Police Scotland

[scots civil war]

ive had a couple of enquiries with the fuzz looked into recently so ive not got the hump with them.
one thing that is pissing me off with that lot tho is their capacity to say,do,disclose nothing in the face of public scrutiny.

eg 2 punters lying in that car on the a9,the kircaldy geezer who died in custody and now their refusal to give to public information via a survey

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33635962

something smells badly with the running of that force imo

[Maroon Sailor]

Not getting any better for Police Scotland

 

Apparently they left a phone message on the M9 victim's phone 10 days after she died

 

House needs to get a grip of his Empire

[12XU]

Wow

Shame on Police Scotland

Needs reviewed and sorted quickly

I have no confidence in them at all

Apart from the top guy - what are the wages of all the regional Top Cops ( I am sure each region still has a big wage being scooped for little sense and little work )

[Maroon Sailor]

Wow

Shame on Police Scotland

Needs reviewed and sorted quickly

I have no confidence in them at all

Apart from the top guy - what are the wages of all the regional Top Cops ( I am sure each region still has a big wage being scooped for little sense and little work )

 

Chief Constable CC ?208,100

Deputy Chief Constable DCC ?169,600

Assistant Chief Constable ACC ?115,000

Chief Superintendent C/Supt. ?77,988-?82,272

Superintendent Supt ?62,921-?74,322

Chief Inspector C/Insp. ?52,308-?54,459

Inspector. Insp ?47,256-?51,258

Sergeant Sgt ?36,885-?41,451

Constable PC ?23,493-?36,885

Seem to be on a decent salary - especially the Executive Officers ..... Mr House must be laughing all the way to the bank ! Earns nearly 40 grand more than anyone else !

[Bert Le Clos]

For all I've defended the Police on here, there's no excuse for this latest **** up. And it's a massive **** up.

 

Regardless of how under-staffed, over-worked, stressed you are, there's no excuse for someone involved in the Police leaving a voicemail on her phone 10 days after she died.

 

And Stephen House can't be blamed at all for this one either.

[siegementality]

For all I've defended the Police on here, there's no excuse for this latest **** up. And it's a massive **** up.

 

Regardless of how under-staffed, over-worked, stressed you are, there's no excuse for someone involved in the Police leaving a voicemail on her phone 10 days after she died.

 

And Stephen House can't be blamed at all for this one either.

Is the Chief Constable not responsible for providing the strategy for communication, training, resourcing, policy?

 

A large majority of senior officers recently surveyed admitted to being depressed, stressed, bullied and manipulated into working longer hours.

 

It has been reported throughout the media that rank and file state they are bullied, there is a target culture, that there is a one size fits all policing model (Strathclydes) applied all over Scotland.

 

Police Scoland is routinely criticised by the media, politicians, civil liberties organisations and ordinary members of the public over the stop and search debacle (reported to the UN), routine arming of the police, lost data as someone "pressed the wrong button", snooping on journalists, manipulation of crime figures, the disastrous call centre reorganisation which lead to the M9 tragedy, death in custody in Fife, and much, much more.

 

So if the Chief Constable isn't responsible for this who is?

[Maroon Sailor]

It seems to me that House is a bit of a divisive character.

 

Fully appreciate he has a lot of responsibility and it's not a popularity contest but it appears he is not running a well drilled organisation.

[freddiemac]

While I admire the job the police do ,police scotland just now are a shambles.The blame for this is obvious an alleged anti - austerity SNP government paying a fortune in redundancy payments to reduce manpower while at the same time paying ?23m in vat due to merging scotland's police force.the same is happening in fire and rescue.To merge the transport police with police scotland is disgraceful and dangerous.At the end of the day it is all about SNP having total power at any cost to the public safety.

[CollyWolly]

For all I've defended the Police on here, there's no excuse for this latest **** up. And it's a massive **** up.

 

Regardless of how under-staffed, over-worked, stressed you are, there's no excuse for someone involved in the Police leaving a voicemail on her phone 10 days after she died.

 

And Stephen House can't be blamed at all for this one either.

When you know the ins and outs of that particular story its a hugely unfortunate but nevertheless damning set of circumstances that led to the voice mail being left. It could have happened any time and wouldn't have attracted a ripple of publicity. This is the last thing they need though and the sharks are circling round Stephen House now.

