Police Scotland

[jambos are go!]

How do you like those source grapes?

A 5% defeat isn't a horsing. Your party got beasted good and proper in the general election. Their solitary MP saved his seat for his constituency work including saving our club. Otherwise you would have zero MPs.

Now are you going to let the thread get back on topic?

And here is me thinking it was a 10% defeat. The No campaign got 55% of the vote on a much higher turnout than the General Election. The Snp did not Achieve 50% at the General Election on a much lower turnout

 

Can I point out thst it was you that raised the issue of political sour grapes and I commented. Is this factually incorrect?

 

The Police debacle is one example amongst many of SNP incompetence. Its acceptable debating tactics to use examples to reinforce the point being made. The truth is SNP supporters dont want the SNPs record to be scrutinised because its lamentable.

[frankblack]

And here is me thinking it was a 10% defeat. The No campaign got 55% of the vote on a much higher turnout than the General Election. The Snp did not Achieve 50% at the General Election on a much lower turnout

 

Can I point out thst it was you that raised the issue of political sour grapes and I commented. Is this factually incorrect?

 

The Police debacle is one example amongst many of SNP incompetence. Its acceptable debating tactics to use examples to reinforce the point being made. The truth is SNP supporters dont want the SNPs record to be scrutinised because its lamentable.

Firstly, you and your pal above are tag teaming on this thread. When someone accuses one of you of taking the thread off topic the other jumps in with an off-topic anti-SNP rant.

 

Your obsession with the Referendum result is pathetic. You or your chum were on about the SNP being horsed. They lost but were only 5% from 50% of the vote or 6% to win. That is a tiny margin of defeat and not much to overturn if another one was held (which I don't expect this parliamentary term).

 

The reason that result is irrelevant is we had a general election a few months ago that all but wiped out the unionist parties north of the border. Your party proved it is unelectable up here.

 

As for the Police Scotland situation, how can we be sure these issues would not have happened with localised police resources, duplicating back end functions?

 

I think centralised resources for back end functions is the right way forward, but you always get resistance to change in the public sector. By all accounts there was some fault in the leadership but that has now changed.

[doctor jambo]

As if by magic!!!

 

http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13786591.Stephen_House_in_fresh_row_over_top_cop_appointment/

You would speculate as to why House would have this dude follow him up the road, would you not?

But that would merely be speculation.

And certainly nothing to be concerned about.

[siegementality]

You would speculate as to why House would have this dude follow him up the road, would you not?

But that would merely be speculation.

And certainly nothing to be concerned about.

There is an awful lot of speculation going around though eh.

[doctor jambo]

There is an awful lot of speculation going around though eh.

scurrilous though it is and totally unfounded, saying as House is married to a woman.

[siegementality]

The latest debacle!!

 

http://news.stv.tv/east-central/1329790-pirc-to-investigate-police-scotland-response-to-adelphi-place-incident/

[Maroon Sailor]

The latest debacle!!

http://news.stv.tv/east-central/1329790-pirc-to-investigate-police-scotland-response-to-adelphi-place-incident/

It's not getting any better

[jambos are go!]

This is what you get when you have a one party state and no effective democratic scrutiny from within never mind outwith The  Scottish Government

[TheMaganator]

There's another death as a result of this mob that hasn't been reported yet.

 

A good friend of mine helped recover the body.

 

They're honestly a ****ing shambles.

[Yoda]

scurrilous though it is and totally unfounded, saying as House is married to a woman.

 

...is Mrs House still in the house?

[siegementality]

...is Mrs House still in the house?

I'd imagine House has more than one house where Mrs House could be.

[JamboX2]

One party state is a complete nonsensical term for Scotland, and even if it was then blame the 'opposition'.

Purely because I am what I am, do you think this line of thinking applies in actual one party states? Equally do you think that it applies in other democracies, like South Africa, where the education system has failed the majority and they don't understand the situation and choices well enough?

 

Genuine question. Because whilst the opposition in Scotland has for a time been poorly lead, I think there's been an equal amount of spin and mistruth spread by the SNP on certain issues and circular arguments which negate opposition as either being negative for negative sake or anti-Scottish, which has weakened opposition parties.

 

The amalgamated police force has had serious issues, but don't forget that the opposition in Scotland favoured this approach and would have arguably implemented if they were capable of winning an election.

Yup, the tories and labour backed it. Many of their amendments were rejected by the SNP at committee and parliamentary stages. Now we have a police force which is dysfunctional and at the same time a government refusing to deal with the issue. At least the opposition parties as a whole from Tory to Labour to Green and all between believe major structural and governance reforms are needed to both the police and SPA. If only those with powers to do something would act...

