Even More SNP Nonsense

[Space Mackerel]

We have the chance to kill off Scottish nationalism

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just after the Brexit vote I came back from holiday and found a string of messages from Pro UK people. They were worried. Nicola Sturgeon was continually on the television complaining about something or other. Far from encountering systematic bias from the BBC, she was getting encouragement. At least she wasn?t one of those dreadful Brexiteers.

 

People were asking me where have you been. Some were angry that I had encouraged them to vote to leave the EU. Look what you?ve done. The pound will soon be worth nothing. The markets are going to crash. We?re all going to lose our jobs and we?re not going to have a Prime Minister for months. Nicola Sturgeon is going to call a second independence referendum and she?s going to win it. It?s all your fault.

 

 

 

There is something feverish about news at the moment. It must be to do with it being on all the time. They have to fill up the time with something. When there is a plane crash there are endless interviews with experts who know absolutely nothing about what has happened. When there is a budget there are continual speculations about what will be in it. Why not just wait a few hours and find out? Well so too with the EU referendum. There was endless noise. Much of it was just people complaining about the result and signalling that they were not and never had been a Brexiteer.

 

Scotland didn?t vote to stay in the EU, nor did England and Wales votes to leave. None of these places are members of the EU. Try counting the members if you are unsure. Scotland is no more  a member of the EU than is Aberdeenshire or Antrim. When the Scottish Assembly was established it was on the basis that it had power over certain matters and didn?t have power over certain other matters. That is what the majority of people in Scotland voted for. Foreign affairs have never been devolved. International relations take place between independent sovereign nation states. Many people in Scotland would prefer that Scotland was such a state. But again we had a vote on this and they lost.

 

The endless noise from Nicola Sturgeon is based on a simple mistake. It is of course a deliberate mistake. She thinks that if she acts as if she were the leader of a sovereign independent nation state she is more likely to become one. But really Scottish nationalists ought continually to be reminded of a simple matter of logic. You cannot become what you already are. If you already are independent, why are you campaigning for it? But then Sturgeon?s grievance collapses. She is complaining about something that was never within her remit and which the electorate in Scotland has more than once decided not to give her the power to control. Until and unless Scotland becomes independent it will not be able to have foreign relations with other sovereign independent nation states.  

 

Most news and most comment about news is trivial. The reason for this is that most news will be forgotten a year from now. Political comment likewise is usually of no consequence. There was endless comment during the last General Election about what would happen if there were a hung Parliament. Today there is a lot of noise about Theresa May?s trousers. Nicola Sturgeon?s talking head after the Brexit vote was of no more consequence than these lederhosen. It is vital to see through the day to day noise and try to think about long term consequences. What matters is not that an argument works today, but that it works a year from now.

 

Nicola Sturgeon talks about all sorts of conditions that must be met or else she will call an independence referendum. This is all noise. There is only one condition. Can she win it? 

 

The whole narrative is ludicrous. Supposedly the UK Government has to make all sorts of concessions to the SNP or else Nicola Sturgeon will do what she wants to do more than anything else in the world, i.e. have another independence referendum. But let?s say the UK Government gave the SNP everything they could possibly dream of. Imagine if the Scottish Parliament was given even more powers, and even more money. Imagine if there was another Constitutional Convention and Gordon Brown made another vow. Imagine if the UK became a federal state. Imagine if all these things happened would it kill of the hydra of Scottish nationalism. Would the SNP cease to want independence?

 

All sorts of weird and wonderful schemes are dreamed up by which Scotland somehow gets to stay in the EU or the Single Market. These are then presented as the condition for the SNP not calling a second independence referendum. But what if Scotland were given this special status? Would this mean that we wouldn?t have a second referendum five years from now or ten years from now? Of course it wouldn?t. So why bother. We have to learn the lesson that there is no appeasing nationalism. There is nothing the SNP wants except independence. So no more Constitutional Conventions please, the last one has done enough damage. The UK needs more unity. We need to go in the opposite direction to the one in which the SNP wants to travel.

 

So cut through the noise coming from Nicola Sturgeon?s mouth. Jabber, jabber, jabber Scotland ? jabber, jabber, jabber ? independence. The only thing that matters is whether what she wants is what the electorate in Scotland wants.