 

This incident apart, morale is at rock bottom and sickness through stress is at an all time high, and the vast majority is due to operational and cultural decisions he has made, aside from which he wasn't trusted from day 1 and is already earmarked for a bigger job when it becomes vacant.

 

He is untenable now and he'll be gone in the next 3-4 weeks IMO (if he lasts that long) I hope we get an Edinburgh guy taking over or at least a native Scot.

[IMac]

When you know the ins and outs of that particular story its a hugely unfortunate but nevertheless damning set of circumstances that led to the voice mail being left. It could have happened any time and wouldn't have attracted a ripple of publicity. This is the last thing they need though and the sharks are circling round Stephen House now.

 

This incident apart, morale is at rock bottom and sickness through stress is at an all time high, and the vast majority is due to operational and cultural decisions he has made, aside from which he wasn't trusted from day 1 and is already earmarked for a bigger job when it becomes vacant.

 

He is untenable now and he'll be gone in the next 3-4 weeks IMO (if he lasts that long) I hope we get an Edinburgh guy taking over or at least a native Scot.

foreigners out eh.

[CollyWolly]

While I admire the job the police do ,police scotland just now are a shambles.The blame for this is obvious an alleged anti - austerity SNP government paying a fortune in redundancy payments to reduce manpower while at the same time paying ?23m in vat due to merging scotland's police force.the same is happening in fire and rescue.To merge the transport police with police scotland is disgraceful and dangerous.At the end of the day it is all about SNP having total power at any cost to the public safety.

The whole purpose of the merge was to save on administration costs and the high cost of 8 senior teams when one would do. It was and is a good idea. However, House has come in with his eye on a bigger job and needed to show that he could cut the costs to the bone. So rather than just make administrative changes he has made sweeping operational changes, the results of which are huge savings in financial terms, not now but in 3-4 years time, but a huge drop off in service levels and too much pressure on the ground level.

 

For example, the contact centre just outside Edinburgh. Full of civilian support staff on decent wages and huge shift allowances, overseen by as few cops as they could get away with. Pre Police Scotland they were a highly skilled and a highly motivated and well rewarded workforce. Under Police Scotland the first thing they did was offer two phases of voluntary redundancy packages. Reasonably highly paid people (mostly in the ?27k to ?35k bracket) offered big severance packages bit their hands off. Cost a fortune. So they are left with a massive skills gap. They have to fill that gap short term by bringing in cops from the street. But they don't have all the skills and they have none of training and specific experience so it doesn't really help but it does take dozens of cops off the street. They are shipping them in from all over the country to staff the contact centres. Meantime they are recruiting to fill the posts previously made 'redundant' They are recruiting lower skilled staff on much less of a basic wage and hardly any shift allowances. As I said, in the next 3-4 years, once this replacement process is complete, the savings are huge and they get a cheaper workforce and they can put all those cops back on the street. That's the plan but its full of holes and its left morale on the floor and that's where it will stay until House goes and someone comes in and cleans his mess up.

[CollyWolly]

foreigners out eh.

Not at all. I just think the policing of Scotland is best overseen by a native Scots policeman.

[Koolkeith]

The whole purpose of the merge was to save on administration costs and the high cost of 8 senior teams when one would do. It was and is a good idea. However, House has come in with his eye on a bigger job and needed to show that he could cut the costs to the bone. So rather than just make administrative changes he has made sweeping operational changes, the results of which are huge savings in financial terms, not now but in 3-4 years time, but a huge drop off in service levels and too much pressure on the ground level.

 

For example, the contact centre just outside Edinburgh. Full of civilian support staff on decent wages and huge shift allowances, overseen by as few cops as they could get away with. Pre Police Scotland they were a highly skilled and a highly motivated and well rewarded workforce. Under Police Scotland the first thing they did was offer two phases of voluntary redundancy packages. Reasonably highly paid people (mostly in the ?27k to ?35k bracket) offered big severance packages bit their hands off. Cost a fortune. So they are left with a massive skills gap. They have to fill that gap short term by bringing in cops from the street. But they don't have all the skills and they have none of training and specific experience so it doesn't really help but it does take dozens of cops off the street. They are shipping them in from all over the country to staff the contact centres. Meantime they are recruiting to fill the posts previously made 'redundant' They are recruiting lower skilled staff on much less of a basic wage and hardly any shift allowances. As I said, in the next 3-4 years, once this replacement process is complete, the savings are huge and they get a cheaper workforce and they can put all those cops back on the street. That's the plan but its full of holes and its left morale on the floor and that's where it will stay until House goes and someone comes in and cleans his mess up.