[TheMaganator]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34424206

 

A third of Police Scotland staff 'plan to leave'

 

in the next shree years...

 

(out of a poll of 12k/50% of its employees)

 

Sturgeon should accept defeat and move in to change things back. For me, I have much more respect for politicians who hold their hands up and say 'yeah, we got it wrong'. For as long as she doesn't it is simply a stick for her opponents to beat her with. 

[The Mighty Thor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34424206

 

A third of Police Scotland staff 'plan to leave'

 

in the next shree years...

 

(out of a poll of 12k/50% of its employees)

 

Sturgeon should accept defeat and move in to change things back. For me, I have much more respect for politicians who hold their hands up and say 'yeah, we got it wrong'. For as long as she doesn't it is simply a stick for her opponents to beat her with. 

 

Bad SNP.

 

Changing it back isn't an option. It had to change and it has. It will get better once things settle down and once House his hand picked team of yes men have been jogged on. The thing they got most wrong was the 'glasgowfication' of the whole thing. They took the most backward force and tried to enforce that model on what were otherwise perfectly functioning police forces.

 

As for the Bad SNP part: it was fully supported across Holyrood, regardless of what selective memories Ruthy and Kdug might have. 

[TheMaganator]

Bad SNP.

 

Changing it back isn't an option. It had to change and it has. It will get better once things settle down and once House his hand picked team of yes men have been jogged on. The thing they got most wrong was the 'glasgowfication' of the whole thing. They took the most backward force and tried to enforce that model on what were otherwise perfectly functioning police forces.

 

As for the Bad SNP part: it was fully supported across Holyrood, regardless of what selective memories Ruthy and Kdug might have.

When did the memo go out saying you were to respond to all and any criticism of the SNP with SNP BAD?

 

In my head, when I read it, it sounds like SNP bad, rather than S.N.P. B.A.D. Which is it, out of interest?

 

It's pretty obvious that it's just a deflection tactic. I don't care if Ruth supported it. It's a shambles and only Sturgeon can do anything about it. The SNP have presided over it for years and it's just awful.

 

No amount of attempted deflection with SNP BAD will change that.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

 

When did the memo go out saying you were to respond to all and any criticism of the SNP with SNP BAD?

 

In my head, when I read it, it sounds like SNP bad, rather than S.N.P. B.A.D. Which is it, out of interest?

 

It's pretty obvious that it's just a deflection tactic. I don't care if Ruth supported it. It's a shambles and only Sturgeon can do anything about it. The SNP have presided over it for years and it's just awful.

 

No amount of attempted deflection with SNP BAD will change that.

Predictable.

Every post is SNP BAD. Every single one.

 

It's been on the go for two years. There's issues with it. No one is denying it. Let's see where it is in two years time.

 

There's no reflection about it. 4th choice Ruthy backed it. So did grim Jim.

 

Still horse on. SNP BAD

 

you've missed this years 350m underspend too. SNP BAD

[siegementality]

The only person directly responsible for this shambles is House. His draconian, bullying management style - which his lackies have eagerly followed - is the reason this organisation and staff are on its knees. He has introduced procedures and policies long since abandoned by his beloved Met, and has taken policing in Scotland back ten years. He should be bulleted now so the new cheif can come in and make a start on repairing the damage.

[TheMaganator]

There's not just issues with it. People are dying because it's such a farce.

 

Who cares who backed it. It isn't working. Or shall we just wait and see how many more people will die before we realise it's not working.

 

The SNP Bad thing is truly tragic though pal. The SNP Are the party of government. People are going to discuss the issues with them at the forefront.

 

I've raised the underspend elsewhere. If you can locate it maybe we can discuss it

[Deevers]

The only person directly responsible for this shambles is House. His draconian, bullying management style - which his lackies have eagerly followed - is the reason this organisation and staff are on its knees. He has introduced procedures and policies long since abandoned by his beloved Met, and has taken policing in Scotland back ten years. He should be bulleted now so the new cheif can come in and make a start on repairing the damage.

 

 

Not only House to blame. His political masters who appointed him and who continually backed him to the hilt are the biggest culprits. They have stuck their collective heads into the sand and refused to acknowledge that there was anything wrong. There should be at least one political head that rolls because of this - but it won't. With this administration it's always someone else's fault.

[Gorgiewave]

Police Scotland: several avoidable deaths, a culture of bullying, rock bottom morale, armed police, stop and search.

Education: falling standards of literacy, 140,000 college places no longer available.

Local government: underfunding due to an eight-year council tax freeze.

Named Person.

Anti-fracking but pro-oil.

