Scallywag Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Just a question guys, but how do you calculate your percentage for betting. Do you do the maths, have you memorised estimates of particular hands or do you use software. I know this is something I need to improve, I tend to play to much on instinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Hardcastle Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 We're just talking about that above your post! Think it'll be a go-er... After uninstalling hill poekr on the 1st of Jan id be game to get back into it. Id be game fora few jkb tournys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Just a question guys, but how do you calculate your percentage for betting. Do you do the maths, have you memorised estimates of particular hands or do you use software. I know this is something I need to improve, I tend to play to much on instinct. Do you mean how to calculate your chance of having the winning hand? Preflop- easiest to know by "situation", eg 2 overcards against a pair is roughly a coinflip, A pair against one over card is roughly a 67% favourite and a pair against a smaller pair is roughly 80% favourite. After the flop- The rough guide I use when calculating mentally is to count your outs (making sure you haven't duplicated any!) and multiply by 4 to give your percentage change of hitting e.g if you've got a flush draw and no overcards or straight possibility, there will be 9 of the suit left in the pack (you can't make any assumptions on how many were folded or are held by other players) so you'll have roughly a 36% chance of hitting After the turn- Same again, but multiply by 2 instead of 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Just a question guys, but how do you calculate your percentage for betting. Do you do the maths, have you memorised estimates of particular hands or do you use software. I know this is something I need to improve, I tend to play to much on instinct. Use the 2-4 rule. http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/tips/the-2-4-rule-for-odds.htm All you have to do is memorise the outs for a flush draw, straight draw, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Use the 2-4 rule. http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/tips/the-2-4-rule-for-odds.htm All you have to do is memorise the outs for a flush draw, straight draw, etc. I can't access that from work- any chance you can copy/paste? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsmak Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 06-28-05, LearnTexasHoldem: The 2/4 Rule For Calculating Odds One of the hard things to do in holdem is to calculate odds on the fly. Regular flush draws and straight draws are easy to figure, since you run across them so often. What is difficult is calculating weird drawing hands. Remember, how we determine if a drawing hand is worth calling is comparing how much we might win with what our chances are of hitting. If we put in money into long shot draws and don't get enough chips back, we lose in the long run (regardless of the short term results). If you play holdem tournament, often times decisions will come down to comparing how much a person bet with how much is in the pot. One question I get often is: How do I know my chances of hitting my draw without having to do complex math in my head at the poker table? We have a quick way of figuring the odds and it is the 2/4 rule. The 2/4 rule gives you an answer that is within a percent or two of the actual figure. How the 2/4 rule for poker odds is as follows. First, you need to count your outs. Outs in holdem are cards that can come to complete your hand. Let's say you have four to the flush on the flop. There are 9 cards left in the deck that can come to complete your flush (there are 13 of each suite in a deck). Now, next you multiply your outs by either 2 or 4 depending on if you are going to see one or two cards (either the turn or river, or turn and river). That number is then the amount of time your draw will hit. So for my flush draw to hit on either the turn or river I multiply my 9 outs by 4. That gives me 36. That means there is a 36% chance of my flush getting there if I call both the turn AND river. If I were to only see the turn OR river card, I would only multiply my outs by 2 -- which equals 18%. This comes in very handy. You'll be faced with decisions based on odds all the time. In big multi-way limit holdem pots you'll sometimes have a weak holding but there might be enough money in the pot to peel off a card and in no limit holdem, how much your opponent bets will always be a consideration whether or not you call. I'm going to one more example: I have A5s in the big blind in limit holdem. Three people limp and a person in the back raises. I call. Everyone calls. I make a quick mental note before the flop that there are 10 small bets in the pot. The flop comes back J-8-5. One person checks, another person bets and the preflop raiser just calls. Should I call, knowing that the first person most likely already has a Jack to beat me? In this case, I would call to see the turn card only. My chance to hit one of my two more 5's or three more Aces is around 10% on the turn card. I multiply my 5 outs by 2. I only multiply by 2 instead of 4 because