Even More SNP Nonsense

[jambos are go!]

Scottish MPs of every party were utterly vital and complicit in blocking early intervention in Syria to end Assads war on his own people and the human catastrophe that followed.. it would 100% not have been blocked without the overwhelming support of Scottish MPs.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Are you really trying to defend the Westminster system?  It's completely unrepresentative (See Scotland for a start!), ans as a result the Govt can do as it pleases due to its majority despite only getting 35% of the vote.

 

Yes, Holyrood can mitigate some things, but perhaps importantly not others.

 

Regards the EU, you presuppose that Scotland would automatically be at odds with its European colleagues?  And they would still retain a veto in certain matters.

 

Scotland's population is about eight per cent of the UK population.

 

The SNP has about eight per cent of sitting MPs in parliament.

 

What exactly are you looking for?

[Boris]

Try looking at the % of vote the SNP got in Scotland compared to the number of seats.

 

While Scotland may have roughly the correct number of MPs, the SNP is massively over represented.

[Boris]

Nonsense once again, Scotland has if anything had more than its fair share of influence over Westminster in recent years. Its inly the demise of labour and the new cabal of SNP members in parliament that is fuelling this nonsense of a democratic deficit. Most Labour governments have relied completely on the Scottish influence at Westminster with many Scots sitting around the cabinet table.

 

How many Scots will hold influence in Brussels...........zero,

 

Apart from a couple of times, the need for scots MPs for a winning party to hold a majority is a fallacy.

[jambo lodge]

Apart from a couple of times, the need for scots MPs for a winning party to hold a majority is a fallacy.

 

Doesn't say much about the quality of Scottish MP's then does it. Certainly the rabble that are representing us at the moment are a complete bunch of clowns who think its all a Scotland v England game. 

[Boris]

Doesn't say much about the quality of Scottish MP's then does it. Certainly the rabble that are representing us at the moment are a complete bunch of clowns who think its all a Scotland v England game.

 

Not sure how it reflects the quality of Scottish MPs, more a comment regards the numbers involved in the make up of Westminster.

[reaths17]

In what way?  Not being smart, I just don't get why it would significantlyharm trade.

 

rUK exports are mainly services, financial I would assume.  If Scotland were independent and in the EU, might firms in London repatriate to Edinburgh, for example, rather than Frankfurt or Paris?  

 

Other exports include agriculture, water, electricity - would rUK turn their noses up at that?

 

Would they stop drinking Scotch Whisky, Loch Fyne Salmon etc?

 

Manufacturing exports are part of supply chains to rUK, would they stop using them?  There may be tariffs, there may be tariffs elsewhere? Isn't it easier to source the goods locally , so to speak, than from half way around the world?

 

Equally, is trade between RoI and the UK going to be significantly damaged?

 

I'm not saying it would be plain sailing, but I'm not as doom and gloom about it.  Also, given that our trade with rUK may well have EU markets , surely Brexit will have an effect on those, so we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

Also, if rUK were to deliberatly snub our exports out of spite, are they the sort of people we want to be in union with?

locally like berwick, preferably without the customs tax added.

 

seems a bit conflicting that brexit would affect EU trade but the UK would be spiteful if their market was affected.

 

how would markets with the UK not be affected with EU imposed tarrifs, why wouldn't they source trade elsewhere without tarrifs, markets that we wouldn't have as good a shot at.

 

our main market is the UK, 80%, outwith the EU we would have freedom to negotiate new markets without losing our main one. not sure what percentage of the 20% left is  outwith the EU but i'm sure we could make up the small difference easily.

 

they say that the cost of living will drop 30% without EU tarrifs.

 

a brexit union looks a goer to me.

[jambo lodge]

Not sure how it reflects the quality of Scottish MPs, more a comment regards the numbers involved in the make up of Westminster.

 

There has been 18 General Elections in the UK since 1945. In 12 of these elections Scotland voted with the party who came into power. 66% of the time Scotland has had a government that it chose, that my friend is democracy in action.

