Police Scotland

[aussieh]

No doubting that Aus.

 

But, it's clear that the accountability issue is a big one and the force hasn't exactly been transparent since the changes. Hell, they even bugged journalists for no real reasons. None of that is remotely acceptable.

 

All I'm proposing is greater transparency, greater local government input and accountability from all levels of our representatives. If scrap the SPA tomorrow and replace it with a Police Sub-Commitee at Parliament with Policing Committees in every local authority across Scotland. Civil servants aren't accountable to us directly, so they should be to our politicians. And the SPA isn't that. It's civil servants watching over civil servants.

All fine by me, but this Weegie Polis tag is a load of pish.

[Deevers]

Of course the idea of reform is to improve things, however it doesn't happen overnight. You are trying to take 8 forces, 8 command and control structures, 8 ways of working and mesh it in together from a day 1 start date of 1st April 2013. You have to realise that the real work of integration started after that date, not before it because the day to day policing had to continue. Any structural change of that magnitude, whether in business or public service, takes at least 18-24 months to work its way through and it's at that point you judge it and make the necessary changes to continue to improve the service.

Are there unhappy people in the service? Yes. They're more frustrated than unhappy actually as the premise of what's been done is sound, it's been the execution of elements like the Area command and control centres that have been wrong.

The police is and always was facing a bit of a doomsday scenario on losing experienced officers. Why? Because the reforms to the police pension scheme means that the days of 25 years service are gone. It's not a job for life any more as the officers with less service now don't have the 'golden handcuffs' of the big pension, so now you'll get kids in who do 5-10 years then do something else. That's got nothing to do with the SNP.

 

House will go shortly and someone more reformist will come in and make the changes and the service will find it's equilibrium again and it'll be driven by professional Police officers and not politicians because i'd personally rather the politicians kept well out of it.

 

 

 

The simple truth is that we now have an organisation that is far too large. There had been an almighty rush to create Police Scotland for purely political purposes. The writing was there on the wall about the major problems that there were inside the organisation 18 months ago and all we got from the Scottish Government was head in the sand denials. My god they even created a Further level of abject beaurocracy to run in tandem with the Police Service. That in it's self created internal friction and infighting st the top of the tree. That was created by politicians and it appears to me that this whole organisation has political overtones now and is marching to political agendas and not to the local agendas that it should be doing.

[The Mighty Thor]

Disagree, frustration is temporary, it's definitely unhappiness, and in many cases it's beyond that and has been for some time with no change on the immediate horizon.

 

No it's definitely frustration. If it was anything else you'd have officers leaving in their droves. They're not. The majority can see why police Scotland came into being and the majority can see that it can be fixed without major restructuring.

[Deevers]

No it's definitely frustration. If it was anything else you'd have officers leaving in their droves. They're not. The majority can see why police Scotland came into being and the majority can see that it can be fixed without major restructuring.

 

That's certainly not what the staff indicates. There is a major problem with retention. In certain parts of Scotland it has become almost critical.

[Nelly Terraces]

Not wanting to be involved in the peripheral debate here, but no question, the complete mess Police Scotland is in is 100% down to the SNP. It's inception and management have been an utter shambles and the blame lies at their door.

[The Mighty Thor]

That doesn't explain why the amalgamation of the fire and ambulance services haven't resulted in a similar amount of crisis and dissatisfaction from within as the new police force has.

 

Personally, I agree with Deevers. Local policing is the best form of policing. That doesn't mean 8 forces. It means there should be a commander for all local authorities with control over deployment of resources in his area to focus on local issues. The failings of the Police Scotland force are in terms of the accountability it lacks - the SPA is weak and toothless and let House run riot - the lack of respect for local social and justice issues - see the tolerance policies of Edinburgh and Aberdeen with sex workers be progressively diminished over the past few years and moves against it on public drinking in Edinburgh - and of enacting policies which change the shape of policing in Scotland but with no accountability to parliament on them - armed officers on routine patrol.

 

Add to that closing desks and reducing the police backroom staff numbers to an extent that police officers need to fill those roles and you've got a pretty substandard service stretched to breaking point with a standing diminished in the eyes of the public.

 

It needs major reform again. The Chief Constable role needs diluted and local commanders need more powers to focus on the issues of their areas rather than the targets from above. Ireland and the Nordic nations have single tier forces but have greater local control spread across the country rather than the Scottish idea of a single force run by one man implementing policies he used for Strathclyde to areas which they aren't designed to operate in.

 

The amalgamation of fire and ambulance services has not been that smooth either but you are talking about two far smaller and less complex organisations. It's apples and pears.

 

Lets bust a myth wide open here. You've still got local policing. Youve still got the same stations as you had with L&B, so Craigmillar, Howdenhall, St Leonards and Corstorphine are still there. They're even staffed by the same cops as were there on 31st March 2013. There is still an area command structure in the Lothians, there's still Chief Inspectors, Cheif supers and an ACC. The cops in Edinburgh still do what they did. The laws haven't changed. Stephen House isn't sitting in a bunker in Pitt Street directing the cars around portobello. 

The changes to the tolerance on drinking in the streets and saunas were in conjunction with the local politicians of City of Edinburgh Council. The police didn't do this unilaterally.

Lets bust another myth. There have been armed police on the streets on Scotland for 20 years or more. They are on 'routine' patrol and in the past they could attend jobs where their firearms were locked in the gun safe of their specialised patrol cars. Now they can't attend jobs as they are not allowed to leave their weapons in the car.

 

You do realise that the police, like all other public services are under extraordinary budget pressure? That's the reason that police officers are backfilling what were civilian jobs once. Its all about money. Furthermore you haven't got a substandard service at all, you've got a media shitstorm on the back of a few high profile incidents and it's suddenly cool to say the police do a shit job. 

 

It doesn't need major reform. It needs evolution, not revolution.

 

You're taking what you read in the press at face value mate. It's not reflective of what cops on the street are doing. 

 

The simple truth is that we now have an organisation that is far too large. There had been an almighty rush to create Police Scotland for purely political purposes. The writing was there on the wall about the major problems that there were inside the organisation 18 months ago and all we got from the Scottish Government was head in the sand denials. My god they even created a Further level of abject beaurocracy to run in tandem with the Police Service. That in it's self created internal friction and infighting st the top of the tree. That was created by politicians and it appears to me that this whole organisation has political overtones now and is marching to political agendas and not to the local agendas that it should be doing.

