Latest SNP embarassment

[aussieh]

Did it pay to build them?

Joint ventures with the councils, who they also fund from the budget.

Whether Its Labour, or The SNP in Scottish government.

SFT seem to save the taxpayers a few bob too.

[JamboX2]

How does STV work on a national level? Surely if it is a National list then only your 1st vote would count? Straight normal PR?

 

Much in the same way it does in Ireland. You'd amalgamate constituencies into large areas and elect multiple members for larger seats on STV. You'd maybe have 3 Edinburgh seats returning 10 MSPs who were elected by preference.

 

A national list (like Holland and Israel use) would be to use Scotland as the constituency and one vote cast per person to a party not a candidate. Like the regional list vote but nationwide with no local constituencies. Straight PR.

 

Personally I'd favour the STV option. But both produce a more representative result than AMS or FPTP.

 

I don't really understand what you are wanting out of the voting system is it PR as best you can or is it a more broad base political spectrum within the parliament? If it is the later than that is nothing to do with the system of election.

I think the two are linked - a more proportional system creates a broader political spectrum by airing more views in Parliament.

[coconut doug]

It is calculated on the basis of the Scottish Government's own income and expenditure figures. It is no fabrication.

 

In reality, the difference is made good by UK Government but that wasn't the point. The point was that next weekend we would have been having the Indy Ceremony and, all other things being equal, we would then be facing hard decisions about raising tax or cutting spending (or borrowing).

 

Debt is an entirely different question. It is circa ?1.5tn and, assuming the 8.5% apportionment ratio in regular use, Scotland would be getting ?128bn block of loans to service. It can probably be assumed that the ratio of ownership of the debt would be the same and that a proportion of the money lent to other countries would also transfer.

 

I assume it to be understood that all of the debt is not owed to a guy called Vinnie who calls regularly with his "enforcers" and that the vast majority of that debt is owed to internal lenders such as Bank of England, Pension Funds, UK Banks and individual savers and investors. The proportion of debt owed to overseas lenders (eg, the US) is almost matched by debt they owe to UK.

It's not calculated on the basis of the Scottish Government's own income. The Scottish government gets almost all of its money from the block grant. It is calculated on U.K. figures and a nominal sum usually, but not always, proportional to population is attributed to Scotland and from that Scotland's deficit is derived. It is thus entirely a "fabrication" although it may also be quite accurate.

 

The U.K has not made good the difference as you suggest. It has been added to the National debt for which Scotland obviously has some responsibility. The debt remains.

 

It may have escaped your notice but today the U.K. is  facing hard decisions about raising tax or cutting spending (or borrowing) i.e. The budget.  Scotland is not uniquely challenged in this way and if historical deficits are considered, which they must be, then our need to increase taxes or cut spending would be less than that for the U.K.

 

Apart from these points I agree with the rest of your first three sentences.  

 

[pablo]

 

I see Salmond is in the press claiming that Scotland is not a "divided country, but diverse". Anyone agree ?

[Yoda]

^{From today's BBC website}

 

^{UK unemployment fell to 1.68 million between November and January, down 28,000 from the previous quarter, the Office for National Statistics says.}

 

 

^{The rate of unemployment remained at 5.1%, maintaining a decade-low rate.}

 

^{Wages 'subdued'}

^{"With the Chancellor [George Osborne] setting the backdrop to this afternoon's Budget as one where the global 'storm clouds' are gathering, today's labour market figures offer a ray of sunshine," said Scott Bowman, UK economist at Capital Economics.}

^{He added that the UK's jobs recovery remained "in full swing", but cautioned that wage growth was "still fairly subdued by past standards, especially considering how much the labour market has tightened recently".}

^{The East of England saw the biggest fall in the number of unemployed people, down by 15,000, followed by the North East of England, down by 11,000. However, Scotland saw an increase of 16,000 in the number of jobless people.}

[Boris]

I see Salmond is in the press claiming that Scotland is not a "divided country, but diverse". Anyone agree ?

 

It's population is certainly diverse in many aspects, but divided?  

 

If so, isn't every polity?

[JamboX2]

I don't see how STV produces a more representative result if voters 2nd or 3rd option are used, it might be me not understanding it, but you could get parties that few people vote for 1st getting large number of seats and many 1st preferences getting fewer seats. Unless you could say that all of your votes should only go against one party, if that is what you want.

 

I am a member of the SNP, but this could apply to a supporter of any party, and I would only want the SNP to get my vote.

Just rank all the SNP candidates on the ballot. Or give a 1 to the candidate you want and no one else.

