Police Scotland

[jambo1185]

Interesting to see Gordon Wilson (who seems to be becoming an increasingly annoying thorn in the side of the current SNP leadership) advocating the Scottish Conservative policy of a tiered police force.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Couldn't agree more and have said as much in several posts on here. However, the shocking lack of a police response did not cause the death of the driver, nor, in all probability did it prevent the survival of the girl.

Not sure how you can say that - She was still alive 3 days later and the wound on her head was badly infected she was so dehydrated that she had kidney damage.

[doctor jambo]

Yes, and noted at the weekend a further picture of a police officer leaving a shop with his lunch and a side arm clearly visible.

Hurrah for accountability for Sir House.

And as for the death of the girl- 3 days in the car and when the police arrived she was fully conscious and trying to break out the car.

Had they got to her day one I' m not convinced she would not still be alive.

Being stationary for 3 days causes rhabdomyolysis where the muscles break down and this jams up the kidneys.

Corporate manslaughter?

[Bert Le Clos]

House quits. To leave post in 3 months.

 

 

Why wait 3 months though?

[Ribble]

House quits. To leave post in 3 months.

 

 

Why wait 3 months though?

 

Standard termination clause at that level of job. If they can appoint his successor quickly then no doubt he'll be stuck on gardening leave sooner.

[Boris]

House quits. To leave post in 3 months.

 

 

Why wait 3 months though?

 

Probably getting measured up for his ermine robes!

[Maroon Sailor]

The chief constable of Police Scotland is to stand down from his post, BBC Scotland has learned.

Sir Stephen House has been under severe pressure over the three days it took his officers to respond to a fatal crash on the M9.

He has also been criticised over armed officers being put on routine patrol and his force's policies on stopping and searching juveniles.

Sir Stephen is to leave his post in three months' time.

He is currently attending a meeting of the Scottish Police Authority, where he is expected to confirm the details of his departure.

The chief constable had previously indicated he was likely to stand down when his four year contract expired in September of next year.

Overseen successes

Sir Stephen, who was previously the chief constable of Strathclyde Police, oversaw the complex amalgamation of Scotland's eight regional police forces into the single national force, which is the second largest in the UK.

Since then, he has overseen successes such as the policing of last year's Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.

But he was criticised over his decision to put armed officers on routine patrols, as well as the force's policy on stopping and searching juveniles.

The force is also under pressure over its response to the M9 crash in July in which John Yuill and his partner Lamara Bell died after it took three days for officers to respond to reports of their car leaving the road near Stirling.

Its officers are also being investigated by the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner over the death of Sheku Bayoh.

Mr Bayoh died in police custody after being arrested following an incident in Kirkcaldy on 3 May.

 

Sir Stephen had faced calls to resign from opposition politicians in the wake of the controversies, but Scotland's first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has always insisted she had full confidence in him.

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie, who has been a fierce critic of the single force, said Sir Stephen's departure would not by itself solve the "deep-rooted problems" in Police Scotland and said the force needed a "fresh start".

He added: "Ultimately the SNP government must accept responsibility for this chaos. They rammed through the centralisation of our police service despite warnings. They set up the toothless Scottish Police Authority. They appointed the chief constable."

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson said Sir Stephen was "bowing to the inevitable" by resigning, and said it was "essential that his replacement is up to the task of tackling the problems that have afflicted the single force since its inception."

And Scottish Labour's justice spokesman, Graeme Pearson - who were formerly a senior police officer - said Sir Stephen was doing the right thing.

He added: "Officers and staff work round the clock to keep people safe. The controversy of this summer has dragged their reputation unfairly through the mud. The process of reforming Police Scotland can begin now if the SNP government are willing to take responsibility for their mistakes."

'Monumental contribution'

The Scottish Police Federation, which represents rank and file officers, said Sir Stephen had made a "monumental contribution" to policing.