 

There was an almighty rush to create Police Scotland for financial reasons. All of them quite sound actually. Again you bang on about 18 months ago. Tell me what cataclysmic event happened one year into the existence of Police Scotland that enabled you to draw the conclusion that the thing wouldn't work? Remember you're talking a mere 12 months after they've amalgamated 8 organisations into one.

You do know that L&B used to be answerable to CEC and formerly LRC right? The Police have always 'answered' to politicians since the service was created.

There lots of melodramatic hyperbole and no halfway sensible solutions because again you appear to buy into the fact that House runs the whole show, when in actual fact apart from the farcical changes to the control centre in Roslin, very little has changed for the guys who trap up to work day to day. 

[The Mighty Thor]

That's certainly not what the staff indicates. There is a major problem with retention. In certain parts of Scotland it has become almost critical.

 

The problem with retention is down to the changes in pension as much as anything else. People who once were out after 25 years are now looking at 35 years and for many the thought of rolling around the deck with some pished arsehole on a Friday night at the age of 57 or 58 doesn't appeal. So they cash in and do something else.

 

The staff have no faith in House. He's going and when the next one comes in it could all be different again as the minor changes required are implemented.

[Deevers]

The amalgamation of fire and ambulance services has not been that smooth either but you are talking about two far smaller and less complex organisations. It's apples and pears.

 

Lets bust a myth wide open here. You've still got local policing. Youve still got the same stations as you had with L&B, so Craigmillar, Howdenhall, St Leonards and Corstorphine are still there. They're even staffed by the same cops as were there on 31st March 2013. There is still an area command structure in the Lothians, there's still Chief Inspectors, Cheif supers and an ACC. The cops in Edinburgh still do what they did. The laws haven't changed. Stephen House isn't sitting in a bunker in Pitt Street directing the cars around portobello. 

The changes to the tolerance on drinking in the streets and saunas were in conjunction with the local politicians of City of Edinburgh Council. The police didn't do this unilaterally.

Lets bust another myth. There have been armed police on the streets on Scotland for 20 years or more. They are on 'routine' patrol and in the past they could attend jobs where their firearms were locked in the gun safe of their specialised patrol cars. Now they can't attend jobs as they are not allowed to leave their weapons in the car.

 

You do realise that the police, like all other public services are under extraordinary budget pressure? That's the reason that police officers are backfilling what were civilian jobs once. Its all about money. Furthermore you haven't got a substandard service at all, you've got a media shitstorm on the back of a few high profile incidents and it's suddenly cool to say the police do a shit job. 

 

It doesn't need major reform. It needs evolution, not revolution.

 

You're taking what you read in the press at face value mate. It's not reflective of what cops on the street are doing. 

 

 

 

There was an almighty rush to create Police Scotland for financial reasons. All of them quite sound actually. Again you bang on about 18 months ago. Tell me what cataclysmic event happened one year into the existence of Police Scotland that enabled you to draw the conclusion that the thing wouldn't work? Remember you're talking a mere 12 months after they've amalgamated 8 organisations into one.

You do know that L&B used to be answerable to CEC and formerly LRC right? The Police have always 'answered' to politicians since the service was created.

There lots of melodramatic hyperbole and no halfway sensible solutions because again you appear to buy into the fact that House runs the whole show, when in actual fact apart from the farcical changes to the control centre in Roslin, very little has changed for the guys who trap up to work day to day.

 

 

 

Savings in kind could have been made without creating this far too large organisation. The whole ethos of local solutions to local problems has gone. We now have an organisation with those in charge who are far too remote from the realities day today policing. Things have changed and changed for the worse. That's what the Staff Survey says and all the cringeworthy spin and attempts to put a gloss onto it will not change the stark facts. The organisation as it stands is just not working.

[The Mighty Thor]

Savings in kind could have been made without creating this far too large organisation. The whole ethos of local solutions to local problems has gone. We now have an organisation with those in charge who are far too remote from the realities day today policing. Things have changed and changed for the worse. That's what the Staff Survey says and all the cringeworthy spin and attempts to put a gloss onto it will not change the stark facts. The organisation as it stands is just not working.

No it hasn't. It's still the same cops doing the same job from the same stations as it was before. The badges on the uniforms say police Scotland rather than L&B other than that your day to day interaction with the police hasn't changed one bit. Your perception has though because you take what you read in the press at face value.

Again, what happened 18 months ago that made you draw the conclusion that it wasn't working? 

Tell me what isn't working about the organisation? genuine question.

[Deevers]

No it hasn't. It's still the same cops doing the same job from the same stations as it was before. The badges on the uniforms say police Scotland rather than L&B other than that your day to day interaction with the police hasn't changed one bit. Your perception has though because you take what you read in the press at face value.

Again, what happened 18 months ago that made you draw the conclusion that it wasn't working? 

Tell me what isn't working about the organisation? genuine question.

 

The Area Control Rooms for a start. The loss of local knowledge and the staffing issues are chronic. The number of staff suffering from stress related conditions should be an embarrassment to those in charge. Local priorities are overridden by imperatives from elsewhere. That's why Edinburghshire housebreaking teams were disbanded and the number of HBs went through the roof. The way the issue of the Saunas was dealt with. House did not like the pragmatic way Lothian and Borders dealt with the way the problem was handled so the heavy handed Glasgow way was introduced. The way civilian staff are being hounded out of their jobs - forced to reapply for a diminishing number of posts. The back filling of offices with police officers to compensate for civilian redundancies.

[The Mighty Thor]

The Area Control Rooms for a start. The loss of local knowledge and the staffing issues are chronic. The number of staff suffering from stress related conditions should be an embarrassment to those in charge. Local priorities are overridden by imperatives from elsewhere. That's why Edinburghshire housebreaking teams were disbanded and the number of HBs went through the roof. The way the issue of the Saunas was dealt with. House did not like the pragmatic way Lothian and Borders dealt with the way the problem was handled so the heavy handed Glasgow way was introduced. The way civilian staff are being hounded out of their jobs - forced to reapply for a diminishing number of posts. The back filling of offices with police officers to compensate for civilian redundancies.

