Celtic & Sevco bid to join English league. Again. (merged)

[CollyWolly]

Hibs? Regularly? lol

I think they could if they were at or near the top of the top league with a chance of winning it. In fact it would be an essential if the OF did leave that the remaining 'Big' clubs maximise their gates and their away supports grow. Whether that means ripping up the page and starting again with a lot of radical changes is something that would need to be looked at.

 

Y'know, things like summer football to get the best TV deal, as someone mentioned already.

 

The first thing I would do on day one is empty Doncaster. That's a good fecking day already !!

[Erik]

I really dunno why we even still have discussions about the possible implications of this nonsense tbh. 

 

Its not likely to happen any time soon (read that as 'ever').

[i8hibsh]

I really dunno why we even still have discussions about the possible implications of this nonsense tbh. 

 

Its not likely to happen any time soon (read that as 'ever').

 

Sadly Erik, money is the only language in the game now.  A fifth English tier will need the Old Firm cash.  However, the 80 teams above them may not see it like that.

[CollyWolly]

Why would a country want a football team that did not sign a player unless he was a protestant until 1989 and a team who's fans support Palestine and ETA and generally seem to support armed militant, separatist groups.

 

I once saw a Rangers fan with "KAI" tattooed on his arm.  I later found out it meant "Kill All Irish" - I mean in the name of **** who would welcome this nonsense to their country?  Towns and cities all over England being infested every week with one or the other.

They, (the football authorities and the TV companies) don't give a toss about stuff like that compared to ???'s. It would be a 'new' experience for the wee towns and cities they would infest but the likes of Dundee and Motherwell and Kilmarnock seem to manage it without civil disobedience. I am sure places like Luton, Grimsby, Tranmere,Torquay etc etc would manage it fine too. And when they get up the leagues, as they would do fairly quickly, all the big clubs cater to the own ST holders with minimal allocations for away fans, so your not going to see 20,000 of them travelling week in week out laying waste to the English landscape.

 

The police down there have been dealing with radge supports for years. West Ham, Millwall, Chelsea. Man Utd, Liverpool. Birmingham. Leeds. Many others who can be a right handful. The only thing they are missing compared with Celtic and Rangers is the politico/religious aspects of it.

 

Its not a barrier (fan conduct) IMO.

[The Don]

Why would a country want a football team that did not sign a player unless he was a protestant until 1989 and a team who's fans support Palestine and ETA and generally seem to support armed militant, separatist groups.

 

I once saw a Rangers fan with "KAI" tattooed on his arm.  I later found out it meant "Kill All Irish" - I mean in the name of **** who would welcome this nonsense to their country?  Towns and cities all over England being infested every week with one or the other.

 

 

Not True

 

Catholics who played for Rangers prior to Mo Johnstone are :

 

Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891?1892), J Tutty (1899?1900), Archie Kyle (1904?1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906?1907), Colin Mainds (1906?1907), Tom Murray (1907?1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914?1918) and John Jackson (1917). Laurie Blyth (1951?1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955?1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985?1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm ? Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984)

 

In fact id we want to be really nit picky about the OF bigotry. Rangers signed a Catholic before Celtic signed a Protestant, furthermore as an aside Hibs were kicked out of the Scottish league for refusing to play Protestant players.

[i8hibsh]

They, (the football authorities and the TV companies) don't give a toss about stuff like that compared to ???'s. It would be a 'new' experience for the wee towns and cities they would infest but the likes of Dundee and Motherwell and Kilmarnock seem to manage it without civil disobedience. I am sure places like Luton, Grimsby, Tranmere,Torquay etc etc would manage it fine too.

Its not a barrier IMO. It should be but it isn't.

 

 

It would be most amusing seeing Celtic and Rangers take their shite to places like Luton, Barnsley, Bristol etc

 

[i8hibsh]

Not True

 

Catholics who played for Rangers prior to Mo Johnstone are :

 

Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891?1892), J Tutty (1899?1900), Archie Kyle (1904?1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906?1907), Colin Mainds (1906?1907), Tom Murray (1907?1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914?1918) and John Jackson (1917). Laurie Blyth (1951?1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955?1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985?1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm ? Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984)

 

 

Not doubting this but I always though Mo Jo was the first catholic signing, if this was not the case then why the pantomime that went with it?  Apart from the 11th hour Celtic steal.