The federation's chairman, Brian Docherty, said: "He has delivered the most significant public sector restructuring in a generation against a background of a brutal austerity agenda.

"He has delivered some very impressive policing results on crimes of violence, particularly domestic violence. I have little doubt that history will prove to be kinder to Sir Stephen than the current commentary which at times has been vindictive and deeply personal.

"Many people feared that a single police service could be susceptible to political interference and those who have called for the head of the chief constable as some form of trophy need to consider that."

Niven Rennie, president of the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, said on Twitter that the first chief constable of Police Scotland "was always going to be on a hiding to nothing".

He also said that critics of the force should "recognise the great achievements of Police Scotland in its formative years not concentrate on the mistakes."

Mr Rennie said Sir Stephen's decision would give a chance to rebuild on a "crazy" two years, and that he believed a "change in style will help".

[Don Dan]

He had no option and ultimately did the right thing.

[Maroon Sailor]

He had no option and ultimately did the right thing.

 

If it wasn't for the likes of Sturgeon he'd have gone long ago

[TheMaganator]

Beginning of the end of that complete shambles. 

 

Hopefully the government will now re-think their little pet-project. 

[Boris]

Beginning of the end of that complete shambles. 

 

Hopefully the government will now re-think their little pet-project. 

 

But...

 

"MSPs backed the general principles of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill by 93 votes to five, with 13 abstentions."

 

from http://news.stv.tv/scotland/99231-single-scottish-police-force-and-fire-service-approved-by-holyrood/ 

[Goldstone Wonder]

Delighted he has done the decent thing. Long overdue.

[JamboX2]

But...

 

"MSPs backed the general principles of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill by 93 votes to five, with 13 abstentions."

 

from http://news.stv.tv/scotland/99231-single-scottish-police-force-and-fire-service-approved-by-holyrood/

Yup Labour and the Tories largely backed it. But they, the Liberals and Greens have been calling for reform for nearly two years now when things started going wrong.

 

It needs reformed so much. Gordon Wilson (SNP) was right in his critique and absolutely on the money in saying a police force can only be accountable to elected officials not the quango called the SPA.

 

Let's see if the SNP will consider really big reform here. They're the hold outs to reform.

[Boris]

Yup Labour and the Tories largely backed it. But they, the Liberals and Greens have been calling for reform for nearly two years now when things started going wrong.

 

It needs reformed so much. Gordon Wilson (SNP) was right in his critique and absolutely on the money in saying a police force can only be accountable to elected officials not the quango called the SPA.

 

Let's see if the SNP will consider really big reform here. They're the hold outs to reform.

 

I'm not denying that reform is needed, and agree the Govt needs to do something about it!

[Seymour M Hersh]

Beginning of the end of that complete shambles. 

 

Hopefully the government will now re-think their little pet-project. 

 

Preposterous!!! The dear leader and the not leader are never wrong!!! 

[jake]

Couldn't agree more and have said as much in several posts on here. However, the shocking lack of a police response did not cause the death of the driver, nor, in all probability did it prevent the survival of the girl.

 

Thats absolute nonsense.

You have no idea what so ever if that poor girl would have survived.

But then you wont hear any critique of the police.

And any who even slightly question their performance are met with accusations of anti police.

 

On the matter of the big chiefs resignation it will be interesting to see if theres a sudden decrease in sickness levels.

According to you this is all attributed to him.

[Haken]

Standard termination clause at that level of job. If they can appoint his successor quickly then no doubt he'll be stuck on gardening leave sooner.

 

There is a legislative process to go through.  I imagine he'll serve his notice; one of the DCCs will get a temporary promotion to fill the gap between end of House and the beginning of the new guy/gal.

Yup Labour and the Tories largely backed it. But they, the Liberals and Greens have been calling for reform for nearly two years now when things started going wrong.

 

It needs reformed so much. Gordon Wilson (SNP) was right in his critique and absolutely on the money in saying a police force can only be accountable to elected officials not the quango called the SPA.

