Celtic & Sevco bid to join English league. Again. (merged)

[doctor jambo]

I find the whole "its not worth winning without the OF"

mind blowing

 

So our entire existence is only validated by theirs?

 

What are we? Feckin Hibs?

[Seymour M Hersh]

I suspect the arseholes at Hampden would welcome and give every assistance to the toxic twins heading south and try their damnedest to have them leave reserve sides to compete up here (which we as fans would have to fight tooth and nail to stop happening).  However if down south also showed interest in attracting the likes of us, Aberdeen, hibs and maybe a couple of others they'd suddenly shit their pants because Fifa would surely look at ending a separate Scottish team and ergo the blazers jolly's etc. However this is all hypothetical pish as I doubt if left to the teams down south that they would vote to invite the toxics into their league system.

[Big Slim Stylee]

1. I want hearts to go with them. We would not have a marketable produce if they go - kids will gravitate even further towards them .. To suggest otherwise is utter delusion..

 

 

Not a chance in hell we'll be considered.

[CollyWolly]

I find the whole "its not worth winning without the OF"

mind blowing

 

So our entire existence is only validated by theirs?

 

What are we? Feckin Hibs?

Its not just winning it that matters though. Its about whether we can sustain the club at decent levels whilst the external funding melts away. And not just us, the other clubs in the league have to be in a healthy state with less external funding, most of them not as financially independent as we currently are and a number of them struggling and would struggle even more with reduced TV money and sponsorship, not to say no visits from the OF per season. Take a club like Kilmarnock. Losing the OF revenue, and reduced TV revenue and reduced sponsorship would probably kill them off. I bet they are not the only vulnerable ones by a long shot.

 

Whether its attractive and feels good to be in Scottish football post OF isn't just about how we'd feel if we won the league. That's a two day feeling at the end of the day and you can be as delirious or as 'meh' as you like about what it meant to win it with No OF. The problem is sustainability of the bigger clubs. To me that means starting again with a blank piece of paper at Ground Zero, sharing the resources more fairly, upselling the product, doing whatever it takes to get the best TV and sponsorhip deals, and it aint going to be as simple as Hearts trotting up to win the league and all is well with the world.

[amadjambo]

I find the whole "its not worth winning without the OF"

mind blowing

 

So our entire existence is only validated by theirs?

 

What are we? Feckin Hibs?

You are missing the point. Winning the league should mean you are the champions of your country. We wouldn't be. It would be devalued beyond recognition.

[doctor jambo]

You are missing the point. Winning the league should mean you are the champions of your country. We wouldn't be. It would be devalued beyond recognition.

We still would be champions of our country- it would be our two parasitic Irish clubs that would have left .

Two fat ticks that have detached and moved to suck the blood from a new host

[redm]

I wouldn't miss them one bit, and I would love competing to win a league without them for as long as I'm around to enjoy football. They don't define the Scottish game for me, and there's no additional prestige attached to wins against them because of who they are - the extra satisfaction comes from beating the teams that we often struggle against. They're a benchmark because of the success they have fairly routinely against us, and nothing more. If Aberdeen were to start giving us a regular hiding, I'd get the same buzz from pulling back results against them.

 

Despite all the obvious pros, it goes without saying that there would be a fair few cons to them leaving, but they're risks I hope we can afford to take. Might be difficult for a few other clubs though. Speaking of which, I wouldn't trust a good few of our fellow SPFL clubs if it came down to the OF leaving and the rest of us holding a vote on whether or not to allow OF reserve teams to compete here. Doncaster and co would fight tooth and nail to keep an OF presence of some sort, and a good few clubs would sell out just to keep OF cash coming in.

[redm]

I find the whole "its not worth winning without the OF"

mind blowing

 

So our entire existence is only validated by theirs?

 

What are we? Feckin Hibs?

Absolutely this.

[Jammy T]

I find the whole "its not worth winning without the OF"

mind blowing

 

So our entire existence is only validated by theirs?

 

What are we? Feckin Hibs?

This.

 

It's quite pathetic.

