Even More SNP Nonsense

[Boris]

That's because they don't have the brains to make changes. Everything they touch, and  I mean everything, turns to utter shite and their cabinet ministers are no more than jumped up party activists, hence why this country is going down the tubes. Thankfully, the electorate with just a modicum of intelligence will ensure that we never become independent.

 

With the greatest respect, the same could be said of all parties at Holyrood and Westminster, imo.

[Boris]

Folk greeting about a different threshold of less than 2 grand, how many folk will actually pay more in Scotland compared to England?

 

They shouldn't have renegaded on the 50p increase though, although it would have made the budget even less likely to pass.

 

Folk should pay more tax, especially in Scotland, we get a lot in way of free education, lower council tax rates, free prescriptions. As usual though folk want their cake and to eat it.

 

Therein lies the dichotomy.

 

Despite all sorts of popular votes against the status quo (except in Scotland!) it seems that thanks to the financial crisis people want change.  Now whether that's down to blaming immigration or whatever is perhaps irrelevant, because the reason for the crisis was the economic system.  That, unsurprisingly is being left untouched, so ultimately nothing will change, materially, for those that feel disenfranchised.  What happens when they realise that nothing changes?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/13/brexit-leave-voters-theresa-may-promise

 

As an aside, I thought this was an interesting review.  http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-8581-Decoding-the-culture-of-capitalism#.WFPSelWLSM8

[Boris]

Wortha read too, imo.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/09/wolfgang-streeck-the-german-economist-calling-time-on-capitalism

[deesidejambo]

Therein lies the dichotomy.

 

Despite all sorts of popular votes against the status quo (except in Scotland!) it seems that thanks to the financial crisis people want change. Now whether that's down to blaming immigration or whatever is perhaps irrelevant, because the reason for the crisis was the economic system. That, unsurprisingly is being left untouched, so ultimately nothing will change, materially, for those that feel disenfranchised. What happens when they realise that nothing changes?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/13/brexit-leave-voters-theresa-may-promise

 

As an aside, I thought this was an interesting review. http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-8581-Decoding-the-culture-of-capitalism#.WFPSelWLSM8

The electorate were well and truly duped. Abolish Council Tax and replace with progressive system was the promise. All lies.

 

But your point about what happens when the public realise?

 

Nothing will happen because the SNP are branded as the party for those who hate

Toffs. The mindlessl public will continue to vote for that regardless. Cutting off nose to spite face.

 

Many who vote SNP do it out of spite. Freeeeedommmmm.

[Boris]

The electorate were well and truly duped. Abolish Council Tax and replace with progressive system was the promise. All lies.

 

But your point about what happens when the public realise?

 

Nothing will happen because the SNP are branded as the party for those who hate

Toffs. The mindlessl public will continue to vote for that regardless. Cutting off nose to spite face.

 

Many who vote SNP do it out of spite. Freeeeedommmmm.

 

I was meaning generally i.e. the droves of working class who voted to Leave the EU, only to suddenly realise that neoliberalsim isn't about giving them anything in the first place.

 

The SNP with it's offer of independence acts as a magnet for this type of disaffection.  That magnetic pull may intensify in the future as neoliberalism changes nothing.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Criticised for not using the extra tax powers.

 

Criticised for using the extra tax powers.

 

The hypocrisy is strong in some.

 

 

 

[deesidejambo]

Criticised for not using the extra tax powers.

 

Criticised for using the extra tax powers.

 

The hypocrisy is strong in some.

Yawn.     They have had their chance to make a "sweeping change" to benefit the lower paid by moving to a "progressive tax system"and they have bottled it.

 

If they had reduced the higher-rate to 30% and abolished the additional rate the halfwit Tory-Haters in Weeg and Dundee should still vote for them despite not understanding what has just happened.  The Nat voters are so stupid they can't see the SNP just applying Tory policies but without using the name "Tory".  For them its a win-win.  But the country as a whole has been duped.

 

Freeeedommmmmmmmm

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Yawn.     They have had their chance to make a "sweeping change" to benefit the lower paid by moving to a "progressive tax system"and they have bottled it.

 

If they had reduced the higher-rate to 30% and abolished the additional rate the halfwit Tory-Haters in Weeg and Dundee should still vote for them despite not understanding what has just happened.  The Nat voters are so stupid they can't see the SNP just applying Tory policies but without using the name "Tory".  For them its a win-win.  But the country as a whole has been duped.