 

Let's see if the SNP will consider really big reform here. They're the hold outs to reform.

Reform the reform?  Not a chance.  More likely that a much closer look will be taken of the accountable body, the Scottish Police Authority, to make it stronger.

[i8hibsh]

From day one this has been a

 

Millions upon millions of pounds spent on this unmitigated disaster.  For what, different badges, signs and stationary.

 

Sums up the truly pathetic SNP.  Make no bones about it, they just want the name "Scotland" in everything we do.

 

However, I'm still very proud of our police force,  these muppets wont take that away.

[Jonny John Boy]

From day one this has been a

 

Millions upon millions of pounds spent on this unmitigated disaster. For what, different badges, signs and stationary.

 

Sums up the truly pathetic SNP. Make no bones about it, they just want the name "Scotland" in everything we do.

 

However, I'm still very proud of our police force, these muppets wont take that away.

Let's be honest Scotland will become an independent country. It may be 10 15 or 20 years down the line but it will happen.

Police Scotland is just the start and was always going to have challenges to start with.

[i8hibsh]

Let's be honest Scotland will become an independent country. It may be 10 15 or 20 years down the line but it will happen.

Police Scotland is just the start and was always going to have challenges to start with.

 

Based on anything more than conjecture? I'm so sick of hearing this bullshit.  Give it up ffs - please!

[frankblack]

I think this whole Police Scotland merger just reflects the incompetence of staff working in public sector organisations, and how they resist change.  When they are asked to actually do their job they just go off sick with "stress" for several months.  In the private sector you shape up or get binned.

 

I would not revert this back to the old system, I'd get private companies in to give the staff a boot up the arse where it is needed - no matter which level.

[Boris]

From day one this has been a

 

Millions upon millions of pounds spent on this unmitigated disaster.  For what, different badges, signs and stationary.

 

Sums up the truly pathetic SNP.  Make no bones about it, they just want the name "Scotland" in everything we do.

 

However, I'm still very proud of our police force,  these muppets wont take that away.

 

It wasn't just the SNP that voted this through, you know.

[robroy1874]

Police Scotland just too big to have any regional accountability 

[Boris]

I think this whole Police Scotland merger just reflects the incompetence of staff working in public sector organisations, and how they resist change.  When they are asked to actually do their job they just go off sick with "stress" for several months.  In the private sector you shape up or get binned.

 

I would not revert this back to the old system, I'd get private companies in to give the staff a boot up the arse where it is needed - no matter which level.

 

Public or private, resistance to change will always exist.  Don't blame the staff, blame the management who implement that change.  They are the ones responsible for selling it to the staff and making sure the change works.  Your idea to give staff "a boot up the arse" is a nonsense is exactly the type of management technique that makes staff go "off with stress" in the first place.

 

And you can't just get "binned" in the private sector.  There is still at least some legislation preventing that.

[i8hibsh]

It wasn't just the SNP that voted this through, you know.

 

Holyrood is still a 

[i8hibsh]

double post

[Jamhammer]

I think this whole Police Scotland merger just reflects the incompetence of staff working in public sector organisations, and how they resist change.  When they are asked to actually do their job they just go off sick with "stress" for several months.  In the private sector you shape up or get binned.

 

I would not revert this back to the old system, I'd get private companies in to give the staff a boot up the arse where it is needed - no matter which level.

I don't really know where to go with this post. In both the NHS and Police there are nowhere near enough "staff" to "do their job". House was asked to make drastic cuts. He made them. Cops are now doing civvies jobs, their places have not been filled with other cops. A "kick up the arse" or "binning them" would really help.

 

Police Scotland was a mistake from the off. It was too much too soon. We shoould have gone from 8 forces to three and then to one.

 

You cannot, IMO run a public service like a business. People want cops, on foot on their streets. It's that simple. It's all well and good having a [Moe Edit] helicopter flying over West Pilton every night but that money would be better spent on puttting half a dozen cops on foot in the same area.