Ban on GM crops and contempt for scientific advice.

Integrity: an MP has resigned the whip due to alleged dodgy dealings and exploitation of people poorer than herself.

Tea in the Park given a government grant for no clear reason with personal connections mixed in there.

The lie in 2007 about ending student debt which came to nought.

 

The list is lenghtening.

 

And the tick is tocking.

[JamboX2]

How are we to critique government nowadays?

[aussieh]

Police Scotland: several avoidable deaths, a culture of bullying, rock bottom morale, armed police, stop and search.

Education: falling standards of literacy, 140,000 college places no longer available.

Local government: underfunding due to an eight-year council tax freeze.

Named Person.

Anti-fracking but pro-oil.

Ban on GM crops and contempt for scientific advice.

Integrity: an MP has resigned the whip due to alleged dodgy dealings and exploitation of people poorer than herself.

Tea in the Park given a government grant for no clear reason with personal connections mixed in there.

The lie in 2007 about ending student debt which came to nought.

 

The list is lenghtening.

 

And the tick is tocking.

Aye for the UK.

[JamboX2]

Aye for the UK.

If it is in stoppage time, why no rush to kill it off?

[aussieh]

If it is in stoppage time, why no rush to kill it off?

Why? A dish served cold.

Tory cuts, lets have them, then step aside and wait.

[TheMaganator]

Police Scotland: several avoidable deaths, a culture of bullying, rock bottom morale, armed police, stop and search.

Education: falling standards of literacy, 140,000 college places no longer available.

Local government: underfunding due to an eight-year council tax freeze.

Named Person.

Anti-fracking but pro-oil.

Ban on GM crops and contempt for scientific advice.

Integrity: an MP has resigned the whip due to alleged dodgy dealings and exploitation of people poorer than herself.

Tea in the Park given a government grant for no clear reason with personal connections mixed in there.

The lie in 2007 about ending student debt which came to nought.

 

The list is lenghtening.

 

And the tick is tocking.

[Gorgiewave]

If it is in stoppage time, why no rush to kill it off?

 

Please remind me of your reason for voting Yes. Was it to see new thinking or shake things up?

 

Would you still vote Yes tomorrow?

[JamboX2]

Please remind me of your reason for voting Yes. Was it to see new thinking or shake things up?

 

Would you still vote Yes tomorrow?

Mixture of to kill a debate that will never die and is sucking any purpose out of Scottish politics and to make a government in Scotland finally deal with the issues affecting Scotland.

 

Personally, devolution is an excellent solution. I think it's daft in an interconnected 21st century world of various unions to end one like the uk which has been one of the most successful inter country unions ever. I read an article by Angus Roxburgh of the BBC in which he interviewed the former Slovakian foreign minister of the 1990s who said his biggest regret in politics is not maintaining a federal Czechoslovakia. However, he pointed out that if it had been the Slovak parliament would've been dominated not by issues of schools and hospitals but by the questions of nationality.

 

Sadly, Scotland is proving true to form and stuck to the broken record he spoke of. However, if again, I'd vote no.

[Chester™]

As someone who's partner is a Slovak, I can say that a federal Czechoslovakia wouldn't have lasted, regardless of what question(s) led the debate.

[JamboX2]

As someone who's partner is a Slovak, I can say that a federal Czechoslovakia wouldn't have lasted, regardless of what question(s) led the debate.

I think that was what Roxburgh was getting at. He was making the point that some things can't last. However, I think the uk is different.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

 

There's not just issues with it. People are dying because it's such a farce.

 

Who cares who backed it. It isn't working. Or shall we just wait and see how many more people will die before we realise it's not working.

 

The SNP Bad thing is truly tragic though pal. The SNP Are the party of government. People are going to discuss the issues with them at the forefront.

 

I've raised the underspend elsewhere. If you can locate it maybe we can discuss it [emoji106]

People have died. People died when L&B were on the go.

Have you got any solutions or is it just regurgitating the same pish from BBC web articles?

It won't go back to 6 forces so then what?

 

It's important who backed it because you constantly ram it home about the SNP. in the hugely unlikely event of Ruthy ever forming a government, she'd have done the same. Can you get your head round that?

 

Your constant SNP BAD schtick is utterly tragic mate. You're a decent poster but it really belies your intelligence.

 

We've done the underspend thing though haven't we. You did the 'Daily mail' number on it before it was pointed out you didn't understand government departmental budgeting.

[Gorgiewave]

People have died. People died when L&B were on the go.

Have you got any solutions or is it just regurgitating the same pish from BBC web articles?

It won't go back to 6 forces so then what?