 

STV gives choice to the people. Not parties. Parties select candidates and its up to people to use their vote to state a preference to each candidate those parties have chosen.

 

My issue with AMS is the party picks one candidate and then a closed list of preferred candidates to be returned. It hands power to parties, not people.

 

The people deserve the choice to chose. Not parties.

[Boris]

Just rank all the SNP candidates on the ballot. Or give a 1 to the candidate you want and no one else.

 

STV gives choice to the people. Not parties. Parties select candidates and its up to people to use their vote to state a preference to each candidate those parties have chosen.

 

My issue with AMS is the party picks one candidate and then a closed list of preferred candidates to be returned. It hands power to parties, not people.

 

The people deserve the choice to chose. Not parties.

 

But with AMS, the closed list is publically available, so your second list vote could be swayed by who is at the top of the list for any particular party.

[coconut doug]

Have a read of this. We pay hardly any money at all for those infrastructure projects in Scotland

 

https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/meme-busting-wings-over-scotland-infrastructure-spending/

Reasonable analysis, but It seems we are contributing to Crossrail and HS2 which was the point I made. Not sure how you conclude that "We pay hardly any money at all for those infrastructure projects in Scotland" unless by we you mean those from the rest of the U.K. Probably you mean, We, in Scotland pay hardly any money at all, for projects not in Scotland.

 

Where Barnet Consequentials are given then Scotland is compensated for it's contribution. Consequentials are not always given though as this article points out.

 

[JamboX2]

But with AMS, the closed list is publically available, so your second list vote could be swayed by who is at the top of the list for any particular party.

Not every voter will go to a party website to check that. Therefore, some votes are blind and may indirectly vote for Jackie Baillie when they don't want to.

[Boris]

Not every voter will go to a party website to check that. Therefore, some votes are blind and may indirectly vote for Jackie Baillie when they don't want to.

True, but you are advocating STV just so you can choose anyone but the snp candidate, imo, rather than the pretext of choosing the best candidate. That's how it's coming across to me at least.

[Hasselhoff]

Reasonable analysis, but It seems we are contributing to Crossrail and HS2 which was the point I made. Not sure how you conclude that "We pay hardly any money at all for those infrastructure projects in Scotland" unless by we you mean those from the rest of the U.K. Probably you mean, We, in Scotland pay hardly any money at all, for projects not in Scotland.

 

Where Barnet Consequentials are given then Scotland is compensated for it's contribution. Consequentials are not always given though as this article points out.

 

Admittedly my sentence structure was lacking back there

 

As you rightly assumed, I was meaning that we in Scotland are not funding much of these non-Scottish infrastructure projects despite all the rhetoric that suggests we are (including messages from actual SNP MPs)

[Thunderstruck]

It's not calculated on the basis of the Scottish Government's own income. The Scottish government gets almost all of its money from the block grant. It is calculated on U.K. figures and a nominal sum usually, but not always, proportional to population is attributed to Scotland and from that Scotland's deficit is derived. It is thus entirely a "fabrication" although it may also be quite accurate.

 

The U.K has not made good the difference as you suggest. It has been added to the National debt for which Scotland obviously has some responsibility. The debt remains.

 

It may have escaped your notice but today the U.K. is facing hard decisions about raising tax or cutting spending (or borrowing) i.e. The budget. Scotland is not uniquely challenged in this way and if historical deficits are considered, which they must be, then our need to increase taxes or cut spending would be less than that for the U.K.

 

Apart from these points I agree with the rest of your first three sentences.

 

It was derived, by economists, from various sets of data including GERS. As you say, this is, like many such exercises, subject to marginal variations. However, it has not been disputed at a Scottish Government level with the only answer being offered was that Scotland has a "fundamentally"" strong economy".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35757787

 

The Budget - overall, nothing dramatic. The "hard decision on spending" resulted in cut of 0.4% by 2020. There was also good news for Scotland in allowances for Oil Industry.

 

It seems that George Osborne's definition of "Austerity" does not accord with the traditional definition. Yes, he has reallocated money between various budget lines but overall spending has increased considerably since 2010 while tax is not exactly at eye-watering levels.

[SE16 3LN]

It's population is certainly diverse in many aspects, but divided?  

 

If so, isn't every polity?

Well it depends how you look at it, but by most indicators it is the least diverse country in Europe.

[Boris]

Well it depends how you look at it, but by most indicators it is the least diverse country in Europe.

