Brexit?

[Space Mackerel]

Cant wait for jakes imminent meltdown [emoji23]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Boris]

Didn't parliament vote overwhelmingly to hold a binding referendum? I don't remember the "subject to ratification by parliament if it gives the wrong answer" qualification.

 

Not sure how binding a referendum is, but this isn't about the result, it is about Parliamnet triggering article 50, rather than the givernment, and also parliamentary approval of the deal struck.

 

As I understand it at least.

[mullen13]

Seems the markets have taken an unexpected nosedive after this news?

[Rudi-Robertson]

What a carry on

[Seymour M Hersh]

Not sure how binding a referendum is, but this isn't about the result, it is about Parliamnet triggering article 50, rather than the givernment, and also parliamentary approval of the deal struck.

 

As I understand it at least.

 

It is though. A lawyer funded by a Investment fund manager has found a way to possibly scupper the democratic vote of the electorate. no matter how much they bang on about it being only about Parliamentary Democracy it is really about their refusal to accept the decision.

[Rudi-Robertson]

Maybe we can get a judge to go over the Birkirkara result seen as it wasn't the one we wanted

[Boris]

It is though. A lawyer funded by a Hedge fund manager has found a way to possibly scupper the democratic vote of the electorate. no matter how much they bang on about it being only about Parliamentary Democracy it is really about their refusal to accept the decision.

 

Where in the referendum did it state that we had to leave the Eu and also to leave the single market based on no freedom of movement of people?

 

We could do a Norway, we would still have left the EU, have access to the single market and as a consequence still have freedom of movement.

 

That is for parliament to decide, as the referendum never asked us that.

[mullen13]

All I want is something to reverse the downward spiral of us becoming poorer every single day.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Where in the referendum did it state that we had to leave the Eu and also to leave the single market based on no freedom of movement of people?

 

We could do a Norway, we would still have left the EU, have access to the single market and as a consequence still have freedom of movement.

 

That is for parliament to decide, as the referendum never asked us that.

 

No it didn't ask us those particular questions. It was a simple in or out and the country chose out. But now the remain people tell us we (poor deluded fools) leavers didn't actually know what we were voting for. 

[Francis Albert]

Not sure how binding a referendum is, but this isn't about the result, it is about Parliamnet triggering article 50, rather than the givernment, and also parliamentary approval of the deal struck.

 

As I understand it at least.

I don't think there would have been any dispute about how binding it was if the vote had gone the "right" way.

[Francis Albert]

Where in the referendum did it state that we had to leave the Eu and also to leave the single market based on no freedom of movement of people?

 

We could do a Norway, we would still have left the EU, have access to the single market and as a consequence still have freedom of movement.

 

That is for parliament to decide, as the referendum never asked us that.

Thanks for defining "soft Brexit", something that has always puzzled me. It means remain without any representation in the EU institutions and acceptance of EU rules. That was what the referendum was all about? Right.

[Adam Murray]

Where in the referendum did it state that we had to leave the Eu and also to leave the single market based on no freedom of movement of people?

 

We could do a Norway, we would still have left the EU, have access to the single market and as a consequence still have freedom of movement.

 

That is for parliament to decide, as the referendum never asked us that.

 

 

Pretty straight forward to me, Leave the European Union meaning the whole shebang, start afresh and make new deals.

[Rudi-Robertson]

No it didn't ask us those particular questions. It was a simple in or out and the country chose out. But now the remoan people tell us we (poor deluded racist fools) leavers didn't actually know what we were voting for.

FTFY

[Boris]

No it didn't ask us those particular questions. It was a simple in or out and the country chose out. But now the remain people tell us we (poor deluded fools) leavers didn't actually know what we were voting for. 

 

That's irrelevant to the point of parliamentary sovereignty though, isn't it?

 

I don't think there would have been any dispute about how binding it was if the vote had gone the "right" way.

 

Again, no-one is disputing the result.

 

Had remain won, I'm sure we would have another referendum on it in the future as UKIP would have capitalised on it.

 

We will still leave the EU, this judgement does not overturn the result.

 

It merely says that it is Parliament who invoke article 50.  Isn't this a sign that post referendum our Parliament is "taking back control"????

