Police Scotland

[Maroon Sailor]

Does anyone think this has been a success ?

 

Think I prefer the 8 police forces we had before the merger.

[JyTees]

Yes. House and Sturgeon. Don't think you'll find many more though.

[Sten Guns]

My life is no different.

 

To claim I want 8 forces over 1 would be moaning for the sake of it.

[Boris]

Undecided. I suspect that the theory is ok, but those in charge are making an arse of it. Doesn't make it a bad idea, necessarily.

[Ibrahim Tall]

My life is no different.

To claim I want 8 forces over 1 would be moaning for the sake of it.

 

This.

 

Can honestly say it's had no impact on my life one way or the other.

[Nixie]

The whole thing is a mess. Another SNP success story.

[Chester™]

Undecided. I suspect that the theory is ok, but those in charge are making an arse of it. Doesn't make it a bad idea, necessarily.

 

From the Police officers I've spoken to, that seems to be general feeling. When you have an absolute prick in charge, who doesnt listen to anyone but himself, its only going to be one outcome, regardless of how many regions, regardless of what job it is.

[Maroon Sailor]

This.

Can honestly say it's had no impact on my life one way or the other.

Makes you wonder why the merger in the first place

[Boris]

From the Police officers I've spoken to, that seems to be general feeling. When you have an absolute prick in charge, who doesnt listen to anyone but himself, its only going to be one outcome, regardless of how many regions, regardless of what job it is.

Funnily enough, the cops I know say the same thing.

[pablo]

Symptomatic of wider issues with the direction Scotland is taking in my opinion.

[Boris]

Symptomatic of wider issues with the direction Scotland is taking in my opinion.

Austerity from Wesminster biting?

[Australis]

I remember if something went wrong say in Lothan and Borders police force, they would call in Tayside or Strathclde to investigate it as an independant force.

Who does that now for Police Scotland.

 

Wonder if I protested outside the house of our head of police, if it would take 3 days for an officer to pop along.

Family's of that couple in the car are being treated very badly.

 

Could end up like a banana republic where the politicians back the police, who in turn back whoever is in power.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

i'm not all that knowledgeable about the whole thing but what was the motivation in the 1st place? Was it more consistency across the country and therefore leading to a better service or was it purely financial or political?

[pablo]

Austerity from Wesminster biting?

Well I was going to suggest that it's no surprise that a Nationalist government fancied a McStasi and that the Glasgowization of the Country was also inevitable under this regime.

 

But I'm guessing you probably knew that ?

[Sten Guns]

i'm not all that knowledgeable about the whole thing but what was the motivation in the 1st place? Was it more consistency across the country and therefore leading to a better service or was it purely financial or political?

Westminster budget cuts made it inevitable.

 

The merger was a massive money saver.

[The Mighty Thor]

The idea is sound. The implementation is a cluster feck of biblical proportions.

A public service being run like a business buy a megalomaniac.

[Mikey1874]

From the Police officers I've spoken to, that seems to be general feeling. When you have an absolute prick in charge, who doesnt listen to anyone but himself, its only going to be one outcome, regardless of how many regions, regardless of what job it is.

might just be - in my experience esp in organisations with hierarchy or command structure the person in charge has a massive impact, there personality as well as what they want to do

 

wider issues with Police and their relationship with the public and others have been probably made worse by centralisation and some incompetence

 

This is very tragic

 

one could say it should be seen in isolation and "just" a mistake

 

but it can be a tipping point

 

House should resign

[Mikey1874]

Symptomatic of wider issues with the direction Scotland is taking in my opinion.

no matter good intentions its been centralisation, centralisation, centralisation

 

and incompetence

[aussieh]

Yes. House and Sturgeon. Don't think you'll find many more though.

Unions never work.

[Franco Fascione]

It hasn't been a success.  Sturgeon and the two justice ministers who have presided over this cluster muck need to wake up.  They are trying to hide behind their statistics as politicians normally do, which makes it look like a success. When in fact police officers and the general public KNOW it's not working, especially with House in charge.  The public are not getting the service they deserve and are entitled to. As long as House and the politicians in charge keep to the party line and deny their failings then the service won't move forward and the police service in Scotland will most definitely be in crisis.  

 

In my opinion it would have been best to go from 8 police forces to 3 or 4.  Policing issues in Glasgow are very different than Edinburgh, which in turn is very different to that in the remote areas of the Highlands and Islands.  This one size fits all that House has been hired to implement isn't working just now, especially when it is driven by a man who will not listen and wants everyone to 'conform to his way of doing things'.  Police Scotland could very well work if someone with an open mind, who listens to his senior staff and is flexible with the way things are done in different areas of Scotland, comes in.