 

Interesting insight.  Seen this kind of thing first hand in Financial Services.  Guy comes in, shreds the workforce. Does his job of cutting the budget as asked. No one likes the guy, he doesn't care.. Usually leaves to go and do a similar job elsewhere, leaving a mess behind. All the experienced well paid staff take redundancy, leaving massive skill and knowledge gaps. 

[Boris]

Libya. Not Lybia.

 

You so nearly made a ^^^^ of that.

[Bert Le Clos]

Is the Chief Constable not responsible for providing the strategy for communication, training, resourcing, policy?

 

A large majority of senior officers recently surveyed admitted to being depressed, stressed, bullied and manipulated into working longer hours.

 

It has been reported throughout the media that rank and file state they are bullied, there is a target culture, that there is a one size fits all policing model (Strathclydes) applied all over Scotland.

 

Police Scoland is routinely criticised by the media, politicians, civil liberties organisations and ordinary members of the public over the stop and search debacle (reported to the UN), routine arming of the police, lost data as someone "pressed the wrong button", snooping on journalists, manipulation of crime figures, the disastrous call centre reorganisation which lead to the M9 tragedy, death in custody in Fife, and much, much more.

 

So if the Chief Constable isn't responsible for this who is?

Absolutely agree with all of the above however one man cannot be held accountable for the every single action of every person working under their command.

 

If a cop punches a someone in the face tonight, you can't just shout "House out!" and think that covers it. There has to be a certain amount of personal responsibility at times.

 

That said, this is a moot point because as collywolly says this hasn't happened as reported and is a hugely unfortunate coincedence rather than a lack of professionalism.

[smallfaces]

Absolutely agree with all of the above however one man cannot be held accountable.

Ultimately, one man can be and is held responsible (much like football managers) Or else, why is constable House being paid significant amounts of public money.

[JamboX2]

I think the issue with House, in my eyes, is he's not coming across as responsive and open.

 

From the mess over armed police, pushing a one size fits all approach across Scotland (that being the Strathclyde way) and the emerging issues around morale and staffing it all looks like a poorly lead force.

 

Personally speaking, the force is top heavy. House has a lot of power in his role and he appears more as a Minister for Police than a head of a force. Maybe, the force needs to share power amongst it's other regional commanders and perhaps rather than be reviewed by a quango they report directly to a Policing Committee at Holyrood (after all it's a national force now).

 

It seems the force is let down by its leadership structure and leader, but that for that to change the government need to review the way the force actually operates!

[Seymour M Hersh]

Absolutely agree with all of the above however one man cannot be held accountable for the every single action of every person working under their command.

 

 

This guy didn't agree.

 

[12XU]

Looks like they have plenty of time and resources - investigating 3 people dressed in fancy dress as Gollywogs

[pablo]

I agree with the Conservatives in that the transfer of power from the British Transport Police to Police Scotland should be put on hold for the time being.

 

With it being part of Smith, I can't imagine the Nationalist government letting it go irrespective of the potential impact it could have.

[Alex]

For anyone with opinions on the call handling process, here is your chance for an input into the HMICS review

 

http://www.hmics.org/publications/hmics-review-call-handling-scotland-questionnaire 

[CollyWolly]

Looks like they have plenty of time and resources - investigating 3 people dressed in fancy dress as Gollywogs

They are not investigating that. Advice given to the caller who reported it.

[Debut 4]

The minute you strip power away from people who used to have it, they are naturally going to give less of a feck.

 

Buck passing starts when sheight hits the fan, "its not me, not my fault, im not on charge now".....Regional forces made those areas accountable for their own actions, its not hard.

 

But as ever its always about feckin money. Police Scotland might run for a bit yet but it`ll eventually be looked upon as an experiment gone wrong and they `ll return eventually to the way it was or similar.

[CollyWolly]

The minute you strip power away from people who used to have it, they are naturally going to give less of a feck.

 

Buck passing starts when sheight hits the fan, "its not me, not my fault, im not on charge now".....Regional forces made those areas accountable for their own actions, its not hard.