 

Again it is important to look at matters from a more long term perspective. There were a few opinion polls in June and July that showed support for Scottish independence had increased. This was one of the reasons why people were writing to me in a panic. But polls go up and down and anyway they are wildly inaccurate. What matters is the fundamentals. Leaving the EU makes Scottish independence harder.

 

Voting for Brexit in the short term angered quite a lot of Scots who found themselves on the losing side of the argument. It angered a lot of people in the rest of the UK too. Naturally this had a short term effect on opinion polls. But just like news, these day to day emotions are trivial. This is human nature. We get angry, but then we get bored. Each of us had a huge emotional reaction to Brexit, but it was also complex. I was pleased, but scared and uncertain. Would the scare stories come true? For the first month I read everything I could about Brexit, but then I got on with my life. I stopped following every detail. Above all I stopped listening to Nicola Sturgeon.

 

The last six months hasn?t been a disaster for the UK. Perhaps next year will be. Lots of people seem desperate for leaving the EU to go as badly as possible. It?s a peculiar sort of masochism. Above all it?s peculiar if you want the UK to remain intact.

 

Most Scots just got on with their lives in the past few months. Whichever way we voted in the EU referendum we got on with daily life. We put the debate behind us. It is for this reason that support for Scottish independence has not increased and instead has fallen. I didn?t take part in the SNP?s national survey. But then I don?t know anyone else who did. Apparently SNP activists were going to ask all their friends. That seems an excellent method of coming up with an unbiased sample. I?d love to know what the results were, but the SNP won?t tell me. But then again I don?t need them to tell me. Imagine if two million Scots had told the SNP that they were desperate for another independence referendum. Would the results be secret under those circumstances?

 

Some disappointed Remainers will continue to try to prevent Brexit or to turn it into leaving in name only. They will fail. But they might help the SNP. 2016 was a year of revolutions and the momentum from this is liable to continue into 2017. The UK electorate is sick of an establishment that has ignored its legitimate concerns for decades. That is the fundamental thing that happened this year. That is the thing that will remain news a year from now. In time it may even topple the Scottish establishment. Who are they? Well they have been in power for quite a long time now.

 

The EU apparently wants to be as nasty to Britain as it can be. Again some Remainers will cheer them on. They will be delighted that the EU wants to make leaving as unpleasant as possible that it considers those who attempt to escape as deserving severe punishment. I get the impression some Remainers think that the EU is really called Stalag Luft III and that Brexiteers deserve to be shot by machine guns in order to discourage the others. But this too won?t work. Once you have turned your beloved EU into a prison, you have lost the argument. What?s more the revolution is contagious.

 

We have seen off worse than the EU and we have also been isolated before with the whole of Europe against us. This just helps British unity.

 

 

 

The SNP thinks that Scots prefer the EU to the UK but they are mistaken. We all want free trade and we all want to be able to live and work in Europe. But few indeed of us want more than this from the EU. When did you last watch a debate in the EU Parliament? Some of us vaguely think of ourselves as internationalists. But Scots who want to create a border between England and Scotland are a peculiar sort of internationalist.

 

What we want from the EU is no more than we are willing to give them in return. If they allow us to live in their country, then we will allow a similar number to live in ours. If they trade freely with us, we will trade freely with them. That is the essence of the matter. The rest is noise. You should not have to be ruled by someone in order to trade freely with them. Moreover you shouldn?t have to pay to do so. Paying for free trade means that it is not free.

 

Brexit makes the choice for Scottish nationalists particularly delightful. Do you want to live in a Britain that is not ruled by the EU or do you prefer to be an ?independent? Scotland subject to ever closer union more and more ruled by Brussels and ultimately by Berlin? Do you want to end up in a different trading bloc to your closest trade partner? Do you think a place with five million people will get a better deal from our European neighbours than a place with sixty five million people? Do you think that the UK leaving the EU makes it more or less likely that they would share a currency with Scotland? If Scotland were in the Single Market, but England was not would there have to be customs at Gretna? Do you know that the EU countries that want to discourage secession will even allow Scotland to join in the short term? How sure are you that the EU will even exist in ten years? The Visegr?d Group don?t seem very keen on being bossed around and Italy has become the new Greece.