 

A point i've made repeatedly on the FCR's. These should have been retained and incorporated into the new structure.

Staff stress - widen it out. Staff sickness and long term conditions. hundreds off at any given time. Was ever thus. 

The whole policing structure was changed - community teams (local policing), response teams, Roads policing etc etc. HB teams were disbanded and then reinstated but actual HB's didn't go through the roof, the number barely changed. The solved cases number changed downwards obviously. 

Again the saunas and drinking in the street came from CEC too. Not a dictat from House. He doesn't have the authority for that.

Civilian staff are losing their jobs down to budget cuts. Jobs are being backfilled by non operational officers ie guys no longer fit enough to walk the beat, the stress sufferers etc. But budget cuts are not unique to Police Scotland. Forces in England Wales and PSNI are all in the same boat.

The one thing you can lay at houses feet though is stop and search. Now that was a debacle.

[EH11_2NL]

That doesn't explain why the amalgamation of the fire and ambulance services haven't resulted in a similar amount of crisis and dissatisfaction from within as the new police force has.

 

Personally, I agree with Deevers. Local policing is the best form of policing. That doesn't mean 8 forces. It means there should be a commander for all local authorities with control over deployment of resources in his area to focus on local issues. The failings of the Police Scotland force are in terms of the accountability it lacks - the SPA is weak and toothless and let House run riot - the lack of respect for local social and justice issues - see the tolerance policies of Edinburgh and Aberdeen with sex workers be progressively diminished over the past few years and moves against it on public drinking in Edinburgh - and of enacting policies which change the shape of policing in Scotland but with no accountability to parliament on them - armed officers on routine patrol.

 

Add to that closing desks and reducing the police backroom staff numbers to an extent that police officers need to fill those roles and you've got a pretty substandard service stretched to breaking point with a standing diminished in the eyes of the public.

 

It needs major reform again. The Chief Constable role needs diluted and local commanders need more powers to focus on the issues of their areas rather than the targets from above. Ireland and the Nordic nations have single tier forces but have greater local control spread across the country rather than the Scottish idea of a single force run by one man implementing policies he used for Strathclyde to areas which they aren't designed to operate in.

The Chief Super was effectively God in the division before PSOS. They had the power before Hoosey micromanaged them all.

[Deevers]

A point i've made repeatedly on the FCR's. These should have been retained and incorporated into the new structure.

Staff stress - widen it out. Staff sickness and long term conditions. hundreds off at any given time. Was ever thus. 

The whole policing structure was changed - community teams (local policing), response teams, Roads policing etc etc. HB teams were disbanded and then reinstated but actual HB's didn't go through the roof, the number barely changed. The solved cases number changed downwards obviously. 

Again the saunas and drinking in the street came from CEC too. Not a dictat from House. He doesn't have the authority for that.

Civilian staff are losing their jobs down to budget cuts. Jobs are being backfilled by non operational officers ie guys no longer fit enough to walk the beat, the stress sufferers etc. But budget cuts are not unique to Police Scotland. Forces in England Wales and PSNI are all in the same boat.

The one thing you can lay at houses feet though is stop and search. Now that was a debacle.

 

The back offices are being filled with cops for only one reason - so that the Scottish Government can crow about police numbers. The reality is that there are probably less cops on the street than there were ten years ago. Civilian staff cost less - so where is the saving in that.

[siegementality]

The Chief Constable role needs diluted and local commanders need more powers to focus on the issues of their areas rather than the targets from above. Ireland and the Nordic nations have single tier forces but have greater local control spread across the country rather than the Scottish idea of a single force run by one man implementing policies he used for Strathclyde to areas which they aren't designed to operate in.

The local commanders job description requires them - as you said - to focus on the issues in their area. They are accountable to local scrutiny boards for exactly that. The role of Chief Constable doesn't need diluted, it needs to be held by someone who will allow and trust local commanders to do the job they are employed to do. House didn't allow that, he was one dimensional and everything was about the big picture. That, and his draconian management style, is where he failed.

 

What does require to be diluted is the power base which has been rooted in the west of the country. There are many, many, officers - in positions of influence and decision making - who are promoted well above their ability an IQ level. That said they weren't necessarily promoted for their ability, they were promoted as part of a clique to ensure Houses bus had people on it, or under it, whatever the case may be. A prime example of that is Wayne Mawson, everything he has touched has turned to rat shit. Not qualified to do the job he has held for two years, accused of cheating to get that qualification. The outcome of that investigation is due, it'l be interesting to see the result.

[siegementality]

No it hasn't. It's still the same cops doing the same job from the same stations as it was before. The badges on the uniforms say police Scotland rather than L&B other than that your day to day interaction with the police hasn't changed one bit. Your perception has though because you take what you read in the press at face value.

Again, what happened 18 months ago that made you draw the conclusion that it wasn't working? 

Tell me what isn't working about the organisation? genuine question.

No it's not. It's less cops - frontline cops due to the establishment of dozens of departments to fit the 'divisional model' - working from what stations are still operational stations (although the that isn't even the same as now they are referred to as offices!) doing a hugely different job, in a hugely different way. The issues they are dealing with aren't local issues, they are dealing with nationl priorities (violence, domestic abuse, etc). If it's the same cops, doing the same job, in the same way, try phoning, if you can get through, about anti social behaviour, or low level crime.

 

There far, far more different than the name on the badge, the majority of which is not for the better. The staff survey told you that.

[Deevers]

No it's not. It's less cops - frontline cops due to the establishment of dozens of departments to fit the 'divisional model' - working from what stations are still operational stations (although the that isn't even the same as now they are referred to as offices!) doing a hugely different job, in a hugely different way. The issues they are dealing with aren't local issues, they are dealing with nationl priorities (violence, domestic abuse, etc). If it's the same cops, doing the same job, in the same way, try phoning, if you can get through, about anti social behaviour, or low level crime.

There far, far more different than the name on the badge, the majority of which is not for the better. The staff survey told you that.

