Would Scotland be a better place if...

[Makween]

Back to School: The Act Of Union was simply the 18th Century equivalent of the European Union. It was a political necessity as the Monarchy had been united due to inbreeding meaning that the Scottish king inherited the English crown, and the Scottish Govt had pretty much bankrupted the nation over the Darrian Project. Britain is a political grouping of nations, not a nation in itself.

 

It isn't a nation in itself, but it is a country. Now, you can go back and argue semantics over what you said earlier if you want, but it was pretty obvious what you were getting at - you don't seem to think that it's "acceptable" to take a pride in being British.

 

Not in my opinion, no. This week showed the huns for what they really are. For many of us it was entirely predictable.

 

Are the huns 'fair game' for any sort of criticism - Yes.

 

They are the problem - not Celtic, not the OF, not Scottish Football.

 

The huns deserve everything that is coming their way

 

So the word "Hun" is okay, but the word "Thelick" isn't - even though it's "Hun" that was deemed sectarian by Nil By Mouth? Strange.

[Charlie-Brown]

DH the entire edifice of Old Firm economic superiority is based on marketing exploitation of their fans unique 'preferences'...........

[Drylaw Hearts]

DH the entire edifice of Old Firm economic superiority is based on marketing exploitation of their fans unique 'preferences'...........

 

Yes it is.

 

Celtic shifted thousands of Home Shirts when they signed the donkey that is/was Dion Dublin.

 

A Celtic Top with Dublin on the back was like porn to follower of Celtic.

 

As was the orange Rangers Strip to a 'Ger.

[Sheriff Fatman]

It isn't a nation in itself, but it is a country. Now, you can go back and argue semantics over what you said earlier if you want, but it was pretty obvious what you were getting at - you don't seem to think that it's "acceptable" to take a pride in being British.

 

England is a wonderful place, with wonderful people (mostly). I take pride in my English heritage.

Scotland is a wonderful place with wonderful people (mostly). I take pride in my Scottish heritage

Wales is a wonderful place with wonderful people (mostly).

Northern Ireland is a wonderful place with wonderful people (mostly)

 

Britain is a fake political construct built out of greed and incompetence by corrupt politicians. There is no pride in that.

[Spellczech]

It isn't a nation in itself, but it is a country. Now, you can go back and argue semantics over what you said earlier if you want, but it was pretty obvious what you were getting at - you don't seem to think that it's "acceptable" to take a pride in being British.

 

 

For hundreds of years Britons have questioned what it means to be British...The English always confused being British and being English. The Welsh are so desperate to distinguish Welshness that they've adopted mining and singing as being Welsh! Scottish culture for the last 300 years has been swallowed up into Britishness to the extent that we are a parody of ourselves too - tartan & whisky is about it...Sir Walter Scott wrote his romantic novels in an effort to define a Scottishness before it got diluted and lost. Many Scots sought and found success in London and the Empire. The Empire died and the next logical step is for the Act of Union to eventually be dissolved. Scotland's footprint on the World is now miniscule where once it was huge. The only way it can grow again is to get our identity back from the political mishmash that is Britain...

 

Circumstances change. Politics change. But Rangers don't change it seems...

[redm]

I agree.

 

The sooner Celtic win the SPL the sooner I will begin to hate them again.

 

 

 

Absofuzzinglutely. Celtic will go to extraordinary lengths to help their neighbours in blue. It's really quite remarkable....hehe.

 

Speaking of Murray, I've never liked that man since I met him at a party around the time of the rumours that Rangers were plotting to steal Neil McCann. He looked me in the eye and lied like the skilled fib technician that he undoubtedly is. Denied it outright, he didn't rate McCann at all apparently. They came and took him away about 4 days later.

 

Also, his eyes are spaced much too far apart.