[Jammy T]

You are missing the point. Winning the league should mean you are the champions of your country. We wouldn't be. It would be devalued beyond recognition.

We would be champions of our national league.

 

Being champions of a country is meaningless. Leicester are not known as Champions of England they are winners of the Barclay's Premiership.

[Back to 2005]

Take out the two biggest clubs out any league and it would devalue winning it. Much as I despise the old firm we can't afford to be stuck in something that would have the same value as the league of Wales.

[Son Of Anarchy]

I'd enjoy football much more without them tbh. Bye bigots, hope you fail miserably. Shows how laughable the gfa are. Spend a lifetime bending over for the arsecheeks boaby and caring not a jot for the rest of us. They want to leave so let them go and vote out every last ******* one of those gits in suits.

[Gambo]

Are we that scared of Rangers and Celtic that we are saying please please please go, you are too big and too good for us and we want to have better chances of winning things so please please go.

 

We are their equals and should be going with them(& others to create a British League) or staying put with them.

[Gambo]

We would be champions of our national league.

 

Being champions of a country is meaningless. Leicester are not known as Champions of England they are winners of the Barclay's Premiership.

A National League that has teams from that Nation playing in another countries league because they are bigger than what was left behind.

[Gambo]

Take out the two biggest clubs out any league and it would devalue winning it. Much as I despise the old firm we can't afford to be stuck in something that would have the same value as the league of Wales.

This.

[Alva-Jambo]

Sevco feels they are an English team already.  

 

GO -  GTF  in fact,  with my blessing.  ! 

[DH1986]

Are we that scared of Rangers and Celtic that we are saying please please please go, you are too big and too good for us and we want to have better chances of winning things so please please go.

 

We are their equals and should be going with them(& others to create a British League) or staying put with them.

 

Lets be honest.....

 

Apart from the odd season here and there we have been anything but footballing equals to Celtic or Rangers for decades.

[The Don]

I find the whole "its not worth winning without the OF"

mind blowing

 

So our entire existence is only validated by theirs?

 

What are we? Feckin Hibs?

Don't think anyone has said they wouldn't be happy to win the league without the OF. Let's get something straight though if the OF ever did go to England Ibrox and Parkhead are still going to be in Glasgow. Both teams are still going to be Scottish teams. We will be winning a league without the top 2 teams in Scotland playing in that league meaning the league is devalued we or anyone else winning the league could never truly say we are the best team in Scotland. Hard pill to swallow for some but thats the facts.

 

This is what people are talking about, when we say the league would be devalued. Not that we wouldn't still enjoy winning the league. The product we watch each week will deteriorate as well as outside funding dries up and becomes much lower. Players we can afford at present we won't be able to afford that level in a post OF league. Other clubs will suffer far worse and it's almost a certainty some clubs will fold. There are far too many clubs IMO in Scotland and many of them are reliant on the sponsorship and TV revenues filtering down to keep them going at the moment. Cut that lifeline off and clubs will be gone.

 

There are so many knock on effects to the OF leaving that people refuse to see because they are blinkered by their hatred of them.

 

 

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[Irufushi]

Not this again,

[Shanks said no]

Given that the chances are about 50/50 that Scotland will be an independent nation in a few years time, isn't it madness that 2 or more clubs will leave only to be forced back if it happens?

 

Sort of a reverse Bundesliga situation from 93/94

[a11ank]

Couple of things.

 

Sevco think they are English. Celtic think they are Irish. Good riddance!

 

Imagine a full Tynecastle every week and no baggage and bile being belted out from the bigot brothers. Brilliant!

 

Think about what a hard time referees are going to have deciding who they will bias towards...

 

Shame we need to wait until 2019. Bring it on!

[skinnybob72]

If they were to amalgamate the English & Scottish leagues I would be quite happy for Hearts to join a British set-up. However, I would hate to see us (along with Hibs & Aberdeen) hanging on to the coat tails of the OF leaving the rest of Scottish Football to die. I don't want to see us with an attitude of "I'm all right Jack" towards the rest of the teams up here.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Don't think anyone has said they wouldn't be happy to win the league without the OF. Let's get something straight though if the OF ever did go to England Ibrox and Parkhead are still going to be in Glasgow. Both teams are still going to be Scottish teams. We will be winning a league without the top 2 teams in Scotland playing in that league meaning the league is devalued we or anyone else winning the league could never truly say we are the best team in Scotland. Hard pill to swallow for some but thats the facts.

