down is me with daft questions like that. [emoji53]

What's so hard to understand?

 

 

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I asked politely if you have the percentage figures for the Brexit vote across Scotland as you already quoted the Edinburgh data?   It was a genuine question politely asked and you reply with your usual snide remarks.

 

I'll find them myself.

[Space Mackerel]

I asked politely if you have the percentage figures for the Brexit vote across Scotland as you already quoted the Edinburgh data? It was a genuine question politely asked and you reply with your usual snide remarks.

 

I'll find them myself.

Fill yer boots, could've just asked.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

Annabelle Goldie backed many an SNP budget between 07-11.

I'm sure the Torys would've got something they wanted out of it, after all, the Scottish Parliament is designed to have more or less a coalition government after every election is it not?

 

 

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[Arnold Rothstein]

Fill yer boots, could've just asked.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

 

 

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You mean exactly as he did? You have trouble interpreting tone. Not the first example of you reading something different than what was clearly intended.

[Stuart Lyon]

Wee nippy's latest take on Brexit

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39116115

 

Whatever will she come up with next?

[jambos are go!]

Wee nippy's latest take on Brexit

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39116115

 

Whatever will she come up with next?

She says there has been 20 years of progress.  Interesting phrase setting the scene for a climbdown some might say.  She should try telling a few posters on here never mind the rest of the Union haters.

[JamboX2]

Really? With the parliament being in Edinburgh as well.

 

Valid point?

 

How about I believe Scotlands folk should look after Scotlands interests and should not have to ask to be allowed to do anything to some unelected parliament that hardly anyone up her voted for some 400 odd miles away that really doesn't give a shit about us other than our tax take, our natural resources and our cannon fodder young men for their illegal wars. Oh, and somewhere to store all that nice nuclear arsenal.

 

Whats your valid point for remaining? Battered housewife syndrome?

So I am assuming you will not be hoping for Scotland in the EU?

 

If you think MPs for Kent don't give two hoots, what about MEPs for Freiburg, Poznan, Budapest and Seville...

[JamboX2]

I'm sure the Torys would've got something they wanted out of it, after all, the Scottish Parliament is designed to have more or less a coalition government after every election is it not?

 

Kind of. It's designed to create a parliament of minoroties. As is any PR system.

 

The Tories got some things they wanted: council tax freeze, more police etc. But then the point here is the SNP have bought Tory votes. Is that not pretty much what the SNP attack the Liberals and Labour for over the referendum?

 

In effect, had it not been for a Tory party in Scotland Salmond may have lost power a lot earlier than he did and for different reasons than he did. But then where does the "we don't vote with or work with Tories" line go?

[AlphonseCapone]

So I am assuming you will not be hoping for Scotland in the EU?

 

If you think MPs for Kent don't give two hoots, what about MEPs for Freiburg, Poznan, Budapest and Seville...

So what's your personal position exactly jambox2? Being someone who voted Yes and Remain.

[Pans Jambo]

So I am assuming you will not be hoping for Scotland in the EU?

 

If you think MPs for Kent don't give two hoots, what about MEPs for Freiburg, Poznan, Budapest and Seville...

TBH im not that fussed if we are in or out of EU but if we are Independent and in then its 95% powers in Scotland and 5% to the EU but right now its 30% powers in Scotland and 70% to Westminster so... 30% or 95%???

[JamboX2]

So what's your personal position exactly jambox2? Being someone who voted Yes and Remain.

That to make such arguments in support of a pro-EU indy Scotland is nonsense on stilts Alphonse.

 

With such a view no Union is worth it. Ask a Shetlander, he'll tell you he doesn't think Edinburgh gives two hoots about hospital or school provision in Lerwick and nor does London. Is that a reason for Shetlandic independence or a reason for varied levels and lawyers of democratic power?

 

I think the latter.

 

If Scotland desires independence that is fine. But there will be high degrees of political integration in these isles over whatever we deem needs to be shared in common interest and with the EU.

 

Scotland and Scots may not always come first but that has to be understood in terms of the way in which those decisions are made by Scottish representatives in tandem with other institutions and nations.

 

Many people on here will be very disappointed of Scotland gets independence and much of what they've wanted control over is still limited by collective decision making beyond Scotland.

[JamboX2]

TBH im not that fussed if we are in or out of EU but if we are Independent and in then its 95% powers in Scotland and 5% to the EU but right now its 30% powers in Scotland and 70% to Westminster so... 30% or 95%???