[doctor jambo]

I think this whole Police Scotland merger just reflects the incompetence of staff working in public sector organisations, and how they resist change.  When they are asked to actually do their job they just go off sick with "stress" for several months.  In the private sector you shape up or get binned.

 

I would not revert this back to the old system, I'd get private companies in to give the staff a boot up the arse where it is needed - no matter which level.

By resistant to change, I guess you mean got really stressed out as House unceremoniously sacked staff, cut overtime and messed everyones shifts, and reduced staff levels leaving cops exposed.

Sometimes resistance is a good thing

[Boris]

I don't really know where to go with this post. In both the NHS and Police there are nowhere near enough "staff" to "do their job". House was asked to make drastic cuts. He made them. Cops are now doing civvies jobs, their places have not been filled with other cops. A "kick up the arse" or "binning them" would really help.

 

Police Scotland was a mistake from the off. It was too much too soon. We shoould have gone from 8 forces to three and then to one.

 

You cannot, IMO run a public service like a business. People want cops, on foot on their streets. It's that simple. It's all well and good having a [Mod Edit] helicopter flying over West Pilton every night but that money would be better spent on puttting half a dozen cops on foot in the same area.

 

 

By resistant to change, I guess you mean got really stressed out as House unceremoniously sacked staff, cut overtime and messed everyones shifts, and reduced staff levels leaving cops exposed.

Sometimes resistance is a good thing

 

Boom!

[frankblack]

I don't really know where to go with this post. In both the NHS and Police there are nowhere near enough "staff" to "do their job". House was asked to make drastic cuts. He made them. Cops are now doing civvies jobs, their places have not been filled with other cops. A "kick up the arse" or "binning them" would really help.

 

Police Scotland was a mistake from the off. It was too much too soon. We shoould have gone from 8 forces to three and then to one.

 

You cannot, IMO run a public service like a business. People want cops, on foot on their streets. It's that simple. It's all well and good having a [Mod Edit] helicopter flying over West Pilton every night but that money would be better spent on puttting half a dozen cops on foot in the same area.

 

Firstly, I've got nothing against the NHS other than they waste too much money on consultants and temp workers rather than paying for full time staff.  I don't think the comparison between the Police and NHS that you made is relevant.

 

I'm focusing firstly on the administration side of public organisations that are full of waste and generally people that float by doing the minimum they can get away with.  My experience of the Police dates back to before the reorganisation where my car was hit by an uninsured driver, and the police contacted me six months later after my complaint to tell me the other party was insured (which was not the case as my insurer checked this), and when I told them this they hung up and never contacted me again.

 

The death of the couple who crashed off road is a prime example of staff incompetence.  If the people were logging the details correctly they should not be closing open incidents and someone should be getting notified if an incident isn't responded to within a certain time period.  What sort of clowns phoned the dead woman's mobile to check if she was ok two weeks after?

 

In my view the Police can be run like a service if its made efficient.  I don't think you have suddenly got more inefficiencies as a result of the merger - more likely that the existing failings are more prominent and centralised.

 

By resistant to change, I guess you mean got really stressed out as House unceremoniously sacked staff, cut overtime and messed everyones shifts, and reduced staff levels leaving cops exposed.

Sometimes resistance is a good thing

 

I've had all these things happen in the private sector - its not easy but you get on with things or quit.  At the end of the day, management have to get results and have to take action where its not working.

 

It really helps your colleagues when you can't hack your job so go off with "stress" leaving the others to have their workloads increased.  If you don't like the work, quit and work somewhere more at your level.

[doctor jambo]

Firstly, I've got nothing against the NHS other than they waste too much money on consultants and temp workers rather than paying for full time staff.  I don't think the comparison between the Police and NHS that you made is relevant.