[The Real Maroonblood]

For hundreds of years Britons have questioned what it means to be British...The English always confused being British and being English. The Welsh are so desperate to distinguish Welshness that they've adopted mining and singing as being Welsh! Scottish culture for the last 300 years has been swallowed up into Britishness to the extent that we are a parody of ourselves too - tartan & whisky is about it...Sir Walter Scott wrote his romantic novels in an effort to define a Scottishness before it got diluted and lost. Many Scots sought and found success in London and the Empire. The Empire died and the next logical step is for the Act of Union to eventually be dissolved. Scotland's footprint on the World is now miniscule where once it was huge. The only way it can grow again is to get our identity back from the political mishmash that is Britain...

 

Circumstances change. Politics change. But Rangers don't change it seems...

 

Very well put.

[Makween]

England is a wonderful place, with wonderful people (mostly).

Scotland is a wonderful place with wonderful people (mostly).

Wales is a wonderful place with wonderful people (mostly).

Northern Ireland is a wonderful place with wonderful people (mostly)

 

Britain is a fake political construct built out of greed and incompetance by corrupt polititians.

 

For hundreds of years Britons have questioned what it means to be British...The English always confused being British and being English. The Welsh are so desperate to distinguish Welshness that they've adopted mining and singing as being Welsh! Scottish culture for the last 300 years has been swallowed up into Britishness to the extent that we are a parody of ourselves too - tartan & whisky is about it...Sir Walter Scott wrote his romantic novels in an effort to define a Scottishness before it got diluted and lost. Many Scots sought and found success in London and the Empire. The Empire died and the next logical step is for the Act of Union to eventually be dissolved. Scotland's footprint on the World is now miniscule where once it was huge. The only way it can grow again is to get our identity back from the political mishmash that is Britain...

 

Circumstances change. Politics change. But Rangers don't change it seems...

 

Big long paragraph there, filled entirely with opinion.

 

Politics are subjective - if others view themselves as being British, and take a pride in it, it's really none of your business. I do find it strange that you're calling one form of nationalism an anachronism, whilst hailing another form as progressive politics. That says more to me about your own prejudices than anything else.

 

Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales have hundreds of years of shared culture. Taking a pride in being British doesn't necessarily negate pride in being Scottish, and vice versa. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible at best and bigoted at worst.

[Drylaw Hearts]

 

Absofuzzinglutely. Celtic will go to extraordinary lengths to help their neighbours in blue. It's really quite remarkable....hehe.

 

Speaking of Murray, I've never liked that man since I met him at a party around the time of the rumours that Rangers were plotting to steal Neil McCann. He looked me in the eye and lied like the skilled fib technician that he undoubtedly is. Denied it outright, he didn't rate McCann at all apparently. They came and took him away about 4 days later.

 

Also, his eyes are spaced much too far apart.

 

Worse than Kate Thorntons ?

 

[Sheriff Fatman]

Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales have hundreds of years of shared culture.

 

We have thousands of years of shared culture with Europe so logically the EU is a better idea than 'Britain'.

[Makween]

We have thousands of years of shared culture with Europe so logically the EU is a better idea than 'Britain'.

 

...which would be a good argument, if absolutely everyone who took a pride in being British was against the EU. Which isn't really the case.

 

It's a pretty spurious argument either way. Britain's been a sovereign country for several hundred years now, Europe hasn't.

[colinmaroon]

Far better to cull ra sellik. The history and ethos of that club is much more repulsive.

 

Rangers FC are reviled by many on here in an attempt to establish their PC credentials and prove they are "right on". All Rangers FC is guilty of is playing on the concept of Britishness, hardly a crime given what it says on our passports.

 

 

 

What a load of total skoobala!!!

 

 

Concept of Britishness, yes, in the sense of the "Britishness" that tried to screw the American colonies into the dust in their unbridled arrogance!

 

In the sense of "Britishness" that plundered the continent of Africa and left a legacy of hate!

 

 

In the sense of the "Britishness" of the Raj, yet again unbridled arrogance and shortsightedness!!!