 

The sad fact is that those in charge will totally ignore most of what is in the Staff Survey and try and put a coat of gloss onto the minuscule things on it that are in anyway positive to try and make people believe that this was all their doing. Most of the people currently sitting in the command ranks were those that actually hated working the street and couldn't wait to get away from it.

That's the problem with this whole organisation - good policing starts at the bottom and works it's way up. Those in charge just now believe that they know it all and the edicts come from the top down. Only fools would ignore a survey of staff as damning as this one was - but bet your bottom dollar most of it will be ignored and that tells you all you need to know.

[EH11_2NL]

The local commanders job description requires them - as you said - to focus on the issues in their area. They are accountable to local scrutiny boards for exactly that. The role of Chief Constable doesn't need diluted, it needs to be held by someone who will allow and trust local commanders to do the job they are employed to do. House didn't allow that, he was one dimensional and everything was about the big picture. That, and his draconian management style, is where he failed.

 

What does require to be diluted is the power base which has been rooted in the west of the country. There are many, many, officers - in positions of influence and decision making - who are promoted well above their ability an IQ level. That said they weren't necessarily promoted for their ability, they were promoted as part of a clique to ensure Houses bus had people on it, or under it, whatever the case may be. A prime example of that is Wayne Mawson, everything he has touched has turned to rat shit. Not qualified to do the job he has held for two years, accused of cheating to get that qualification. The outcome of that investigation is due, it'l be interesting to see the result.

[JamboX2]

The local commanders job description requires them - as you said - to focus on the issues in their area. They are accountable to local scrutiny boards for exactly that. The role of Chief Constable doesn't need diluted, it needs to be held by someone who will allow and trust local commanders to do the job they are employed to do. House didn't allow that, he was one dimensional and everything was about the big picture. That, and his draconian management style, is where he failed.

 

What does require to be diluted is the power base which has been rooted in the west of the country. There are many, many, officers - in positions of influence and decision making - who are promoted well above their ability an IQ level. That said they weren't necessarily promoted for their ability, they were promoted as part of a clique to ensure Houses bus had people on it, or under it, whatever the case may be. A prime example of that is Wayne Mawson, everything he has touched has turned to rat shit. Not qualified to do the job he has held for two years, accused of cheating to get that qualification. The outcome of that investigation is due, it'l be interesting to see the result.

Totally agree.

[Yoda]

The local commanders job description requires them - as you said - to focus on the issues in their area. They are accountable to local scrutiny boards for exactly that. The role of Chief Constable doesn't need diluted, it needs to be held by someone who will allow and trust local commanders to do the job they are employed to do. House didn't allow that, he was one dimensional and everything was about the big picture. That, and his draconian management style, is where he failed.

 

What does require to be diluted is the power base which has been rooted in the west of the country. There are many, many, officers - in positions of influence and decision making - who are promoted well above their ability an IQ level. That said they weren't necessarily promoted for their ability, they were promoted as part of a clique to ensure Houses bus had people on it, or under it, whatever the case may be. A prime example of that is Wayne Mawson, everything he has touched has turned to rat shit. Not qualified to do the job he has held for two years, accused of cheating to get that qualification. The outcome of that investigation is due, it'l be interesting to see the result.

I have a number of mates in the Police, one of them an Inspector at Fettes and you have hit the nail on the head.

 

SNP in complete denial about the issues.  House should have been sacked last year.

[jake]

No it's not. It's less cops - frontline cops due to the establishment of dozens of departments to fit the 'divisional model' - working from what stations are still operational stations (although the that isn't even the same as now they are referred to as offices!) doing a hugely different job, in a hugely different way. The issues they are dealing with aren't local issues, they are dealing with nationl priorities (violence, domestic abuse, etc). If it's the same cops, doing the same job, in the same way, try phoning, if you can get through, about anti social behaviour, or low level crime.

 

There far, far more different than the name on the badge, the majority of which is not for the better. The staff survey told you that.

 

Is that not a good thing if they are dealing with domestic violence as a national strategy.

And what did this staff survey reveal?

[siegementality]

Is that not a good thing if they are dealing with domestic violence as a national strategy.

And what did this staff survey reveal?

Dealing with domestic abuse is of course a good thing, but imo it should not be to the detriment of other things. Police Scotland under House has concentrated on four or five national priorities, with a lot of local issues totally neglected. Those local issues deeply affect people's quality of life, and tPolice Scotland are not providing a service that meets the need. Everyone deserves the right to feel safe, not just some people. House has put too many eggs into a few baskets, hence the poor service being received in relation to everyday low level, high volume crime.

[kylelauren01]

Off topic but related

 

RIP PC David Phillips and condolences to his wife and young family.

[Maroon Sailor]

Off topic but related

RIP PC David Phillips and condolences to his wife and young family.

First Police Officer on Merseyside to be killed in the line of duty since 1981.

 

I mean murdered - mowed down and didn't stand a chance.

[Yoda]

A point i've made repeatedly on the FCR's. These should have been retained and incorporated into the new structure.

Staff stress - widen it out. Staff sickness and long term conditions. hundreds off at any given time. Was ever thus. 

The whole policing structure was changed - community teams (local policing), response teams, Roads policing etc etc. HB teams were disbanded and then reinstated but actual HB's didn't go through the roof, the number barely changed. The solved cases number changed downwards obviously. 

Again the saunas and drinking in the street came from CEC too. Not a dictat from House. He doesn't have the authority for that.

Civilian staff are losing their jobs down to budget cuts. Jobs are being backfilled by non operational officers ie guys no longer fit enough to walk the beat, the stress sufferers etc. But budget cuts are not unique to Police Scotland. Forces in England Wales and PSNI are all in the same boat.

The one thing you can lay at houses feet though is stop and search. Now that was a debacle.

Total pish.  I've got a mate who was in the Howdenhall HB (initiative) Team and the figures did shoot up. FACT. In fact, i'm sure the figures are on public record.

 

Why did they re-instate the HB teams, if the number of HBs barely changed?

 

Don't know where you're getting your info from.

[Maroon Sailor]

Not looking good for PC Alan Paton in the Sheku Bayoh case considering the reference members of his family have gave him.

 

They've made him out to be a violent person who attacked his own parents.