I'm not going to see the river card too, just the turn card unless I hit. I'm getting that amount on the flop right now alone, and I can figure I'll make even more money from the people after the flop too. If this were a no limit holdem game, I would be making a similar calculation on the flop to see whether it was worth investing more in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 06-28-05, LearnTexasHoldem:The 2/4 Rule For Calculating Odds One of the hard things to do in holdem is to calculate odds on the fly. Regular flush draws and straight draws are easy to figure, since you run across them so often. What is difficult is calculating weird drawing hands. Remember, how we determine if a drawing hand is worth calling is comparing how much we might win with what our chances are of hitting. If we put in money into long shot draws and don't get enough chips back, we lose in the long run (regardless of the short term results). If you play holdem tournament, often times decisions will come down to comparing how much a person bet with how much is in the pot. One question I get often is: How do I know my chances of hitting my draw without having to do complex math in my head at the poker table? We have a quick way of figuring the odds and it is the 2/4 rule. The 2/4 rule gives you an answer that is within a percent or two of the actual figure. How the 2/4 rule for poker odds is as follows. First, you need to count your outs. Outs in holdem are cards that can come to complete your hand. Let's say you have four to the flush on the flop. There are 9 cards left in the deck that can come to complete your flush (there are 13 of each suite in a deck). Now, next you multiply your outs by either 2 or 4 depending on if you are going to see one or two cards (either the turn or river, or turn and river). That number is then the amount of time your draw will hit. So for my flush draw to hit on either the turn or river I multiply my 9 outs by 4. That gives me 36. That means there is a 36% chance of my flush getting there if I call both the turn AND river. If I were to only see the turn OR river card, I would only multiply my outs by 2 -- which equals 18%. This comes in very handy. You'll be faced with decisions based on odds all the time. In big multi-way limit holdem pots you'll sometimes have a weak holding but there might be enough money in the pot to peel off a card and in no limit holdem, how much your opponent bets will always be a consideration whether or not you call. I'm going to one more example: I have A5s in the big blind in limit holdem. Three people limp and a person in the back raises. I call. Everyone calls. I make a quick mental note before the flop that there are 10 small bets in the pot. The flop comes back J-8-5. One person checks, another person bets and the preflop raiser just calls. Should I call, knowing that the first person most likely already has a Jack to beat me? In this case, I would call to see the turn card only. My chance to hit one of my two more 5's or three more Aces is around 10% on the turn card. I multiply my 5 outs by 2. I only multiply by 2 instead of 4 because I'm not going to see the river card too, just the turn card unless I hit. I'm getting that amount on the flop right now alone, and I can figure I'll make even more money from the people after the flop too. If this were a no limit holdem game, I would be making a similar calculation on the flop to see whether it was worth investing more in. Cheers Bigsmak (and MJ). Thought it would be something similar to what I posted but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any tricks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Interesting. I play on instinct basically and the odds don't come into it too often. I know how likely I am to hit a straight or flush etc and won't pay over the odds to do so, but feel you can't just take into account hitting your draw. There is still ways to win the pot if you don't get there. Calling a flop bet and the opponent showing a weak turn bet or even a check, then the pot is there for the taking quite often. It all just depends, playing rigidly to odds would bore the crap out of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm getting quite ****ed off. I'm trying to build the bank by playing the double or nothing games but find myself winning a few then losing a bigger one so I'm back to square one. Any tips on how to play these tournaments? Most of the tossers just try and hold on for 3rd place but it's a tightrope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm getting quite ****ed off. I'm trying to build the bank by playing the double or nothing games but find myself winning a few then losing a bigger one so I'm back to square one. Any tips on how to play these tournaments? Most of the tossers just try and hold on for 3rd place but it's a tightrope. As long as you've been playing long enough to be a good judge of situations, I'd often try and play the opposite of what the rest of the table is doing and I think the double up games are a classic example of where this can be useful. Don't go overboard, but if everybody at the table is playing extremely tight you should be looking to steal the blinds more than usual and extend your own range of hands. If somebody plays back at you though, don't be afraid to dump your hand if you feel they've got a hand they'd be prepared to back their tournament life on. If you think they're raising you to try and smack you back into place or just to find out how much you like you're hand, it's amazing how often after a reraise they'll hit that fold button! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm getting quite ****ed off. I'm trying to build the bank by playing the double or nothing games but find myself winning a few then losing a bigger one so I'm back to square one. Any tips on how to play these tournaments? Most of the tossers just try and hold on for 3rd place but it's a tightrope. Those tournaments should get poker banned. So, so, so boring. As you say its a tightrope and becomes a lottery when the blinds come up and it becomes an all-in fest. Are you still on sky poker? the sit and go's on there are pretty horrendous tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Those tournaments should get poker banned. So, so, so boring. As you say its a tightrope and becomes a lottery when the blinds come up and it becomes an all-in fest. Are you still on sky poker? the sit and go's on there are pretty horrendous tbh. Cheers for the tip about sky poker btw- signed up last night and it's like the poker site the poker boom forgot! Graphics are terrible and the number of fish is unbelievable- played for an hour last night and I think it was the easiest I've ever found it to boss a table, either by exploiting my hands for maximum value or by exploiting my "tight" image at the table and reraising the same guy who never folded a hand and would just keep betting (out of 10 times I saw a river card with him, he won twice and both times I'd floated the turn to keep the pot small when I wanted to see if my draws would hit). Put ?15 quid on the site and left ?30 in my account an hour later, having withdrawn ?30 for my troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Cheers for the tip about sky poker btw- signed up last night and it's like the poker site the poker boom forgot! Graphics are terrible and the number of fish is unbelievable- played for an hour last night and I think it was the easiest I've ever found it to boss a table, either by exploiting my hands for maximum value or by exploiting my "tight" image at the table and reraising the same guy who never folded a hand and would just keep betting (out of 10 times I saw a river card with him, he won twice and both times I'd floated the turn to keep the pot small when I wanted to see if my draws would hit). Put ?15 quid on the site and left ?30 in my account an hour later, having withdrawn ?30 for my troubles. What limits were you playing? Sky Poker is the best for cash donks - FACT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In Absentia Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm getting quite ****ed off. I'm trying to build the bank by playing the double or nothing games but find myself winning a few then losing a bigger one so I'm back to square one. Any tips on how to play these tournaments? Most of the tossers just try and hold on for 3rd place but it's a tightrope. What I find quite successful is playing really tight at the beginning then once the blinds go up move into maniac mode. Recently I have been cashing on average 4 out 5 in these SnGs. So doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 What limits were you playing? Sky Poker is the best for cash donks - FACT! Started off on 10/20p then moved up to 15/30p. Normally with ?15 I wouldn't have considered myself bankrolled for that level but sometimes you have to make exceptions and I was willing to write off the ?15 if I was wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 What I find quite successful is playing really tight at the beginning then once the blinds go up move into maniac mode. Recently I have been cashing on average 4 out 5 in these SnGs. So doing well. That's good advice, just try and hit maniac mode before the rest of the table because eventually everyone realises they're going to have to make a stand with anything that is half decent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Started off on 10/20p then moved up to 15/30p. Normally with ?15 I wouldn't have considered myself bankrolled for that level but sometimes you have to make exceptions and I was willing to write off the ?15 if I was wrong! I usually only stick in 50 or 100 and start straight off on the 25/50p games, not rolled for it but doesn't seem to matter at these levels on sky. You don't need to bluff on sky, just value bet your hand to feck and reap the rewards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Cheers for the advice lads. I might play two tables at a time to make it a bit more exciting because you are right, it is boring as feck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In Absentia Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 That's good advice, just try and hit maniac mode before the rest of the table because eventually everyone realises they're going to have to make a stand with anything that is half decent! The thing is i find people rarely make a stand and when they do it is possible to get away as a lot of the time even min raises are enough to take the blinds. Although it can get a bit awkward when you bump into another maniac. It can be differcult to stay out of each others way. Normally I turn around 75/150 level maybe a bit before. Depends on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Odds come into play when you start considering stack sizes. EG: 1/2 nl You have a pair of 3's against a tight aggressive player (UTG) who raised (to $4) before the flop and has position on you (in BB). You know that this player is not going to let you take the pot off him post flop and his raise from UTG suggest a big hand. Your only plan is to hit a set, or get out. Now, knowing that you are about 7.5/1 against to hit your set you must consider 2 things. 