[Boris]

There has been 18 General Elections in the UK since 1945. In 12 of these elections Scotland voted with the party who came into power. 66% of the time Scotland has had a government that it chose, that my friend is democracy in action.

I wasn't disputing that. My point was that more often than not it doesn't matter who Scotland votes for. Scots seats simply increase the government majority.

[JamboX2]

Are you really trying to defend the Westminster system? It's completely unrepresentative (See Scotland for a start!), ans as a result the Govt can do as it pleases due to its majority despite only getting 35% of the vote.

What in Brussels will change that? The Commission will have 1 Scot to represent its views. The Parliament, 16-18 MEPs to represent its views. That's a small level of influence. So it's hardly going to produce fairer Scottish representation.

 

Scotland since 1979 has produced (off the top of my head):

 

2 x Foreign Secretaries

2 x Chancellors of the Exchequer (3 if you include Lamont)

2 x Prime Ministers

3 x Defence Secretaries

4 x Trade and Industry Secretaries

2 x International Development Secretaries

1 x Environment Minister

3 x Transport Secretaries

1 x Home Secretary

 

How is that not influential?

 

Equally 35% majorities are electoral system failures. Like 56 SNP/Nationalist MPs on what 49.5% of the total Scottish vote. That can be changed.

 

Yes, Holyrood can mitigate some things, but perhaps importantly not others.

 

Same with the EU. Little control over CAP or CFP but you can mitigate it. What's your point? Somethings are better operated on a broader or narrower basis.

 

Regards the EU, you presuppose that Scotland would automatically be at odds with its European colleagues? And they would still retain a veto in certain matters.

No I'm rebutting your point. But bearing in mind 2 things:

 

1. The EU is committed to "ever closer union"

2. The SNP wanted in 2014 the UK's opt-outs

3. The SNP are not wanting ever closer union (nor do many Scots for that).

 

Given the take it or leave it position the Commission boxes it self into, can you care to tell me why you think getting these opt-outs will be easy done?

 

I'm pro-EU Boris. But I think you're letting your starting point be "independence in Europe" rather than an assessment of reality

[JamboX2]

I wasn't disputing that. My point was that more often than not it doesn't matter who Scotland votes for. Scots seats simply increase the government majority.

Same applies to Glasgow or Aberdeen or Edinburgh at Holyrood. Same applies to Yorkshire. Or to Belgium at Strasbourg.

.

[JamboX2]

In what way? Not being smart, I just don't get why it would significantlyharm trade.

 

rUK exports are mainly services, financial I would assume. If Scotland were independent and in the EU, might firms in London repatriate to Edinburgh, for example, rather than Frankfurt or Paris?

 

Perhaps. But for cross-border services trade you'd need the UK to have the "passport" to trade into a Single Market country. Hence banks splitting operations in preparation for Brexit.

 

Otherwise there are tariff walls and restrictions to trading on a free market basis.

 

Other exports include agriculture, water, electricity - would rUK turn their noses up at that?

 

Would they stop drinking Scotch Whisky, Loch Fyne Salmon etc?

Frankly Boris they wont. But this may be under a 20% WTO tariff which increases costs and decreases sales with that impacting domestic growth. As with Trump wanting people to buy American- is Mrs Smith of Manchester going to buy Scottish Salmon at ?10.00 or an equivalent she can buy cheaper which isn't hit by that Tariff, say Alaskan salmon?

 

Manufacturing exports are part of supply chains to rUK, would they stop using them? There may be tariffs, there may be tariffs elsewhere? Isn't it easier to source the goods locally, so to speak, than from half way around the world?

 

Not if a Scottish product costs more than a free trade American counterpart, no.

 

We drive japanese cars and have german tvs. What is local these days? What does it matter?

 

It's about best access keeping your sell on costs low.

 

Equally, is trade between RoI and the UK going to be significantly damaged?

 

In some areas yes. Thatis inescapable because the rules on each nation will no longer be equal and the UK will have to deal with ROI on the basis of its deal with the whole EU. Vice versa as with Scotland if independent.