 

It's important who backed it because you constantly ram it home about the SNP. in the hugely unlikely event of Ruthy ever forming a government, she'd have done the same. Can you get your head round that?

 

Your constant SNP BAD schtick is utterly tragic mate. You're a decent poster but it really belies your intelligence.

 

We've done the underspend thing though haven't we. You did the 'Daily mail' number on it before it was pointed out you didn't understand government departmental budgeting.

 

Overconfidence, not listening and not adjusting anything based on criticism will do for the SNP one day.

 

I'll pull this thread up if nobody else does.

 

Nippy is just scandalised that anybody would have the god awful brass neck to raise any points against the SNP. Any criticism of the SNP is just evidence of people not getting it.

 

When it crashes, the big gala day is over and people have to go back to their lonely lives, it will be a sight.

[Chester™]

I think that was what Roxburgh was getting at. He was making the point that some things can't last. However, I think the uk is different.

 

Possibly. That wasnt the crux of your post though.

[JamboX2]

They exist, but we're not an example of one. PR is a system that allows the opposition to have a prominant voice. Also, how many councils in Scotland are non-SNP? A majority I still believe.

 

I think the SNP have control in most councils. Labour run the 3 of the 4 biggest ones either in majority, minority or coalition. So in the round the SNP are the party of Scottish government at all levels. My issue is they act as a party of opposition in government and don't listen to criticism in a reasonaed way.

 

Sorry but Labour and the Tories are culpable for their current state. With Corbyn, things might have been different but then he spouts off that the SNP are responsible for the CALMAC situation and nationalising the railways?! Absolutely clueless, it tells you how much Labour values Scottish politics.

He's not wrong though. The SNP are tendering calmac routes to the private sector when they don't need to and they had a chance to nationalise scotrail but sold he rights to Abelio, the Dutch government in effect, and since then passenger satisfaction has dropped and the service levels have slumped.

 

But the again, he's a London MP. He doesn't need to know what's going on to a minute detail everywhere does he? What does Sturgeon know of London rent and house prices? Or schools in Wales?

 

It's the message that matters and the want to lead. We can't expect leaders to have an understanding of the intricacies of all things all the time.

[Deevers]

People have died. People died when L&B were on the go.

Have you gyot any solutions or is it just regurgitating the same pish from BBC web articles?

It won't go back to 6 forces so then what?

It's important who backed it because you constantly ram it home about the SNP. in the hugely unlikely event of Ruthy ever forming a government, she'd have done the same. Can you get your head round that?

Your constant SNP BAD schtick is utterly tragic mate. You're a decent poster but it really belies your intelligence.

We've done the underspend thing though haven't we. You did the 'Daily mail' number on it before it was pointed out you didn't understand government departmental budgeting.

 

The idea of reform is to improve things. It's become increasingly obvious that the Police reforms far from improving things has actually made things worse.. Good policing comes from recognising that local problems need local solutions. Unfortunely we are all saddled with a one size fits all police service. Any credible government would have seen that things were not working eighteen months ago and set about sorting things out. We now have a service that is riddled with discontent and a possible haemorrhaging of experience on the horizon, yet whst do we get from our politicians - a deafening silence. This is a problem that affects every man woman and child in Scotland, I just wish they would stop the churlish inability to admit that they have got things wrong and start to look for solutions.

[JamboX2]

Possibly. That wasnt the crux of your post though.

Just paraphrasing what I read. But I took it to mean that had a Czechoslovakia lasted the national Parliaments would've been in the boat Scotland is of debating nationalistic issues rather than schools and hospitals. Rather independence by accident helped avoid a stalemate on one issue.

 

I think Scotland needs to move beyond last year. But I don't think for us independence is a quick fix to bypass these issues for Scotland. As in hindsight we were opening a new box of centralism in Scotland to Edinburgh vs localism. Scotland is a basket case on a lot of things and needs change before it can really consider independence.

[The Mighty Thor]

 

 

Overconfidence, not listening and not adjusting anything based on criticism will do for the SNP one day.

 

I'll pull this thread up if nobody else does.

 

Nippy is just scandalised that anybody would have the god awful brass neck to raise any points against the SNP. Any criticism of the SNP is just evidence of people not getting it.

 

When it crashes, the big gala day is over and people have to go back to their lonely lives, it will be a sight.

It may well do. Then what will come along behind? Corbyn's disfunctional mob? What's the latest? Don't mention Scottish Labour, its Glasgow and Edinburgh Labour?

 

It's great the way the SNP raises an ire in people who support parties in Scotland who's branch offices have fiddled while their central offices and governments have flushed Scotland down the shitter.