[Adam Murray]

Research by the Electoral Commission confirmed that its recommended question "was clear and straightforward for voters, and was the most neutral wording from the range of options ... considered and tested", citing responses to its consultation by a diverse range of consultees.^[84] The proposed question was accepted by the government in September 2015, shortly before the bill's third reading.^[85] The question that appeared on ballot papers in the referendum before the electorate under the act will be in was:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

 

 

 

[Boris]

Thanks for defining "soft Brexit", something that has always puzzled me. It means remain without any representation in the EU institutions and acceptance of EU rules. That was what the referendum was all about? Right.

 

The Norway option is one route.  We could negotiate our own deal, but this is (as I see it) all about being able to remain in the single market.  If that happens we need to accept free movement of people.

 

To take the quantum leap from leave EU to hard brexit is a bit disengenuous, imo.

[Boris]

 

Pretty straight forward to me, Leave the European Union meaning the whole shebang, start afresh and make new deals.

 

To you, fair enough, but that wasn't categorically stated now, was it?

[Rudi-Robertson]

So that'll be Indyref2 off anaw then?

[Adam Murray]

To you, fair enough, but that wasn't categorically stated now, was it?

 

 

You're attempting to muddy the waters here though aren't you?

 

Are you saying that during the campaign of the referendum you thought a 'Leave the European Union' wasn't really a leave, and vice versa?

 

Are you really trying to say that people never understood the question on the ballot paper?

 

It's clear that no one knew what was going to happen in the event of a Leave vote, but to start stating that it wasn't 'categorically stated' is, as I said, just trying to muddy the waters.

 

How would you have had the question put, so that some of the 'thick' Leave voters would have understanded it better?

[Space Mackerel]

You're attempting to muddy the waters here though aren't you?

 

Are you saying that during the campaign of the referendum you thought a 'Leave the European Union' wasn't really a leave, and vice versa?

 

Are you really trying to say that people never understood the question on the ballot paper?

 

It's clear that no one knew what was going to happen in the event of a Leave vote, but to start stating that it wasn't 'categorically stated' is, as I said, just trying to muddy the waters.

 

How would you have had the question put, so that some of the 'thick' Leave voters would have understanded it better?

You could've worded it along the lines of "are you a racist xenophobic arsehole?"

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Boris]

You're attempting to muddy the waters here though aren't you?

 

Are you saying that during the campaign of the referendum you thought a 'Leave the European Union' wasn't really a leave, and vice versa?

 

Are you really trying to say that people never understood the question on the ballot paper?

 

It's clear that no one knew what was going to happen in the event of a Leave vote, but to start stating that it wasn't 'categorically stated' is, as I said, just trying to muddy the waters.

 

How would you have had the question put, so that some of the 'thick' Leave voters would have understanded it better?

 

I wouldn't have asked it in the first place, but....

 

Wasn't really a leave?  What does that even mean?  Are you saying that all the people that voted to leave, voted for what has become known as "hard Brexit"?

 

Let me ask though, is Norway a member of the European Union?

[doctor jambo]

ITs dead in the water now.

Brexit was never going to deliver immigration restriction- and thank goodness for that!

 

There is no way MP's will vote for Brexit....

[Francis Albert]

The Norway option is one route.  We could negotiate our own deal, but this is (as I see it) all about being able to remain in the single market.  If that happens we need to accept free movement of people.

 

To take the quantum leap from leave EU to hard brexit is a bit disengenuous, imo.

To suggest that leave could possibly mean (or could have been understood as meaning) retaining all EU rules and regulations and all future changes to those rules and regulations (with no say) is the real quantum leap.

[Adam Murray]

I wouldn't have asked it in the first place, but....

 

Wasn't really a leave?  What does that even mean?  Are you saying that all the people that voted to leave, voted for what has become known as "hard Brexit"?

 

Let me ask though, is Norway a member of the European Union?

 

 

I personally, during the referendum campaign, thought that Leave meant Leave, and thought it was pretty clear from each side either making promises they couldn't keep, or by scaremongering, that Leave meant Leave.

 

What did you take it to mean Boris, honestly?

 

And no, Norway is not a member of the EU, but is a member of the EEA

[tweegy]

.

[Francis Albert]

ITs dead in the water now.

Brexit was never going to deliver immigration restriction- and thank goodness for that!

 

There is no way MP's will vote for Brexit....

So when MPs voted by a large majority to hold the referendum they did so without any intention of accepting a Leave vote?