 

This is what people are talking about, when we say the league would be devalued. Not that we wouldn't still enjoy winning the league. The product we watch each week will deteriorate as well as outside funding dries up and becomes much lower. Players we can afford at present we won't be able to afford that level in a post OF league. Other clubs will suffer far worse and it's almost a certainty some clubs will fold. There are far too many clubs IMO in Scotland and many of them are reliant on the sponsorship and TV revenues filtering down to keep them going at the moment. Cut that lifeline off and clubs will be gone.

 

There are so many knock on effects to the OF leaving that people refuse to see because they are blinkered by their hatred of them.

 

 

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The team winning the top league in Scotland would be the best team in Scotland PLAYING in the Scottish league. The product would be fine because the best Scottish youngsters wouldn't sign for the two @$$ cheeks as they'd never get a game. Both Newco and Celtic would have to sign players from England or abroad to compete. Even more than they do now. There will be no 40% split each of all monies from TV and sponsors. Each team they're up against will get the same share. Dubious refereeing decisions will not be so weighted to them. Let them go. Gone for good though. No road back. No safety net to fall back on to. Gone and be done with you. It might even help the country as a whole.

[Gambo]

If they were to amalgamate the English & Scottish leagues I would be quite happy for Hearts to join a British set-up. However, I would hate to see us (along with Hibs & Aberdeen) hanging on to the coat tails of the OF leaving the rest of Scottish Football to die. I don't want to see us with an attitude of "I'm all right Jack" towards the rest of the teams up here.

The "rest of Scottish Football" IS dead, they all hang on the coat tails of the old firm to survive.

[kila]

Don't think anyone has said they wouldn't be happy to win the league without the OF. Let's get something straight though if the OF ever did go to England Ibrox and Parkhead are still going to be in Glasgow. Both teams are still going to be Scottish teams. We will be winning a league without the top 2 teams in Scotland playing in that league meaning the league is devalued we or anyone else winning the league could never truly say we are the best team in Scotland. Hard pill to swallow for some but thats the facts.

 

This is what people are talking about, when we say the league would be devalued. Not that we wouldn't still enjoy winning the league. The product we watch each week will deteriorate as well as outside funding dries up and becomes much lower. Players we can afford at present we won't be able to afford that level in a post OF league. Other clubs will suffer far worse and it's almost a certainty some clubs will fold. There are far too many clubs IMO in Scotland and many of them are reliant on the sponsorship and TV revenues filtering down to keep them going at the moment. Cut that lifeline off and clubs will be gone.

 

There are so many knock on effects to the OF leaving that people refuse to see because they are blinkered by their hatred of them.

 

 

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I think at first there'd be quite a hit and trying to sell our league's TV rights without the OF would be difficult. But there is much more excitement when there's more than just two teams going into the final chapter of the season that could win the league. After the first season without the OF I think interest in the top flight would grow.

 

A more competitive league would help grow spectator attendances (home and away) giving clubs more money though that would take time. It's sad some clubs rely upon OF away fans so much.

 

Also, I think you're a little too sure that Hearts would win a league without the OF. We'd be favourites, but we wouldn't be the only teams looking to pick up the points likely to be dropped against Celtic and (eventually) Rangers. The league would be more competitive, we would not walk it by any means.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Last seasons semi final had 500k viewers, it clashed with West Ham Leicester which had 900k. The old firm is a myth. We live in the Truman show where we are all brain washed into believing we can't survive without them. It's Stockholm syndrome. Let them go and let the pieces fall where they will. Am going to use hibs here as an example. They are getting their biggest home crowds in years, why? Cause they are going to win the league. A league minus the old firm. People are interested as they wanna see their team be successful. The bigger clubs would survive, their fans would insure it. The lesser clubs, Ross county, itc, Hamilton etc may have to drop to part time, so be it.