 

 

 

 

 

...................

[Makween]

What a load of total skoobala!!!

 

 

Concept of Britishness, yes, in the sense of the "Britishness" that tried to screw the American colonies into the dust in their unbridled arrogance!

 

In the sense of "Britishness" that plundered the continent of Africa and left a legacy of hate!

 

 

In the sense of the "Britishness" of the Raj, yet again unbridled arrogance and shortsightedness!!!

 

 

 

 

 

...................

 

...says the proud Christian. Hmm.

[redm]

DH the entire edifice of Old Firm economic superiority is based on marketing exploitation of their fans unique 'preferences'...........

 

Yup, and this is another reason why they sound so flippin stupid when they turn up on the telly to inform us that these people aren't 'proper' Rangers fans and that they're not considered to be associated with the club in any way, shape or form. They created the monster, so they should be dealing with the consequences. I'm quite sure they weren't in so much of a hurry to tell these guys that they're not proper fans when they were taking payment for the thousands of Rangers tops they must have sold to them over the last few weeks....or months...or seasons past....

 

I don't see their cash being disassociated with Rangers Football Club.

[Boaby Ewing]

My biggest problem with Rangers is that so much of their support is formed of the hideous

Glaswegian underclass.

 

The NIrish Unionist pish is just something for them to attach their bitter little beings to. When you've got feck all going for you, I guess it's easier to base your identity on pointless hatred rather than anything remotedly positive.

 

If that makes me PC, then so be it.

[Sheriff Fatman]

...which would be a good argument, if absolutely everyone who took a pride in being British was against the EU. Which isn't really the case.

 

It's a pretty spurious argument either way. Britain's been a sovereign country for several hundred years now, Europe hasn't.

 

Na, it's just the Daily Wail element of the 'British Nationalists' that are ardently against the EU.

 

What does the lenth of time a political union has been in existance have to do with how legitimate it is?

[Makween]

Na, it's just the Daily Wail element of the 'British Nationalists' that are ardently against the EU.

 

What does the lenth of time a political union has been in existance have to do with how legitimate it is?

 

If we're really going to be pedantic here, Scotland wasn't always a nation in its own right either.

 

I wouldn't say that the length of time that a political union's been in existence necessarily impacts on its legitimacy. It was someone else who brought up the fact that Britain's only existed for a few hundred years as an argument against pride in being British.

 

To compare the Act of Union with the European Union just strikes me as deliberately obtuse. Britain's a sovereign country, Europe isn't. The EU is a political arrangement mostly to help trade.

 

Edit : As for your point about this "Daily Mail" element, what about the large anti English element within the Scottish Nationalists?

[brellierlegend]

In my opinion they are both as terrible as eachother. I would prefer to see both of them shut down.

 

The argument on this thread is pathetic from both sides. I repeat - they are both as bad as eachother!!!!

 

Their songs are a disgrace and have nothing to do with football. Why we as Jambos are wasting our time talking about the filth from the west is beyond me.

[colinmaroon]

...says the proud Christian. Hmm.

 

Please explain!!!

 

 

Because that seems to me to be just another attempt to divert the focus away from the subject at hand by stating a completely stupid oxymoron!!!

 

 

 

 

...................

[MacDonald Jardine]

We have thousands of years of shared culture with Europe so logically the EU is a better idea than 'Britain'.

 

But no shared culture with the countries we share an island with?

[Spellczech]

Big long paragraph there, filled entirely with opinion.

 

Politics are subjective - if others view themselves as being British, and take a pride in it, it's really none of your business. I do find it strange that you're calling one form of nationalism an anachronism, whilst hailing another form as progressive politics. That says more to me about your own prejudices than anything else.

 

Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales have hundreds of years of shared culture. Taking a pride in being British doesn't necessarily negate pride in being Scottish, and vice versa. To suggest otherwise is irresponsible at best and bigoted at worst.