 

Freeeedommmmmmmmm

 

Absolutely 100% bang on mate, doesn't make the slightest difference which political party is in charge, they are all liars, every last one of them.

[Space Mackerel]

Yawn. They have had their chance to make a "sweeping change" to benefit the lower paid by moving to a "progressive tax system"and they have bottled it.

 

If they had reduced the higher-rate to 30% and abolished the additional rate the halfwit Tory-Haters in Weeg and Dundee should still vote for them despite not understanding what has just happened. The Nat voters are so stupid they can't see the SNP just applying Tory policies but without using the name "Tory". For them its a win-win. But the country as a whole has been duped.

 

Freeeedommmmmmmmm

[jack D and coke]

 

Yawn. They have had their chance to make a "sweeping change" to benefit the lower paid by moving to a "progressive tax system"and they have bottled it.

 

If they had reduced the higher-rate to 30% and abolished the additional rate the halfwit Tory-Haters in Weeg and Dundee should still vote for them despite not understanding what has just happened. The Nat voters are so stupid they can't see the SNP just applying Tory policies but without using the name "Tory". For them its a win-win. But the country as a whole has been duped.

 

Freeeedommmmmmmmm

I'm not an SNP supporter or voter anymore but there is a lot of truth here.

I'm fairly sure if they'd cut tax the newspapers would've spun it into a negative too. "Cuts to Public Services" or some other shite.

Apparently it's ?314 per annum for the better off.

I spend more than that on a weekend on the batter.

[AlphonseCapone]

The freedommmmm banter is cracking like. Braveheart lolz.

[doctor jambo]

I'm not an SNP supporter or voter anymore but there is a lot of truth here.

I'm fairly sure if they'd cut tax the newspapers would've spun it into a negative too. "Cuts to Public Services" or some other shite.

Apparently it's ?314 per annum for the better off.

I spend more than that on a weekend on the batter.

its as well that those things are reserved, the SNP have wrecked everything that isn't

The taxes they do control they wont touch, so why ask to touch even more that you will do nothing with?

THe money is not the problem

 

The eternal problems remain

 

You have a small amount of people at the top who don't really use services because they are healthy, use private health care and private education but whom pay in loads of tax to pay for these things

 

Then a large amount of people who pay in some taxation and use services a little bit

 

Then a largish amount of people who pay in little or nothing at all and use the services a hell of a lot

 

Throwing money into this model is not going to change what people are, nor their attitudes to education, diet, exercise, smoking, drinking, drug use and procreation

[Space Mackerel]

its as well that those things are reserved, the SNP have wrecked everything that isn't

The taxes they do control they wont touch, so why ask to touch even more that you will do nothing with?

THe money is not the problem

 

The eternal problems remain

 

You have a small amount of people at the top who don't really use services because they are healthy, use private health care and private education but whom pay in loads of tax to pay for these things

 

Then a large amount of people who pay in some taxation and use services a little bit

 

Then a largish amount of people who pay in little or nothing at all and use the services a hell of a lot

 

Throwing money into this model is not going to change what people are, nor their attitudes to education, diet, exercise, smoking, drinking, drug use and procreation

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-your-free-and-fair-press-today/

[JamboX2]

Folk greeting about a different threshold of less than 2 grand, how many folk will actually pay more in Scotland compared to England?

 

They shouldn't have renegaded on the 50p increase though, although it would have made the budget even less likely to pass.

 

Folk should pay more tax, especially in Scotland, we get a lot in way of free education, lower council tax rates, free prescriptions. As usual though folk want their cake and to eat it.

Imo more likely with 50p. Lab/Green/Liberal support would have been almost in the bag give or take one or two spending priorities.

 

By not they're closer to getting Tory support.

[jack D and coke]

its as well that those things are reserved, the SNP have wrecked everything that isn't

The taxes they do control they wont touch, so why ask to touch even more that you will do nothing with?

THe money is not the problem

 

The eternal problems remain

 

You have a small amount of people at the top who don't really use services because they are healthy, use private health care and private education but whom pay in loads of tax to pay for these things

 

Then a large amount of people who pay in some taxation and use services a little bit

 

Then a largish amount of people who pay in little or nothing at all and use the services a hell of a lot

 

Throwing money into this model is not going to change what people are, nor their attitudes to education, diet, exercise, smoking, drinking, drug use and procreation

Whilst not a SNP supporter what exactly have they wrecked? In your opinion...