 

If 20 years ago, you'd said that the top flight in English football would excist minus Derby/Leeds/Notts Forrest/Ipswich you'd have been laughed out the pub. Derby/Notts Forrest/Ipswich/Leeds all have arguably bigger European pedigree than The old firm. 10 years ago if you'd said Man City would've been arguably the 3rd/4th biggest club in Europe you'd have been laughed out the pub. Things change. I will never understand why this country fears change so much.

The European pedigree argument is just nonsense with the possible exception of Forest.

Ipswich in particular is a joke.

 

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[frankblack]

I can't believe people are still arguing over this - its not going to happen.

 

- What has changed since the last six times Celtic and Rangers (RIP) tried it other than the EPL deal is bigger?

- Why would English clubs want to dilute their own income to let them in?

- English football has bigger games and better teams and don't need or want them. Its really that simple.

[tcjambo]

The problem is they would want to field their reserve team in the Scottish league. Under no circumstances should that be allowed. If they go they go for good and with understanding that the SFA will try to develop alternative teams in Glasgow.

[The Don]

The team winning the top league in Scotland would be the best team in Scotland PLAYING in the Scottish league. The product would be fine because the best Scottish youngsters wouldn't sign for the two @$$ cheeks as they'd never get a game. Both Newco and Celtic would have to sign players from England or abroad to compete. Even more than they do now. There will be no 40% split each of all monies from TV and sponsors. Each team they're up against will get the same share. Dubious refereeing decisions will not be so weighted to them. Let them go. Gone for good though. No road back. No safety net to fall back on to. Gone and be done with you. It might even help the country as a whole.

 

You mean like how that happens just now while they are playing in a less attractive league ?

 

Even with the OF taking 40% of revenues at present the remaining amount split between clubs is still more than a 100% amount from TV, sponsorship etc that will be generated in Scotland without the OF.

 

Seriously some people live in a bubble or have no idea whatsoever about Scottish football and how it's run.

 

There would be one slight chance and it's only very small, that would mean a complete overhaul of Scottish football from grassroots through to national setup, all the suits and hangers in would need to be punted and genuine people without an agenda that genuinely have the best interests of our game at heart would need to come in along with experienced marketing people. Even then it would be a monumental task.

 

Scottish football missed its chance 4 years ago, that boat has sailed and the fans are just as much to blame for a lot as well for standing back and accepting things as they are, 4 years ago fan pressure in clubs stopped Sevco being allowed straight back into the SPL. It ended there.

 

 

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[Son Of Anarchy]

I can't believe people are still arguing over this - its not going to happen.

 

- What has changed since the last six times Celtic and Rangers (RIP) tried it other than the EPL deal is bigger?

- Why would English clubs want to dilute their own income to let them in?

- English football has bigger games and better teams and don't need or want them. Its really that simple.

It is yes but we are mpre commenting on the "what if" scenario. Why would the EPL want the arsecheeks? They don't. Why would they want the bigotry? They don't. Why do Scottish clubs? Money through turnstiles unfortunately.

[socrates82]

This idea of attractive and less attractive leagues is absurd.

 

You have the league of the country in which you live - that's it. There are no other leagues. You can't just switch to a different league because it has more money than you! If people on here don't like the Scottish league, do what people in Ireland do and don't support a team in it - follow Man U or Liverpool instead. Most of us also have an English team we follow to get around that.

 

The Scottish league is the Scottish league. It's the national league of Scotland and as such winning it is fantastic no matter who plays in it.

 

The Champions League has warped some people's minds into believing football is all about money and TV.

[Glottis]

Short term it'd be tough for many teams.

Long term it would save Scottish football.

[socrates82]

You are missing the point. Winning the league should mean you are the champions of your country. We wouldn't be. It would be devalued beyond recognition.

 

No it wouldn't because Celtic and Rangers would no longer be Scottish teams in the true sense (if they ever were in the eyes of their own fans). 

[Deevers]

I know money talks, but I can't really see an awful lot of people in charge of English clubs wanting them down south.