 

Brexit forces Scottish nationalists to choose. It makes the disadvantages of Scottish independence more acute. It makes any split from the other parts of the UK more fundamental and deeper. If we can make Brexit work, if we can show that prosperity awaits the UK outside the EU, we have the chance to kill off Scottish nationalism. So all Pro UK people should work together to get the best Brexit deal possible. The Scottish nationalists would love it if Brexit were to fail. They have the excuse that they hate Britain. Do you?

 

What a load of shite. Especially the very last 2 sentences.

 

You really have no idea do you Thrapper? And neither does the author of this pish.

[jack D and coke]

The issue there is you are relying on the political establishment of Scotland to behave differently than other western countries and I see no evidence that this would be the case.

This is what's wrong imo. Independence was offered with EU membership well sorry I don't want that either. Is Nicola Sturgeon offering to reset the whole shebang or just independence on the SNP's terms?

It's why I can't really be doing with them tbh.

If they really cared about Scotland becoming free again they'd let us decide the whole thing not just break up the uk on their terms.

[Boris]

This is what's wrong imo. Independence was offered with EU membership well sorry I don't want that either. Is Nicola Sturgeon offering to reset the whole shebang or just independence on the SNP's terms?

It's why I can't really be doing with them tbh.

If they really cared about Scotland becoming free again they'd let us decide the whole thing not just break up the uk on their terms.

I agree! Perhaps why the ref failed.

[Mister T]

I'm absolutely loaded.

Walter? Walter Mitty? is that you? Edited December 17, 2016 by Mister T

[Mr Brightside]

Then it's up to the people. They, after all, will have voted for independence.

People can only vote for the parties and candidates put forward. I don't believe independence will generate better parties or candidates.

[jack D and coke]

I agree! Perhaps why the ref failed.

The SNP are why they failed in the referendum I think mate. Salmond was one of the reasons. They are so unlikeable, Sturgeon hmm I can just about take her in bits but in general she rips my Jimmy's these days. Salmond, Humza, Hosie, Sheikh, Hyslop I could go on and on. Just dreadful, I can't stand them.

I'm sure they must all go somewhere to learn how to be smug bumptious arseholes.

[Mr Brightside]

This is what's wrong imo. Independence was offered with EU membership well sorry I don't want that either. Is Nicola Sturgeon offering to reset the whole shebang or just independence on the SNP's terms?

It's why I can't really be doing with them tbh.

If they really cared about Scotland becoming free again they'd let us decide the whole thing not just break up the uk on their terms.

Agreed. Perhaps I am being cynical but I just can't see a system being created that doesn't shaft the common man.

[aussieh]

Yawn. They have had their chance to make a "sweeping change" to benefit the lower paid by moving to a "progressive tax system"and they have bottled it.

 

If they had reduced the higher-rate to 30% and abolished the additional rate the halfwit Tory-Haters in Weeg and Dundee should still vote for them despite not understanding what has just happened. The Nat voters are so stupid they can't see the SNP just applying Tory policies but without using the name "Tory". For them its a win-win. But the country as a whole has been duped.

 

Freeeedommmmmmmmm

You voted no, and you think we were duped by the SNP.

 

 

Oppressioooooooooooooooooooooooon

[Trapper John McIntyre]

You voted no, and you think we were duped by the SNP.

 

 

Oppressioooooooooooooooooooooooon

[JamboX2]

Whilst not a SNP supporter what exactly have they wrecked? In your opinion...

I can't say I notice them being much worse than any other lot tbh.

Look at the legacy of labour and PFI for example where Scotland has the highest debt ration in the world! Is that not wrecking? What about their lies all through the 70's saying Scotland would be like Bangladesh should it go independent when oil revenues would have made us the one of the richest nations on the planet.

I'm not just picking on labour here btw I think you could pick apart most governments if you don't wear that colour rosette.

Labourbad

 

On PFI the SNP version has racked up more debt.

[jack D and coke]

Labourbad

 

On PFI the SNP version has racked up more debt.

Like I said you can pick apart whatever government you like depending on what angle you see things from.

On a side note isn't the new version of PFI the SNP have been using much lower interest or something? Can't remember where I read the details of it...

