The 2015 General Election Megathread

[michael_bolton]

As will the SNP in time as the new "establishment " party.

the arrogance and lack of accountability has already started

give them their dues they are fast learners!

 

What may or may not happen in the future is anyone's guess. In the present, Labour are rightly suffering for years of entitlement and arrogance.

[jambo1185]

so what about Scottish Tories and labour MPS who have voted on English-only matters for years.

 

In my view, shouldn't be permitted either, what party they are from is irrelevant. What matters is where their constituency is. Not that Mundell is exactly going to swing much by himself, but Labour have no doubt often needed their Scottish lot to get rUK things through or block stuff over the years.

Edited February 20, 2015 by jambo1185

[doctor jambo]

What may or may not happen in the future is anyone's guess. In the present, Labour are rightly suffering for years of entitlement and arrogance.

Its not a guess.

It happened to the liberals (remember they actually had majority UK govt once upon a time)

It then happened to Labour

Then the conservatives

Now labour again

 

If it was not for the distraction of the Tory Bete Noir , the public would already be bored .

Who would have thought devolved Scotland would be randomly arming police officers on the beat and randomly stopping its citizens and their children to search them without suspicion of a crime

And appointing state guardians for everyone INCLUDING people old enough to join the army and get married.

It that is your SNP independent Utopia then keep it

 

It's lucky their protecting us from crazed right wingers !

[TheMaganator]

 

Looking forward to getting home and watching last night's QT. I hear she had an absolute shocker

[The Godfather]

 

Looking forward to getting home and watching last night's QT. I hear she had an absolute shocker

More of a howler than shocker. Way out her depth. Enjoy.

[JamboX2]

They are the party in power at holyrood, on the basis that the government speaks for the county, then they do. Nothing to do with vogue, just things being what they are.

I'd argue they represent the country but don't speak for all of the country.

 

Like all governments. Its therefore wrong of them to make out their views are that of "Scotland". They are the views of the Scottish government.

Edited February 20, 2015 by JamboX2

[Gorgiewave]

 

25:00 - 25:25. Wee Nicola getting pranged on the kisser. Outstanding. :smug:

Edited February 20, 2015 by Gorgiewave

[djf]

Imagine how stupid you have to be to think that our nuclear arsenal makes the blind bit of difference to Russia's actions anywhere. 

[JamboX2]

Imagine how stupid you have to be to think that our nuclear arsenal makes the blind bit of difference to Russia's actions anywhere.

It limits them. It also prevents the escalation beyond a certain point.

 

I abhor the things, but I think unilateralism isn't really an option for Britain being on the UNSC and one of the three nuclear powers in NATO. I'd rather for now Britain suggested we massively cut the deterrent to the nuclear powers in return for proportionate reductions in their stockpiles.

 

Unilateralism just means you give them up with no emphasis on others. Sturgeon was right, having them breads a belief that they are needed. But the way to prevent proliferation is not unilateralism. That won't stop Iran or bring North Korea to the table. International efforts as a group in regulating nuclear materials and the trade of them and the development of them will.

 

Multilateralism is the only way forward.

[Gorgiewave]

It limits them. It also prevents the escalation beyond a certain point.

 

I abhor the things, but I think unilateralism isn't really an option for Britain being on the UNSC and one of the three nuclear powers in NATO. I'd rather for now Britain suggested we massively cut the deterrent to the nuclear powers in return for proportionate reductions in their stockpiles.

 

Unilateralism just means you give them up with no emphasis on others. Sturgeon was right, having them breads a belief that they are needed. But the way to prevent proliferation is not unilateralism. That won't stop Iran or bring North Korea to the table. International efforts as a group in regulating nuclear materials and the trade of them and the development of them will.

 

Multilateralism is the only way forward.

 

It would be very difficult to pull off but Michae Heseltine's suggestion of brining Russia into the EU is worth looking at. Guaranteed favourable trade terms for them, a hugely expanded market for everybody, a disincentive to aggression for Russia.

