Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

You could end up with minority govt, similar to the first SNP administration at Holyrood.

 

Of course depends on number of seats etc 

 

Biggest issue is getting the budget passed.

 

4 hours ago, Dirty Deeds said:

The voting system was designed to drive government by coalition and consensus.

 

SNP's dominance at the polls and the general trend towards confrontation in all forms of debate has made Holyrood feel more like Westminster than it was designed to.

 

A sustained period of coalition government without a single dominant party would serve Scotland well.

 

Those posts make sense.  The question then (given the likely numbers) is what sort of coalition combination would work.

 

Edited April 4 by Ulysses

[Boof]

4 hours ago, Dirty Deeds said:

The voting system was designed to drive government by coalition and consensus.

 

Yep

 

4 hours ago, Dirty Deeds said:

SNP's dominance at the polls and the general trend towards confrontation in all forms of debate has made Holyrood feel more like Westminster than it was designed to.

 

Yep - unfortunately.

 

4 hours ago, Dirty Deeds said:

A sustained period of coalition government without a single dominant party would serve Scotland well.

 

Which, I believe, would be the case in an independent Scotland.

[JudyJudyJudy]

54 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I have already stated that I'm spoiling my ballot paper by not putting my X in any box and writing none of the above on my ballot paper. 

I would do the same John but it would only help the SNP in my area so my tactical vote is Labour . Hes also a decent guy too 

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Those posts make sense.  The question then (given the likely numbers) is what sort of coalition combination would work.

 

 

This poll/prediction is quite interesting

 

2026 Scottish Parliament Election Polls - Election Polling

 

SNP & Labour tied on 42 seats each, Tories with 23, Lib Dems 12, Greens 10.

 

65 seats needed for a majority.

 

So a coalition with the Tories would get you a majority of one.  But who is going to want that?

 

Coalition with LD's & Greens gives you 64, a minority.

 

Fun times!

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

This poll/prediction is quite interesting

 

2026 Scottish Parliament Election Polls - Election Polling

 

SNP & Labour tied on 42 seats each, Tories with 23, Lib Dems 12, Greens 10.

 

65 seats needed for a majority.

 

So a coalition with the Tories would get you a majority of one.  But who is going to want that?

 

Coalition with LD's & Greens gives you 64, a minority.

 

Fun times!

there's a very long time until the next Scottish Election.

 

(Scottish) Labout are enjoying a huge wave of support on the basis that they aren't the Tories  but by the time the Holyrood Election rolls round they will have had to commit to policies, possibly even a manifesto, and could be into their second year in office by which time it will have become very obvious that they actually are the Tories but with a different rosette. 

 

I'd take those numbers this far out with a generous pinch of salt. 

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

This poll/prediction is quite interesting

 

2026 Scottish Parliament Election Polls - Election Polling

 

SNP & Labour tied on 42 seats each, Tories with 23, Lib Dems 12, Greens 10.

 

65 seats needed for a majority.

 

So a coalition with the Tories would get you a majority of one.  But who is going to want that?

 

Coalition with LD's & Greens gives you 64, a minority.

 

Fun times!

 

That prediction looks familiar.

 

When it comes to the Conservatives, a question I'd throw into the mix is "why not?"

 

If running taxes and public services is your main voting concern, it could be interesting to see if the Scottish Conservatives could cut a coalition deal with the SNP and Liberal Democrats, and how their approach to governing in a mixed set-up like that would compare with how they do business in London. 

 

Conversely, if you were a unionist voter as a priority, you might wonder the same thing but with Labour in the mix rather than the SNP.

 

There's also the old political chestnut about needing time on the Opposition benches. By 2026, the SNP will have been in office for 19 years, and the reality is that maybe they and the voters need a break.  I'd say the same here about Fine Gael (though I'd probably say that anyway).

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I vote for the Greens down south but no way would I vote for them in Scotland.

 

A bigger set of freaks you’ll find nowhere, starting with that ginger wankpiece at the top 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

That prediction looks familiar.

 

When it comes to the Conservatives, a question I'd throw into the mix is "why not?"

 

If running taxes and public services is your main voting concern, it could be interesting to see if the Scottish Conservatives could cut a coalition deal with the SNP and Liberal Democrats, and how their approach to governing in a mixed set-up like that would compare with how they do business in London. 

 

Conversely, if you were a unionist voter as a priority, you might wonder the same thing but with Labour in the mix rather than the SNP.

 

There's also the old political chestnut about needing time on the Opposition benches. By 2026, the SNP will have been in office for 19 years, and the reality is that maybe they and the voters need a break.  I'd say the same here about Fine Gael (though I'd probably say that anyway).

 

Well, Salmond got Tory backing during his first administration without the need for a formal coalition.  But they are so diametrically opposed now, I can't see either side wanting to help the other.

 

Equally, a Labour/Tory deal would be (for Labour) political suicide.  IMO of course.