I can't say I notice them being much worse than any other lot tbh.

Look at the legacy of labour and PFI for example where Scotland has the highest debt ration in the world! Is that not wrecking? What about their lies all through the 70's saying Scotland would be like Bangladesh should it go independent when oil revenues would have made us the one of the richest nations on the planet.

I'm not just picking on labour here btw I think you could pick apart most governments if you don't wear that colour rosette.

[reaths17]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-your-free-and-fair-press-today/

what would you do without copy n paste, from the boys who do your thinking for you ?

[deesidejambo]

Its simple - they got their freeeedommmmmm and they bottled it.

 

And moaning about wanting more powers over other taxes wont cut it - they were given the big one and chickened out so why give them any more powers for them not to use.

 

But the schemies will vote for them anyway cos they arnae English toffs.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Its simple - they got their freeeedommmmmm and they bottled it.

 

And moaning about wanting more powers over other taxes wont cut it - they were given the big one and chickened out so why give them any more powers for them not to use.

 

But the schemies will vote for them anyway cos they arnae English toffs.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that I get the impression that you don't like the SNP very much.  

[doctor jambo]

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that I get the impression that you don't like the SNP very much.  

They got their freedom and realised that a small nation with a massive deficit was not a good nor easy thing to run

[deesidejambo]

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that I get the impression that you don't like the SNP very much.  

Not a wild guess!!!!

 

I just object to a party who attract votes by the "we hate Toffs" approach which panders to the Socio DE voting groups.  Its one of grievance and jealousy.     I don't vote Tory myself (well I did for the first time in my life at the last GE tactically to try and keep the SNP out).

 

Personally I was wanting higher rate to go up to reflect the SNPeeeees "progressive new policy" but they have conned the voters into thinking they are an alternative to the Tories, whist in fact they are no different.  But daftiess will keep voting for them.

[Boris]

Its simple - they got their freeeedommmmmm and they bottled it.

 

And moaning about wanting more powers over other taxes wont cut it - they were given the big one and chickened out so why give them any more powers for them not to use.

 

But the schemies will vote for them anyway cos they arnae English toffs.

 

How very civic of you!

[Boris]

They got their freedom and realised that a small nation with a massive deficit was not a good nor easy thing to run

 

I thought the Scottish Givt had pretty much balanced its books over the last few years?

 

Oh, the GERs figures...hmmm....

[deesidejambo]

How very civic of you!

Just relaying facts.

 

Poll after poll after poll shows that Socio DE Groups are Indyvoters and ABCs are not.     This is further evidenced by the fact that the two areas in Scotland with the highest proportion of DEs is, wait for it, Glasgow and Dundee, the two areas that also voted Yes.

 

Then at Indyref we see Nicola turning up in East Glasgow to unfurl the Tory Toffs banner that the SNP used in the area.

 

But hey - old people like me are No voters and SM looks forward to us dying so as long as they want me dead I'll call them dafties.    They probably think I'm senile anyway.

 

Freeeeedommmmmmm!!!!

[Space Mackerel]

Just relaying facts.

 

Poll after poll after poll shows that Socio DE Groups are Indyvoters and ABCs are not. This is further evidenced by the fact that the two areas in Scotland with the highest proportion of DEs is, wait for it, Glasgow and Dundee, the two areas that also voted Yes.

 

Then at Indyref we see Nicola turning up in East Glasgow to unfurl the Tory Toffs banner that the SNP used in the area.

 

But hey - old people like me are No voters and SM looks forward to us dying so as long as they want me dead I'll call them dafties. They probably think I'm senile anyway.

 

Freeeeedommmmmmm!!!!

Wait a min, I earn an absolute fortune and I'm a SNP card carrying member.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Not a wild guess!!!!

 

I just object to a party who attract votes by the "we hate Toffs" approach which panders to the Socio DE voting groups.  Its one of grievance and jealousy.     I don't vote Tory myself (well I did for the first time in my life at the last GE tactically to try and keep the SNP out).

 

Personally I was wanting higher rate to go up to reflect the SNPeeeees "progressive new policy" but they have conned the voters into thinking they are an alternative to the Tories, whist in fact they are no different.  But daftiess will keep voting for them.

 

I'm glad you made it clear that you were talking about the SNP because everything in bold equally applies to Labour, isn't that what Labour are portraying themselves to be, an alternative to the Tories?