 

They don't like it up em.

[Chester™]

Just paraphrasing what I read. But I took it to mean that had a Czechoslovakia lasted the national Parliaments would've been in the boat Scotland is of debating nationalistic issues rather than schools and hospitals. Rather independence by accident helped avoid a stalemate on one issue.

 

 

 

It wasnt an 'accident' and such issues were already there and being discussed. Would that have continued had they somehow managed to cobble together a continuing Union? Perhaps, but it would have been part of a number of issues, not the focus. Fundamentally, their Union was done before it was official.

[JamboX2]

 

It may well do. Then what will come along behind? Corbyn's disfunctional mob? What's the latest? Don't mention Scottish Labour, its Glasgow and Edinburgh Labour?

 

It's great the way the SNP raises an ire in people who support parties in Scotland who's branch offices have fiddled while their central offices and governments have flushed Scotland down the shitter.

 

They don't like it up em.

What's your alternative? Independence under the centrist SNP who have failed on their biggest promises of council tax reform, educational reform and abolishing student debt in favour of populist tax freezes and free bridge tolls? Who botched an open goal referendum against an Etonian government and a divided Labour Party and who couldn't put forward a coherent argument?

 

Because for all the failings of the opposition in Scotland, and there are many from conceit to infighting, the SNP are doing well as a devolved government and an opposition at London to hold the public attention and affection. But when their time truly came, they botched it.

[Chester™]

It may well do. Then what will come along behind? Corbyn's disfunctional mob? What's the latest? Don't mention Scottish Labour, its Glasgow and Edinburgh Labour?

 

It's great the way the SNP raises an ire in people who support parties in Scotland who's branch offices have fiddled while their central offices and governments have flushed Scotland down the shitter.

 

They don't like it up em.

 

A pretty decent way of looking it at is this:

 

The SNP have become the 'party of government' after being the opposition for a number of years. They still havent quite worked out how to do the opposite effectively yet such as the burying their head in the sand over the nature of this thread. This is obvious by the party' supporters in this thread.

 

The likes of Labour and the Tories are the reverse. Usually when this happens, the ire and snarky bits become more obvious and a case of 'but maw, they've took ma baw'. Furthermore, the sneering arrogance of the Labour Party, with regard to Scotland, has been obvious, including by its own grassroots but not by those in charge and those who shout loudest.This is the reason they got utterly wiped out in the 2015 GE. Its also quite prevalent in this thread.

 

Until both sides actually come together and work like the Parliament was intended, and had been going well until the SNP majority (a main reason the voting system was put in the first place) appeared, leaving the political classes in complete shock. This wont change until the utterly tiresome pettiness is drawn back a bit.

[Chester™]

What's your alternative? Independence under the centrist SNP who have failed on their biggest promises of council tax reform, educational reform and abolishing student debt in favour of populist tax freezes and free bridge tolls? Who botched an open goal referendum against an Etonian government and a divided Labour Party and who couldn't put forward a coherent argument?

 

Because for all the failings of the opposition in Scotland, and there are many from conceit to infighting, the SNP are doing well as a devolved government and an opposition at London to hold the public attention and affection. But when their time truly came, they botched it.

 

Oh come come X2. You know better than you're second sentence and know fine well that London pissed about with the Scottish budget enough that those 'promises' werent a goer. And lets face it, they broke promises. So have every party in Government. To say otherwise is absolutely misleading and completely disingenuous.

[JamboX2]

Re CALMAC, is there not some sort of EU regulation that states that the tender must go out? The SNP are simply following the same practice as Labour did when they were in control, why now a scandal?

 

The nationalisation of railways has never been a devolved matter, the SNP at no point could have introduced this.

 

True, he doesn't need to know the intricacies of Scotland as he can rely on his trusty drones north of the border but to attack the SNP with lies as an opener - same old Labour. This is after the expected 'come home to labour' plea, spouted by every leader it seems since '81. Their death march nears the end...

On your first point, there are exemptions. One of which was used by the previous government to ensure Calmac stayed on as sole operator. As it should as these are a lifeline for many of the communities that are out that way.

 

The railways can be. The franchise, if not awarded, lapses to the ownership of the franchise holder. That is the Scottish Government. So the railway returns to national ownership. Now, we got a section 30 power to deliver a referendum on a reserved issue. Why not ask for that section 30 power on the railways? It's easy done. And it's a policy choice! Event the SNP said they may review the decision in 2016.

 

But to say Corbyn was lying on both is a stretch.

 

As for your last point, if Labour does die. Who replaces them? What other party is as concerned with Trade Unions and has the same focus there? The SNP are pro-business more than pro-worker and their attitude towards certain issues around housing, council budgets, and welfare haven't been very encouraging. To me.