[The Mighty Thor]

It hasn't been a success.  Sturgeon and the two justice ministers who have presided over this cluster muck need to wake up.  They are trying to hide behind their statistics as politicians normally do, which makes it look like a success. When in fact police officers and the general public KNOW it's not working, especially with House in charge.  The public are not getting the service they deserve and are entitled to. As long as House and the politicians in charge keep to the party line and deny their failings then the service won't move forward and the police service in Scotland will most definitely be in crisis.  

 

In my opinion it would have been best to go from 8 police forces to 3 or 4.  Policing issues in Glasgow are very different than Edinburgh, which in turn is very different to that in the remote areas of the Highlands and Islands.  This one size fits all that House has been hired to implement isn't working just now, especially when it is driven by a man who will not listen and wants everyone to 'conform to his way of doing things'.  Police Scotland could very well work if someone with an open mind, who listens to his senior staff and is flexible with the way things are done in different areas of Scotland, comes in.

 

I agree to a point on what you say re force sizes. Three forces would have been sensible. An enlarged Strathclyde area, an enlarged L&B and a northern force of Tayside and Grampian.

 

Too late now though and no chance of any changes either as the obergruppenfuhrer feels he's providing the necessary leadership. My way or the highway!

[The Real Maroonblood]

It hasn't been a success.  Sturgeon and the two justice ministers who have presided over this cluster muck need to wake up.  They are trying to hide behind their statistics as politicians normally do, which makes it look like a success. When in fact police officers and the general public KNOW it's not working, especially with House in charge.  The public are not getting the service they deserve and are entitled to. As long as House and the politicians in charge keep to the party line and deny their failings then the service won't move forward and the police service in Scotland will most definitely be in crisis.  

 

In my opinion it would have been best to go from 8 police forces to 3 or 4.  Policing issues in Glasgow are very different than Edinburgh, which in turn is very different to that in the remote areas of the Highlands and Islands.  This one size fits all that House has been hired to implement isn't working just now, especially when it is driven by a man who will not listen and wants everyone to 'conform to his way of doing things'.  Police Scotland could very well work if someone with an open mind, who listens to his senior staff and is flexible with the way things are done in different areas of Scotland, comes in.

Top post, particularly the second paragraph.

Former Strathclydes police seem to be calling the shots.

No surprise there.

[Norm]

I'm pretty much in the seemed a good idea in theory but they've made an utter James of it camp.

 

I don't think Strathclyde Police realised that the rest of the country doesn't have the same problems as them and their method of policing isn't suitable for the rest of Scotland.

[Jamhammer]

It weren't broke and they haven't fixed it. IMO. Money saving exercise and, on that basis it could be judged a success. You can't run a public service as a business because the demands placed on it are unique. 

[siegementality]

This.

 

Can honestly say it's had no impact on my life one way or the other.

Actually it may well have.

 

Every time a house is screwed or a car or motorbike stolen in your post code area your insurance premium goes up.

 

Given the amount of housebreakings and auto crime in and around Edinburgh I'd say were are all paying in one way or another.

[Homme]

I'm worried about Police Scotland taking over the BTP in Scotland. I think BTP do a great job.

 

As far as normal policing goes I've not noticed a difference.

[Cade]

Had to be done to save money. Trouble is that the Weegie Polis was taken as the model and the whole of Scotland is now policed like the weege.

[aussieh]

Had to be done to save money. Trouble is that the Weegie Polis was taken as the model and the whole of Scotland is now policed like the weege.

Does Edinburgh have no crime?

[Hasselhoff]

Does Edinburgh have no crime?

Your logic is woeful - guess that is why you are so pro-indy

[aussieh]

Your logic is woeful - guess that is why you are so pro-indy

Just a question. Gun crime in Edinburgh at the weekend.

[drewbusbomb]

Funnily enough, the cops I know say the same thing.

Ditto - no confidence from serving officers

[The Real Maroonblood]

Had to be done to save money. Trouble is that the Weegie Polis was taken as the model and the whole of Scotland is now policed like the weege.

Spot on.