[SwindonJambo]

As has previously been said, it's an absolute non starter. We live in a joined up, aware World nowadays and most English Football fans are well aware of the OF's sectarian issues. There is no appetite to admit them to the English League whatsoever and they'd be as welcome as a fart in a space suit.

 

If they did let them in to this new 'Division 5', then there must be a case to let in ourselves, Hibs and Aberdeen too.

[Mikey1874]

Yeah

 

Just sort out the details, quickly

[Nelly Terraces]

If there was enough cash it for all concerned (that's 100% what the EPL is about after all) then it could quite easily happen.

 

Money talks - and anything's possible.

[corryjambo]

The thing that cracks me up is the thinking that Rangers or Celtic would in 5 years be able to challenge at the top end of the EPL.

Do people not realise for these 5 years teams like Hull FC will have had countless millions paid to their club and will be able to buy any player they fancy and afford to pay them from their massive TV money despite their relatively low crowds.

 

After 5 years, if they get promoted every year, along will come the "Old Firm" just starting to receive those riches. How many of their supporters will fancy a Tuesday evening trip to Stoke when their team is lying in 14th place in the league and how long would they put up with that scenario, not long I feel.

 

So, feck them, let them go to their promised land, but ensure that once the ties are broken they remain forever broken and there is no sliding back to Scotland when their illusions of domination are broken.

[i8hibsh]

Genuinely not sure if i'd like Hearts to leave the Scottish league.

[Section Q]

Not True

 

Catholics who played for Rangers prior to Mo Johnstone are :

 

Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891?1892), J Tutty (1899?1900), Archie Kyle (1904?1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906?1907), Colin Mainds (1906?1907), Tom Murray (1907?1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914?1918) and John Jackson (1917). Laurie Blyth (1951?1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955?1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985?1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm ? Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984)

The fact that we can name players' religious leanings from 130 years ago speaks volumes for bigotry in Scotland. I'm all for joining the league system in England. Bring it on.

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football/premier-league/2015-2016/would-a-new-fifth-football-league-see-celtic-and-rangers-join-english-set-up_sto5578176/story.shtml

[The Don]

Not doubting this but I always though Mo Jo was the first catholic signing, if this was not the case then why the pantomime that went with it?  Apart from the 11th hour Celtic steal.

 

 

He was the first really high profile catholic signing, and he had already played for Celtic, and if you remember he appeared in a media interview claiming to be going back to Celtic then the next day he signed for Rangers. Thats why there was so much fuss and media attention

[Andrew Gilbert Wauchope]

Why would a country want a football team that did not sign a player unless he was a protestant until 1989 and a team who's fans support Palestine and ETA and generally seem to support armed militant, separatist groups.

 

I once saw a Rangers fan with "KAI" tattooed on his arm.  I later found out it meant "Kill All Irish" - I mean in the name of **** who would welcome this nonsense to their country?  Towns and cities all over England being infested every week with one or the other.

 

Strange - Ian Paisley was Irish, I believe.

[Mikey1874]

As has previously been said, it's an absolute non starter. We live in a joined up, aware World nowadays and most English Football fans are well aware of the OF's sectarian issues. There is no appetite to admit them to the English League whatsoever and they'd be as welcome as a fart in a space suit.

 

If they did let them in to this new 'Division 5', then there must be a case to let in ourselves, Hibs and Aberdeen too.

Yeah but crowd trouble in England is way worse than anything here

 

Fighting around town centres, train stations etc

[i8hibsh]

Strange - Ian Paisley was Irish, I believe.

 

 

Ian Paisley, the bigot's bigot.

[CollyWolly]

Genuinely not sure if i'd like Hearts to leave the Scottish league.

Depends what the football landscape is going to look like. If we still have the same old folk in charge doing the same old things and putting down the game instead of trying to improve things, we'd be as well getting out. There will be nothing left in the wreckage if we didn't seriously re-evaluate and change.

[Martin_T]

English football is so bland, sanitised and dispassionate as the money has eroded the identity of their clubs.

 

At least the games up here feel like they mean something.

[Tokyo Drifter]

Please let this happen. That's all.