 

I'm focusing firstly on the administration side of public organisations that are full of waste and generally people that float by doing the minimum they can get away with.  My experience of the Police dates back to before the reorganisation where my car was hit by an uninsured driver, and the police contacted me six months later after my complaint to tell me the other party was insured (which was not the case as my insurer checked this), and when I told them this they hung up and never contacted me again.

 

The death of the couple who crashed off road is a prime example of staff incompetence.  If the people were logging the details correctly they should not be closing open incidents and someone should be getting notified if an incident isn't responded to within a certain time period.  What sort of clowns phoned the dead woman's mobile to check if she was ok two weeks after?

 

In my view the Police can be run like a service if its made efficient.  I don't think you have suddenly got more inefficiencies as a result of the merger - more likely that the existing failings are more prominent and centralised.

 

 

I've had all these things happen in the private sector - its not easy but you get on with things or quit.  At the end of the day, management have to get results and have to take action where its not working.

 

It really helps your colleagues when you can't hack your job so go off with "stress" leaving the others to have their workloads increased.  If you don't like the work, quit and work somewhere more at your level.

What happens when it is the management that ARE the problem? When it is the management who CAUSE the stress, and what if the results they get via their "methods" are, frankly, dubious (deleted data, stop and search, firearms).

An unhappy workforce is not an effective workforce

IN this case the top of the tree, who, by all accounts, does not listen to anyone, is heavy handed and unfeeling.

He is vastly unpopular

[frankblack]

What happens when it is the management that ARE the problem? When it is the management who CAUSE the stress, and what if the results they get via their "methods" are, frankly, dubious (deleted data, stop and search, firearms).

An unhappy workforce is not an effective workforce

IN this case the top of the tree, who, by all accounts, does not listen to anyone, is heavy handed and unfeeling.

He is vastly unpopular

 

You sack those who are responsible for the things you mention such as deleting data.  You get bad managers in most lines of work - people who have been promoted above their competence level.  These people need weeded out.  In my area of Software Development, I have seen people in my career who were great developers and get promoted because of this to managers, but can't manage people.

 

I'm not sure if "stop and search" and "firearms" issues are political, though.

[doctor jambo]

You sack those who are responsible for the things you mention such as deleting data.  You get bad managers in most lines of work - people who have been promoted above their competence level.  These people need weeded out.  In my area of Software Development, I have seen people in my career who were great developers and get promoted because of this to managers, but can't manage people.

 

I'm not sure if "stop and search" and "firearms" issues are political, though.

Sometimes the pressure in jobs in literally unbearable and it affects your functioning.

Now, in these cases you take it up the line,

sadly, when you take it up the line you are not listened to, or classed as "cannot hack it" or "you are lucky to still have a job" or "go and find another job"

Its not that easy to find a good, safe(ish) job.

House is notorious for not listening to his subordinates.

So if your boss does not listen - what do you do? Where do you take it? He is the top man.

Stress levels and sickness rates are beyond the pale in Police Scotland- you cannot solve that by telling folk to basically man up or resign.

If a service deteriorates under your control relative to what it was, then look closer to home

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

ive had a couple of enquiries with the fuzz looked into recently so ive not got the hump with them.

one thing that is pissing me off with that lot tho is their capacity to say,do,disclose nothing in the face of public scrutiny.

 

eg 2 punters lying in that car on the a9,the kircaldy geezer who died in custody and now their refusal to give to public information via a survey

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33635962

 

something smells badly with the running of that force imo

I've said on here previously, I had a lawyer recently who told me to keep an eye out for a story which would be massive about Scotland's top cop.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Holyrood is still a

Why is it a facepalm?

[i8hibsh]

Why is it a facepalm?

 

• Eyesore
• Waste of money
• The chocolate fire guard of political buildings
• Parochial

Shock horror tho BM - you will disagree. Keep up your struggle and fight tho

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

 

• Eyesore
• Waste of money
• The chocolate fire guard of political buildings
• Parochial

Shock horror tho BM - you will disagree. Keep up your struggle and fight tho</p>

Crikey. I'll leave you to it.