1. that there is a minimum of 7x3(21) in your stack and at least the same in his. 2. Take into account any chance that you are not going to get him in for at least the full 21 dollars (say 30% chance) - so stack size has to be about 28 dollars to make it worthwhile calling. If both your stacks are deeper then the +ve benefits of calling grow significantly. With small stacks your 3 dollars can win you about 28 dollars. With 400 dollar stacks the same hand, and the same 3 dollar call could net you 400 bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Had a cheeky wee game on Sky Poker on my lunch break. ?25 won, that'll do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Macaroons Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Thanks, youve really cheered me up Hills seems to have a private section for the proposed game. If its going to be a weekly event, we could keep track of who wins what...and at the end of the year...award a trophy to the KICKBACK POKER CHAMPION 2009 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaka_22 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 On a seriously horrendous run just now in cash poker over the last week, ran into pocket aces when I've had kings three times. Just ran into pocket kings earlier when I had aces, he flopped his set. Had two real sickeners at the Circus cash game over the last two days as well. Monday night, four limpers, I'm in the small blind, pocket jacks. Raise it to 15, folds round to idiot on the button who asks me how much I have and says he'll put me all-in for 120. I insta-call (normally I would think about it but this boy is the biggest donk I know), he shows 3h3s. Flop is 2h 5h 6h, turn 4h for his straight flush! Unreal! Last night, was playing pretty well, started with ?100 and worked my way up to about ?190. Dealt AQ, so raise it up to ?12, 2 callers. Flop is Q Q 7, I'm first to act so just bet straight out with ?20, next to act shoves all-in (he has me covered), I call and he shows QJ, turn J to give him his full house. What a sickener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsmak Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 We used to have a weekly game on Ladbrooks. Was it Tott that organised it? Usually good fun but we struggled to get numbers if I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Hardcastle Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 So i re-installed hills poker. Not a shabby start on 25/50p cash. Let me know of this online game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destruction Derby Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Whats the minimum deposits on these sites? never ever finished in a decent place in tournaments but only started playing this year. i play on either betfair poker or pkr, since not many people are mentioning these 2 it obviously means they are gash so prob tempted to change. does anyone have any recommendation on the best site for beginners where there are quite a few poorer players on low levels or do all the better players enter these tourneys/cash tables to steal money from the not so good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Had a cheeky wee game on Sky Poker on my lunch break. ?25 won, that'll do. We're at the same table just now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scallywag Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Thanks for the advice on the 2/4 rule. I knew there was an easier way to estimate odds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wibble Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Whats the minimum deposits on these sites? never ever finished in a decent place in tournaments but only started playing this year. i play on either betfair poker or pkr, since not many people are mentioning these 2 it obviously means they are gash so prob tempted to change. does anyone have any recommendation on the best site for beginners where there are quite a few poorer players on low levels or do all the better players enter these tourneys/cash tables to steal money from the not so good players. The lower levels is where you have to start, but at the lower levels you will have a problem stealing anyones money because many people are simply calling stations (they will call any bet with any pair ). IE: ie, They have 8,9o - They pair the 8 on a K,A,8 flop - you have nothing, but raised pre-flop, you hit them with a continuation bet as if you have the Ace or even AK. They call, then they call your followup on the turn, then again on the river. You are left wondering how they could call all that money with the 3rd or 4th worst pair on the board. What you have