[brunoatemyhamster]

Just out of curiosity , Is it about time to renegotiate the TV deal ? 

 

This pish seems to resurface round about that time.

[DH1986]

He was the first really high profile catholic signing, and he had already played for Celtic, and if you remember he appeared in a media interview claiming to be going back to Celtic then the next day he signed for Rangers. Thats why there was so much fuss and media attention

 

There was a several week gap between the Celtic unveiling and him signing for Rangers. 

[The Don]

There was a several week gap between the Celtic unveiling and him signing for Rangers. 

 

 

Throw in the fact he?d promised to rejoin their Old Firm rivals with the words ?There is no other British club I could play for apart from Celtic? and was infamously pictured with Hoops boss Billy McNeill days before becoming a Judas figure with a support he knows will never forgive him. (Daily Record)

[Seymour M Hersh]

Agreed it could and most likely would hinder any TV we might get, however it would then be up to our governing body and SPFL to make our product more attractive, 

 

Summer football 

Could pave the way for a British Cup

Revamp our league set up

Allow ROI and N. Irish Teams to compete

Retaining our CL spot for league winners is an absolute must

 

We already allow this with Ra Celtic and The Rangers. No thanks to any more of them.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Like it or not, Celtic and Rangers have a worldwide audience, especially when they play each other.

 

Ex pats that's all. They really don't create interest from the indigenous populations around the world. Someone mentioned that sevco had (20 years ago) 130 odd thousand members of their supporters club in Canada. That's 130k + ex Scots and Norn Irish either 1st or 2nd generation. 

[Brownbear]

Last seasons semi final had 500k viewers, it clashed with West Ham Leicester which had 900k. The old firm is a myth. We live in the Truman show where we are all brain washed into believing we can't survive without them. It's Stockholm syndrome. Let them go and let the pieces fall where they will. Am going to use hibs here as an example. They are getting their biggest home crowds in years, why? Cause they are going to win the league. A league minus the old firm. People are interested as they wanna see their team be successful. The bigger clubs would survive, their fans would insure it. The lesser clubs, Ross county, itc, Hamilton etc may have to drop to part time, so be it.

 

If 20 years ago, you'd said that the top flight in English football would excist minus Derby/Leeds/Notts Forrest/Ipswich you'd have been laughed out the pub. Derby/Notts Forrest/Ipswich/Leeds all have arguably bigger European pedigree than The old firm. 10 years ago if you'd said Man City would've been arguably the 3rd/4th biggest club in Europe you'd have been laughed out the pub. Things change. I will never understand why this country fears change so much.

Just the 500k?

 

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/exclusive-more-one-million-scottish-5118061

[Stuart G]

There already is a 5th division in England, the conference or whatever it is called now, these clubs and the clubs below in their pyramid system would also get a vote, they are hardly likely to vote for outsiders to come in at possibly their expense.

[DH1986]

Throw in the fact he?d promised to rejoin their Old Firm rivals with the words ?There is no other British club I could play for apart from Celtic? and was infamously pictured with Hoops boss Billy McNeill days before becoming a Judas figure with a support he knows will never forgive him. (Daily Record)

 

Technically they are correct.....

 

But it was around 60 days between the two unveilings.

[busby1985]

Just the 500k?

 

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/exclusive-more-one-million-scottish-5118061

Can't find the link but the viewing figures where released at the end of the season. Found them on some Scottish football Twitter account. Hearts vs Celtic was the 2nd highest in the viewing figures.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Ian Paisley, the bigot's bigot.

 

Best mates with Martin McGuinness outside of the limelight. Go figure! 

[Beast Boy]

We already allow this with Ra Celtic and The Rangers. No thanks to any more of them.

Most actual Irish people and fans behave a lot better than than the plastic pseudo Irish OF fans.

[Brownbear]

Not doubting this but I always though Mo Jo was the first catholic signing, if this was not the case then why the pantomime that went with it?  Apart from the 11th hour Celtic steal.

Saying Mo was the first catholic to sign for Rangers suited the agenda. Even though it is bollox.

 

The list you have read is of known Catholics, there would have been more than those stated.

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

The only way they get their wish to join the English league is to relocate to England.

 

The Doncaster Celtics sounds decent.