[JamboX2]

It would be very difficult to pull off but Michae Heseltine's suggestion of brining Russia into the EU is worth looking at. Guaranteed favourable trade terms for them, a hugely expanded market for everybody, a disincentive to aggression for Russia.

They will never be a full member. The eastern nations won't wear it, Putin won't sign up. I think what Hesseltine means by pact is more a trade deal and a military agreement to share intelligence and understand there is Russian spheres of influence and Western ones but to face the mess in the Middle East together.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Comparing poll tax to the super rich dodging their share......toiling really toiling!

[TheMaganator]

Comparing poll tax to the super rich dodging their share......toiling really toiling!

Tax evasion is either right or it is wrong.

 

(It's wrong btw)

[TheMaganator]

More of a howler than shocker. Way out her depth. Enjoy.

Painfully out her depth!

 

It's not so easy to get whoops & cheers when you don't have an audience full of nationalists!

[aussieh]

Painfully out her depth!

 

It's not so easy to get whoops & cheers when you don't have an audience full of nationalists!

I would like to see Cameron on QT in a Glesga Audience.

[Arnold Rothstein]

I would like to see Cameron on QT in a Glesga Audience.

 

 

What would happen pray tell?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What would happen pray tell?

I think aussieh might spontaneously combust.

 

If so, I agree with his idea.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

Tax evasion is either right or it is wrong.

 

(It's wrong btw)

I never payed a bolt to poll tax wouldn't have even if it was still active.

[TheMaganator]

I never payed a bolt to poll tax wouldn't have even if it was still active.

That's cool. You're a tax evader.

[AlphonseCapone]

Mods, any chance of changing the title to SNP obsession thread 2015?

[Pans Jambo]

Mods, any chance of changing the title to SNP obsession thread 2015?

Post of the thread IMO

Some fowk are just sucked into the systen & just dont want to think theres an alternative.

We know who they are.

[TheMaganator]

Post of the thread IMO

Some fowk are just sucked into the systen & just dont want to think theres an alternative.

We know who they are.

What's the alternative?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

What's the alternative?

Ukip

 

Green

 

Monster Raving Loony

[aussieh]

What's the alternative?

Minority parties, like Scottish Tory, and Scottish Liebour.

[The Mighty Thor]

Imagine how stupid you have to be to think that our nuclear arsenal makes the blind bit of difference to Russia's actions anywhere.

Correct.

 

Do we even have the codes for the missiles we bought from america or are they still locked in Obama's briefcase?

 

As for heseltines suggestion of inviting Russia into the EU? Its all very Chamberlain-esque. That turned out well too.

[TheMaganator]

Correct.

 

Do we even have the codes for the missiles we bought from america or are they still locked in Obama's briefcase?

 

As for heseltines suggestion of inviting Russia into the EU? Its all very Chamberlain-esque. That turned out well too.

He suggested trade agreements did he not? I'm

Not sure he went as far as saying they should be in the EU.

 

We don't just have a nuclear deterrent because if Russia. Why do you think it's a good idea for us to bin nukes whilst there's other nations who aren't quite as reasonable as us who would still have them?

 

As Heseltine said - to do do would be utterly reckless.

[TheMaganator]

Minority parties, like Scottish Tory, and Scottish Liebour.

UKIP

SNP

BNP

GREEN

SINN FEIN

SOCISLISTS

 

Which of these would you like to see governing the UK and what particular policy is it that they're offering that is most attractive to you?

[Psychedelicropcircle]

That's cool. You're a tax evader.

SAF mode on *****VEWY PWOUD******SAF mode off.

[Hasselhoff]

Tories have done well in the grand scheme of things over the last 5 years. Economy has improved considerably and if it is a choice between them continuing on this upwards path or Ed Miliband taking over and overspending again, I'd rather have Cameron in for another term.

 

As someone said on Question Time, the worst thing to have in a UK government is a party who are against the idea of the UK and so I hope Labour doesn't do a deal with the SNP if the chance arises.

[JamboX2]

I would like to see Cameron on QT in a Glesga Audience.