Dunno where you're getting those figures but I'd dispute them. The Scotland Act only limits powers not devolved. Anything else is exercised here. EU treaties take powers away: so agriculture is devolved but run in Brussells anyway.

 

Scotland has a much, much more powerful parliament than you care to see. Once you add in repatriated powers (a sweetner for Brexit?! Tories love divide and rule after all) it's even stronger with VAT, fisheries, the social chapter, elements of employment and equalities law.

 

But at least you're honest enough to say you aren't fussed. Independence over all other considerations is fine by me if you want to believe that is best.

[AlphonseCapone]

That to make such arguments in support of a pro-EU indy Scotland is nonsense on stilts Alphonse.

 

With such a view no Union is worth it. Ask a Shetlander, he'll tell you he doesn't think Edinburgh gives two hoots about hospital or school provision in Lerwick and nor does London. Is that a reason for Shetlandic independence or a reason for varied levels and lawyers of democratic power?

 

I think the latter.

 

If Scotland desires independence that is fine. But there will be high degrees of political integration in these isles over whatever we deem needs to be shared in common interest and with the EU.

 

Scotland and Scots may not always come first but that has to be understood in terms of the way in which those decisions are made by Scottish representatives in tandem with other institutions and nations.

 

Many people on here will be very disappointed of Scotland gets independence and much of what they've wanted control over is still limited by collective decision making beyond Scotland.

That's mainly all fair enough.

 

But I'm interested in your personal thoughts, do you think an independent Scotland should not go for EU membership? In the event of independence, as a remain voter would you not be tempted with the idea of getting back in if it's an option for Scotland?

 

Personally I think I'd prefer EFTA rather than full membership.

[reaths17]

74% of Edinburgh also voted to to stay in the EU

 

 

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and what relevance does that have to the post you quoted ?

 

yet again you avoid any valid point put to you by waffling about something different.

 

waffle,waffle,waffle as boring as freedom and as irrelevant in this SNP crusade

[JamboX2]

That's mainly all fair enough.

 

But I'm interested in your personal thoughts, do you think an independent Scotland should not go for EU membership? In the event of independence, as a remain voter would you not be tempted with the idea of getting back in if it's an option for Scotland?

 

Personally I think I'd prefer EFTA rather than full membership.

No. I think the situation will have progressed too far re-Brexit. If we join the EU then we would be bound to deal with the UK on the terms the 27 agreed upon for non-single market membership free trade. That could seriously harm Scotland given the 80% figure on trade with rUK.

 

At that stage I think you'd probably have to enter into EFTA - a bespoke UK deal for us and unrestricted single market access.

 

That, I think will soon be the SNP option for independence. I think it's the best fudge open to us if we opt to go with independence. But I do not think that independence may be worth the upheaval in that eventuality and rather getting repatriated EU powers direct to Holyrood would be a much better and more productive use of time.

 

That won't sit well with the die hard brigade, but there are non-independence options and opportunities to be gotten of Scottish politicians wake up a bit to the other options beyond Yes/No. Indeed, open to all devolved parts of the UK.

[Boris]

Many people on here will be very disappointed of Scotland gets independence and much of what they've wanted control over is still limited by collective decision making beyond Scotland.

At least Scotland would be treated as an equal within the European and have the right to vote and veto things. What does it get with Westminster?

[deesidejambo]

At least Scotland would be treated as an equal within the European and have the right to vote and veto things. What does it get with Westminster?

The fact that Scotland could veto is one reason why Scotland won't be admitted to EU without giving up control of its fishing grounds.

 

Spain will ensure they get access

[AlphonseCapone]

No. I think the situation will have progressed too far re-Brexit. If we join the EU then we would be bound to deal with the UK on the terms the 27 agreed upon for non-single market membership free trade. That could seriously harm Scotland given the 80% figure on trade with rUK.

 

At that stage I think you'd probably have to enter into EFTA - a bespoke UK deal for us and unrestricted single market access.

 

That, I think will soon be the SNP option for independence. I think it's the best fudge open to us if we opt to go with independence. But I do not think that independence may be worth the upheaval in that eventuality and rather getting repatriated EU powers direct to Holyrood would be a much better and more productive use of time.