 

Reason is because the Tories are perceived as toxic.  Labour join with them and the SNP can say Red Tories and it would resonate.  SNP join with them and it's the equivalent of the Ribbentrop/Molotov pact!  

 

I'd also say that to the unionist parties, the SNP is seen as toxic too, that's my perception anyway.

 

Lets say there was a grand unionist coalition (Lab, Con, LD) and it made an arse of it.  Could that lead to a growth for independence?  

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

45 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I vote for the Greens down south but no way would I vote for them in Scotland.

 

A bigger set of freaks you’ll find nowhere, starting with that ginger wankpiece at the top 

Dont hold back 

[TallPaul]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Well, Salmond got Tory backing during his first administration without the need for a formal coalition.  But they are so diametrically opposed now, I can't see either side wanting to help the other.

 

Equally, a Labour/Tory deal would be (for Labour) political suicide.  IMO of course.

 

Reason is because the Tories are perceived as toxic.  Labour join with them and the SNP can say Red Tories and it would resonate.  SNP join with them and it's the equivalent of the Ribbentrop/Molotov pact!  

 

I'd also say that to the unionist parties, the SNP is seen as toxic too, that's my perception anyway.

 

Lets say there was a grand unionist coalition (Lab, Con, LD) and it made an arse of it.  Could that lead to a growth for independence?  

 

 

Hollyrood is essentially a massive toxic waste pile and drain of public. Shut the place I say 

[Boris]

25 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

Hollyrood is essentially a massive toxic waste pile and drain of public. Shut the place I say 

Too far gone now with all sorts of devolution rolled out across the UK. 

Did you vote in the devolution referendum? If so was this always your view or has it changed?

Reason I ask is that due to the SNP dominance I suspect a few, mainly Tory voters, would happily see Holyrood go. I'd put that down to sour grapes tbh, but just my take on it.

[frankblack]

Apologies if already posted.

 

"MSP group seeks transparency on Scottish Government’s international aid funds

The Government’s regular report on contributions to international development has not been published since 2019"

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/msp-group-seeks-transparency-on-scottish-governments-international-aid-funds-4576933

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

 

Reason is because the Tories are perceived as toxic.  Labour join with them and the SNP can say Red Tories and it would resonate.  SNP join with them and it's the equivalent of the Ribbentrop/Molotov pact!  

 

 

 

 

I understand all that, but it begins to look a bit different if we don't insist on viewing Scottish politics through a Westminster-centric lens.

 

If you were a leading Conservative in Scotland, and you had the chance to get into office as a coalition partner, would you negotiate a deal and trade some of your principles for some of someone else's, or would you stick to your "toxic" principles and spend your career in opposition?  If the latter, what's the point?  As someone said once, "your worst day in government is better than your best day in opposition". 

 

And if the Scottish Conservatives were willing to do that, what else would begin to change?

 

PR makes politicians have to think like that.

[TallPaul]

38 minutes ago, Boris said:

Too far gone now with all sorts of devolution rolled out across the UK. 

Did you vote in the devolution referendum? If so was this always your view or has it changed?

Reason I ask is that due to the SNP dominance I suspect a few, mainly Tory voters, would happily see Holyrood go. I'd put that down to sour grapes tbh, but just my take on it.

I was slightly too young to vote in the devolution ref. If it was held again I would say no. I see no benefits to having 2 governments 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I understand all that, but it begins to look a bit different if we don't insist on viewing Scottish politics through a Westminster-centric lens.

 

If you were a leading Conservative in Scotland, and you had the chance to get into office as a coalition partner, would you negotiate a deal and trade some of your principles for some of someone else's, or would you stick to your "toxic" principles and spend your career in opposition?  If the latter, what's the point?  As someone said once, "your worst day in government is better than your best day in opposition". 

 

And if the Scottish Conservatives were willing to do that, what else would begin to change?

 

PR makes politicians have to think like that.

It's not so much the Tories, rather the impact on the party that works with them?

 

A lib dem 2010 effect, sort of?

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

I was slightly too young to vote in the devolution ref. If it was held again I would say no. I see no benefits to having 2 governments 

Cool. That is your right.

[Roxy Hearts]

59 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

I was slightly too young to vote in the devolution ref. If it was held again I would say no. I see no benefits to having 2 governments 

Neither do I, hence my support for independence! 😁

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

I understand all that, but it begins to look a bit different if we don't insist on viewing Scottish politics through a Westminster-centric lens.

 

If you were a leading Conservative in Scotland, and you had the chance to get into office as a coalition partner, would you negotiate a deal and trade some of your principles for some of someone else's, or would you stick to your "toxic" principles and spend your career in opposition?  If the latter, what's the point?  As someone said once, "your worst day in government is better than your best day in opposition". 

 

And if the Scottish Conservatives were willing to do that, what else would begin to change?

 

PR makes politicians have to think like that.

A lot of that would make more sense if the 'Scottish' conservatives were actually a stand alone party and not just a branch office of the rabble in Westminster being dictated policy by Conservative CHQ. 