 

It wasn't that long a paragraph, and there ought to have been enough syntax that you could cope with it If it is indeed "opinion" then feel free to refute any of it.

 

You are contradicting yourself now. Britain is not a nation. You called it a country, and that is probably correct in that it has defined borders, passports and international recognition. If you can distinguish being British as something tangible and not just an amalgam of Scottishness, Welshness and Englishness or things that are associated with the old Empire such as tea and conquering foreign countries, then well done for you(this would of course make Britishness an anachronism as the Empire is gone!).

 

I've not hailed anything as progressive politics, merely as a likely and logical path...perhaps not an inevitability, as that would be presumptuous on my part

 

I'm amused by your argument about me being both "prejudiced" and "bigotted", but I sense you are getting frustrated and that these inflamatory terms are being used as pseudo-intellectual name-calling...Thanks for not saying I have Timpathetic tendencies:p

[Makween]

Please explain!!!

 

 

Because that seems to me to be just another attempt to divert the focus away from the subject at hand by stating a completely stupid oxymoron!!!

 

 

 

 

...................

 

It isn't an oxymoron, no matter how many exclamation marks you choose to use.

 

If you're going to talk about "unbridled arrogance and shortsightedness" through the years, there are few better examples of the Christian faith. Which is the thought that I'm going to leave you all with for the moment, as I've got a bus to catch. That's also 1,000 not out.

 

Peace out, love Makween xXx

[Sherlock]

My biggest problem with Rangers is that so much of their support is formed of the hideous ********* Glaswegian underclass.

 

The NIrish Unionist pish is just something for them to attach their bitter little beings to. When you've got feck all going for you, I guess it's easier to base your identity on pointless hatred rather than anything remotedly positive.

 

If that makes me PC, then so be it.

 

I'm with you on this one DDLN.

 

Best post on the whole thread.

[colinmaroon]

It isn't an oxymoron, no matter how many exclamation marks you choose to use.

 

If you're going to talk about "unbridled arrogance and shortsightedness" through the years, there are few better examples of the Christian faith. Which is the thought that I'm going to leave you all with for the moment, as I've got a bus to catch. That's also 1,000 not out.

 

Peace out, love Makween xXx

 

 

 

You do not have a clue do you?

 

 

The name Christian has been put to much over the last 2,000 years - 90% of it at least the misappropriation of political power (from Constantine on, down through the Crusades and up to the present day) and as far from true Christianity as it's possible to get!

 

You run away and catch your bus, just as you're running away from the truth - and while you may or may not catch your bus - one day the truth will catch up with you!!!

 

 

 

The truth about Rangers AND Celtic - and for me I only dislike Rangers MARGINALLY more than Celtic because, being brought up in the Glasgow area, my formative years were plagued by the arrogance and ignorance of the BroxPox brigade!!!

 

Both have undesirable elements, but for me it comes down to the footballing side of things, and they are both bullies who think they have the right to get things the way they want them!

 

 

 

 

 

.......................

[Spellczech]

If we're really going to be pedantic here, Scotland wasn't always a nation in its own right either.

 

I wouldn't say that the length of time that a political union's been in existence necessarily impacts on its legitimacy. It was someone else who brought up the fact that Britain's only existed for a few hundred years as an argument against pride in being British.

 

To compare the Act of Union with the European Union just strikes me as deliberately obtuse. Britain's a sovereign country, Europe isn't. The EU is a political arrangement mostly to help trade.

 

Edit : As for your point about this "Daily Mail" element, what about the large anti English element within the Scottish Nationalists?

 

LOL So is Britain. The Act of Union provided the English with the boundary security from which their navy, army and traders could venture farther afield.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Edit : As for your point about this "Daily Mail" element, what about the large anti English element within the Scottish Nationalists?

 

I have about as much time for the anti-English element amoungst Scottish Nationalists as I do for the Little Englander element of the Daily Wail readership.