 

I'm not saying it would be plain sailing, but I'm not as doom and gloom about it. Also, given that our trade with rUK may well have EU markets , surely Brexit will have an effect on those, so we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

Also, if rUK were to deliberatly snub our exports out of spite, are they the sort of people we want to be in union with?

Who said spite? Economic reality.

 

You need to comprehend that this is a block based game. The deal reached with the EU will be THE terms of trade with the UK and EU as a WHOLE. We go for indy, we MUST adhere to the rules of the game for the EU and are bound by those rules.

 

This Brexit move is the greatest act of protectionism and anti-free trade moves in British history. We are leaving a market of 600 million. Scotland is reliant for 80% of her trade with a trading block leaving the EU. This whole game is like playing with matches around an economic equivalent of a gunpowder keg.

[Boris]

Same applies to Glasgow or Aberdeen or Edinburgh at Holyrood. Same applies to Yorkshire. Or to Belgium at Strasbourg.

.

 

Granted, but when you see 1979-1997, and then 2010 - date you have an incredibly ideological government enacting policy affeting Scotland without a care for the populus.  I get that's how our sytem works and one has to accept that, up to a point.

 

If anything it highlights, to me at least, the fractured nature of the British political system.  I'd be all for the UK if there was federalism (proper, mind!) and some for of PR to elect a UK government, but as this is increasingly unlikely I am minded to see independence as the best option.

[Boris]

Perhaps. But for cross-border services trade you'd need the UK to have the "passport" to trade into a Single Market country. Hence banks splitting operations in preparation for Brexit.

 

Otherwise there are tariff walls and restrictions to trading on a free market basis.

 

 

Frankly Boris they wont. But this may be under a 20% WTO tariff which increases costs and decreases sales with that impacting domestic growth. As with Trump wanting people to buy American- is Mrs Smith of Manchester going to buy Scottish Salmon at ?10.00 or an equivalent she can buy cheaper which isn't hit by that Tariff, say Alaskan salmon?

 

 

Not if a Scottish product costs more than a free trade American counterpart, no.

 

We drive japanese cars and have german tvs. What is local these days? What does it matter?

 

It's about best access keeping your sell on costs low.

 

 

In some areas yes. Thatis inescapable because the rules on each nation will no longer be equal and the UK will have to deal with ROI on the basis of its deal with the whole EU. Vice versa as with Scotland if independent.

 

 

Who said spite? Economic reality.

 

You need to comprehend that this is a block based game. The deal reached with the EU will be THE terms of trade with the UK and EU as a WHOLE. We go for indy, we MUST adhere to the rules of the game for the EU and are bound by those rules.

 

This Brexit move is the greatest act of protectionism and anti-free trade moves in British history. We are leaving a market of 600 million. Scotland is reliant for 80% of her trade with a trading block leaving the EU. This whole game is like playing with matches around an economic equivalent of a gunpowder keg.

 

So if rUK is going to trade with the EU, and a deal will be struck which, if Scotland is independent and in the EU (or EFTA) will trade on the same terms.

 

Is a WTO tariff added to Salmon going to make it more expensive than Alaskan Salmon when you factor in shipping etc?  I don't know.  Same with aspects of supply chains.  Is rUK going to get great trade deals with other nations?  Who knows.

 

I agree that the whole thing (Brexit, possible Indy) is a powderkeg.  Are we best served in the UK or with the EU and the trade deals with other markets it already has?  Our trade with rUK may fall, it may not.  We may also see a diversification of our economy.  Is it right that we should be reliant on one market?

 

There are so many unanswered questions, primarily as a result of Brexit, that makes it a leap of faith in either direction.

[Sraman]

"Scotland is reliant for 80% of her trade with a trading block leaving the EU."

 

Or:

 

The rUK are reliant on 80% of Scottish exports. Let's face it, the rUK don't just buy 80% of our exported goods and services out of the goodness of their heart then put them all in a massive landfill site. And, Mrs Smith from Manchester will continue to buy her Birds Eye Cod in batter from Iceland.