 

But as ever its always about feckin money. Police Scotland might run for a bit yet but it`ll eventually be looked upon as an experiment gone wrong and they `ll return eventually to the way it was or similar.

Cant see it being reversed. Amended to make it more regionally appropriate and accountable maybe but Police Scotland is here to stay. It'll be fine once they 1. Get a respected and competent leader on board.(the current one has lost the dressing room) 2. Restore some of the austerity cuts they publicly oppose anyway. 3. Replace the skill sets and experience lost through lucrative voluntary redundancy packages

[Debut 4]

Cant see it being reversed. Amended to make it more regionally appropriate and accountable maybe but Police Scotland is here to stay. It'll be fine once they 1. Get a respected and competent leader on board.(the current one has lost the dressing room) 2. Restore some of the austerity cuts they publicly oppose anyway. 3. Replace the skill sets and experience lost through lucrative voluntary redundancy packages

exactly. I thought afterwards that what may happen is what you say, tweaked and amended to look like it's still Police Scotland but powers will be handed back regionally.

 

They'll save millions on having to change all the insignia on the hi vis vests back to suit the different areas.

[Bert Le Clos]

I expect Police Scotland will remain but I wouldn't be surprised if it was then separated into three different sub-forces; East, West and North.

 

It would be too much of an embarrassment for the SNP to revert back to pre-Police Scotland.

 

A commissioner-type post with oversight of the whole of Police Scotland with three Chief Constables covering each command area would still allow for large savings to be made while still allowing each area to be policed by policies which reflect it's various demographics.

 

There have already been discussions about combining the new A & B divisions into one division (Aberdeen City & Aberdeenshire and Moray). From a cost and staffing point of view, pre-Police Scotland that area probably didn't need a Chief Constable, various Deputy and Assistant CC's and several Chief Supers.

 

However at the same time, expecting an area that size that was previously run by a Chief Constable, various Deputy and Assistant CC's and several Chief Supers to now be run by one Chief Super is absolutely bonkers.

[CollyWolly]

Force North

 

The laws relating to incest or carnal knowledge of the lower animals are repealed. You are allowed to drive in whatever state you fancy. You must set fire to fields at the wrong time of year. Pubs are open until you wish to leave. We don't recognise drug laws here either in fact we positively encourage it.

 

Force East

 

You can drink in the street. Break into people's homes and cars, Ride stolen motorbikes. You can do whatever you like during the festival as long as you are not native scots and we'll find you within 2 hours if you get pished and drive your car off the motorway.

 

Force West

 

You can't breathe here unless you support Rangers or Celtic, in which case none of the laws of the land apply to you. You can beat your wife with impunity. You can run a criminal organisation as long as you pay the fees and you must not speak to a policeman unless he asked you a question

[deesidejambo]

Force North

 

The laws relating to incest or carnal knowledge of the lower animals are repealed. You are allowed to drive in whatever state you fancy. You must set fire to fields at the wrong time of year. Pubs are open until you wish to leave. We don't recognise drug laws here either in fact we positively encourage it.

 

Force East

 

You can drink in the street. Break into people's homes and cars, Ride stolen motorbikes. You can do whatever you like during the festival as long as you are not native scots and we'll find you within 2 hours if you get pished and drive your car off the motorway.

 

Force West

 

You can't breathe here unless you support Rangers or Celtic, in which case none of the laws of the land apply to you. You can beat your wife with impunity. You can run a criminal organisation as long as you pay the fees and you must not speak to a policeman unless he asked you a question

A correction for Force North........

 

You are allowed every weekend to drive at high speeds on country roads, endangering as many people as you like, then if you are stopped, you are warned.   Then if you do it again, you are warned again.    On no account will you be charged with, speeding, reckless, or careless driving.   After the latest round of deaths on the roads, Force North will then put an article in the Aberdeen P&J politely asking people not to speed, because if they do, they will be warned.     I have little respect for the Police up here.  Sorry.

[CollyWolly]

A correction for Force North........

 

You are allowed every weekend to drive at high speeds on country roads, endangering as many people as you like, then if you are stopped, you are warned.   Then if you do it again, you are warned again.    On no account will you be charged with, speeding, reckless, or careless driving.   After the latest round of deaths on the roads, Force North will then put an article in the Aberdeen P&J politely asking people not to speed, because if they do, they will be warned.     I have little respect for the Police up here.  Sorry.