[aussieh]

Labourbad

 

On PFI the SNP version has racked up more debt.

Dreamland.

How's labours schools holding up these says?

[aussieh]

 

 

You voted no, and you think we were duped by the SNP.

 

 

Oppressioooooooooooooooooooooooon

Oh look its trapper the em, laboratory thingy voter who hates Scotland so much he'd rather be ruled. Well we'll see how you react if George square is any measure when death comes to britland.

 

The GLS will free Scotland and her people from the tyranny of Brits.

 

All hail the GLS, All hail the FM. All hail Jesus the King of Scotland.

[deesidejambo]

Oh look its trapper the em, laboratory thingy voter who hates Scotland so much he'd rather be ruled. Well we'll see how you react if George square is any measure when death comes to britland.

 

The GLS will free Scotland and her people from the tyranny of Brits.

 

All hail the GLS, All hail the FM. All hail Jesus the King of Scotland.

Pished again Aussie?

[aussieh]

Pished again Aussie?

No, are you still a gin drinking blouse with Stockholm, Dee?

[Nookie Bear]

When you have bugger all, you are more liable to take a risk, hence voting Yes, perhaps?

 

And, regardless of personal wealth, the Tories are the party of the Toffs, as you put it. I don't think there is any argument there?

 

People are completely entitled to vote No, vote Tory, Vote whatever, that is democracy. My gripe is the conflation of SNP = YES and of course thanks to Tank Grrl, No with Tory (note Labour and Lib Dems completely outflanked on this!)

 

So you end up with SNPbad/Torybad but the key point is not being addressed, imo. That being forging an alternative to the current economic system. That's what is crippling us all now and for the foreseeable. Capitalism need sto evolve/adapt/change from its current form or it's going to lead us to a much, much darker place.

What is a Toff?

 

In my mind it is an old-Etonian style man swanning round in a tux and white scarf, snorting at the dishevelled masses beneath him.

 

Does that image suit the large pecentage of Scots who voted Conservative?

[aussieh]

What is a Toff?

 

In my mind it is an old-Etonian style man swanning round in a tux and white scarf, snorting at the dishevelled masses beneath him.

 

Does that image suit the large pecentage of Scots who voted Conservative?

No, they're more of the July majorette variety.

[Boris]

What is a Toff?

 

In my mind it is an old-Etonian style man swanning round in a tux and white scarf, snorting at the dishevelled masses beneath him.

 

Does that image suit the large pecentage of Scots who voted Conservative?

 

Regardless of who votes for them, imo, when you look at the likes of Rees-Mogg, Grayling, Hunt, they are "toffs".  Almost archetypal!

[deesidejambo]

Regardless of who votes for them, imo, when you look at the likes of Rees-Mogg, Grayling, Hunt, they are "toffs". Almost archetypal!

Ruth Davidson? She went to School in Methil ffs

[deesidejambo]

No, are you still a gin drinking blouse with Stockholm, Dee?

I only drink good Scottish Edinburgh Gin. Four bottles coming my way at Xmas.

[AlphonseCapone]

What is a Toff?

 

In my mind it is an old-Etonian style man swanning round in a tux and white scarf, snorting at the dishevelled masses beneath him.

 

Does that image suit the large pecentage of Scots who voted Conservative?

I think toff is obviously meant in a negative light, and I'd see it as a generational member of the upper classes.

 

Most conservative voters aren't toffs imo, they are typically middle class I'd guess though.

 

Scottish conservative voters are even more complex to define because there is currently a lot of people voting for them as a party of the union imo. They aren't necessarily just voting for them for economic policies.

 

I find the idea, tory equals bad so simplistic and unnecessary, even if I stand against almost everything that party does.

[Boris]

Ruth Davidson? She went to School in Methil ffs

 

For every example you can bring out a counter.

 

Toff is perhaps an antiquated term.  But the Tory party represents no on ebut the interest of the establishment an the ruling class.

 

Rural Scots Tories are just as bad in my book.

[Boris]

I find the idea, tory equals bad so simplistic and unnecessary, even if I stand against almost everything that party does.

 

Simplistic, but 99% of the time true!  

 

Obviously those of a different political persuasion will feel that about their political nemisis.