 

I have to say though that there might be some merit in a British Football Association. It would at least get rid of the corrupt SFA.

[Mikey1874]

Lets be honest.....

 

Apart from the odd season here and there we have been anything but footballing equals to Celtic or Rangers for decades.

Not decades

 

Since 1890 when league started Rangers and Celtic have dominated aside from short periods.

[socrates82]

If they were to amalgamate the English & Scottish leagues I would be quite happy for Hearts to join a British set-up. However, I would hate to see us (along with Hibs & Aberdeen) hanging on to the coat tails of the OF leaving the rest of Scottish Football to die. I don't want to see us with an attitude of "I'm all right Jack" towards the rest of the teams up here.

 

 

I can just about see the economic reasons for allowing Celtic and Rangers into England, ignoring all the baggage they would bring with them, although I genuinely believe no-one in England wants them.

 

There is no economic or other reason for England to invite a bunch of teams with 14,000 coverage crowds tops (in a very good season) and limited appeal outside their own cities into their league, anymore than we would want to invite Preston North End or Millwall into ours. Even logistically, why would English teams want to travel all the way up here for games? And which English clubs would make way for some Scottish teams?

[socrates82]

I know money talks, but I can't really see an awful lot of people in charge of English clubs wanting them down south.

 

I have to say though that there might be some merit in a British Football Association. It would at least get rid of the corrupt SFA.

 

We'd have to kiss goodbye to separate national teams then. FIFA are dying for an excuse to do that.

 

And what happens when Scotland inevitably becomes independent? All the Scottish teams scurry back?

[The Don]

No it wouldn't because Celtic and Rangers would no longer be Scottish teams in the true sense (if they ever were in the eyes of their own fans).

 

Playing in Glasgow but not Scottish.

 

We Can argue the semantics and petty differences all day long the bottom line is they will be playing in Scotland therefore they will still be Scottish teams. Swansea and Cardiff haven't stopped being Welsh because they play in the English league.

 

Andy Murray hasn't just stopped being Scottish because he has won Wimbledon or plays outside Scotland

 

 

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[Psychedelicropcircle]

Hopefully they will dismantle their stadiums and take them over the border when they go.

 

Willing to empty my van and chip in with the removals ??

[socrates82]

 

Playing in Glasgow but not Scottish.

 

We Can argue the semantics and petty differences all day long the bottom line is they will be playing in Scotland therefore they will still be Scottish teams. Swansea and Cardiff haven't stopped being Welsh because they play in the English league.

 

 

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It's stopped them being Welsh league teams. That's the point. And as we all know Rangers and Celtic don't exactly promote or project Scottish identities.

[Hendricks]

IF and it is an absolutely enormous IF they ever get the opportunity to progress through the English leagues we should be looking to do similar. Regardless of peoples fervent hate of them Scottish football is financially messed without them. Hearts have the fan base to cope without them but the same can't be said of many other clubs and the income from TV would nosedive. Sure, we may win the SPL every couple of years or even completely dominate it but any titles will be seriously hollow and meaningless at least for those of a certain generation. Only winning it with them in it will hold any value.

 

Hearts could be a very attractive club to players if we were part of any UK wide setup such is the pull of Edinburgh and I have no doubt that we would see our new stand packed to watch us attempt to climb the divisions against new opponents who would all be of similar size and in many cases bigger than the vast majority of clubs we play now.

 

Its probably all nonsense that will never happen but if it does why should Rantic be the only ones involved in an exciting new opportunity. Budge et al should be ensuring Hearts are at the forefront of any discussions should it ever come to pass. 

[The Don]

It's stopped them being Welsh league teams. That's the point. And as we all know Rangers and Celtic don't exactly promote or project Scottish identities.

Correct and the OF would not be Scottish "League" teams BUT they will still be Scottish teams.

 

 

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[socrates82]

IF and it is an absolutely enormous IF they ever get the opportunity to progress through the English leagues we should be looking to do similar. Regardless of peoples fervent hate of them Scottish football is financially messed without them. Hearts have the fan base to cope without them but the same can;t be said of many other clubs and the income from TV would nosedive. Sure, we may win the SPL every couple of years or even completely dominate it but any titles will be seriously hollow and meaningless at least for those of a certain generation. Only winning it with them in it will hold any value.