They have always had a reputation for leniency in regard to Road traffic Offences, particularly drink driving in rural areas. Never understood it really apart from the fact that they might be tolerating it to make sure the local culture and economy and social scene didn't get impacted too much. Pubs you can walk to are in short supply in rural areas.

[IronJambo]

They have always had a reputation for leniency in regard to Road traffic Offences, particularly drink driving in rural areas. Never understood it really apart from the fact that they might be tolerating it to make sure the local culture and economy and social scene didn't get impacted too much. Pubs you can walk to are in short supply in rural areas.

It was the same in the borders. Or at least it was in the biggar area in the late 90's and early noughties. Don't know if it still is.

[Phage]

Telt yees lazy typical govt workers

 

 

Stress pah!!!!

 

 

Wonder what the sick days of traffic wardens are who i bet take far more abuse.

 

Bet you a pound to the penny there would be not nearly as much if like the rest of us they didnt get full pay etc.

 

 

Im not anti police.

 

But if you join a service that deals with the dribs and the drabs and you are not aware then do not join.

 

Whats the sick days taken by armed forces theyre left to rot

 

Even if you are a corrupt officer you get a full pension.

 

Oh and another thing if you decide not to cough up for your kids they are the hardest employer to deal with by the csa.

Fact.

Time the fat lazy unfit cops who abuse sick pay were emptied.

 

They shame the guys who work hard for the community and join for all the right reasons.

 

Have you ever, literally, picked pieces of a human being off the road or a railway line? Have you then had to deal with a distraught family looking for answers within hours afterwards? And had to deal with that sort of situation day in day out..... ?

 

If the answer is "No", it's a bit shit to be down playing workplace stress. Police is the most stressful job around and no matter how strong or how passive you are, shit will eventually rock you to the core. Id take some angry car driver who's got a 30 quid ticket getting up in my grill an day over the shit the police deal with. What we're not talking about is some M&S employee going off sick because customers are complaining about their push up bra, or some shit.

 

Reading your post.... your either looking for a reaction or your just a total ramjet, bit of both probably. 

 

Probably the sort of person that knows to say you've got an alcohol dependency when your in the jail.... free Vali'sss!!!!! Badboy (Begbie) yeah!!! Free shit, eating breakfast tomorrow, Scum, Filth, Blah blah....

 

Anyway your probably ex-forces? If so... respect, The Police isn't all driving about in a patrol car noising but Hibs fans. And I guess the Forces wouldn't be all about Dos'ing about Camp Bastian or whatever. If you have any sort of empathy or sensitivity for other human beings, the Police will push you to your limits. Whilst yes, some are on full sick pay (not uncommon in other professions to be perfectly honest) their are a lot of officers struggling day to day, counselling, crying themselves to sleep etc etc. It's not all sunshine and roses, unless your a heartless *******.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Have you ever, literally, picked pieces of a human being off the road or a railway line? Have you then had to deal with a distraught family looking for answers within hours afterwards? And had to deal with that sort of situation day in day out..... ?

 

If the answer is "No", it's a bit shit to be down playing workplace stress. Police is the most stressful job around and no matter how strong or how passive you are, shit will eventually rock you to the core. Id take some angry car driver who's got a 30 quid ticket getting up in my grill an day over the shit the police deal with. What we're not talking about is some M&S employee going off sick because customers are complaining about their push up bra, or some shit.

 

Reading your post.... your either looking for a reaction or your just a total ramjet, bit of both probably. 

 

Probably the sort of person that knows to say you've got an alcohol dependency when your in the jail.... free Vali'sss!!!!! Badboy (Begbie) yeah!!! Free shit, eating breakfast tomorrow, Scum, Filth, Blah blah....

 

Anyway your probably ex-forces? If so... respect, The Police isn't all driving about in a patrol car noising but Hibs fans. And I guess the Forces wouldn't be all about Dos'ing about Camp Bastian or whatever. If you have any sort of empathy or sensitivity for other human beings, the Police will push you to your limits. Whilst yes, some are on full sick pay (not uncommon in other professions to be perfectly honest) their are a lot of officers struggling day to day, counselling, crying themselves to sleep etc etc. It's not all sunshine and roses, unless your a heartless *******.

In your opinion police is the most stressful job.

In my opinion it isn't.