to do at the lower levels is focus on getting as much money as possible in the pot when you get good cards. Bluffing is usually unsuccessful at low levels unless you are targetting a player who you have already observed folding regularly post flop. Bluff with extreme caution. That rule applies in all levels of poker tbh and not following it has been my downfall on many occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Thanks for the advice on the 2/4 rule. I knew there was an easier way to estimate odds. The way I do it is work out what how many cards I can hit, then give each card 2% and multiply by 2 if I'm on the flop (2 streets to go- turn and river) or keep the number if I'm on the turn with only the river card to go. eg. I have a flush draw and open ended straight draw= 13 outs - 52% on the flop, 26% on the river. Also, I've noticed on Bet365 poker, when the cards are turned after an all-in, the odds are given under the usernames, so you can see the actual odds as the cards come, it doesn't help with your pot odds or anything, it just lets you know how bad your bad-beat was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 We used to have a weekly game on Ladbrooks. Was it Tott that organised it? Usually good fun but we struggled to get numbers if I recall. What we could do is get a list of everyone that has posted over, say 5 times on this thread and we send a PM detailing the tournament and password and if anyone else wants a game, they can request a PM. You could possibly have about 15-30 interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 We're at the same table just now... Was it one of the ones i stacked off on? Playing like a donk tonight! Whats your name on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Was it one of the ones i stacked off on? Playing like a donk tonight! Whats your name on it? I've just sat back down on your right hand side- and played my first 2 hands horribly... Edited February 25, 2009 by Andy Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 I've just sat back down on your right hand side- and played my first 2 hands horribly... Stalker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Stalker! Hey, I'm looking for the juicy tables- now, if only Era would sit down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Lol. Simster is a weak min betting idiot Oboajam is a fish. Bluetack can be trapped so easily. Theres some advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Lol. Simster is a weak min betting idiot Oboajam is a fish. Bluetack can be trapped so easily. Theres some advice! Top and Bottom... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Top and Bottom... Had A8 spade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Though my queens were doomed there when he went all in over the top of me. But alas its sky poker and he prob had ** all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Though my queens were doomed there when he went all in over the top of me. But alas its sky poker and he prob had ** all! I had King,Jack suited (which I normally fold UTG) but I'm playing pretty poor tonight and instead I threw a minbet into the pot and had to fold to your raise... Tried taking that pot where he was playing it weak with J,10 but I guess he had me down as an over-aggressive fish! Edited February 25, 2009 by Andy Grant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Blood pressure on the rise again. Simster does my nut in. Absolute idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Blood pressure on the rise again. Simster does my nut in. Absolute idiot. The hand where you had 10,7 and he had Queens- what happened on the flop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Currently 7th out of 76 in Velocity. Finished 4th last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 The hand where you had 10,7 and he had Queens- what happened on the flop? He min bet, I raised small and he re-raised small, I call. Turn ten he checks I bet big. He calls. River Q and I knew it humped me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 He min bet, I raised small and he re-raised small, I call. Turn ten he checks I bet big. He calls. River Q and I knew it humped me. Figured it must have gone something like that... As long as people keeping bringing stacks that are only 20BB deep to the table though, we're laughing. Why do they limit themselves to desperation poker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Figured it must have gone something like that... As long as people keeping bringing stacks that are only 20BB deep to the table though, we're laughing. Why do they limit themselves to desperation poker? I'm havin **** nightmare!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I'm havin **** nightmare!! After a bad start, I'm running pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 26th out of 39, 30 paid, the bubble's approaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Merse Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Extreme3DJ one of the few good players on Sky. Would generally take his bets for what they are/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I've got no idea what Redsleuth's talking about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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