[Space Mackerel]

I'm off to the game now, I'll just leave this here for the too wee, too poor, too stupid, too racist brigade.

 

 

 

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[JamboX2]

None of them are coutries who have handed over their Sovereignty by treaty or Act of Union, therefore are not comparable to Scotland.

What does that matter? A country is no more a legitimate grouping of people and views as a city.

[DanishTam10]

None of them are coutries who have handed over their Sovereignty by treaty or Act of Union, therefore are not comparable to Scotland.

 

are you refering to 1707?

[Geoff the Mince]

I'm off to the game now, I'll just leave this here for the too wee, too poor, too stupid, too racist brigade.

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What about the "fairytale brigade"

[doctor jambo]

Malta is a nation of shadow companies, near zero tax rates and state sanctioned tax avoidance . As I said previously I suspect this is where uk is going. Which is fine , the people do well from it. But Scotland could not exist independently next to an England that did that for obvious reasons

[Pans Jambo]

Wonder what they will say about this one?

 

https://youtu.be/8VOuSN2j5iU

[pablo]

Wonder what they will say about this one?

 

Who is they Pans Jambo?

[Hasselhoff]

Wonder what they will say about this one?

 

If "they" means the Yoons, it is a fact we all acknowledge already. Scotland put in a lot of money through oil to the UK from the 80's onwards. Only recently has that surplus been reversed but only the SNP are making a big deal about it. We aren't subsidised, we just receive more money than the rest of the UK due to our awkward land layout.

 

This "too wee, too poor, too stupid" mantra, first used by John Swinney is classic paranoia from nationalists.

 

Didn't notice you acknowledge the correction on the missing whisky tax revenue that you claimed Scotland would be entitled to if Indy. Still think it is true?

[JamboX2]

So if rUK is going to trade with the EU, and a deal will be struck which, if Scotland is independent and in the EU (or EFTA) will trade on the same terms.

Yes. EFTA is different. Google that. But an Indy Scotland in the EU can only trade with non-EU nations on terms all can agree.

 

Is a WTO tariff added to Salmon going to make it more expensive than Alaskan Salmon when you factor in shipping etc? I don't know. Same with aspects of supply chains. Is rUK going to get great trade deals with other nations? Who knows.

Who knows but as I say, your cheap japanese tv made in Tokyo is equivalent to your British one because of free trade and 0 tariffs.

 

I agree that the whole thing (Brexit, possible Indy) is a powderkeg. Are we best served in the UK or with the EU and the trade deals with other markets it already has? Our trade with rUK may fall, it may not. We may also see a diversification of our economy. Is it right that we should be reliant on one market?

 

There are so many unanswered questions, primarily as a result of Brexit, that makes it a leap of faith in either direction.

No we shouldn't be reliant on one market and yes I'm all for diversification of the economy but I'd rather see that occur in the economic block that at present best serves us.

[JamboX2]

None of them are coutries who have handed over their Sovereignty by treaty or Act of Union, therefore are not comparable to Scotland.

That is a red herring. A democratic deficit is a democratic deficit where ever it exists.

[Boris]

Yes. EFTA is different. Google that. But an Indy Scotland in the EU can only trade with non-EU nations on terms all can agree.

 

 

I thought that as an EFTA member, and with access to the EU single market, members could trade with other nations based on the EU agreements, or EEA agreements.

[Arnold Rothstein]

Wonder what they will say about this one?

 

Can someone please confirm when we're allowed to believe lying, thieving Torries and when they should be ignored? Thanks muchly.

[doctor jambo]

My council tax "re-brand " has come through

band F house - increase in 12.5% this  year, before the increase of up to 3% the council can apply

Thanks SNP

+ failing to pass on the income tax band rejig

I don't mind the Council tax thing, TBF.

but it is a warning shot as to where they stand - tax and spend babies YAY

[Pans Jambo]

If "they" means the Yoons, it is a fact we all acknowledge already. Scotland put in a lot of money through oil to the UK from the 80's onwards. Only recently has that surplus been reversed but only the SNP are making a big deal about it. We aren't subsidised, we just receive more money than the rest of the UK due to our awkward land layout.