[Bert Le Clos]

In your opinion police is the most stressful job.

In my opinion it isn't.

 

To be fair, latching onto that one tiny part of his entire post is a bit shite.

 

The main point of his post wasn't about whether Policing was more stressful than nursing, the armed forces, recruitment or a till worker in B&M Bargains.

 

It was making the point that jake probably doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about. Something I expect 99% of people on here would agree with.

[scots civil war]

kevin mckenna jumping on the train now n all,grauniad piece today

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/02/policing-in-scotland-shambles

[The Real Maroonblood]

To be fair, latching onto that one tiny part of his entire post is a bit shite.

 

The main point of his post wasn't about whether Policing was more stressful than nursing, the armed forces, recruitment or a till worker in B&M Bargains.

 

It was making the point that jake probably doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about. Something I expect 99% of people on here would agree with.

No its not shite.

According to the post he stated that as a fact.

I was merely pointing out that it is only his opinion.

[jake]

Have you ever, literally, picked pieces of a human being off the road or a railway line? Have you then had to deal with a distraught family looking for answers within hours afterwards? And had to deal with that sort of situation day in day out..... ?

 

If the answer is "No", it's a bit shit to be down playing workplace stress. Police is the most stressful job around and no matter how strong or how passive you are, shit will eventually rock you to the core. Id take some angry car driver who's got a 30 quid ticket getting up in my grill an day over the shit the police deal with. What we're not talking about is some M&S employee going off sick because customers are complaining about their push up bra, or some shit.

 

Reading your post.... your either looking for a reaction or your just a total ramjet, bit of both probably.

 

Probably the sort of person that knows to say you've got an alcohol dependency when your in the jail.... free Vali'sss!!!!! Badboy (Begbie) yeah!!! Free shit, eating breakfast tomorrow, Scum, Filth, Blah blah....

 

Anyway your probably ex-forces? If so... respect, The Police isn't all driving about in a patrol car noising but Hibs fans. And I guess the Forces wouldn't be all about Dos'ing about Camp Bastian or whatever. If you have any sort of empathy or sensitivity for other human beings, the Police will push you to your limits. Whilst yes, some are on full sick pay (not uncommon in other professions to be perfectly honest) their are a lot of officers struggling day to day, counselling, crying themselves to sleep etc etc. It's not all sunshine and roses, unless your a heartless *******.

 

Covered all the bases there i see with the full on character assassination.

 

Pmsl

[deesidejambo]

To be fair, latching onto that one tiny part of his entire post is a bit shite.

 

The main point of his post wasn't about whether Policing was more stressful than nursing, the armed forces, recruitment or a till worker in B&M Bargains.

 

It was making the point that jake probably doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about. Something I expect 99% of people on here would agree with.

Jake believes the Apollo Moon Landings were faked.  Thats the intellectual level you are at.

[Haken]

Not at all. I just think the policing of Scotland is best overseen by a native Scots policeman.

Thought House was born in Glasgow.  Could well be wrong.

 

EDIT - born and lived in Glasgow until aged 11, according to Wiki.

[dc-jambo]

kevin mckenna jumping on the train now n all,grauniad piece today

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/02/policing-in-scotland-shambles

 

 v good piece, thx for sharing

[His name is]

Out of interest, do we know what caused the m9 crash?

 

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

[jake]

Jake believes the Apollo Moon Landings were faked. Thats the intellectual level you are at.

 

Oooo so cutting from a wealth of knowledge like yourself.

Ouch

[CollyWolly]

Out of interest, do we know what caused the m9 crash?

 

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh now there is a VERY GOOD question. Doesn't seem to have been asked by the press, or they know and have been asked not to say, or they know and it spoils the police bashing a bit if it was the drivers fault so they haven't covered it.

[CollyWolly]

kevin mckenna jumping on the train now n all,grauniad piece today

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/02/policing-in-scotland-shambles

Not exactly in depth is it. Affirms that Policing in Scotland is a shambles, which it is incidentally but the only evidence produced for that in the article is one missed call by a 'hapless junior employee'. Nothing about serious undermanning, ludicrous allocation of resources to cover for expensive redundancies, sickness levels through the roof and morale at rock bottom.

[Erik]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh now there is a VERY GOOD question. Doesn't seem to have been asked by the press, or they know and have been asked not to say, or they know and it spoils the police bashing a bit if it was the drivers fault so they haven't covered it.