[deesidejambo]

I'm glad you made it clear that you were talking about the SNP because everything in bold equally applies to Labour, isn't that what Labour are portraying themselves to be, an alternative to the Tories?

Yes indeed but two points -

 

Labour are an alternative. They would have raised the higher rate.

 

SNP just portray Tories as English toffs as opposed to offering alternative policy. But the scallies just like hating Tories.

[deesidejambo]

Wait a min, I earn an absolute fortune and I'm a SNP card carrying member.

Then you must be happy they didn't raise the additional rate like they said they would then!

[Boris]

Just relaying facts.

 

Poll after poll after poll shows that Socio DE Groups are Indyvoters and ABCs are not.     This is further evidenced by the fact that the two areas in Scotland with the highest proportion of DEs is, wait for it, Glasgow and Dundee, the two areas that also voted Yes.

 

Then at Indyref we see Nicola turning up in East Glasgow to unfurl the Tory Toffs banner that the SNP used in the area.

 

But hey - old people like me are No voters and SM looks forward to us dying so as long as they want me dead I'll call them dafties.    They probably think I'm senile anyway.

 

Freeeeedommmmmmm!!!!

 

When you have bugger all, you are more liable to take a risk, hence voting Yes, perhaps?

 

And, regardless of personal wealth, the Tories are the party of the Toffs, as you put it.  I don't think there is any argument there?

 

People are completely entitled to vote No, vote Tory, Vote whatever, that is democracy.  My gripe is the conflation of SNP = YES and of course thanks to Tank Grrl, No with Tory (note Labour and Lib Dems completely outflanked on this!)

 

So you end up with SNPbad/Torybad but the key point is not being addressed, imo.  That being forging an alternative to the current economic system.  That's what is crippling us all now and for the foreseeable.  Capitalism need sto evolve/adapt/change from its current form or it's going to lead us to a much, much darker place.

[deesidejambo]

When you have bugger all, you are more liable to take a risk, hence voting Yes, perhaps?

 

And, regardless of personal wealth, the Tories are the party of the Toffs, as you put it. I don't think there is any argument there?

 

People are completely entitled to vote No, vote Tory, Vote whatever, that is democracy. My gripe is the conflation of SNP = YES and of course thanks to Tank Grrl, No with Tory (note Labour and Lib Dems completely outflanked on this!)

 

So you end up with SNPbad/Torybad but the key point is not being addressed, imo. That being forging an alternative to the current economic system. That's what is crippling us all now and for the foreseeable. Capitalism need sto evolve/adapt/change from its current form or it's going to lead us to a much, much darker place.

Ach you sound like Marx. Or Engels or whatever.

[Space Mackerel]

Then you must be happy they didn't raise the additional rate like they said they would then!

Not really fussed. I'm absolutely loaded. As are most the top earners.

[Boris]

Ach you sound like Marx. Or Engels or whatever.

 

Obviously I will take that as a compliment, but it is quite possible that neoliberalism will in fact destroy capitalism.  Something has to give.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/09/wolfgang-streeck-the-german-economist-calling-time-on-capitalism

Edited December 16, 2016 by Boris

[deesidejambo]

Obviously I will take that as a compliment, but it is quite possible that neoliberalism will in fact destroy capitalism. Something has to give.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/09/wolfgang-streeck-the-german-economist-calling-time-on-capitalism

Naw it Wilnae. Turkeys dont vote for Xmas

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Yes indeed but two points -

 

Labour are an alternative. They would have raised the higher rate.

 

SNP just portray Tories as English toffs as opposed to offering alternative policy. But the scallies just like hating Tories.

 

Labour are hardly a viable alternative to the Tories right now, are they?

Are Labour a viable alternative to the SNP?  The Scottish electorate certainly didn't think so.

The SNP portray the Tories as English full stop, doesn't matter whether they are toffs or not, that is incidental.

I assume these scallies you refer to include not only SNP supporters but also Labour, Lib Dem, UKIP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, indeed everybody who isn't a Tory, oh wait a minute, come to think of it even some Tories hate the Tories.

 

 

[Boris]

Naw it Wilnae. Turkeys dont vote for Xmas

 

Nation states are surplus to requirements now.  Government is to scared to do anything to stop the corporations/oligarchs.

 

It will eat itself, or th epeople it professes to represent i.e. the alientaed who voted for brexit, who voted for trump etc will soon realise that the new boss is the same as the old boss.  Then what?