I was meaning by political outlook, rather than the people who make up the electorate, but your point may well stand for other things, such as ethnicity, religion etc etc

[JamboX2]

True, but you are advocating STV just so you can choose anyone but the snp candidate, imo, rather than the pretext of choosing the best candidate. That's how it's coming across to me at least.

Not at all. I could select the Green candidate I want. Why should I be stuck with Maggie Chapman rather than Robin Harper?

 

I'd also argue, we use STV at council level and it works and is easy to use. Why not have uniformity?

 

Don't construe this as being anti-SNP. I just think there's a need to have a more proportional electoral system in the 21st century.

[coconut doug]

It was derived, by economists, from various sets of data including GERS. As you say, this is, like many such exercises, subject to marginal variations. However, it has not been disputed at a Scottish Government level with the only answer being offered was that Scotland has a "fundamentally"" strong economy".

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35757787

 

The Budget - overall, nothing dramatic. The "hard decision on spending" resulted in cut of 0.4% by 2020. There was also good news for Scotland in allowances for Oil Industry.

 

It seems that George Osborne's definition of "Austerity" does not accord with the traditional definition. Yes, he has reallocated money between various budget lines but overall spending has increased considerably since 2010 while tax is not exactly at eye-watering levels.

They have put off the hard decisions. This is Osborne's pitch for P.M. looking after his own with tax cuts and flood defence spending in the shires. Some bad news was already announced i.e. the cuts for the disabled which match almost exactly the cuts in Capital Gains and increase in the 40% threshold.

 

Overall spending has increased because the Tories have not addressed the deficit properly. The National debt has increased as a proportion of GDP and we remain on course for an enduring Tory government and eternal debt with high interest rates bleeding the public purse. There is no chance of balancing the books unless he does take some hard decisions on spending. George Osborne's personal interest though, comes first.

[coconut doug]

Admittedly my sentence structure was lacking back there

 

As you rightly assumed, I was meaning that we in Scotland are not funding much of these non-Scottish infrastructure projects despite all the rhetoric that suggests we are (including messages from actual SNP MPs)

This is the sort of thing  that politicians exaggerate.

[Thunderstruck]

They have put off the hard decisions. This is Osborne's pitch for P.M. looking after his own with tax cuts and flood defence spending in the shires. Some bad news was already announced i.e. the cuts for the disabled which match almost exactly the cuts in Capital Gains and increase in the 40% threshold.

 

Overall spending has increased because the Tories have not addressed the deficit properly. The National debt has increased as a proportion of GDP and we remain on course for an enduring Tory government and eternal debt with high interest rates bleeding the public purse. There is no chance of balancing the books unless he does take some hard decisions on spending. George Osborne's personal interest though, comes first.

Maybe flood defences are necessary in the "Shires" because that is where most of the flooding occurred. They certainly looked quite soggy from above during the worst of the weather.

 

It is a strange form of Austerity that has seen total public spend in the past three years be ?734bn, ?748bn and ?760bn without any significant rise in general taxation. It is not a form of Austerity that Greeks would recognise.

 

Perhaps it is the "spend your way out of trouble" that his critics have demanded. It certainly isn't saving.

 

Is today's extra ?1bn for disabled persons not worthy of mention?

 

As for your last paragraph, are you sure you fully understand the difference between debt and deficit, the different types of debt, who the creditors are and the varying dates of maturity of the loans?

[Auld Reekin']

Iceland can't be more diverse, they need an App to make sure they're not related before they.......

 

They trialed it down Leith way, but it wasn't a success.

[SE16 3LN]

Iceland can't be more diverse, they need an App to make sure they're not related before they.......

In terms of ethnicity it is apparently. Who knows how accurate the figures are.

[jack D and coke]

One of the things that has always annoyed me about the SNP is this nonsense about us being pro-euro and seems it might be as I thought all along, a load of balls!!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high

[aussieh]

One of the things that has always annoyed me about the SNP is this nonsense about us being pro-euro and seems it might be as I thought all along, a load of balls!!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high

And we all hate refugees too.

[jack D and coke]

And we all hate refugees too.

Has Nicola Sturgeon moved any in to her billet yet?

[aussieh]

Has Nicola Sturgeon moved any in to her billet yet?

Not permitted.

[manaliveits105]

 Crankie hasnt even moved into her appointed billet yet - a first minister who refuses to live in the capital of her beloved country - Mad Sturgeon Oot 

[aussieh]

Crankie hasnt even moved into her appointed billet yet - a first minister who refuses to live in the capital of her beloved country - Mad Sturgeon Oot

lives in the real Capital.

[jack D and coke]

Not permitted.