[Sharpie]

I have never worked in an amalgated force, but do understand to some extent the concept.  In theory, and I stress in theory, budgeting becomes simpler, all paid the same, no local disimilarities.  Jurisdiction becomes a thing of the past, all have overall authority  in all areas policed.  Distribution of manpower should become simpler, more men scheduled to high crime areas, less to inactive zones.  Policy is comprehensive, and again affects all equally. Equipment becomes standardised as do vehicles etc. It  should be simpler to have serious crime investigators promptly delegated to serious crimes rather than having larger forces detail their assets on request.

 

I am sure it hasn't changed that much since my time, but  most senior police executives are like any other.  They can be tempted to initiate pet programs and use manpower a bit different to what was first envisoned by those considering and implementing the National police identity. In some cases local politicians particularly those in small communities feel their nose out of joint when dealing with a large major force rather than a sergeant and couple of men in a very small town.

 

Many years ago early 70's I was taking police management courses, one of the projects we were given was to research and devise a Metropolitan force for the Greater Vancouver area. There were six communities involved. It seemed simple but some of the things one thought would be easy were in fact the more complicated. Very high costs to change to one system for all communications phones etc. Buildings that were local police headquarters were not suitably located or of correct size for their place in a larger organisation. Standardised equipment and salaries for all members, cancelling of R.C.M.P. contracts. In interviews with local Mayors, Police Chiefs, and many of the constables it was not a popular idea, I recommended against.

 

I go back further to about 1956, how a good idea can get screwed up in operational implementation.  When I started in '55 it was all beat policing from local police boxes. A new concept I believe it was called the Aberdeen System of Team Policing was introduced. Instead of all working defined areas, the sergeant would be in a van.  He would load his delegated members into the van, and proceed to drop them off at high priority patrol areas. ( I should qualify

that this did not include the more downtown areas. But did such as Niddrie Craigmillar, Gilmerton Liberton over to Fairmilehead.) There were eight as a rule available for patrol as well as the sergeant and driver, After having spent time dropping all of he would return for the first member and take him somewhere else, and the same consecutively for all.

 

The downfall started with favoritism, if your face fit the sergeant would keep you in the van. Sometimes if a less than attractive job came up again the face fit factor operated and the non fit would be delegated the task. Variations the name for the office that delegated duties, now could short shift the 3rd and 4th sections to fill spots on the beat areas. Details for such as Saturday football jobs were easy to fill to the detriment of the Patrol numbers. When traffic started to increase in the sixties it became part of that patrol systems function to have men transported to intersections that were having problems dealing with the increased traffic, by doing points duty having switched off the traffic lights. Their sceduled patrol area was then short handed from about 4.00pm to return to duty after after conclusion of traffic duties at 6.00pm, and then a 45 minute meal.  So patrol was short for 3 hours or more of an eight hour shift .

 

I suspect that Police Scotland will be facing many of the problems I have seen in the long past, the idea is sound, the implementation and control has to be tightly scrutinised,reviewed, and adjusted as necessary.

[jake]

Theres a lot of lazy police out there.

And a lot are on the sick scrounging .

Fact.

[Maroon Sailor]

Theres a lot of lazy police out there.

And a lot are on the sick scrounging .

Fact.

If it is fact then why do you suppose that's the case ?

 

I can see being a Police Officer now as being more stressful than ever

[The Treasurer]

I know 2 long serving police officers.

Since Police Glasgow came into being one has left the force, the other is seriously considering other options before resigning.

Both are guys that wanted to be policemen all their lives and loved their jobs previously.

The one still serving says he spends a large part of his shifts being transported around the country to work in other areas due to staffing shortages.

[Governor Tarkin]

I know 2 long serving police officers.

Since Police Glasgow came into being one has left the force, the other is seriously considering other options before resigning.

Both are guys that wanted to be policemen all their lives and loved their jobs previously.

The one still serving says he spends a large part of his shifts being transported around the country to work in other areas due to staffing shortages.

This is a similar experience to mine.

[CollyWolly]

Theres a lot of lazy police out there.

And a lot are on the sick scrounging .

Fact.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement but there is a very small element of truth in it.

 

Lots of officers, especially the longer serving ones, suffer from 'burn out' i.e. years and years of high stress operational police work takes its toll and you just cant keep the level up.

If a cop does 30 years you'll be lucky if you get 23 good years. Its rare to find one who can work at full pelt for the full 30. If you want to equate that to simply being lazy then so be it.

Its got worse, far worse, since the forces amalgamated.

 

Sickness levels in the public sector are always pretty high. That's partly because, unlike most of the private sector, you get paid the same if you are off sick. That's open to abuse and there are always a certain element of people who 'malinger' and take advantage of the system.