Do it in Govan. He's just signed a deal to keep the yards producing frigates and open for the next 10-15 years.

[JamboX2]

Mods, any chance of changing the title to SNP obsession thread 2015?

You could argue the debate on this thread runs on 3 lines:

 

1. Labour are Liebor and deserve to be swept into the bucket of history. After all they're red Tories. The SNP are the new wave of socialists and will make big gains for Scotland as the real and only alternative.

 

2. The SNP aren't what they're made out to be and will end up helping a Tory minority or majority government form. What then for Scotland?

 

3. It doesn't matter we'll be independent soon anyway.

 

4. (Polling debate)

 

If we are honest, from a Scottish perspective the big issue is how well the SNP will do. It's all they talk about on the news and radio up here. Down south, in Wales and NI the debate is not so polarised thanks to the lack of a referendum which asked the people to pick an idea of nationhood and so the election debate is jumping between issues - welfare, foreign affairs, education, health, the economy etc.

 

In Scotland we seem to not really care about what exactly our parties and their memebers will do for us but are focused on which party is the most Scottish. Which is a meaningless and unhelpful way to vote.

[JamboX2]

Correct.

 

Do we even have the codes for the missiles we bought from america or are they still locked in Obama's briefcase?

 

As for heseltines suggestion of inviting Russia into the EU? Its all very Chamberlain-esque. That turned out well too.

Unlike most nuclear nations, the UK PM cannot order the use of nuclear weapons. The U.S. president, Russian leader, Indian etc can all order attacks. The British system is one of escalation triggers. There have to be a set of specific circumstances to which the things can be prepared for launch by the military before a green light is given.

 

It's the opposite of live wire responses. It's designed to stop a mad man in office launch the things. Nothing to do with launch codes.

[2NaFish]

In Scotland we seem to not really care about what exactly our parties and their memebers will do for us but are focused on which party is the most Scottish. Which is a meaningless and unhelpful way to vote.

 

I've never heard anyone, positively, argue to vote for one party because they are the most scottish. To make that case whilst UKIP look set to pull in record numbers, if not seats, seems the wrong way around.

[JamboX2]

I've never heard anyone, positively, argue to vote for one party because they are the most scottish. To make that case whilst UKIP look set to pull in record numbers, if not seats, seems the wrong way around.

All you hear from the SNP is that they will do best for Scotland, will give Scotland a louder voice, will be the only ones to truly represent Scottish values and make the best deals for Scotland.

 

If that's not voting on Scottishness rather than policy I don't know what is. It's hardly a positive vision either.

[2NaFish]

All you hear from the SNP is that they will do best for Scotland, will give Scotland a louder voice, will be the only ones to truly represent Scottish values and make the best deals for Scotland.

 

If that's not voting on Scottishness rather than policy I don't know what is. It's hardly a positive vision either.

 

Do the best for scotland - any party will claim that. Also, nothing inherently scottish about that.

Give scotland a louder voice - nothing inherently scottish about that.

Will be the only ones to represent scottish values - do you have a link to them claiming this?

 

Seems to me you're conflating a monopoly of scottishness with representing constituents. You're the one cheapening the process, and you're doing it whilst trying to claim the process has been cheapened.

 

(also, you're confusing positive with good. positive as in "most scottish" rather than "least english/non-scottish")

Edited February 21, 2015 by 2NaFish

[TheMaganator]

Do the best for scotland - any party will claim that. Also, nothing inherently scottish about that.

Give scotland a louder voice - nothing inherently scottish about that.

Will be the only ones to represent scottish values - do you have a link to them claiming this?

 

Seems to me you're conflating a monopoly of scottishness with representing constituents. You're the one cheapening the process, and you're doing it whilst trying to claim the process has been cheapened.

 

(also, you're confusing positive with good. positive as in "most scottish" rather than "least english/non-scottish")

This SNP booklet asked various questions - all of the answers were Yes, so long as we voted Yes.

 

"Will my own kids be born into a society that is more equal and safer, a society that reflects the true values of Scotland?"