 

The Newcastle Rangers would be a cracking fit as well.

[Brownbear]

Can't find the link but the viewing figures where released at the end of the season. Found them on some Scottish football Twitter account. Hearts vs Celtic was the 2nd highest in the viewing figures.

The viewing figures were something like 840,000 at the start of the match and just under 900,000 for the end. Scotland viewer figures.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Most actual Irish people and fans behave a lot better than than the plastic pseudo Irish OF fans.

 

I know and agree with you but they would not add to the value to our league which whether we like it or not would initially lose a bit of marketing power if the sectarian sisters left.

[CollyWolly]

There already is a 5th division in England, the conference or whatever it is called now, these clubs and the clubs below in their pyramid system would also get a vote, they are hardly likely to vote for outsiders to come in at possibly their expense.

They don't get a vote. They are not in the football league. They are in the pyramid outwith the football league obviously but they don't get a say on the football league structure.

No they wouldn't like it much. Nothing they could do about it though. I would expect their bigger clubs to get an invite to EFL5 anyway plus there would still be a pyramid route into EFL5 I would assume.

[The Don]

Technically they are correct.....

 

But it was around 60 days between the two unveilings.

Big difference between "Days" and Months which 60 days is.

 

Also Celtic never unveiled Mo Johnstone as a signing at any point. It was public knowledge they were attempting to sign him they never hid that fact, and as far as they were concerned he WOULD sign for them, however they didn't have the ?1.4million transfer money or the money to pay his wages and it broke down at the last hurdle, Johnstone admits he didn't answer his phone for a couple days and it was his agent Bill McMurdo who persuaded him to take the calls and the first one was Souness, he spoke to no one else and immediately jumped in a plane and straight to Ibrox/Murray park. The only media outlet to report it the next day was The Sun and everyone else said it was nonsense then later that day Johnstone was unveiled at a very quickly arranged press conference.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jammy T]

Genuinely not sure if i'd like Hearts to leave the Scottish league.

As it stands it's a no brainier - it's a yes.

 

Scottish football is really going nowhere.

 

It has complete self interested bozos running what is in essence a closed shop focussed on two teams.

 

So I want something to happen and either way it is a win for Hearts.

 

If this new league, in principle, will look at Scottish teams I want hearts to be one considered. With the infrastructure we have and the city we come from we have the potential to really grow and do well in those leagues.

 

We'd work our way up to the Championship quick enough and from there we'd have the increased financial platform to kick in.

 

If they just want the old firm - equally fine.

 

We'd still have a UEFA compliant league up here and we'd have improved chances of success with a new administrative function. One which would have to be cleaned out of the entire Glasgow stench.

[DH1986]

Big difference between "Days" and Months which 60 days is.

 

Also Celtic never unveiled Mo Johnstone as a signing at any point. It was public knowledge they were attempting to sign him they never hid that fact, and as far as they were concerned he WOULD sign for them, however they didn't have the ?1.4million transfer money or the money to pay his wages and it broke down at the last hurdle, Johnstone admits he didn't answer his phone for a couple days and it was his agent Bill McMurdo who persuaded him to take the calls and the first one was Souness, he spoke to no one else and immediately jumped in a plane and straight to Ibrox/Murray park. The only media outlet to report it the next day was The Sun and everyone else said it was nonsense then later that day Johnstone was unveiled at a very quickly arranged press conference.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You were wrong.

 

Its ok.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Saying Mo was the first catholic to sign for Rangers suited the agenda. Even though it is bollox.

 

The list you have read is of known Catholics, there would have been more than those stated.

 

But they had to hide the fact they were RC's. 

[kingantti1874]

1. I want hearts to go with them. We would not have a marketable produce if they go - kids will gravitate even further towards them .. To suggest otherwise is utter delusion..

 

2. How about this for a conspiracy theory.. I was told some months ago that the government would look to leverage football to ensure Indy ref 2 has no chance.. How many knuckle daggers would vote yes if it meant coming back to the SPL.. That's a million votes gone right there .. I don't subscribe to this but an interesting thought.

[wavydavy]

The sooner the better. Pity they couldn't be registered as English clubs and then we could get rid of the SFA as it is now and have a properly run FA.

[Cruyff Turn]

Should never be allowed to happen even if the English teams allowed it.