 

A few closer to home answers and enquires for Police Scotland to deal with if this turns out to be the case.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Not looking good for PC Alan Paton in the Sheku Bayoh case considering the reference members of his family have gave him.

They've made him out to be a violent person who attacked his own parents.

A few closer to home answers and enquires for Police Scotland to deal with if this turns out to be the case.

If what has been reported is true how is he still employed with them.

Beggars belief.

[Boris]

Scotland is a basket case on a lot of things and needs change before it can really consider independence.

 

Maybe it is independence that is needed so that a new constitution etc can be laid out from the off?

[Gorgiewave]

Maybe it is independence that is needed so that a new constitution etc can be laid out from the off?

 

Going from rotten boroughs to universal adult suffrage, the creation of the welfare state, universal free education, vastly improved standards of living, the abolition of capital punishment, the dissolution of the Empire: none of that required independence. Making a police force work properly is a small task compared to these achievements.

[TheMaganator]

Going from rotten boroughs to universal adult suffrage, the creation of the welfare state, universal free education, vastly improved standards of living, the abolition of capital punishment, the dissolution of the Empire: none of that required independence. Making a police force work properly is a small task compared to these achievements.

 

This 'we can only solve our problems with Independence' line is used by the SNP and their apologists to avoid tackling the real problems that we can solve today. The SNP and nationalism is utterly ruining Scotland. 

[CollyWolly]

Maybe it is independence that is needed so that a new constitution etc can be laid out from the off?

Policing and law enforcement in Scotland is an entirely devolved power already. I am pro Indy but I don't see what difference it would make as the same ruling party would be making the same decisions.

[jambos are go!]

We need Ministers who can effectively oversee the Police and other public services. You wont get that from this feeble SNP administration.IMO.

[Boris]

Going from rotten boroughs to universal adult suffrage, the creation of the welfare state, universal free education, vastly improved standards of living, the abolition of capital punishment, the dissolution of the Empire: none of that required independence. Making a police force work properly is a small task compared to these achievements.

 

I wasn't really referring to Police Scotland per se, rather responding to JX2's comment "Scotland is a basket case on a lot of things and needs change before it can really consider independence."

 

I thought by quoting that the context of my comment would have been apparent.

[Boris]

Policing and law enforcement in Scotland is an entirely devolved power already. I am pro Indy but I don't see what difference it would make as the same ruling party would be making the same decisions.

 

See above.

[Generic Username]

On the Bayoh case, former head of the Scottish Police Federation Les Gray said;

 

"I am quite frankly baffled at the media coverage of this thing."

 

What a cornette of a human being.

[Bert Le Clos]

No it hasn't. It's still the same cops doing the same job from the same stations as it was before. The badges on the uniforms say police Scotland rather than L&B other than that your day to day interaction with the police hasn't changed one bit. Your perception has though because you take what you read in the press at face value.

Again, what happened 18 months ago that made you draw the conclusion that it wasn't working? 

Tell me what isn't working about the organisation? genuine question.

 

Your interaction with the Police has absolutely changed.

 

There are less Police, going to the same number of jobs. Or perhaps not going for several days should be a more accurate way of putting it.

 

On top of having less Police to deal with the same number of incident, officers themselves are being asked to do far more in and around the background of the incidents they deal with. There is no room for discretion on the part of the officer.

 

Missing person enquiry teams have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers. On top of that every young person who goes missing from a young person's unit, even if they go missing every second day return safely, are classed as medium risk and require at least a single officer dedicated to finding them. Which is often an entire shift and beyond.

 

The officers who dealt with sudden deaths have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The team who used to serve citations has been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The number of dog handlers has been reduced, meaning tracking suspects or getting the required support at serious incidents rarely happens.

 

The number of roads policing sets have been reduced beyond belief, meaning uniformed response officers are required to go to road traffic incidents they never used to.

 

Under 18's are no longer classed as adults if they are on social work supervision. So they can't be processed, interviewed or charged at St Leonards without an appropriate adult. Parents often refuse to come, so it falls back on social work. Who regularly take hours to attend, meaning officers need to remain with the person until they do. More police tied up unable to answer calls.

 

On top of that the amount of paperwork required to completed when dealing with every incident has increased dramatically. Because there are less Police going to the same number of jobs, but taking longer and longer to deal with each job because of the paperwork, officers are getting hounded by the control room to break away to get to unanswered calls.

 

The standard of call taking has gone down because of the number of new staff, meaning officers regularly get half the information needed to know what they're going into. Or at times, none of the information needed.

 

The "diary car" appointment system is good in theory, but in reality it's abused by the control room who "diary" jobs that don't fit the criteria so they are off the screens and not classed as unactioned. Appointments are booked back to back for jobs that shouldn't be. Jobs that can never dealt with anywhere near properly to be passed on to an enquiry officer in a one hour appointment. Or worse, appointments are double booked by mistake so someone waits around all day then doesn't even get to see an officer.

 

Police can be going to 6 or 7 one hour appointments in a 9 hour shift. When do they eat? How do you deal with every job over-running even 5 minutes? When is the time to submit all the paperwork and update systems at the end of a shift? Especially given every bit of overtime is scrutinized and at times flat out rejected.

 

People want incidents dealt with and feel like something is being done. What they don't want is what happens with the current diary system where an officer goes, notes a statement, submits a crime report which then takes weeks to be processed (because of the huge backlog due to staff shortages) and is then allocated to an already over worked officer that already has 10+ crimes that can't be investigated because they don't get enquiry time because of the sheer volume of calls needing answered.

 

Tell me how the interaction hasn't changed between the public and the police when a pissed off member of the public has waited days to see an officer, has heard nothing but negative reviews about the Police in general and what they get is an officer who is over-stressed, over-worked and being hassled by the control room to hurry up or break away to go to another incident?

 

Does that sound like the quality of service the Police used to provide? Don't tell me the interaction hasn't changed.

[Yoda]

Your interaction with the Police has absolutely changed.

 

There are less Police, going to the same number of jobs. Or perhaps not going for several days should be a more accurate way of putting it.

 

On top of having less Police to deal with the same number of incident, officers themselves are being asked to do far more in and around the background of the incidents they deal with. There is no room for discretion on the part of the officer.