[i8hibsh]

Crikey. I'll leave you to it.

 

After 10 years? I don't believe you 

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

After 10 years? I don't believe you

Lost me.

[Haken]

 

 

I'm not sure if "stop and search" and "firearms" issues are political, though.

I'd say they are.  SH applied Strathclyde policy Scotland-wide.  It wasn't the huge media issue it was when only Strathclyde sized; it only became so when the forces were amalgamated.  Basically in terms of media, anything that PS does now is 'national', whereas before it was regional. 

[i8hibsh]

Lost me.

Well you haven't always been called Bilel Moshni (bizarre choice of name) now were you? I know who you were you little minx

[aussieh]

 

• Eyesore
• Waste of money
• The chocolate fire guard of political buildings
• Parochial

Shock horror tho BM - you will disagree. Keep up your struggle and fight tho</p>

You had a chance to give it real power, you denied it that chance.

So stop moaning.

[Bert Le Clos]

The SNP are quite rightly accountable for their part in this shambles. Just as Labour and the Tories are for pushing through a single force.

 

However, the majority of people appear to be of the opinion that the Police and politics should not mix. That has to apply both ways. So Sturgeon and Salmond before her couldn't just have decided to bin House. It doesn't work like that, it's not that easy.

 

Equally, House doesn't skip the blame of having to cope with the SNP's budget cuts. He was fully aware of the cuts before he took post. In fact, from what I've heard, it was his commitment to achieving these cuts and more that got him the gig in the first place.

[i8hibsh]

You had a chance to give it real power, you denied it that chance.

So stop moaning.

I don't want it PERIOD.

[aussieh]

The SNP are quite rightly accountable for their part in this shambles. Just as Labour and the Tories are for pushing through a single force.

 

However, the majority of people appear to be of the opinion that the Police and politics should not mix. That has to apply both ways. So Sturgeon and Salmond before her couldn't just have decided to bin House. It doesn't work like that, it's not that easy.

 

Equally, House doesn't skip the blame of having to cope with the SNP's budget cuts. He was fully aware of the cuts before he took post. In fact, from what I've heard, it was his commitment to achieving these cuts and more that got him the gig in the first place.

Bang on.

That last bit, im always hearing, that experts in the field should run things, like docs in the nhs and cops etc...

Well Holyrood tried that and its a load of pish.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

I don't want it PERIOD.

Sounds like you're on them now.

[i8hibsh]

Sounds like you're on them now.

 

 

Ooooosht. He shoots he scores!!!

 

Take a bow fella 

[aussieh]

I don't want it PERIOD.

Well tough, its coming, with or without your support.

Think about that.

Mintit.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

The death of the couple who crashed off road is a prime example of staff incompetence.  If the people were logging the details correctly they should not be closing open incidents and someone should be getting notified if an incident isn't responded to within a certain time period.  What sort of clowns phoned the dead woman's mobile to check if she was ok two weeks after?

 

The M9 incident is till being investigated externally and internally. Take what you read from Ahmed Anwar in the Daily Record with a pinch. He's got a fairly big axe he's grinding.

 

I suspect what will come out will be not the initial 'individual failings' as trumpeted by Mr House but more a a tragic failure of procedure exacerbated by the cuts to very experienced and vital civilian staff which saw an under-trained officer manning the phones on overtime to help out their colleagues who are working mandatory 12 hour shifts because the system is failing.

 

Furthermore the 'clowns' phoned the girls phone to check the whereabouts of a family member as part of another unrelated investigation, not to check if she was OK.

 

Getting basic information like that wrong, as you just have, can be the difference between life and death in the 'clowns' world.

 

It's pretty easy isn't it?

[i8hibsh]

Well tough, its coming, with or without your support.

Think about that.

Mintit.