 

The standard here isn't the best, we've been left behind by the money invested in football from TV companies (unjustly and unfairly imo) and with that the massive advertising revenue. However I'd never sell us down the river and risk the Independence of our National League and National Team.

 

If it did happen the clubs moving shouldn't be allowed to be based in Scotland.

[Brownbear]

But they had to hide the fact they were RC's.

 

Why would they 'hide' some names and not others?

[jambali]

Not True

 

Catholics who played for Rangers prior to Mo Johnstone are :

 

Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891?1892), J Tutty (1899?1900), Archie Kyle (1904?1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906?1907), Colin Mainds (1906?1907), Tom Murray (1907?1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914?1918) and John Jackson (1917). Laurie Blyth (1951?1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955?1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985?1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm ? Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984)

 

In fact id we want to be really nit picky about the OF bigotry. Rangers signed a Catholic before Celtic signed a Protestant, furthermore as an aside Hibs were kicked out of the Scottish league for refusing to play Protestant players.

Missed a few...

[The Don]

Missed a few...

Obviously I'd googled it lol and that was the first list I came across. I did know about Spencer and Kitchenbrand that was the only ones.

 

Your probably right there probably is more.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DH1986]

Is there a reason your on these forums apart from to start an argument on every thread ? You've been called out by many in here for being a vermin fan.

 

Facts are facts you tried again to start an argument I provided factual evidence and quotes. Accept you made a t1t of yourself yet again and feck off back to vermin.net and let the thread get back on topic :thumbs:

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The facts are...

 

Mo Johnston was paraded by Celtic to the media on May 12th 1989.....the deal fell through because they couldn't agree terms and he was unveiled by Rangers on 10th July 1989.

 

 

For the record....

 

I'm not a Hibs fan.

[Getintaethem]

Firstly let me say that I doubt this will ever happen.

 

If it did happen it could be a serious mistake from the Glasgow clubs. They would have to take a serious cut in finances for several years. A large percentage of their support are glory hunters, after two or three seasons in the lower leagues their support would drop considerably. Even if one of them did finally make it to the top league, they would never win it. Watch how popular it is going to Southampton and Swansea when the team are mid table.

 

If you look at viewing figures the appeal of the old firm is a myth. 500k tuned into their cup match last season, the Manchester derby attracted 3m viewers. Even Hearts regularly pull in 250k+ for live matches. We've already seen Armageddon Mark 1 when Rangers died. Did it really effect finances that much? No, the majority of clubs income comes through their own supporters, the Scottish league would become highly competitive and crowds at other clubs would increase.

 

The SFA may beg and squirm for a while but eventually would have to take a strong stance against the old firm to ensure their own survival as a separate body. I honestly think football would thrive up here. TV money may drop a little but there would still be a market to show our games.

 

I would love to see this happen and for them to leave but just don't think it ever will.

[Bazzas right boot]

If this ever happened it would have a massively negative impact on us in the long term.

Nope, be the best thing longer term.

[Bazzas right boot]

Firstly let me say that I doubt this will ever happen.

 

If it did happen it could be a serious mistake from the Glasgow clubs. They would have to take a serious cut in finances for several years. A large percentage of their support are glory hunters, after two or three seasons in the lower leagues their support would drop considerably. Even if one of them did finally make it to the top league, they would never win it. Watch how popular it is going to Southampton and Swansea when the team are mid table.

 

If you look at viewing figures the appeal of the old firm is a myth. 500k tuned into their cup match last season, the Manchester derby attracted 3m viewers. Even Hearts regularly pull in 250k+ for live matches. We've already seen Armageddon Mark 1 when Rangers died. Did it really effect finances that much? No, the majority of clubs income comes through their own supporters, the Scottish league would become highly competitive and crowds at other clubs would increase.

 

The SFA may beg and squirm for a while but eventually would have to take a strong stance against the old firm to ensure their own survival as a separate body. I honestly think football would thrive up here. TV money may drop a little but there would still be a market to show our games.

 

I would love to see this happen and for them to leave but just don't think it ever will.

Yip, most money goes to the of anyway so any drop in tv money would be minimum for the rest.

 

Be the best thing , ever.

 

Imagine the bother Celtic would cause.