 

Missing person enquiry teams have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers. On top of that every young person who goes missing from a young person's unit, even if they go missing every second day return safely, are classed as medium risk and require at least a single officer dedicated to finding them. Which is often an entire shift and beyond.

 

The officers who dealt with sudden deaths have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The team who used to serve citations has been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The number of dog handlers has been reduced, meaning tracking suspects or getting the required support at serious incidents rarely happens.

 

The number of roads policing sets have been reduced beyond belief, meaning uniformed response officers are required to go to road traffic incidents they never used to.

 

Under 18's are no longer classed as adults if they are on social work supervision. So they can't be processed, interviewed or charged at St Leonards without an appropriate adult. Parents often refuse to come, so it falls back on social work. Who regularly take hours to attend, meaning officers need to remain with the person until they do. More police tied up unable to answer calls.

 

On top of that the amount of paperwork required to completed when dealing with every incident has increased dramatically. Because there are less Police going to the same number of jobs, but taking longer and longer to deal with each job because of the paperwork, officers are getting hounded by the control room to break away to get to unanswered calls.

 

The standard of call taking has gone down because of the number of new staff, meaning officers regularly get half the information needed to know what they're going into. Or at times, none of the information needed.

 

The "diary car" appointment system is good in theory, but in reality it's abused by the control room who "diary" jobs that don't fit the criteria so they are off the screens and not classed as unactioned. Appointments are booked back to back for jobs that shouldn't be. Jobs that can never dealt with anywhere near properly to be passed on to an enquiry officer in a one hour appointment. Or worse, appointments are double booked by mistake so someone waits around all day then doesn't even get to see an officer.

 

Police can be going to 6 or 7 one hour appointments in a 9 hour shift. When do they eat? How do you deal with every job over-running even 5 minutes? When is the time to submit all the paperwork and update systems at the end of a shift? Especially given every bit of overtime is scrutinized and at times flat out rejected.

 

People want incidents dealt with and feel like something is being done. What they don't want is what happens with the current diary system where an officer goes, notes a statement, submits a crime report which then takes weeks to be processed (because of the huge backlog due to staff shortages) and is then allocated to an already over worked officer that already has 10+ crimes that can't be investigated because they don't get enquiry time because of the sheer volume of calls needing answered.

 

Tell me how the interaction hasn't changed between the public and the police when a pissed off member of the public has waited days to see an officer, has heard nothing but negative reviews about the Police in general and what they get is an officer who is over-stressed, over-worked and being hassled by the control room to hurry up or break away to go to another incident?

 

Does that sound like the quality of service the Police used to provide? Don't tell me the interaction hasn't changed.

Excellent post.

[His name is]

Your interaction with the Police has absolutely changed.

 

There are less Police, going to the same number of jobs. Or perhaps not going for several days should be a more accurate way of putting it.

 

On top of having less Police to deal with the same number of incident, officers themselves are being asked to do far more in and around the background of the incidents they deal with. There is no room for discretion on the part of the officer.

 

Missing person enquiry teams have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers. On top of that every young person who goes missing from a young person's unit, even if they go missing every second day return safely, are classed as medium risk and require at least a single officer dedicated to finding them. Which is often an entire shift and beyond.

 

The officers who dealt with sudden deaths have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The team who used to serve citations has been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The number of dog handlers has been reduced, meaning tracking suspects or getting the required support at serious incidents rarely happens.

 

The number of roads policing sets have been reduced beyond belief, meaning uniformed response officers are required to go to road traffic incidents they never used to.

 

Under 18's are no longer classed as adults if they are on social work supervision. So they can't be processed, interviewed or charged at St Leonards without an appropriate adult. Parents often refuse to come, so it falls back on social work. Who regularly take hours to attend, meaning officers need to remain with the person until they do. More police tied up unable to answer calls.

 

On top of that the amount of paperwork required to completed when dealing with every incident has increased dramatically. Because there are less Police going to the same number of jobs, but taking longer and longer to deal with each job because of the paperwork, officers are getting hounded by the control room to break away to get to unanswered calls.

 

The standard of call taking has gone down because of the number of new staff, meaning officers regularly get half the information needed to know what they're going into. Or at times, none of the information needed.

 

The "diary car" appointment system is good in theory, but in reality it's abused by the control room who "diary" jobs that don't fit the criteria so they are off the screens and not classed as unactioned. Appointments are booked back to back for jobs that shouldn't be. Jobs that can never dealt with anywhere near properly to be passed on to an enquiry officer in a one hour appointment. Or worse, appointments are double booked by mistake so someone waits around all day then doesn't even get to see an officer.

 

Police can be going to 6 or 7 one hour appointments in a 9 hour shift. When do they eat? How do you deal with every job over-running even 5 minutes? When is the time to submit all the paperwork and update systems at the end of a shift? Especially given every bit of overtime is scrutinized and at times flat out rejected.

 

People want incidents dealt with and feel like something is being done. What they don't want is what happens with the current diary system where an officer goes, notes a statement, submits a crime report which then takes weeks to be processed (because of the huge backlog due to staff shortages) and is then allocated to an already over worked officer that already has 10+ crimes that can't be investigated because they don't get enquiry time because of the sheer volume of calls needing answered.

 

Tell me how the interaction hasn't changed between the public and the police when a pissed off member of the public has waited days to see an officer, has heard nothing but negative reviews about the Police in general and what they get is an officer who is over-stressed, over-worked and being hassled by the control room to hurry up or break away to go to another incident?

 

Does that sound like the quality of service the Police used to provide? Don't tell me the interaction hasn't changed.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

Things will get worse as more and more cuts are implemented.

[EH11_2NL]

Your interaction with the Police has absolutely changed.

 

There are less Police, going to the same number of jobs. Or perhaps not going for several days should be a more accurate way of putting it.

 

On top of having less Police to deal with the same number of incident, officers themselves are being asked to do far more in and around the background of the incidents they deal with. There is no room for discretion on the part of the officer.

 

Missing person enquiry teams have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers. On top of that every young person who goes missing from a young person's unit, even if they go missing every second day return safely, are classed as medium risk and require at least a single officer dedicated to finding them. Which is often an entire shift and beyond.