 

This "too wee, too poor, too stupid" mantra, first used by John Swinney is classic paranoia from nationalists.

 

Didn't notice you acknowledge the correction on the missing whisky tax revenue that you claimed Scotland would be entitled to if Indy. Still think it is true?

Yip

& a lot more besides.

[Pans Jambo]

If "they" means the Yoons, it is a fact we all acknowledge already. Scotland put in a lot of money through oil to the UK from the 80's onwards. Only recently has that surplus been reversed but only the SNP are making a big deal about it. We aren't subsidised, we just receive more money than the rest of the UK due to our awkward land layout.

 

This "too wee, too poor, too stupid" mantra, first used by John Swinney is classic paranoia from nationalists.

 

Didn't notice you acknowledge the correction on the missing whisky tax revenue that you claimed Scotland would be entitled to if Indy. Still think it is true?

& BTW, since the 70's!

Paid for most of our Nuclear arsenal

The M25

The war against Argentina for the Falklands in 82 & the invasion of Iraq

The Channel Tunnel

& lots & lots of duck ponds

[JamboX2]

I thought that as an EFTA member, and with access to the EU single market, members could trade with other nations based on the EU agreements, or EEA agreements.

EFTA allows you single market access but the freedom to operate externally as you wish.

[doctor jambo]

& BTW, since the 70's!

Paid for most of our Nuclear arsenal

The M25

The war against Argentina for the Falklands in 82 & the invasion of Iraq

The Channel Tunnel

& lots & lots of duck ponds

Those days are gone, now, and in the past, they must remain,

so we must hike taxes,

and screw the workers again............

 

Who worked and saved for,

a future of their weans

but stood against them

a nationalist army.

who raised their taxes.....

tae tax and spend

[Space Mackerel]

Those days are gone, now, and in the past, they must remain,

so we must hike taxes,

and screw the workers again............

 

Who worked and saved for,

a future of their weans

but stood against them

a nationalist army.

who raised their taxes.....

tae tax and spend

 

An actual supposedly doctor not wanting tax rises to fund his very occupation?

 

How very odd. 

[Pans Jambo]

Those days are gone, now, and in the past, they must remain,

so we must hike taxes,

and screw the workers again............

 

Who worked and saved for,

a future of their weans

but stood against them

a nationalist army.

who raised their taxes.....

tae tax and spend

Look I'm not an SNP supporter at all but it seems to me that they are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

 

Who was it that was crying for the SNP to actually use their new tax powers? Oh aye, the Yoonny Nats. Now that they are, its SNP=Bad. The Council Tax was frozen for NINE years FFS! What should they do then? Not use their tax powers? Resign?

 

The days where oil pays for everything may be (temporarily) in the past but so what? Westminster has spent squandered hundreds of billions of oil money over the last 40 odd years and now its worth a lot less than it was due to market forces, the Yoons are pissing themselves because they have short memories.

 

Having large natural resources is a huge burden though.

[doctor jambo]

An actual supposedly doctor not wanting tax rises to fund his very occupation?

 

How very odd. 

The taxation is not being used for health care, though, is it.....

I don't mind my council tax rise, as I stated

I don't even grudge not getting the tax cut everyone else in the UK got.

I would like a realistic proposal from ANYONE as to how they would keep Scotland from falling into ANOTHER deep recession, when we have not recovered from the last one

And SM- note you didn't respond to the Malta issue.........

Malta is one of the few countries that refuses to disclose who owns the companies there and has a corp tax rate of 5%.

Its a simple thing.... where is the money coming from , if it is not through increasing tax on the populace- especially if we find ourselves tethered to an rUK that WILL slash taxes to stay competitive outside EU

Scotland would not survive a significant cross border tax differential- not when England will have a shortage of teachers, nurses, Doctors, Engineers and so on to fill

[Space Mackerel]

They are shutting 9 hospitals in England and Wales are they not? How many in Scotland?