 

Scotland needs a strong Labour Party and the U.K. does too.

 

And yes, that's why there is national parties in Labour and the Liberal Democrats. The belief that people who live and work in those areas being best placed to deal with the concerns of those areas directly is a hallmark of devolution and the devolution parties. Call them drones, but I prefer to think of it as a mature way of doing politics.

[JamboX2]

Oh come come X2. You know better than you're second sentence and know fine well that London pissed about with the Scottish budget enough that those 'promises' werent a goer. And lets face it, they broke promises. So have every party in Government. To say otherwise is absolutely misleading and completely disingenuous.

The Scottish budget has been increasing every year since 1999. The SNP have had more than any other Scottish government to spend. It was their choice to abolish bridge tolls over paying for more school teachers or a council tax freeze over council tax reform.

 

Yes all parties break their promises. But that doesn't excuse looking at their record objectively and matching it to their rhetoric. Happily admit that for all the good Brown and Blair did in office the Iraq war is a blight on their time in office.

[Chester™]

 

 

The Scottish budget has been increasing every year since 1999. The SNP have had more than any other Scottish government to spend. It was their choice to abolish bridge tolls over paying for more school teachers or a council tax freeze over council tax reform.

 

Yes all parties break their promises. But that doesn't excuse looking at their record objectively and matching it to their rhetoric. Happily admit that for all the good Brown and Blair did in office the Iraq war is a blight on their time in office.

And they were given budgets less than what they could have got, because of what they originally wanted to do with them. A number of commentators, on each side, said as much as well. And IIRC, they were explicitly told that if they didn't drop such proposals, they'd get a cut rather than the 'increase' (and, of course, an increased budget isnt the whole story, due to cost increases, similar to, Health, as you well know).

 

Its all very well saying 'be objective' but at least actually be objective. Some of their record is utterly shameful. Some of it isn't. You're usually better than this.

 

Their 'promise' on student debt relief had one of my pals, a staunch Labour supporter, voting for the SNP. He was utterly dismayed at it not coming to fruition. But after a bit of digging, used what I said above to come to the same conclusion. And as a result, voted for them again (whilst voting No and Labour at the GE).

[The Mighty Thor]

What's your alternative? Independence under the centrist SNP who have failed on their biggest promises of council tax reform, educational reform and abolishing student debt in favour of populist tax freezes and free bridge tolls? Who botched an open goal referendum against an Etonian government and a divided Labour Party and who couldn't put forward a coherent argument?

 

Because for all the failings of the opposition in Scotland, and there are many from conceit to infighting, the SNP are doing well as a devolved government and an opposition at London to hold the public attention and affection. But when their time truly came, they botched it.

 

If the independence question raises it's head again (and i'm sure it will in the next 20 years) then the people of Scotland will once again take to the polls to make the decision. Have the SNP got everything right? No. Have they got everything wrong? No. I'd reckon their strike rate is commensurate with every single government in Scotland or rUK since day dot.

 

I can see how its easy (and pretty lazy) to look at everyone who makes any kind of pro SNP comment as being single issue focussed on Independence, it is the parties raison d'etre after all, but there's a lot of SNP members and voters, me included, who voted for them because we feel they offer a better alternative in Scotland to a busted Labour party and an irrelevant Conservative party. Not every SNP voter is running about shouting for Freeeeedum!

 

A pretty decent way of looking it at is this:

 

The SNP have become the 'party of government' after being the opposition for a number of years. They still havent quite worked out how to do the opposite effectively yet such as the burying their head in the sand over the nature of this thread. This is obvious by the party' supporters in this thread.

 

The likes of Labour and the Tories are the reverse. Usually when this happens, the ire and snarky bits become more obvious and a case of 'but maw, they've took ma baw'. Furthermore, the sneering arrogance of the Labour Party, with regard to Scotland, has been obvious, including by its own grassroots but not by those in charge and those who shout loudest.This is the reason they got utterly wiped out in the 2015 GE. Its also quite prevalent in this thread.

 

Until both sides actually come together and work like the Parliament was intended, and had been going well until the SNP majority (a main reason the voting system was put in the first place) appeared, leaving the political classes in complete shock. This wont change until the utterly tiresome pettiness is drawn back a bit.

 

Can't argue with a lot of that.