 

The officers who dealt with sudden deaths have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The team who used to serve citations has been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The number of dog handlers has been reduced, meaning tracking suspects or getting the required support at serious incidents rarely happens.

 

The number of roads policing sets have been reduced beyond belief, meaning uniformed response officers are required to go to road traffic incidents they never used to.

 

Under 18's are no longer classed as adults if they are on social work supervision. So they can't be processed, interviewed or charged at St Leonards without an appropriate adult. Parents often refuse to come, so it falls back on social work. Who regularly take hours to attend, meaning officers need to remain with the person until they do. More police tied up unable to answer calls.

 

On top of that the amount of paperwork required to completed when dealing with every incident has increased dramatically. Because there are less Police going to the same number of jobs, but taking longer and longer to deal with each job because of the paperwork, officers are getting hounded by the control room to break away to get to unanswered calls.

 

The standard of call taking has gone down because of the number of new staff, meaning officers regularly get half the information needed to know what they're going into. Or at times, none of the information needed.

 

The "diary car" appointment system is good in theory, but in reality it's abused by the control room who "diary" jobs that don't fit the criteria so they are off the screens and not classed as unactioned. Appointments are booked back to back for jobs that shouldn't be. Jobs that can never dealt with anywhere near properly to be passed on to an enquiry officer in a one hour appointment. Or worse, appointments are double booked by mistake so someone waits around all day then doesn't even get to see an officer.

 

Police can be going to 6 or 7 one hour appointments in a 9 hour shift. When do they eat? How do you deal with every job over-running even 5 minutes? When is the time to submit all the paperwork and update systems at the end of a shift? Especially given every bit of overtime is scrutinized and at times flat out rejected.

 

People want incidents dealt with and feel like something is being done. What they don't want is what happens with the current diary system where an officer goes, notes a statement, submits a crime report which then takes weeks to be processed (because of the huge backlog due to staff shortages) and is then allocated to an already over worked officer that already has 10+ crimes that can't be investigated because they don't get enquiry time because of the sheer volume of calls needing answered.

 

Tell me how the interaction hasn't changed between the public and the police when a pissed off member of the public has waited days to see an officer, has heard nothing but negative reviews about the Police in general and what they get is an officer who is over-stressed, over-worked and being hassled by the control room to hurry up or break away to go to another incident?

 

Does that sound like the quality of service the Police used to provide? Don't tell me the interaction hasn't changed.

 

I want to have your babies

[aussieh]

Your interaction with the Police has absolutely changed.

 

There are less Police, going to the same number of jobs. Or perhaps not going for several days should be a more accurate way of putting it.

 

On top of having less Police to deal with the same number of incident, officers themselves are being asked to do far more in and around the background of the incidents they deal with. There is no room for discretion on the part of the officer.

 

Missing person enquiry teams have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers. On top of that every young person who goes missing from a young person's unit, even if they go missing every second day return safely, are classed as medium risk and require at least a single officer dedicated to finding them. Which is often an entire shift and beyond.

 

The officers who dealt with sudden deaths have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The team who used to serve citations has been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The number of dog handlers has been reduced, meaning tracking suspects or getting the required support at serious incidents rarely happens.

 

The number of roads policing sets have been reduced beyond belief, meaning uniformed response officers are required to go to road traffic incidents they never used to.

 

Under 18's are no longer classed as adults if they are on social work supervision. So they can't be processed, interviewed or charged at St Leonards without an appropriate adult. Parents often refuse to come, so it falls back on social work. Who regularly take hours to attend, meaning officers need to remain with the person until they do. More police tied up unable to answer calls.

 

On top of that the amount of paperwork required to completed when dealing with every incident has increased dramatically. Because there are less Police going to the same number of jobs, but taking longer and longer to deal with each job because of the paperwork, officers are getting hounded by the control room to break away to get to unanswered calls.

 

The standard of call taking has gone down because of the number of new staff, meaning officers regularly get half the information needed to know what they're going into. Or at times, none of the information needed.

 

The "diary car" appointment system is good in theory, but in reality it's abused by the control room who "diary" jobs that don't fit the criteria so they are off the screens and not classed as unactioned. Appointments are booked back to back for jobs that shouldn't be. Jobs that can never dealt with anywhere near properly to be passed on to an enquiry officer in a one hour appointment. Or worse, appointments are double booked by mistake so someone waits around all day then doesn't even get to see an officer.

 

Police can be going to 6 or 7 one hour appointments in a 9 hour shift. When do they eat? How do you deal with every job over-running even 5 minutes? When is the time to submit all the paperwork and update systems at the end of a shift? Especially given every bit of overtime is scrutinized and at times flat out rejected.

 

People want incidents dealt with and feel like something is being done. What they don't want is what happens with the current diary system where an officer goes, notes a statement, submits a crime report which then takes weeks to be processed (because of the huge backlog due to staff shortages) and is then allocated to an already over worked officer that already has 10+ crimes that can't be investigated because they don't get enquiry time because of the sheer volume of calls needing answered.

 

Tell me how the interaction hasn't changed between the public and the police when a pissed off member of the public has waited days to see an officer, has heard nothing but negative reviews about the Police in general and what they get is an officer who is over-stressed, over-worked and being hassled by the control room to hurry up or break away to go to another incident?

 

Does that sound like the quality of service the Police used to provide? Don't tell me the interaction hasn't changed.

Awww, they need to work for their money now, poor little police officer.

[siegementality]

Awww, they need to work for their money now, poor little police officer.

The comment of someone who obviously knows two thirds of feck all about the police.

[CollyWolly]

Awww, they need to work for their money now, poor little police officer.

That's a bit of a shit ignorant response to a comprehensive post which was factual in just about every word. The only thing that might need to be added is the fact that a lot of what he states is happening was beginning to happen, in Edinburgh certainly, long before Police Scotland came about.

 

Yes, they are having to work their bollox off and Yes, they are pretty well paid for doing it, but the whole thrust of Kayleigh's post was the utter futility of what the average cop is doing on a daily basis and the almost total waste of resources and collapse of a service which, no matter what you think of the poor little police officers, is actually enormously important to each and every one of us in Scotland.

 

I suspect your not actually in Scotland given your name so perhaps an observer role on this excellent thread might suit you better and save you from looking like a tit.