[Rods]

I do admit I hate celtic more, this is probably down to 1986.

 

What I do hate is the OF, flying flags of other countries.

 

When I seen all the UJ's on wedensday night, I was riled up.

[Sheriff Fatman]

But no shared culture with the countries we share an island with?

 

Not quite the point I was making.

[redm]

Worse than Kate Thorntons ?

 

Kate's are 3cm apart, Dave's are not far behind at 2.8cm. My methods weren't particularly scientific though, so to allow for human error and miscalculations of scale etc. I should probably just add on 0.3cm to Dave's results and let him win that one. He deserves it after the week he's had. Those 3.1cm are no laughing matter...it could well explain his terrible visual problems and the difficulty he had in picking out thousands of Rangers fans in a crowd of thousands of Rangers fans. Goodness knows how to explain away his inability to recognise a Glaswegian accent though....my ruler isn't big enough to measure the vast, empty space between his ears.

 

[MacDonald Jardine]

Not quite the point I was making.

 

Could your explain your point then?

The clear inference is that because of the years of shared culture with mainland Europe we are closer to them than we are to the other British nations.

[Therapist]

Could your explain your point then?

The clear inference is that because of the years of shared culture with mainland Europe we are closer to them than we are to the other British nations.

 

The only things we've shared with Europe over the years are countless wars. To suggest the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland shares cultural ties with mainland Europe is the rantings of a diseased mind.

[Spellczech]

The only things we've shared with Europe over the years are countless wars. To suggest the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland shares cultural ties with mainland Europe is the rantings of a diseased mind.

 

IIRC prior to the Act of Union the previous lot that Scotland fought from Europe were the Romans...

[Therapist]

IIRC prior to the Act of Union the previous lot that Scotland fought from Europe were the Romans...

 

I suggest you re-read my post. I specifically said the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland*. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Or if you wish to be really pedantic, the whole of Ireland before we cast off the southern bit.

[ToadKiller Dog]

I suggest you re-read my post. I specifically said the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland*. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Or if you wish to be really pedantic, the whole of Ireland before we cast off the southern bit.

 

Ermm where does the nobility the head of united kingdom of Great Britian and northern ireland originate from ? maybes imported from europe.

 

Evidence of the trade of ideas/goods between the continent and these islands go back to the stone age long before concepts of nationalism were founded.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Kate's are 3cm apart, Dave's are not far behind at 2.8cm. My methods weren't particularly scientific though, so to allow for human error and miscalculations of scale etc. I should probably just add on 0.3cm to Dave's results and let him win that one. He deserves it after the week he's had. Those 3.1cm are no laughing matter...it could well explain his terrible visual problems and the difficulty he had in picking out thousands of Rangers fans in a crowd of thousands of Rangers fans. Goodness knows how to explain away his inability to recognise a Glaswegian accent though....my ruler isn't big enough to measure the vast, empty space between his ears.

 

 

 

I admire the way you carried out that task.

 

John Tickle would be proud of you.

 

[Sheriff Fatman]

Could your explain your point then?

The clear inference is that because of the years of shared culture with mainland Europe we are closer to them than we are to the other British nations.

 

The point was that we have a shared culture with the whole of Europe (including all the other nations on the British isles) that goes back thousands of years. Far futher than the hundreds of year Makween mentioned, and just as pointless when it comes to discussing fake political entities.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The OF problem:

 

Rangers- attempt to be more British than people who regard themselves as British. Yet with behaviour like Wednesday night they damage the very institutions (e.g. The Union) they claim to cherish.

 

Celtic - have moved on from trying to out-Irish the Irish. As things have changed in Ireland, North and South, Celtic have moved on from playing the "victims" card to being associated with the cuddly toy image of Irishness abroad. However, in their domestic market, we know different.

 

If one would disappear, so would the other, as they are two sides of the same coin. Sadly, there is no likelihood of that happening.