 

And the point of the Malta meme was not to go into any great detail about their fiscal policy, it's more a dig at the lies in the Yoon media as per below.

 

 

 

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[doctor jambo]

They are shutting 9 hospitals in England and Wales are they not? How many in Scotland?

 

And the point of the Malta meme was not to go into any great detail about their fiscal policy, it's more a dig at the lies in the Yoon media as per below.

 

 

 

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Still waiting on an answer, I know you keep dodging it, but how will Scotland remain fiscally intact post separation- I have told you how Malta did it- is that your wish for Scotland?

To become a tax haven with no real economy?

To be a "brass plaque" set up for businesses to pretend they work from?

Some vision for Scotland that

[Space Mackerel]

Still waiting on an answer, I know you keep dodging it, but how will Scotland remain fiscally intact post separation- I have told you how Malta did it- is that your wish for Scotland?

To become a tax haven with no real economy?

To be a "brass plaque" set up for businesses to pretend they work from?

Some vision for Scotland that

Is the UK finally intact? How much are they borrowing? Must be near ?2 trillion by now?

 

As I've said before, oil and gas will rise again to $100 per barrel in 5 years. That's a lot of untapped wealth, especially with there being reports that there's more off the West coast than might be in Kuwait.

 

I'm sure Scotland will be fine, we can suit interest rates and tax that's beneficial to our small nation of 5 million. When we get back in the EU, I'm sure more business would locate or even relocate here from down South.

 

 

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

It's a strange, strange world we inhabit here in Yoonland.

 

 

 

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[Adam Murray]

It's a strange, strange world we inhabit here in Yoonland.

 

 

 

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Only a 64% turnout, which represented only 32.9% of the electorate voting for it.

 

It was decided and agreed by all parties beforehand, that if fewer than 40% of the electorate voted, the Act would be repealed.

 

Not so sure the EU referendum had such stipulations. 

[Bazzas right boot]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-take-13-minutes-to-decide-to-double-the-royal-familys-income-a7607986.html

[DanishTam10]

Yoonland?

 

It seems so childish. 

[JamboX2]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-take-13-minutes-to-decide-to-double-the-royal-familys-income-a7607986.html

And... I'm a socialist but this is the wrong fight to go about devaluing the monarchy.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Only a 64% turnout, which represented only 32.9% of the electorate voting for it.

 

It was decided and agreed by all parties beforehand, that if fewer than 40% of the electorate voted, the Act would be repealed.

 

Not so sure the EU referendum had such stipulations.

It didn't. He's clearly not the sharpest tool.

[Boris]

Only a 64% turnout, which represented only 32.9% of the electorate voting for it.

 

It was decided and agreed by all parties beforehand, that if fewer than 40% of the electorate voted, the Act would be repealed.

 

Not so sure the EU referendum had such stipulations. 

 

Not strictly true, it was an amendment to the bill by a Labour MP representing a non Scots constituency, iirc, so unfair to say "decided and agreed by all parties".

[Adam Murray]

Not strictly true, it was an amendment to the bill by a Labour MP representing a non Scots constituency, iirc, so unfair to say "decided and agreed by all parties".

Everyone knew the criteria before the vote took place though?

[Boris]

Everyone knew the criteria before the vote took place though?

 

Well yes, obviously, I was merely disputing your assertation that "it was decided and agreed by all parties".

[Adam Murray]

Well yes, obviously, I was merely disputing your assertation that "it was decided and agreed by all parties".

Is that not just splitting hairs though? Surely for the vote to have taken place, it would have to be agreed by all parties, amendments and all?

[jambos are go!]

Another good tiff between Portillo and Salmond on This Week last night. Its on the Iplayer or Catch up. Interesting that Salmond downgrades Surgeons claim that another referendum is inevitable to very likely at the end of the piece.

[Space Mackerel]

Well yes, obviously, I was merely disputing your assertation that "it was decided and agreed by all parties".

Not another Yoon coming out with more made up nonsense?

 

 

 

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