 

Agreed, it doesn't do anything constructive to think like this, I think I made that point earlier.  What is needed is the refutation of their policies and to show them up for what they are.

 

Unfortunately though, we appear to be in an environment where political discourse is all about soundbites, pejorative slogans, untruths and bribes that will never be paid.

[Nookie Bear]

Simplistic, but 99% of the time true!

 

Obviously those of a different political persuasion will feel that about their political nemisis.

 

Agreed, it doesn't do anything constructive to think like this, I think I made that point earlier. What is needed is the refutation of their policies and to show them up for what they are.

 

Unfortunately though, we appear to be in an environment where political discourse is all about soundbites, pejorative slogans, untruths and bribes that will never be paid.

"The Tories are the party of the Toffs, I don't think there is any argument there..."

 

Soundbite, slogan, untruth.

[Boris]

"The Tories are the party of the Toffs, I don't think there is any argument there..."

 

Soundbite, slogan, untruth.

 

I should have explained better, in that they repreent the best interests of the establishment ruling classes.  

 

But yes, it was a slogan/soundbite.  BUt not, imo, an untruth!  

[JamboX2]

Like I said you can pick apart whatever government you like depending on what angle you see things from.

On a side note isn't the new version of PFI the SNP have been using much lower interest or something? Can't remember where I read the details of it...

Think it extends the length of time to repay on a lower interest rate.

[Harry Potter]

When is indy 2, more corrupt than our scottish refs, mackeral fish tell me please.

Lets keep voting till its a yes, beyond me that wee woman.

[AlphonseCapone]

When is indy 2, more corrupt than our scottish refs, mackeral fish tell me please.

Lets keep voting till its a yes, beyond me that wee woman.

That wee woman, what a misogynistic... Edited December 19, 2016 by AlphonseCapone

[deesidejambo]

For every example you can bring out a counter.

 

Toff is perhaps an antiquated term. But the Tory party represents no on ebut the interest of the establishment an the ruling class.

 

Rural Scots Tories are just as bad in my book.

Weil if they are only in it for themselves how do they manage to pick up so many votes?

 

I think it's weak argument just to play the toffs card, but it does work with the dafties.

 

What was your view of the SNP recalcitrance on taxation? To me it was their big chance to show their teeth and maybe win more support but bottling it was poor imo. Your view?

[XB52]

When is indy 2, more corrupt than our scottish refs, mackeral fish tell me please.

Lets keep voting till its a yes, beyond me that wee woman.

you have a chance every few years to vote for who you want to run Scotland, it's called democracy. The SNP are the largest party and may, just may, try and call Indy 2 in this parliament. They have the right to do this as they got voted into power, but they would need the support of other MSPs to do this; again it's called democracy.

Your 'wee woman' quip says so much about you, bit sad really 

[XB52]

Weil if they are only in it for themselves how do they manage to pick up so many votes?

 

I think it's weak argument just to play the toffs card, but it does work with the dafties.

 

What was your view of the SNP recalcitrance on taxation? To me it was their big chance to show their teeth and maybe win more support but bottling it was poor imo. Your view?

The Tories got 22% of the votes in the last election

[Boris]

Weil if they are only in it for themselves how do they manage to pick up so many votes?

 

I think it's weak argument just to play the toffs card, but it does work with the dafties.

 

What was your view of the SNP recalcitrance on taxation? To me it was their big chance to show their teeth and maybe win more support but bottling it was poor imo. Your view?

 

First point, no idea!  Why anyone would vote Tory is beyond my ken!  That said, they have humbugged Labour (in Scotland) and have positioned themselves as the number 1 unionist party.  On that single issue alone, they will have gained support, which is probably the explanation as to where they are in the polls right now.  Possibly even hit their high watermark.

 

At the moment, regards taxation in Scotland, there may be merits in increasing certain aspects of higher bracket taxation.  I suppose the SNP argument woud be that ALL taxation should fall under Holyrood (VAT, etc)

 

Right now, I'm not sure increasing the basic rate would be a good thing.  The economy is fragile at the moment, both in Scotland, UK, Europe, the World.  I think local taxation needs to be sorted out once and for all too.

 

Have the SNP missed an opportunity?  I couldn't really say.  It avoids the Tories playing the low taxation card.