[The Mighty Thor]

The idea of reform is to improve things. It's become increasingly obvious that the Police reforms far from improving things has actually made things worse.. Good policing comes from recognising that local problems need local solutions. Unfortunely we are all saddled with a one size fits all police service. Any credible government would have seen that things were not working eighteen months ago and set about sorting things out. We now have a service that is riddled with discontent and a possible haemorrhaging of experience on the horizon, yet whst do we get from our politicians - a deafening silence. This is a problem that affects every man woman and child in Scotland, I just wish they would stop the churlish inability to admit that they have got things wrong and start to look for solutions.

 

Of course the idea of reform is to improve things, however it doesn't happen overnight. You are trying to take 8 forces, 8 command and control structures, 8 ways of working and mesh it in together from a day 1 start date of 1st April 2013. You have to realise that the real work of integration started after that date, not before it because the day to day policing had to continue. Any structural change of that magnitude, whether in business or public service, takes at least 18-24 months to work its way through and it's at that point you judge it and make the necessary changes to continue to improve the service.

Are there unhappy people in the service? Yes. They're more frustrated than unhappy actually as the premise of what's been done is sound, it's been the execution of elements like the Area command and control centres that have been wrong.

The police is and always was facing a bit of a doomsday scenario on losing experienced officers. Why? Because the reforms to the police pension scheme means that the days of 25 years service are gone. It's not a job for life any more as the officers with less service now don't have the 'golden handcuffs' of the big pension, so now you'll get kids in who do 5-10 years then do something else. That's got nothing to do with the SNP.

 

House will go shortly and someone more reformist will come in and make the changes and the service will find it's equilibrium again and it'll be driven by professional Police officers and not politicians because i'd personally rather the politicians kept well out of it. 

[kylelauren01]

Of course the idea of reform is to improve things, however it doesn't happen overnight. You are trying to take 8 forces, 8 command and control structures, 8 ways of working and mesh it in together from a day 1 start date of 1st April 2013. You have to realise that the real work of integration started after that date, not before it because the day to day policing had to continue. Any structural change of that magnitude, whether in business or public service, takes at least 18-24 months to work its way through and it's at that point you judge it and make the necessary changes to continue to improve the service.

Are there unhappy people in the service? Yes. They're more frustrated than unhappy actually as the premise of what's been done is sound, it's been the execution of elements like the Area command and control centres that have been wrong.

The police is and always was facing a bit of a doomsday scenario on losing experienced officers. Why? Because the reforms to the police pension scheme means that the days of 25 years service are gone. It's not a job for life any more as the officers with less service now don't have the 'golden handcuffs' of the big pension, so now you'll get kids in who do 5-10 years then do something else. That's got nothing to do with the SNP.

 

House will go shortly and someone more reformist will come in and make the changes and the service will find it's equilibrium again and it'll be driven by professional Police officers and not politicians because i'd personally rather the politicians kept well out of it.

Disagree, frustration is temporary, it's definitely unhappiness, and in many cases it's beyond that and has been for some time with no change on the immediate horizon.

[JamboX2]

If the independence question raises it's head again (and i'm sure it will in the next 20 years) then the people of Scotland will once again take to the polls to make the decision. Have the SNP got everything right? No. Have they got everything wrong? No. I'd reckon their strike rate is commensurate with every single government in Scotland or rUK since day dot.

 

I can see how its easy (and pretty lazy) to look at everyone who makes any kind of pro SNP comment as being single issue focussed on Independence, it is the parties raison d'etre after all, but there's a lot of SNP members and voters, me included, who voted for them because we feel they offer a better alternative in Scotland to a busted Labour party and an irrelevant Conservative party. Not every SNP voter is running about shouting for Freeeeedum!

 

My post acknowledges that point.

 

But, the reason we have an SNP is single issue. They weren't established as the party to campaign for competent and managerial governance. Nor as a party to represent Scottish business. Nor as a party of the Trade Unions and workers. They were established to win Scottish independence.

 

They had that chance and botched it. It's a massive failure which due to an incredibly energised campaign resulting in a massive membership, has caused the SNP to almost glaze over causes of defeat and instead focus on the next "push" and the means to force another vote. Rather than a more reserved approach of reviewing where they went wrong (85% of the defeat could be labelled 'the Alex Salmond conundrum') and a renewed effort on domestic issues, we have again moved to a 2011 style relentlessness on the issue of independence. A statement cannot be made without the mentioning of "borrowed time" and random threats as to the next steps to achieve a second vote. They even speak of blocking new powers coming in.

 

I'd have a lot more time for the SNP if they actually said to the people - Yes we focuses on independence and didn't win. Therefore our pledge is to focus on the issues of education, health, housing and the police and tackle these issues with the powers we have with a relentlessness you've never seen before. And if you think we've done a lot to turn the tide here, back independence at a later date.