[deesidejambo]

Nation states are surplus to requirements now. Government is to scared to do anything to stop the corporations/oligarchs.

 

It will eat itself, or th epeople it professes to represent i.e. the alientaed who voted for brexit, who voted for trump etc will soon realise that the new boss is the same as the old boss. Then what?

War?

[Thunderstruck]

Whilst not a SNP supporter what exactly have they wrecked? In your opinion...

I can't say I notice them being much worse than any other lot tbh.

Look at the legacy of labour and PFI for example where Scotland has the highest debt ration in the world! Is that not wrecking? What about their lies all through the 70's saying Scotland would be like Bangladesh should it go independent when oil revenues would have made us the one of the richest nations on the planet.

I'm not just picking on labour here btw I think you could pick apart most governments if you don't wear that colour rosette.

A couple of minor points to come back on.

 

Firstly, PFI is not dead, it is alive and well and living in Scotland under a new name - "NPD" or "Hub". The current Scottish Government is an enthusiastic user of this method of Finance as any of its predecessors. Anyone planning to be around in 10 or 15 years time will reap the whirlwind - whether or not the Nirvana of a Socialist Independent Scotland is achieved.

 

Secondly: Education and Health - does anyone still harbour any notion that these two key services (fully under the control of the Scottish Government) have prospered in the decade of SNP power. The very fact that Mike Russell was put in charge of Education should be a none-too-subtle clue.

 

Has anyone found the nearly ?2bn pa that the SNP diverts from NHS Scotland?

 

 

Well summed up in this - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tom-peterkin-sturgeon-facing-storm-on-domestic-policy-front-1-4317841/amp?client=safari

[Thunderstruck]

Nation states are surplus to requirements now. Government is to scared to do anything to stop the corporations/oligarchs.

 

It will eat itself, or th epeople it professes to represent i.e. the alientaed who voted for brexit, who voted for trump etc will soon realise that the new boss is the same as the old boss. Then what?

The thesis proposed by Phillip Bobbit in his "Shield of Achilles" is that we have had Princely States, City States, Nation States and are now evolving towards Economic States (although "economic" should not be read in a narrow, financial sense).

 

The US, it can be argued, is an Economic State - 50+ entities with significant autonomy working in union. The EC was another example but is in danger of fracturing if it does not listen and adapt.

 

Perhaps the U.K. will evolve into an economic state - a federal U.K. Given that the "independence" on offer in 2014 was reliant on a number of "common" or shared policies (such as energy), it is a possibility recognised by some of the SNP's wiser heads.

[jack D and coke]

The thesis proposed by Phillip Bobbit in his "Shield of Achilles" is that we have had Princely States, City States, Nation States and are now evolving towards Economic States (although "economic" should not be read in a narrow, financial sense).

 

The US, it can be argued, is an Economic State - 50+ entities with significant autonomy working in union. The EC was another example but is in danger of fracturing if it does not listen and adapt.

 

Perhaps the U.K. will evolve into an economic state - a federal U.K. Given that the "independence" on offer in 2014 was reliant on a number of "common" or shared policies (such as energy), it is a possibility recognised by some of the SNP's wiser heads.

Federalism will come. It's an absolute nap.

Some people are fighting it but the current way of UK governance is in its death throes. Imo anyway.

[doctor jambo]

Nation states are surplus to requirements now.  Government is to scared to do anything to stop the corporations/oligarchs.

 

It will eat itself, or th epeople it professes to represent i.e. the alientaed who voted for brexit, who voted for trump etc will soon realise that the new boss is the same as the old boss.  Then what?

Then nothing

Certainly not in this country where the populace have been disarmed

The population of the UK have been stripped of every means to defend themselves or rise up beyond a Nerf Mastodon, while at the same time the police are becoming more armoured and weaponised than ever before

Even if Jo Public wanted to do something about it they couldn't

the majority of the population are now little more than battery hens

[deesidejambo]

Labour are hardly a viable alternative to the Tories right now, are they?

Are Labour a viable alternative to the SNP? The Scottish electorate certainly didn't think so.

The SNP portray the Tories as English full stop, doesn't matter whether they are toffs or not, that is incidental.

I assume these scallies you refer to include not only SNP supporters but also Labour, Lib Dem, UKIP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, indeed everybody who isn't a Tory, oh wait a minute, come to think of it even some Tories hate the Tories.