 

Having said that we have a call centre on the outskirts of Edinburgh where the sickness rates are 32%, most of whom are off with stress related illnesses. All properly medically supervised and interviewed by medical officers (doctors) the police employ as soon as someone reports being off with stress. No doubt some are taking the piss, but there is a very serious problem when you have that level of sickness.

 

Lets not forget how bloody hard these jobs are. At that call centre they take horrendous levels of abuse from the public day after day, night after night, week after week. Its hardly any wonder that they start to fall of the perches, especially now given the lack of staff around them, the absence of leadership and support and the constant pressure that brings with it.

[IronJambo]

I'm worried about Police Scotland taking over the BTP in Scotland. I think BTP do a great job.

 

As far as normal policing goes I've not noticed a difference.

I think you're safe on that one. Very different type of policing. For starters, the BTP are not a response service.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Westminster budget cuts made it inevitable.

 

The merger was a massive money saver.

 

It was certainly meant to save money but I suspect you'll not be surprised that it hasn't done so.

[Neil Jung]

Actually it may well have.

 

Every time a house is screwed or a car or motorbike stolen in your post code area your insurance premium goes up.

 

Given the amount of housebreakings and auto crime in and around Edinburgh I'd say were are all paying in one way or another.

Housebreaking in Edinburgh is now an epidemic and so is car crime due to the linkage between the two. I see Ian Murray has raised this once again as south Edinburgh has been targeted recently. It's an absolute joke of a scenario and needs fixed.

[CollyWolly]

It was certainly meant to save money but I suspect you'll not be surprised that it hasn't done so.

No it cant have done YET. The first thing they had to do when they came in was de-skill ( pay them less) the civilian support work force. To start off down that path they had to overcome a lot of resistance by offering very generous voluntary redundancy packages to the high earners. When they go, as a lot of them have because the offer was too good to turn down, the experience goes with them. The next stage is cutting all the shift allowances and weekend enhancements for those coming in and anyone who changes post in house. It will take the best part of 5 years but eventually they will have a civilian support workforce on around 70% of the money that it currently costs. In the meantime they are covering a skills and staffing gap by taking cops of the street and putting them in call centres. The police service's biggest running cost by far is on staff and saving 30% on the civilian support workforce is massive. However all its doing is aligning with what they have been told the budget is. We don't get a better service as a result, we get a cheaper one. We get less qualified, lesser paid, less able and lesser motivated people in key positions, like answering 999 calls, which is a highly specialised position and requires a range of skills you just don't get for ?15 grand a year. The whole strategy is completely flawed and we'll end up with a REALLY shite police service because of it ( for those who think its bad now)

[Seymour M Hersh]

Housebreaking in Edinburgh is now an epidemic and so is car crime due to the linkage between the two. I see Ian Murray has raised this once again as south Edinburgh has been targeted recently. It's an absolute joke of a scenario and needs fixed.

 

There was a team in L&B dedicated to housebreaking crime it was recently disbanded and apparently housebreaking is up in the city by 50%. 

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

This isnt just a Scottish thing, several police forces in England have amalgamated in the past few years. 

In certain areas it makes perfect sense. Why have two departments fulfilling the same function 40 miles apart ie payroll, HR, procurement etc.

[Gorgiewave]

Unions never work.

 

I also pine for Dalriada.

 

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

There was a team in L&B dedicated to housebreaking crime it was recently disbanded and apparently housebreaking is up in the city by 50%. 

 

Thats simply not true. Only figures I can find is from the Scotsman saying over Scotland crime is down but housebreaking is up 14% in Edinburgh but given the sensationalist source I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

[Spencer]

Austerity from Wesminster biting?

Maybe it's what becomes of neglecting every revenue generating power devolved to Scottish Parliament in the interest of populism......

[Seymour M Hersh]

Thats simply not true. Only figures I can find is from the Scotsman saying over Scotland crime is down but housebreaking is up 14% in Edinburgh but given the sensationalist source I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

 

It was on the TV news about 2 weeks ago.

[aussieh]

It was on the TV news about 2 weeks ago.

The BBC, no doubt.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Thats simply not true. Only figures I can find is from the Scotsman saying over Scotland crime is down but housebreaking is up 14% in Edinburgh but given the sensationalist source I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

 

What is simply not true?  That the specialised unit has been disbanded or that burglaries have increased by 50% since then?  What sensationalist source?