[Sheriff Fatman]

The only things we've shared with Europe over the years are countless wars. To suggest the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland shares cultural ties with mainland Europe is the rantings of a diseased mind.

 

Oh the irony coming from such a man as yourself. How can I live with myself after being put down by a bigot.

[Therapist]

Ermm where does the nobility the head of united kingdom of Great Britian and northern ireland originate from ? maybes imported from europe.

 

The various royal families and nobility of Europe inter-married in a vain attempt to minimise scrapping. This backs up my previous point that European contacts were much more about war than culture.

[Therapist]

Oh the irony coming from such a man as yourself. How can I live with myself after being put down by a bigot.

 

As I'm no bigot, there's no need to be on such a downer.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I'm no bigot

 

Yup and the moons made of brie.

[Drylaw Hearts]

As I'm no bigot, there's no need to be on such a downer.

 

You're not ?

 

Then maybe you should audition for Britian's Got Talent.

 

'Cause you don't half do a great impression of one.

[Therapist]

You're not ?

 

If you can find one bigoted post I've made I will never set cyber foot on this board again.

 

The problem is that the PC Hand Wringing Brigade want to see bigotry everywhere, particularly when they know someone supports Chelsea FC as well as Heart of Midlothian FC. It is stereotyping at its worst.

[Drylaw Hearts]

If you can find one bigoted post I've made I will never set cyber foot on this board again.

 

The problem is that the PC Hand Wringing Brigade want to see bigotry everywhere, particularly when they know someone supports Chelsea FC as well as Heart of Midlothian FC. It is stereotyping at its worst.

 

Don't forghet Rangers !!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The various royal families and nobility of Europe inter-married in a vain attempt to minimise scrapping. This backs up my previous point that European contacts were much more about war than culture.

 

No, they inter-married because they were part of the same dynastic class. Commoners were useful gigolos and mistresses but couldn't be anything else.

 

Anyhow, I thought we weren't talking about the 17th century?

[Therapist]

Don't forghet Rangers !!

 

I didn't. But as I don't support Rangers FC, mentioning them would have been superfluous to the point I was making.

[Therapist]

No, they inter-married because they were part of the same dynastic class.

 

Incorrect. If that were the case, they would have married someone of similar social standing from within their own country.

[ToadKiller Dog]

The various royal families and nobility of Europe inter-married in a vain attempt to minimise scrapping. This backs up my previous point that European contacts were much more about war than culture.

 

War(in the modern sense) is a symptom of the land grab that comes from imperialistic empire building from the european powers during the start of the modern world,Culture was still a part of the movement of ideas ,the 1700s Paris was the fashion capital others copied,writers/thinkers looked at the classical period in Europe (greece rome etc) when developing ideas of the enlightenment .You can see the links to europe and beyond in our language the english language has absorbed ideas from out with its own island far better than any other language.

To argue that the UK is totally in its culture separate from Europe is wrong ,why did Dickens write a tale of two cities ?.

 

getting very shed like this debate.

[Drylaw Hearts]

I didn't. But as I don't support Rangers FC, mentioning them would have been superfluous to the point I was making.

 

It does appear you have rather a large soft spot for them though.

[The Old Tolbooth]

I don't normally agree with Therapist, however he hasn't actually stated anything bigotted as far as I can see on this thread, or as far as I can remember on any other thread.

 

He states his opinions on what he believes to be true, whether people like it or not, most of it he probably believes himself, and some is clearly done on wind up purposes (don't even try and deny it Mr!)

 

At the end of the day, his beliefs are his beliefs, and his thoughts are his thoughts, I don't agree with most of them either but I respect someone for having the balls to stand up and voice his opinion, kinda like Coppercrutch on the estate agents thread.

 

Therapist is obviously swayed a lot more to the Rangers FC side of things, whereas I'm not, but hey, life would be boring if we all thought the same now wouldn't it?

 

It makes for good debate