I didn't say Labour are viable, but they are an alternative. To recover in Scotland they need to push for Devo max and confirm they will use the tax powers to increase the rates. I would be happy to pay more tax if it went to sound policies to improve social justice.

 

I use the word scallies to pejoratively describe SocioDE populace just as they use the word Toffs to describe the Tories. Works both ways.

 

Interestingly Ruth Davidson doesn't come over as a toff to me. Maybe she is the face of the new Tories. Nice and caring. I'm sure she's a Liberal at heart.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Obviously I will take that as a compliment, but it is quite possible that neoliberalism will in fact destroy capitalism.  Something has to give.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/dec/09/wolfgang-streeck-the-german-economist-calling-time-on-capitalism

 

Boris you do love a neo this and neo that. What does that prefix even mean when inserted in front of these words?

[AlphonseCapone]

Federalism will come. It's an absolute nap.

Some people are fighting it but the current way of UK governance is in its death throes. Imo anyway.

Agreed, it's inevitable imo. Independence will follow at some point. Since devolution we've slowly been going that way. At some point we'll be controlling so much ourselves that folk won't really see the purpose of the union within 30 years. All imo.

[jake]

Nation states are surplus to requirements now. Government is to scared to do anything to stop the corporations/oligarchs.

 

It will eat itself, or th epeople it professes to represent i.e. the alientaed who voted for brexit, who voted for trump etc will soon realise that the new boss is the same as the old boss. Then what?

 

You said in a previous post that many voted yes to indy because they had nothing left to lose.

And in this post you say trump and brexit voters will realise its just the same boss.

Surely by that logic if Scotland voted indy theyd still have the same boss.

Brexit and trump you say is misguided anti establishment vote from the disenfranchised.

Is Scottish nationalism also?

 

Not trying to argue as such boris and i agree with much of what you say regarding capitalism burning itself out.

[jake]

Agreed, it's inevitable imo. Independence will follow at some point. Since devolution we've slowly been going that way. At some point we'll be controlling so much ourselves that folk won't really see the purpose of the union within 30 years. All imo.

 

Its the logical thing to do if Scotland wants to progress financially but it will take a change in mindset and out of the EU.

[jack D and coke]

Its the logical thing to do if Scotland wants to progress financially but it will take a change in mindset and out of the EU.

The problem with the way it's going is the tiny steps being taken. It is absolutely inevitable that Scotland will eventually be in charge of its own finances and some of its is down to the amount of people up here who think we're screwed and couldn't stand on our own two feet. The English people look at us thinking we get all their money and the divisions deepen. Our budget will be incrementally cut over years and years until we see no other option. All imo.

The best chance to go Indy has been and gone imo and it'll probably take another 20-30 years of squabbling like bairns before it eventually happens. Then the time to rebuild will take longer when if we'd had the bollocks to do it the pain would've been over long before then.

[Boris]

You said in a previous post that many voted yes to indy because they had nothing left to lose.

And in this post you say trump and brexit voters will realise its just the same boss.

Surely by that logic if Scotland voted indy theyd still have the same boss.

Brexit and trump you say is misguided anti establishment vote from the disenfranchised.

Is Scottish nationalism also?

Not trying to argue as such boris and i agree with much of what you say regarding capitalism burning itself out.

The option of a new, independent Scotland would mean that you are starting from scratch so could reinvigorate the constitution, politics in general, society etc.

 

In other words, once independent, you have a blank canvas and the SNP pretty much loses its reason for being.

[Trapper John McIntyre]

We have the chance to kill off Scottish nationalism

 

 

Just after the Brexit vote I came back from holiday and found a string of messages from Pro UK people. They were worried. Nicola Sturgeon was continually on the television complaining about something or other. Far from encountering systematic bias from the BBC, she was getting encouragement. At least she wasn?t one of those dreadful Brexiteers.

 

People were asking me where have you been. Some were angry that I had encouraged them to vote to leave the EU. Look what you?ve done. The pound will soon be worth nothing. The markets are going to crash. We?re all going to lose our jobs and we?re not going to have a Prime Minister for months. Nicola Sturgeon is going to call a second independence referendum and she?s going to win it. It?s all your fault.

 

 

 

There is something feverish about news at the moment. It must be to do with it being on all the time. They have to fill up the time with something. When there is a plane crash there are endless interviews with experts who know absolutely nothing about what has happened. When there is a budget there are continual speculations about what will be in it. Why not just wait a few hours and find out? Well so too with the EU referendum. There was endless noise. Much of it was just people complaining about the result and signalling that they were not and never had been a Brexiteer.