 

I'm not entirely sure why that's in any way relevant to the debate.

 

How or why the crash happened is neither here nor there - the debate is about what happened in the aftermath of the crash.

 

If may well have been the drivers fault - does that make a 3 day response time ok? Does that justify 'forgetting' about the report? Does that make leaving a dying woman trapped in a car for 3 days acceptable?

[jake]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh now there is a VERY GOOD question. Doesn't seem to have been asked by the press, or they know and have been asked not to say, or they know and it spoils the police bashing a bit if it was the drivers fault so they haven't covered it.

 

Any criticism is seen as police bashing.

Any legitimate questions seen as anti police.

Perhaps the reason is not a conspiracy as you laughably suggest and a conspiracy to allow the police bashing.

Maybe they dont know as it took them 3 days to get there.

[CollyWolly]

I'm not entirely sure why that's in any way relevant to the debate.

 

How or why the crash happened is neither here nor there - the debate is about what happened in the aftermath of the crash.

 

If may well have been the drivers fault - does that make a 3 day response time ok? Does that justify 'forgetting' about the report? Does that make leaving a dying woman trapped in a car for 3 days acceptable?

I didn't say it was acceptable. I wasn't defending them. But there are parts of this story that haven't been revealed or debated. The driver, it has been acknowledged by everything I have seen, read and am privately aware of, could not have survived even if the response had been immediate. There is debate as to whether the girl would have survived.

 

The drivers cause of death is and was entirely due his own actions. The girls cause of death is and was, at least partly and probably majorly, due to the actions of the driver.

 

Now you may not like those facts and it certainly takes the shine off a good story of police incompetence but those are the facts.

 

In no way does it defend or excuse the police not attending. That cannot be excused but you need to keep perspective.

[CollyWolly]

Any criticism is seen as police bashing.

Any legitimate questions seen as anti police.

Perhaps the reason is not a conspiracy as you laughably suggest and a conspiracy to allow the police bashing.

Maybe they dont know as it took them 3 days to get there.

It is a 'police bashing' exercise though.In this case some aspects of it are fully deserved and I am happy to join in and  'bash' those who are ultimately responsible for it. In this case its Stephen House who is ultimately responsible and he should and must resign.

[doctor jambo]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh now there is a VERY GOOD question. Doesn't seem to have been asked by the press, or they know and have been asked not to say, or they know and it spoils the police bashing a bit if it was the drivers fault so they haven't covered it.

Regardless of the cause of the crash ( even if they were stoned and drunk) that does in NO WAY excuse them being left to die on a car for three days.

Its not police bashing - in this instance there is, rightly, outrage at what happened after the crash- and no matter what type of person you are or what you have done you deserve people who are paid to help you to do so , and treat you equally with all others

It was not the drivers fault the police did not respond- and that is the end of the matter

[CollyWolly]

Regardless of the cause of the crash ( even if they were stoned and drunk) that does in NO WAY excuse them being left to die on a car for three days.

Its not police bashing - in this instance there is, rightly, outrage at what happened after the crash- and no matter what type of person you are or what you have done you deserve people who are paid to help you to do so , and treat you equally with all others

It was not the drivers fault the police did not respond- and that is the end of the matter

Couldn't agree more and have said as much in several posts on here. However, the shocking lack of a police response did not cause the death of the driver, nor, in all probability did it prevent the survival of the girl.

[Sharpie]

Regardless of the cause of the crash ( even if they were stoned and drunk) that does in NO WAY excuse them being left to die on a car for three days.

Its not police bashing - in this instance there is, rightly, outrage at what happened after the crash- and no matter what type of person you are or what you have done you deserve people who are paid to help you to do so , and treat you equally with all others

It was not the drivers fault the police did not respond- and that is the end of the matter

 

So true, unfortunately it does not happen as infrequently as we believe, and more importantly the culprits are often organisations where management are regularly under criticism.  Here in B.C. non police related, but officialdom involved.  Social serv ices were engaged with a troubled family, the mother requested full custody of her children citing abuse by the father, apparently the social workers perceived the woman as being mentally unstable and the father was granted full custody.  It has now transpired that the father was sexually abusing the kids and the mother was correct all the time.  Where I see the relationship with the relevant subject here police problems, they both involve bureaucratic problems and weak and poor management from the very top down.