Haha well that's a stroke of luck. Has to go down as one of the stupidest things she'll ever go on record saying IMO. I lost a lot of respect for her when she came out with that.

[aussieh]

Haha well that's a stroke of luck. Has to go down as one of the stupidest things she'll ever go on record saying IMO. I lost a lot of respect for her when she came out with that.

Why?.

Thought it was very kind, great leader of a mighty party of Scotland.

[manaliveits105]

 still the government has been generous to Edinburgh Aberdeen and Inverness in the budget there for negating the weeg yes vote.

[aussieh]

Glasgow and Inverness are yes.

[Tasavallan]

Has Nicola Sturgeon moved any in to her billet yet?

 

Have you, like?

[jack D and coke]

Why?.

Thought it was very kind, great leader of a mighty party of Scotland.

Because it was nothing more than a soundbite, something she'd never have to do. A quite ludicrous statement.

My daughter was telling me about some of the Syrian refugee children that are at her old primary school and you'd have to be stone hearted not to feel for them after some of the things she's told me but tell me who's taking them into their houses except Sturgeon and maybe Bob Geldof although I don't think he's came good on his offer either has he?

Anyway it's getting away from my point of Scotland being every bit as sceptical of Europe as the rest of the U.K. We're not keen on a horsing from Germany either.

[jack D and coke]

Have you, like?

You've lost me....

[Boris]

One of the things that has always annoyed me about the SNP is this nonsense about us being pro-euro and seems it might be as I thought all along, a load of balls!!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high

 

Or not http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12086589/EU-referendum-Who-in-Britain-wants-to-leave-and-who-wants-to-remain.html

 

One can be sceptical of the EU, without wishing to leave it.

[aussieh]

Because it was nothing more than a soundbite, something she'd never have to do. A quite ludicrous statement.

My daughter was telling me about some of the Syrian refugee children that are at her old primary school and you'd have to be stone hearted not to feel for them after some of the things she's told me but tell me who's taking them into their houses except Sturgeon and maybe Bob Geldof although I don't think he's came good on his offer either has he?

Anyway it's getting away from my point of Scotland being every bit as sceptical of Europe as the rest of the U.K. We're not keen on a horsing from Germany either.

No, were not.

One loaded article doesn't make it a reality.

[pablo]

lives in the real Capital.

 

[aussieh]

[AlphonseCapone]

One of the things that has always annoyed me about the SNP is this nonsense about us being pro-euro and seems it might be as I thought all along, a load of balls!!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high

 

A few points on this;

 

1) Every single poll released has had Scotland more pro-Europe than the rest of the UK. It's a fair enough assertion to make.

2) I think the SNP point on being removed against our wishes is also valid the other way, if we vote to leave but the rest vote to stay, but the argument hasn't been framed this way due to point 1.

3) I've only read your link, not the survey itself but it states Scottish people are 5 points below the UK for Euroscepticism which still makes Scotland more pro-Europe.

4) There is no definition on what Euroscepticism is defined as, and it doesn't necessarily mean they'd want to leave the EU, in fact it states only 17% want to leave.

[aussieh]

You've lost me....

What's wrong with the EU, sovereign states helping one another, its hardly the UK with one country ruling the other members of the Kingdom.

[manaliveits105]

Glasgow Scotland with Style 

[aussieh]

Glasgow Scotland with Style

Its the only real city Scotland has.

[Pans Jambo]

Haha well that's a stroke of luck. Has to go down as one of the stupidest things she'll ever go on record saying IMO. I lost a lot of respect for her when she came out with that.

Shes got 4 of them lodging in her garden shed though...

[i8hibsh]

Its the only real city Scotland has.

 

How?

[Phil Dunphy]

How?

 

I imagine because Edinburgh was a No city.

[AlphonseCapone]

I imagine because Edinburgh was a No city.

 

Dundee was a Yes city but?

[Phil Dunphy]

Dundee was a Yes city but?

 

I might be wrong here, but I'm assuming that he mentioned Glasgow in particular because of the existing rivalry between the two cities and he was expecting a few bites.

[Deevers]

Maybe Glasgow and Dundee should declare UDI and give the rest of us a break.

[Thunderstruck]

lives in the real Capital.

Uddingston is the real capital of Scotland?

[XB52]

One of the things that has always annoyed me about the SNP is this nonsense about us being pro-euro and seems it might be as I thought all along, a load of balls!!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high

as you well know every opinion poll about the EU has Scotland very much in favour of staying in the EU. Using your quoted piece to try and argue against that is as bad as the Express using their 4-argument poll to say support for Independence had fallen.