 

I thought politicians credibility was as low as it could get but that would take it to new depths.

[Seymour M Hersh]

FTFY

 

Are you accusing me of being a racist?  

[Seymour M Hersh]

That's irrelevant to the point of parliamentary sovereignty though, isn't it? - That's smoke and mirrors for not getting the result they wanted.

 

 

Again, no-one is disputing the result. Really that's exactly what they're doing via this loophole.

 

Had remain won, I'm sure we would have another referendum on it in the future as UKIP would have capitalised on it. not a chance but I suppose UKIP would have still had a reason for being.

 

We will still leave the EU, this judgement does not overturn the result. I hope you're right.

 

It merely says that it is Parliament who invoke article 50.  Isn't this a sign that post referendum our Parliament is "taking back control"???? Nice try Boris but this isn't Parliament it's remainers try every which way they can to scupper the vote.

[Francis Albert]

And to be clear if MP's fail to vote for triggering Article 50 (which is what this is about) they will be deciding to remain without even a negotiation of the terms on which we might leave, since the EU will not negotiate terms for leaving unless and until Article 50 is triggered. There would be no "soft Brexit" whatever that means.

[Rudi-Robertson]

Are you accusing me of being a racist?

Off course not but the remoaners certainly will be

 

Edit: assuming you voted leave

[Seymour M Hersh]

Off course not but the remoaners certainly will be

 

Edit: assuming you voted leave

 

I see. I did. 

[Rudi-Robertson]

I see. I did.

Likewise myself

[Fxxx the SPFL]

And to be clear if MP's fail to vote for triggering Article 50 (which is what this is about) they will be deciding to remain without even a negotiation of the terms on which we might leave, since the EU will not negotiate terms for leaving unless and until Article 50 is triggered. There would be no "soft Brexit" whatever that means.

Good hopefully the pound bounces back and we won't be hitting 4% inflation next year cos at the moment it's one big downward spiral that has no end game.

[Rudi-Robertson]

You could've worded it along the lines of "are you a racist xenophobic arsehole?"

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's typical of an narrow minded loony lefty like yourself

[Mister T]

You could've worded it along the lines of "are you a racist xenophobic arsehole?"

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The usual shan chat from you.

[Space Mackerel]

That's typical of an narrow minded loony lefty like yourself

The usual shan chat from you.

Dunno where I get these ideas from? [emoji849]

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Boris]

So when MPs voted by a large majority to hold the referendum they did so without any intention of accepting a Leave vote?

 

I thought politicians credibility was as low as it could get but that would take it to new depths.

 

The depths plumbed were by Call me Dave in his vain attempt to paper over the cracks in his party.  Essentially, he was promising the world but legally unable to fulfil it in the event of a Leave victory because, constitutionally Parliament is sovereign.  So whether you like it or not, legally Parliament has to trigger article 50, irrespective of referendum results or what the Government want to do.

 

As it happens, I suspect that most MP's will vote for it.  The SNP won't, obviously, but that is a different argument.

 

What it highlights is the shambles that is May's government.

 

 

That's irrelevant to the point of parliamentary sovereignty though, isn't it? - That's smoke and mirrors for not getting the result they wanted.

 

 

Again, no-one is disputing the result. Really that's exactly what they're doing via this loophole.

 

Had remain won, I'm sure we would have another referendum on it in the future as UKIP would have capitalised on it. not a chance but I suppose UKIP would have still had a reason for being.

 

We will still leave the EU, this judgement does not overturn the result. I hope you're right.

 

It merely says that it is Parliament who invoke article 50.  Isn't this a sign that post referendum our Parliament is "taking back control"???? Nice try Boris but this isn't Parliament it's remainers try every which way they can to scupper the vote.

 

 

See above reply to FA

 

Bottom line, only Parliament has the legal right to trigger article 50.

[Francis Albert]

Good hopefully the pound bounces back and we won't be hitting 4% inflation next year cos at the moment it's one big downward spiral that has no end game.

So you think the Leave vote should be ignored even to the extent of making no attempt to negotiate terms for leaving?

 

I suppose it would set an interesting precedent for future referenda on other issues.

 

And the predicted "big downward spiral" hasn't actually happened.

[Nookie Bear]

Dunno where I get these ideas from? [emoji849]

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Ignorant, yes.

 

Racist? Don't see it.