 

"The answer to every one of these questions can be yes. But only if Scotland becomes an independent nation."

 

http://www.snp.org/vision/better-scotland/independence

 

That was a 10second google search. There'll be countless others if you have a look.

[AlphonseCapone]

You could argue the debate on this thread runs on 3 lines:

 

1. Labour are Liebor and deserve to be swept into the bucket of history. After all they're red Tories. The SNP are the new wave of socialists and will make big gains for Scotland as the real and only alternative.

 

2. The SNP aren't what they're made out to be and will end up helping a Tory minority or majority government form. What then for Scotland?

 

3. It doesn't matter we'll be independent soon anyway.

 

4. (Polling debate)

 

If we are honest, from a Scottish perspective the big issue is how well the SNP will do. It's all they talk about on the news and radio up here. Down south, in Wales and NI the debate is not so polarised thanks to the lack of a referendum which asked the people to pick an idea of nationhood and so the election debate is jumping between issues - welfare, foreign affairs, education, health, the economy etc.

 

In Scotland we seem to not really care about what exactly our parties and their memebers will do for us but are focused on which party is the most Scottish. Which is a meaningless and unhelpful way to vote.

But I don't hear one party tell me why I should vote for them or what they'll do for me, all I hear is why I shouldn't vote for the SNP or how bad they'll be.

 

People on here are the same, in fact it's very Hibs like the way people aren't talking about the positive of their party but are obsessed with the negatives of other.

 

I'm not a SNP supporter, my vote is always up for grabs but regardless of the criticisms people level at them, they appear on course to win a record number of seats at a UK general election less than year after losing the fight they live for, why is that? Maybe it's time people focused less on what they see is wrong with the SNP and more on what record numbers of people see is right with them.

[2NaFish]

I asked for an example of a monopoly of scottishness, you've presented me with an example of scottishness. Do you have an example of a monopoly on scottishness?

[TheMaganator]

I asked for an example of a monopoly of scottishness, you've presented me with an example of scottishness. Do you have an example of a monopoly on scottishness?

?People in Scotland now know that it is only a vote for the SNP which will represent Scotland?s interests at Westminster and hold the No parties to account - which is exactly why support for the party is surging and membership now stands at over 92,000."

 

Angus Robertson SNP MP

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/nov/poll-scotland-rejects-westminster-establishment

[2NaFish]

you're conflating scotland's interests with scottishness. there's a difference between interests and values.

 

try again.

Edited February 21, 2015 by 2NaFish

[JamboX2]

you're conflating scotland's interests with scottishness. there's a difference between interests and values.

 

try again.

What are Scottish interests?

[2NaFish]

What are Scottish interests?

 

That which is for the benefit of Scotland. Scottishness isn't necessarily everything which is in our best interests. Bickering over semantics is a scottish trait, but it's not necessarily in our best interests.

Edited February 21, 2015 by 2NaFish

[JamboX2]

But I don't hear one party tell me why I should vote for them or what they'll do for me, all I hear is why I shouldn't vote for the SNP or how bad they'll be.

 

People on here are the same, in fact it's very Hibs like the way people aren't talking about the positive of their party but are obsessed with the negatives of other.

 

I'm not a SNP supporter, my vote is always up for grabs but regardless of the criticisms people level at them, they appear on course to win a record number of seats at a UK general election less than year after losing the fight they live for, why is that? Maybe it's time people focused less on what they see is wrong with the SNP and more on what record numbers of people see is right with them.

Agreed. But the electoral system we work in it's about limiting the others vote rather than maximising your own. Scottish Labour can pull it back to a 10 point gap and stop a rout to them only having 5 seats. That's how mad a system it is. It'd also be mad that a party with 4% of the total electorates vote was the kingmaker. The negative campaigning stems from a dreadful system of elections.

 

The SNP have been very adept in doing two things, appealing to as broad a base of electors as possible. Unlike Labour, the Tories and the LibDems the SNP don't appeal to a section of society traditionally. Part of their success is they appeal across classes which due to the older parties having being born in a class system of politics they struggle to do. You see that in England with the Greens and UKIP all appealing to middle, working and upper classes equally.