 

Hearts could be a very attractive club to players if we were part of any UK wide setup such is the pull of Edinburgh and I have no doubt that we would see our new stand packed to watch us attempt to climb the divisions against new opponents who would all be of similar size and in many cases bigger than the vast majority of clubs we play now.

 

Its probably all nonsense that will never happen but if it does why should Rantic be the only ones involved in an exciting new opportunity. Budge et al should be ensuring Hearts are at the forefront of any discussions should it ever come to pass. 

 

No offence, but this comment is everything that is wrong about modern football.

[Deevers]

I can just about see the economic reasons for allowing Celtic and Rangers into England, ignoring all the baggage they would bring with them, although I genuinely believe no-one in England wants them.

 

There is no economic or other reason for England to invite a bunch of teams with 14,000 coverage crowds tops (in a very good season) and limited appeal outside their own cities into their league, anymore than we would want to invite Preston North End or Millwall into ours. Even logistically, why would English teams want to travel all the way up here for games? And which English clubs would make way for some Scottish teams?

 

Funnily enough I think that a successful Hearts Team getting through to the championship down there would pickup full houses week in week out. A bigger share of the TV money would allow for major changes to the stadium. That in turn would allow for a bigger turnover and better players. I honestly don't think that this will ever happen though. I doubt if UEFA or FIFA would support it. I am sure that the Orcs behaviour in Manchester is still fresh in folks minds.

[socrates82]

Correct and the OF would not be Scottish "League" teams BUT they will still be Scottish teams.

 

 

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No, they would be football teams based in Scotland. As they would come under the control of the English FA they would officially be English football clubs from an administrative standpoint (and every standpoint except geographic).

 

For example, when they played in Europe they would be representing England - i.e. the English league - and contributing to their co-efficient, not Scotland's.

 

But they're unlikely to get into Europe if they play in England - at least not for a very long time - so that's a moot point.

[ToadKiller Dog]

They would be representing the FA English leagues if they ever made it to the point of qualifying for Europe ever again .

 

Only the top Scottish league sides would be representing Scottish football and the SFA in Europe .

 

I would be interested to see who would be attracted to play for the ugly sisters in the English Fifth division , only mercenaries and a few lesser intelligent Scottish players would go down there ,the money they would have to spend would be more than there low league rivals but hardly up there with the premiership or the better championship sides .

[Deevers]

We'd have to kiss goodbye to separate national teams then. FIFA are dying for an excuse to do that.

 

And what happens when Scotland inevitably becomes independent? All the Scottish teams scurry back?

 

A hard border with controls would make going to away games a nightmare!

[socrates82]

Funnily enough I think that a successful Hearts Team getting through to the championship down there would pickup full houses week in week out. A bigger share of the TV money would allow for major changes to the stadium. That in turn would allow for a bigger turnover and better players. I honestly don't think that this will ever happen though. I doubt if UEFA or FIFA would support it. I am sure that the Orcs behaviour in Manchester is still fresh in folks minds.

 

But to what end? It's still all relative. Ignoring all the points around losing our entire identity and making it harder for people to watch away games, we'd still have far more chance of wining things in Scotland than England.

 

And I don't see the greater attraction of Hearts vs Bolton over Hearts vs Ross County personally. Tat would be our level.

[socrates82]

A hard border with controls would make going to away games a nightmare!

 

Must have missed the hard border with Ireland. With England pulling everyone out of Europe anyhow, who knows what the borders will look like in 5 years.

[Hendricks]

No offence, but this comment is everything that is wrong about modern football.

 

No offence taken!!!  Care to explain why it is "everything that is wrong about modern football" ?!!!  

 

If you think that winning the SPL will be satisfying with no Rangers or Celtic then thats your prerogative, but for me (and many Hearts or Aberdeen or even Hibs fans) it will be seriously devalued and have nowhere near the same impact. Thats just the way it is.