[kylelauren01]

Your interaction with the Police has absolutely changed.

 

There are less Police, going to the same number of jobs. Or perhaps not going for several days should be a more accurate way of putting it.

 

On top of having less Police to deal with the same number of incident, officers themselves are being asked to do far more in and around the background of the incidents they deal with. There is no room for discretion on the part of the officer.

 

Missing person enquiry teams have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers. On top of that every young person who goes missing from a young person's unit, even if they go missing every second day return safely, are classed as medium risk and require at least a single officer dedicated to finding them. Which is often an entire shift and beyond.

 

The officers who dealt with sudden deaths have been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The team who used to serve citations has been disbanded; it falls back on uniformed officers.

 

The number of dog handlers has been reduced, meaning tracking suspects or getting the required support at serious incidents rarely happens.

 

The number of roads policing sets have been reduced beyond belief, meaning uniformed response officers are required to go to road traffic incidents they never used to.

 

Under 18's are no longer classed as adults if they are on social work supervision. So they can't be processed, interviewed or charged at St Leonards without an appropriate adult. Parents often refuse to come, so it falls back on social work. Who regularly take hours to attend, meaning officers need to remain with the person until they do. More police tied up unable to answer calls.

 

On top of that the amount of paperwork required to completed when dealing with every incident has increased dramatically. Because there are less Police going to the same number of jobs, but taking longer and longer to deal with each job because of the paperwork, officers are getting hounded by the control room to break away to get to unanswered calls.

 

The standard of call taking has gone down because of the number of new staff, meaning officers regularly get half the information needed to know what they're going into. Or at times, none of the information needed.

 

The "diary car" appointment system is good in theory, but in reality it's abused by the control room who "diary" jobs that don't fit the criteria so they are off the screens and not classed as unactioned. Appointments are booked back to back for jobs that shouldn't be. Jobs that can never dealt with anywhere near properly to be passed on to an enquiry officer in a one hour appointment. Or worse, appointments are double booked by mistake so someone waits around all day then doesn't even get to see an officer.

 

Police can be going to 6 or 7 one hour appointments in a 9 hour shift. When do they eat? How do you deal with every job over-running even 5 minutes? When is the time to submit all the paperwork and update systems at the end of a shift? Especially given every bit of overtime is scrutinized and at times flat out rejected.

 

People want incidents dealt with and feel like something is being done. What they don't want is what happens with the current diary system where an officer goes, notes a statement, submits a crime report which then takes weeks to be processed (because of the huge backlog due to staff shortages) and is then allocated to an already over worked officer that already has 10+ crimes that can't be investigated because they don't get enquiry time because of the sheer volume of calls needing answered.

 

Tell me how the interaction hasn't changed between the public and the police when a pissed off member of the public has waited days to see an officer, has heard nothing but negative reviews about the Police in general and what they get is an officer who is over-stressed, over-worked and being hassled by the control room to hurry up or break away to go to another incident?

 

Does that sound like the quality of service the Police used to provide? Don't tell me the interaction hasn't changed.

Add to that list the ever growing Complaints Against the Police, many for quality of service issues, which take up hours of investigation and man hours.

[aussieh]

That's a bit of a shit ignorant response to a comprehensive post which was factual in just about every word. The only thing that might need to be added is the fact that a lot of what he states is happening was beginning to happen, in Edinburgh certainly, long before Police Scotland came about.

 

Yes, they are having to work their bollox off and Yes, they are pretty well paid for doing it, but the whole thrust of Kayleigh's post was the utter futility of what the average cop is doing on a daily basis and the almost total waste of resources and collapse of a service which, no matter what you think of the poor little police officers, is actually enormously important to each and every one of us in Scotland.

 

I suspect your not actually in Scotland given your name so perhaps an observer role on this excellent thread might suit you better and save you from looking like a tit.

Colly, I dont give two fecks about Police in Scotland , Either post or pre Police Scotland.

 

No, im not in Australia.

[siegementality]

You've just described every public and private sector company/business/charity/bank/organisation etc. over the last 15 years.

 

Recession, lack of investment, cuts and many other factors have resulted in a reduction of services. It's not a phenomenon solely association with the Scottish police force.

 

The opposition parties favoured a singular police force, this seemed to be near inevitable.

Sorry mate but you are wrong. Regardless of the cuts and lack of investment the majority of Police Scotland's problems are self inflicted, caused by pish poor senior management who thought they could introduce 15 year old Met processes throughout Scotland. Police Scotland is a shambles, laughably however, it's actually been organised that way.

[CollyWolly]

Colly, I dont give two fecks about Police in Scotland , Either post or pre Police Scotland.

.

Yet you posted on the thread ?

[Yoda]

Colly, I dont give two fecks about Police in Scotland , Either post or pre Police Scotland.

 

No, im not in Australia.

 

I can imagine you standing on Lothian Road one night, with some big, ugly H1b5 fan about to punch your lights out and as the wee wee trickles down your leg, you saying your not going to be shouting for the Polis.  Think you might give a feck then.

 

We all need the Police, to say otherwise is plain stupid.

[CollyWolly]

I can imagine you standing on Lothian Road one night, with some big, ugly H1b5 fan about to punch your lights out and as the wee wee trickles down your leg, you saying your not going to be shouting for the Polis.  Think you might give a feck then.

 

We all need the Police, to say otherwise is plain stupid.

FACT: people who claim to hate the police avail themselves of their services, one way or another, significantly more than people who are neutral or supportive of the police.

 

Source-Metropolitan Police 'customer' survey circa 2005.

[EH11_2NL]

FACT: people who claim to hate the police avail themselves of their services, one way or another, significantly more than people who are neutral or supportive of the police.

 

Source-Metropolitan Police 'customer' survey circa 2005.

And the ambulance service. And the benefits system. They put the least in and take the most out. The Jeremy Kyle generation.

[pablo]

Crime rates in Edinburgh now amongst the highest in the country, while detection rates are the lowest. Feckin marvellous.

[Maroon Sailor]

Crime rates in Edinburgh now amongst the highest in the country, while detection rates are the lowest. Feckin marvellous.

I wonder if we were ever the highest under Lothian and Borders