 

I thought Sturgeon was on the verge of that in November/December last year but it's gone the other way and I think it's a very conceited and arrogant attitude to take, because things aren't all rosy in the garden.

 

Personally, if the SNP are to win next May I'd rather it be under a minority administration. As then the other parties have to work or suffer and it would cut out the bile which has been building up.

[JamboX2]

Of course the idea of reform is to improve things, however it doesn't happen overnight. You are trying to take 8 forces, 8 command and control structures, 8 ways of working and mesh it in together from a day 1 start date of 1st April 2013. You have to realise that the real work of integration started after that date, not before it because the day to day policing had to continue. Any structural change of that magnitude, whether in business or public service, takes at least 18-24 months to work its way through and it's at that point you judge it and make the necessary changes to continue to improve the service.

Are there unhappy people in the service? Yes. They're more frustrated than unhappy actually as the premise of what's been done is sound, it's been the execution of elements like the Area command and control centres that have been wrong.

The police is and always was facing a bit of a doomsday scenario on losing experienced officers. Why? Because the reforms to the police pension scheme means that the days of 25 years service are gone. It's not a job for life any more as the officers with less service now don't have the 'golden handcuffs' of the big pension, so now you'll get kids in who do 5-10 years then do something else. That's got nothing to do with the SNP.

 

House will go shortly and someone more reformist will come in and make the changes and the service will find it's equilibrium again and it'll be driven by professional Police officers and not politicians because i'd personally rather the politicians kept well out of it.

That doesn't explain why the amalgamation of the fire and ambulance services haven't resulted in a similar amount of crisis and dissatisfaction from within as the new police force has.

 

Personally, I agree with Deevers. Local policing is the best form of policing. That doesn't mean 8 forces. It means there should be a commander for all local authorities with control over deployment of resources in his area to focus on local issues. The failings of the Police Scotland force are in terms of the accountability it lacks - the SPA is weak and toothless and let House run riot - the lack of respect for local social and justice issues - see the tolerance policies of Edinburgh and Aberdeen with sex workers be progressively diminished over the past few years and moves against it on public drinking in Edinburgh - and of enacting policies which change the shape of policing in Scotland but with no accountability to parliament on them - armed officers on routine patrol.

 

Add to that closing desks and reducing the police backroom staff numbers to an extent that police officers need to fill those roles and you've got a pretty substandard service stretched to breaking point with a standing diminished in the eyes of the public.

 

It needs major reform again. The Chief Constable role needs diluted and local commanders need more powers to focus on the issues of their areas rather than the targets from above. Ireland and the Nordic nations have single tier forces but have greater local control spread across the country rather than the Scottish idea of a single force run by one man implementing policies he used for Strathclyde to areas which they aren't designed to operate in.

[aussieh]

That doesn't explain why the amalgamation of the fire and ambulance services haven't resulted in a similar amount of crisis and dissatisfaction from within as the new police force has.

 

Personally, I agree with Deevers. Local policing is the best form of policing. That doesn't mean 8 forces. It means there should be a commander for all local authorities with control over deployment of resources in his area to focus on local issues. The failings of the Police Scotland force are in terms of the accountability it lacks - the SPA is weak and toothless and let House run riot - the lack of respect for local social and justice issues - see the tolerance policies of Edinburgh and Aberdeen with sex workers be progressively diminished over the past few years and moves against it on public drinking in Edinburgh - and of enacting policies which change the shape of policing in Scotland but with no accountability to parliament on them - armed officers on routine patrol.

 

Add to that closing desks and reducing the police backroom staff numbers to an extent that police officers need to fill those roles and you've got a pretty substandard service stretched to breaking point with a standing diminished in the eyes of the public.

 

It needs major reform again. The Chief Constable role needs diluted and local commanders need more powers to focus on the issues of their areas rather than the targets from above. Ireland and the Nordic nations have single tier forces but have greater local control spread across the country rather than the Scottish idea of a single force run by one man implementing policies he used for Strathclyde to areas which they aren't designed to operate in.

It takes time.

[JamboX2]

It takes time.

No doubting that Aus.

 

But, it's clear that the accountability issue is a big one and the force hasn't exactly been transparent since the changes. Hell, they even bugged journalists for no real reasons. None of that is remotely acceptable.

 

All I'm proposing is greater transparency, greater local government input and accountability from all levels of our representatives. If scrap the SPA tomorrow and replace it with a Police Sub-Commitee at Parliament with Policing Committees in every local authority across Scotland. Civil servants aren't accountable to us directly, so they should be to our politicians. And the SPA isn't that. It's civil servants watching over civil servants.