 

Scotland didn?t vote to stay in the EU, nor did England and Wales votes to leave. None of these places are members of the EU. Try counting the members if you are unsure. Scotland is no more  a member of the EU than is Aberdeenshire or Antrim. When the Scottish Assembly was established it was on the basis that it had power over certain matters and didn?t have power over certain other matters. That is what the majority of people in Scotland voted for. Foreign affairs have never been devolved. International relations take place between independent sovereign nation states. Many people in Scotland would prefer that Scotland was such a state. But again we had a vote on this and they lost.

 

The endless noise from Nicola Sturgeon is based on a simple mistake. It is of course a deliberate mistake. She thinks that if she acts as if she were the leader of a sovereign independent nation state she is more likely to become one. But really Scottish nationalists ought continually to be reminded of a simple matter of logic. You cannot become what you already are. If you already are independent, why are you campaigning for it? But then Sturgeon?s grievance collapses. She is complaining about something that was never within her remit and which the electorate in Scotland has more than once decided not to give her the power to control. Until and unless Scotland becomes independent it will not be able to have foreign relations with other sovereign independent nation states.  

 

Most news and most comment about news is trivial. The reason for this is that most news will be forgotten a year from now. Political comment likewise is usually of no consequence. There was endless comment during the last General Election about what would happen if there were a hung Parliament. Today there is a lot of noise about Theresa May?s trousers. Nicola Sturgeon?s talking head after the Brexit vote was of no more consequence than these lederhosen. It is vital to see through the day to day noise and try to think about long term consequences. What matters is not that an argument works today, but that it works a year from now.

 

Nicola Sturgeon talks about all sorts of conditions that must be met or else she will call an independence referendum. This is all noise. There is only one condition. Can she win it? 

 

The whole narrative is ludicrous. Supposedly the UK Government has to make all sorts of concessions to the SNP or else Nicola Sturgeon will do what she wants to do more than anything else in the world, i.e. have another independence referendum. But let?s say the UK Government gave the SNP everything they could possibly dream of. Imagine if the Scottish Parliament was given even more powers, and even more money. Imagine if there was another Constitutional Convention and Gordon Brown made another vow. Imagine if the UK became a federal state. Imagine if all these things happened would it kill of the hydra of Scottish nationalism. Would the SNP cease to want independence?

 

All sorts of weird and wonderful schemes are dreamed up by which Scotland somehow gets to stay in the EU or the Single Market. These are then presented as the condition for the SNP not calling a second independence referendum. But what if Scotland were given this special status? Would this mean that we wouldn?t have a second referendum five years from now or ten years from now? Of course it wouldn?t. So why bother. We have to learn the lesson that there is no appeasing nationalism. There is nothing the SNP wants except independence. So no more Constitutional Conventions please, the last one has done enough damage. The UK needs more unity. We need to go in the opposite direction to the one in which the SNP wants to travel.

 

So cut through the noise coming from Nicola Sturgeon?s mouth. Jabber, jabber, jabber Scotland ? jabber, jabber, jabber ? independence. The only thing that matters is whether what she wants is what the electorate in Scotland wants.

 

Again it is important to look at matters from a more long term perspective. There were a few opinion polls in June and July that showed support for Scottish independence had increased. This was one of the reasons why people were writing to me in a panic. But polls go up and down and anyway they are wildly inaccurate. What matters is the fundamentals. Leaving the EU makes Scottish independence harder.

 

Voting for Brexit in the short term angered quite a lot of Scots who found themselves on the losing side of the argument. It angered a lot of people in the rest of the UK too. Naturally this had a short term effect on opinion polls. But just like news, these day to day emotions are trivial. This is human nature. We get angry, but then we get bored. Each of us had a huge emotional reaction to Brexit, but it was also complex. I was pleased, but scared and uncertain. Would the scare stories come true? For the first month I read everything I could about Brexit, but then I got on with my life. I stopped following every detail. Above all I stopped listening to Nicola Sturgeon.

 

The last six months hasn?t been a disaster for the UK. Perhaps next year will be. Lots of people seem desperate for leaving the EU to go as badly as possible. It?s a peculiar sort of masochism. Above all it?s peculiar if you want the UK to remain intact.