[Space Mackerel]

When is indy 2, more corrupt than our scottish refs, mackeral fish tell me please.

Lets keep voting till its a yes, beyond me that wee woman.

What a disjointed comment. Speak the Queens English please.

[deesidejambo]

First point, no idea! Why anyone would vote Tory is beyond my ken! That said, they have humbugged Labour (in Scotland) and have positioned themselves as the number 1 unionist party. On that single issue alone, they will have gained support, which is probably the explanation as to where they are in the polls right now. Possibly even hit their high watermark.

 

At the moment, regards taxation in Scotland, there may be merits in increasing certain aspects of higher bracket taxation. I suppose the SNP argument woud be that ALL taxation should fall under Holyrood (VAT, etc)

 

Right now, I'm not sure increasing the basic rate would be a good thing. The economy is fragile at the moment, both in Scotland, UK, Europe, the World. I think local taxation needs to be sorted out once and for all too.

 

Have the SNP missed an opportunity? I couldn't really say. It avoids the Tories playing the low taxation card.

They missed an opportunity with me anyway. I and I suspect others would be happy to pay extra to fund social justice. Even better would have been to increase the higher rate no?

 

Even Davidson advocates reintroduction of prescription charges on a means tested basis. That would not be easy to implement but at least it shows she is not always in it for the toffs.

 

As for the Tories being the only voice for the Union. Not the case but if Labour change to an Indy stance the Unionist Labour voters will switch to Tory and won't gain Many votes from SNP so that won't happen.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

That wee woman, what a misogynistic...

You're so black and white.

[Space Mackerel]

You're so black and white.

How's the SLAB vote these days John?

[aussieh]

"The Tories are the party of the Toffs, I don't think there is any argument there..."

 

Soundbite, slogan, untruth.

Boris is right but its not really a tory party in Scotland, its the Unionist Party. Both scum.

[aussieh]

Weil if they are only in it for themselves how do they manage to pick up so many votes?

 

I think it's weak argument just to play the toffs card, but it does work with the dafties.

 

What was your view of the SNP recalcitrance on taxation? To me it was their big chance to show their teeth and maybe win more support but bottling it was poor imo. Your view?

The tories lost their shit over it, calling Scotland the most taxed country. Make up your mind.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

How's the SLAB vote these days John?

[AlphonseCapone]

You're so black and white.

Cool.

[Space Mackerel]

 

How's the SLAB vote these days John?

Bwhahahahahahahahahaha [emoji1]

 

[Space Mackerel]

 

How's the SLAB vote these days John?

Bwhahahahahahaha [emoji1]

 

Check your London paymasters oot. What a bunch of dodgy Yoonys [emoji1]

 

[JamboX2]

Bwhahahahahahaha [emoji1]

 

Check your London paymasters oot. What a bunch of dodgy Yoonys [emoji1]

 

Not that I'm defending the McCrone issues, but do you not think there's more to our future than oil?

[pablo]

Boris is right but its not really a tory party in Scotland, its the Unionist Party. Both scum.

Not being funny, but is this actually allowed around here now? Calling each other scum....I've got news for you, there's too many decent people living in Scotland (no matter what their political viewpoint is) for this to become the norm. You're a total embarrassment.

Edited December 19, 2016 by pablo

[Space Mackerel]

Not that I'm defending the McCrone issues, but do you not think there's more to our future than oil?

You should watch the whole doc even if it's an Alba production. All records are from the Government archives.

 

Out future is away from Westminster, oil or no oil.

[aussieh]

Not being funny, but is this actually allowed around here now? Calling each other scum....I've got news for you, there's too many decent people living in Scotland (no matter what their political viewpoint is) for this to become the norm. You're a total embarrassment.

Only 45% decent

[Trapper John McIntyre]

Only 45% decent

44% and dropping.

[aussieh]

44% and dropping.

100% Scots

No ruk votes in ondy2, same rules as the EUref1. Nae luck imposter.

[Space Mackerel]

44% and dropping.

What's SLAB dropped to John?

 

Go on, give us all the latest

[Thunderstruck]

You know they have the square root of nothing (still not a lot), when the "SLAB deid" gets trotted out.

 

Empty vessels, etc.