[Thunderstruck]

Didn't parliament vote overwhelmingly to hold a binding referendum? I don't remember the "subject to ratification by parliament if it gives the wrong answer" qualification.

"Binding" doesn't seem to be an adjective now associated with "referendum".

[mullen13]

Contrary to Boris I actually feel the tories have played a blinder the last couple of years.

 

They have eliminated political opposition. Labour party tries to go further left to counteract and ends up weak and in disarray. SNP gets a referendum and loses which should put that issue to bed in their eyes but continue to draw SNP votes away from labour.. Have an EU referendum which wins and effectively disbands UKIP which was drawing thousands of tory voters away, 

 

Looks a much stronger position for the tories.

[doctor jambo]

MP's will vote to remain. Its really that simple.

It will be justified by the fact everyone voted blind - they had no idea what Brexit would really be like.

Were pensioners not shielded from inflation and cuts they too would vote remain, and that would be that

[OBE]

ITs dead in the water now.

Brexit was never going to deliver immigration restriction- and thank goodness for that!

 

There is no way MP's will vote for Brexit....

Yes they will, they have no option, it's what their electorate decided.

[Francis Albert]

The depths plumbed were by Call me Dave in his vain attempt to paper over the cracks in his party.  Essentially, he was promising the world but legally unable to fulfil it in the event of a Leave victory because, constitutionally Parliament is sovereign.  So whether you like it or not, legally Parliament has to trigger article 50, irrespective of referendum results or what the Government want to do.

 

As it happens, I suspect that most MP's will vote for it.  The SNP won't, obviously, but that is a different argument.

 

What it highlights is the shambles that is May's government.

 

 

See above reply to FA

 

Bottom line, only Parliament has the legal right to trigger article 50.

I was responding to the suggestion that MPs would never vote for Brexit which I took to mean would not vote for triggering Article 50. Like you I think the majority will vote for triggering Article 50. To ignore the Leave vote to the extent of not even bothering find out what the terms for Leaving might be would surely beyond even the brazen cheek of MPs.

[Francis Albert]

MP's will vote to remain. Its really that simple.

It will be justified by the fact everyone voted blind - they had no idea what Brexit would really be like.

Were pensioners not shielded from inflation and cuts they too would vote remain, and that would be that

It really isn't that simple. At this stage it is not about voting to remain. It is about voting to trigger Article 50 and beginning a negotiation of what the terms for leaving might be.

[jack D and coke]

Tbh I was always expecting them to gerrymander a result. The media slowly releasing the impending doom that is to befall us all once we're out, the crashing of the currency all intended to give you just enough time to start thinking we've made the wrong decision. You are NOT allowed to vote against the EU it's as simple as that.

It really creeps me out.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boris]

Tbh I was always expecting them to gerrymander a result. The media slowly releasing the impending doom that is to befall us all once we're out, the crashing of the currency all intended to give you just enough time to start thinking we've made the wrong decision. You are NOT allowed to vote against the EU it's as simple as that.

It really creeps me out.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jake]

Cant wait for jakes imminent meltdown [emoji23]

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

No meltdown .

Unfortunately i expected this.

Another dismissal of democracy .

The author of article 50 calling for parliament to ignore the result.

 

Full onslaught by the press with every imaginable bad story being blamed on brexit.

 

And freedom of movement the holy grail being used to sweeten CETA to hold us in a corrupt organisation.

That keeps the poor poor and the rich richer.

 

No meltdown makeral just reinforced cynicism.

[jack D and coke]

No meltdown .

Unfortunately i expected this.

Another dismissal of democracy .

The author of article 50 calling for parliament to ignore the result.

 

Full onslaught by the press with every imaginable bad story being blamed on brexit.

 

And freedom of movement the holy grail being used to sweeten CETA to hold us in a corrupt organisation.

That keeps the poor poor and the rich richer.

 

No meltdown makeral just reinforced cynicism.

You could imagine my old pal spacey boy literally becoming a seething dribbling mess if this ever happened to his Indy dream. The Yes voters didn't know what they voting for or some other garbage.

For some reason the irony is lost on him.

Ain't that right pal[emoji1]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pcw1874]

I'm unfortunately resigned to the fact the Government have a mandate to leave Europe, that being said, in a democracy, it's right and proper that Parliament should vote and scrutinise how that is done.

 

The Government only have a mandate to leave, not the terms on how that is negotiated.