 

Most Scots just got on with their lives in the past few months. Whichever way we voted in the EU referendum we got on with daily life. We put the debate behind us. It is for this reason that support for Scottish independence has not increased and instead has fallen. I didn?t take part in the SNP?s national survey. But then I don?t know anyone else who did. Apparently SNP activists were going to ask all their friends. That seems an excellent method of coming up with an unbiased sample. I?d love to know what the results were, but the SNP won?t tell me. But then again I don?t need them to tell me. Imagine if two million Scots had told the SNP that they were desperate for another independence referendum. Would the results be secret under those circumstances?

 

Some disappointed Remainers will continue to try to prevent Brexit or to turn it into leaving in name only. They will fail. But they might help the SNP. 2016 was a year of revolutions and the momentum from this is liable to continue into 2017. The UK electorate is sick of an establishment that has ignored its legitimate concerns for decades. That is the fundamental thing that happened this year. That is the thing that will remain news a year from now. In time it may even topple the Scottish establishment. Who are they? Well they have been in power for quite a long time now.

 

The EU apparently wants to be as nasty to Britain as it can be. Again some Remainers will cheer them on. They will be delighted that the EU wants to make leaving as unpleasant as possible that it considers those who attempt to escape as deserving severe punishment. I get the impression some Remainers think that the EU is really called Stalag Luft III and that Brexiteers deserve to be shot by machine guns in order to discourage the others. But this too won?t work. Once you have turned your beloved EU into a prison, you have lost the argument. What?s more the revolution is contagious.

 

We have seen off worse than the EU and we have also been isolated before with the whole of Europe against us. This just helps British unity.

 

 

 

The SNP thinks that Scots prefer the EU to the UK but they are mistaken. We all want free trade and we all want to be able to live and work in Europe. But few indeed of us want more than this from the EU. When did you last watch a debate in the EU Parliament? Some of us vaguely think of ourselves as internationalists. But Scots who want to create a border between England and Scotland are a peculiar sort of internationalist.

 

What we want from the EU is no more than we are willing to give them in return. If they allow us to live in their country, then we will allow a similar number to live in ours. If they trade freely with us, we will trade freely with them. That is the essence of the matter. The rest is noise. You should not have to be ruled by someone in order to trade freely with them. Moreover you shouldn?t have to pay to do so. Paying for free trade means that it is not free.

 

Brexit makes the choice for Scottish nationalists particularly delightful. Do you want to live in a Britain that is not ruled by the EU or do you prefer to be an ?independent? Scotland subject to ever closer union more and more ruled by Brussels and ultimately by Berlin? Do you want to end up in a different trading bloc to your closest trade partner? Do you think a place with five million people will get a better deal from our European neighbours than a place with sixty five million people? Do you think that the UK leaving the EU makes it more or less likely that they would share a currency with Scotland? If Scotland were in the Single Market, but England was not would there have to be customs at Gretna? Do you know that the EU countries that want to discourage secession will even allow Scotland to join in the short term? How sure are you that the EU will even exist in ten years? The Visegr?d Group don?t seem very keen on being bossed around and Italy has become the new Greece.

 

Brexit forces Scottish nationalists to choose. It makes the disadvantages of Scottish independence more acute. It makes any split from the other parts of the UK more fundamental and deeper. If we can make Brexit work, if we can show that prosperity awaits the UK outside the EU, we have the chance to kill off Scottish nationalism. So all Pro UK people should work together to get the best Brexit deal possible. The Scottish nationalists would love it if Brexit were to fail. They have the excuse that they hate Britain. Do you?

 

[Mr Brightside]

Agreed, it's inevitable imo. Independence will follow at some point. Since devolution we've slowly been going that way. At some point we'll be controlling so much ourselves that folk won't really see the purpose of the union within 30 years. All imo.

Or we might be controlling enough that people won't see the point in going for full independence, over some advantages of staying in a federalised union.

[Mr Brightside]

The option of a new, independent Scotland would mean that you are starting from scratch so could reinvigorate the constitution, politics in general, society etc.

 

In other words, once independent, you have a blank canvas and the SNP pretty much loses its reason for being.

The issue there is you are relying on the political establishment of Scotland to behave differently than other western countries and I see no evidence that this would be the case.

[Boris]

The issue there is you are relying on the political establishment of Scotland to behave differently than other western countries and I see no evidence that this would be the case.

Then it's up to the people. They, after all, will have voted for independence.