 

That won't sit well with the die hard brigade, but there are non-independence options and opportunities to be gotten of Scottish politicians wake up a bit to the other options beyond Yes/No. Indeed, open to all devolved parts of the UK.

good post, don't really disagree.

 

I'll be keeping a close on eye on what Westminster does with the powers coming back that they've said would come to Scotland.

[JamboX2]

At least Scotland would be treated as an equal within the European and have the right to vote and veto things. What does it get with Westminster?

But the EU is not a nation. It's a supranational union of nations. Scotland in the UK has MPs who represent it's people on the same level and with the same rights as anyother MP. It has a powerful devolved parliament to mitigate a democratic deficit.

 

You can't view the EU and UK in the same light.

 

Also, because some EU nations (whisper it - including Britain) did not like it when a majority of nations wanted something ine could still veto it the Commission moved to Qualified Majority Voting on many maters. That is voting weighted on population size. Scotland will obviously face a disadvantage there and equally its proportion of MEPs at Brussels will be smaller than its proportion of MPs at Westminster.

 

These in themselves are not reasons to say independence is garbage but it should be food for thought that these democratic deficit arguments are occasionally multiplied at an EU level. Again, that's a choice to be made and considered in a future referendum.

[Boris]

No. I think the situation will have progressed too far re-Brexit. If we join the EU then we would be bound to deal with the UK on the terms the 27 agreed upon for non-single market membership free trade. That could seriously harm Scotland given the 80% figure on trade with rUK.

 

 

In what way?  Not being smart, I just don't get why it would significantlyharm trade.

 

rUK exports are mainly services, financial I would assume.  If Scotland were independent and in the EU, might firms in London repatriate to Edinburgh, for example, rather than Frankfurt or Paris?  

 

Other exports include agriculture, water, electricity - would rUK turn their noses up at that?

 

Would they stop drinking Scotch Whisky, Loch Fyne Salmon etc?

 

Manufacturing exports are part of supply chains to rUK, would they stop using them?  There may be tariffs, there may be tariffs elsewhere? Isn't it easier to source the goods locally, so to speak, than from half way around the world?

 

Equally, is trade between RoI and the UK going to be significantly damaged?

 

I'm not saying it would be plain sailing, but I'm not as doom and gloom about it.  Also, given that our trade with rUK may well have EU markets , surely Brexit will have an effect on those, so we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

Also, if rUK were to deliberatly snub our exports out of spite, are they the sort of people we want to be in union with?

[Boris]

But the EU is not a nation. It's a supranational union of nations. Scotland in the UK has MPs who represent it's people on the same level and with the same rights as anyother MP. It has a powerful devolved parliament to mitigate a democratic deficit.

 

You can't view the EU and UK in the same light.

 

Also, because some EU nations (whisper it - including Britain) did not like it when a majority of nations wanted something ine could still veto it the Commission moved to Qualified Majority Voting on many maters. That is voting weighted on population size. Scotland will obviously face a disadvantage there and equally its proportion of MEPs at Brussels will be smaller than its proportion of MPs at Westminster.

 

These in themselves are not reasons to say independence is garbage but it should be food for thought that these democratic deficit arguments are occasionally multiplied at an EU level. Again, that's a choice to be made and considered in a future referendum.

 

Are you really trying to defend the Westminster system?  It's completely unrepresentative (See Scotland for a start!), ans as a result the Govt can do as it pleases due to its majority despite only getting 35% of the vote.

 

Yes, Holyrood can mitigate some things, but perhaps importantly not others.

 

Regards the EU, you presuppose that Scotland would automatically be at odds with its European colleagues?  And they would still retain a veto in certain matters.

[jambo lodge]

Are you really trying to defend the Westminster system?  It's completely unrepresentative (See Scotland for a start!), ans as a result the Govt can do as it pleases due to its majority despite only getting 35% of the vote.

 

Yes, Holyrood can mitigate some things, but perhaps importantly not others.

 

Regards the EU, you presuppose that Scotland would automatically be at odds with its European colleagues?  And they would still retain a veto in certain matters.

 

Nonsense once again, Scotland has if anything had more than its fair share of influence over Westminster in recent years. Its inly the demise of labour and the new cabal of SNP members in parliament that is fuelling this nonsense of a democratic deficit. Most Labour governments have relied completely on the Scottish influence at Westminster with many Scots sitting around the cabinet table.

 

How many Scots will hold influence in Brussels...........zero,