 

The second is their attacks on the other parties have been very astute and adept. As a party of government in a devolved parliament they can enact populist policies and garner support. But as a party of opposition in London they can attack the reforms on welfare, the economy and defence as readily as they want with no need to test their plans in action, so far.

Edited February 21, 2015 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

That which is for the benefit of Scotland. Scottishness isn't necessarily everything which is in our best interests. Bickering over semantics is a scottish trait, but it's not necessarily in our best interests.

Things which may benefit Scotland as a nation, may not necessarily benefit the people in Scotland. You could say cuts to corporation tax will cause a growth in the economy, but will that benefit workers wages or terms or conditions? It could be in Scotland's interests not to have fracking but is it in the interests of the workers of the Grangemouth plant?

 

I don't agree with politics running on national interests. Politics works based when interests are based on societal ones and between different groups. Not when a party runs on some sort of national interest.

[2NaFish]

Things which may benefit Scotland as a nation, may not necessarily benefit the people in Scotland. You could say cuts to corporation tax will cause a growth in the economy, but will that benefit workers wages or terms or conditions? It could be in Scotland's interests not to have fracking but is it in the interests of the workers of the Grangemouth plant?

 

I don't agree with politics running on national interests. Politics works based when interests are based on societal ones and between different groups. Not when a party runs on some sort of national interest.

 

Surely a national interest is all encompassing? It includes society, industry, commerce etc.

[JamboX2]

Surely a national interest is all encompassing? It includes society, industry, commerce etc.

I'd disagree. Those sections of society have competing interests against one another. The business sector has an interest in profit and money making and keeping costs low. Workers have an interest in a good wage, strong social services and a tax system that provides that. The two are competing interests. Look at the tax avoidance of big business and the reluctance to pay a living wage by many to see that.

 

To be all things to all people means in effect you are nothing to any one set. In turn by claiming you stand for the national interest you can turn with the wind on what you think is the national interest. Sturgeon could have a deal post May whereby she gets a separate Scottish rate of corporation tax and in turn this results in firms North of the border making bigger profits. That's not a national gain unless those profits are invested back in the national. It is a sectional gain that benefits a few.

[2NaFish]

I'd disagree. Those sections of society have competing interests against one another. The business sector has an interest in profit and money making and keeping costs low. Workers have an interest in a good wage, strong social services and a tax system that provides that. The two are competing interests. Look at the tax avoidance of big business and the reluctance to pay a living wage by many to see that.

 

To be all things to all people means in effect you are nothing to any one set. In turn by claiming you stand for the national interest you can turn with the wind on what you think is the national interest. Sturgeon could have a deal post May whereby she gets a separate Scottish rate of corporation tax and in turn this results in firms North of the border making bigger profits. That's not a national gain unless those profits are invested back in the national. It is a sectional gain that benefits a few.

 

To play off societal groups against the nation is a false dichotomoy. The nation is all encompassing. It's like comparing beaves and tomatos; different parts of the taxonimcal tree.

[JamboX2]

To play off societal groups against the nation is a false dichotomoy. The nation is all encompassing. It's like comparing beaves and tomatos; different parts of the taxonimcal tree.

Then what is the need for party politics?

[Gizmo]

Odd to see the boot being put into Sturgeon from labour & tories alike yet:

 

 

Seems she had less of a howler and made more of an impression than the rest of the carefully-chosen panel despite the usual engineered audience.

Here's a useful plot of the parties respective policy positions plotted (via Wings whose own position is plotted, too) on The Political Compass. Previous positions held are the striped dots.



You can plot your own place on the graph here, well worth everyone doing this I think: https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Your own beliefs and views may not line up with your party of choice as closely as you think - my own graph is almost exactly on the same spot as the greens.



 

[2NaFish]

Then what is the need for party politics?

 

I'm not saying that there's an objective notion of the nation.