Same goes for 'Scottish' Labour

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 hours ago, Boris said:

 

It would, however it takes two to tango.

 

The SNP dominance is down to the electorate voting for it.  The complete deflation of the Labour Party in Scotland hasn't helped, in that the Tories then became the opposition and due to their position on independence being as strong as the SNPs on theirs, any chances of co-operative working was shot.

 

With Labour resurgent, I would hope that they AND the SNP realise that there is much that they have in common policy wise.  I will not hold my breath though.

Indeed and just as importantly we could and should have an opportunity to reset the relationship between the respective governments. I expect Starmer to look beyond political differences and be prepared work with Holyrood.  That gives the SNP an opportunity to demonstrate they can be grown ups and show they have more in the locker than grievance and anti Tory rhetoric.  Big test on both sides. 

[manaliveits105]

3 hours ago, TallPaul said:

Hollyrood is essentially a massive toxic waste pile and drain of public. Shut the place I say 

Fair comment 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

It's not so much the Tories, rather the impact on the party that works with them?

 

A lib dem 2010 effect, sort of?

 

Possibly. We see it with coalitions of different parties all the time.  The "dominant ethos" is economically right but socially liberal, but the way that operates has varied depending on which parties are in coalition. 

[Boris]

45 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Indeed and just as importantly we could and should have an opportunity to reset the relationship between the respective governments. I expect Starmer to look beyond political differences and be prepared work with Holyrood.  That gives the SNP an opportunity to demonstrate they can be grown ups and show they have more in the locker than grievance and anti Tory rhetoric.  Big test on both sides. 

Agree. From a UK perspective, harmony with all the devolved administrations is much needed.

[Malinga the Swinga]

9 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Would anyone trust the lib-dems after what they sold for a title and a ministerial car? 

People probably want better politics, which I had hoped Holyrood would bring in. But then, you look at political discourse online, or even here to an extent and it's clear that the people get what they deserve. 

I have probably no one to vote for going forward. 

Given your postings on other threads, that's probably a good thing.

[Malinga the Swinga]

3 hours ago, TallPaul said:

Hollyrood is essentially a massive toxic waste pile and drain of public. Shut the place I say 

Would be the best policy anyone could come up with. Total and utter waste of money.

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Possibly. We see it with coalitions of different parties all the time.  The "dominant ethos" is economically right but socially liberal, but the way that operates has varied depending on which parties are in coalition. 

The socially liberal bit is a bit of an Achilles heel for the Tories over here and, TBF, in the UK generally as they appear to embrace the trumpian culture war tactics. IMO.

But in Scottish terms, the Tories are still a toxic brand, so it would take a seismic shift to change that, again imo.

That said, I could quite well be wrong, but given their slump in polling I'd say their support is made up of their core support and uber-unionists/right wing fringe.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Would be the best policy anyone could come up with. Total and utter waste of money.

Why is it a total and utter waste of money?

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

Agree. From a UK perspective, harmony with all the devolved administrations is much needed.

It really isn't rocket science. Despite their differences after the SNP formed a government up here  both administrations seemed to rub along ok and the outcome of the referendum presented an opportunity to put the them and us stuff behind them but with the rise of the ERG and Brexit the SNP couldn't resist and we are where we are now with the Smurfs and Yoons pish played out by the folk who are supposed to be running the country. 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

It really isn't rocket science. Despite their differences after the SNP formed a government up here  both administrations seemed to rub along ok and the outcome of the referendum presented an opportunity to put the them and us stuff behind them but with the rise of the ERG and Brexit the SNP couldn't resist and we are where we are now with the Smurfs and Yoons pish played out by the folk who are supposed to be running the country. 

I think that's a really good point. The Tory lurch even further to the right, beholden to the "swivel eyed loons", seems to go unmentioned. Truss FFS!

The whole country is paralysed by this existential Tory psychodrama.

And a Scottish Tory party unable or unwilling to call it out.

Or maybe they don't really care either?

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Would be the best policy anyone could come up with. Total and utter waste of money.

I don't trust Westminster with Scottish Water, SNHS, transport....

 

They've continually proven their incompetence by selling state assets and us paying the price. Look at the English and the state of their water and bills! Devolution is at least a barrier apart from the unionist side! 

 

How on earth does any self respecting Scot think that the Westminster regime is better than us partly governing ourselves, it's beyond stupidity!

[Ulysses]

22 minutes ago, Boris said:

The socially liberal bit is a bit of an Achilles heel for the Tories over here 

 

It doesn't have to be.  It wasn't on Cameron's watch, just as it often isn't in the case of Christian Democrat parties in Europe.  I probably wouldn't have voted for Cameron, but I'd have considered the possibility.  I probably would have voted for Merkel's politics at least once.

[Ulysses]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

I think that's a really good point. The Tory lurch even further to the right, beholden to the "swivel eyed loons", seems to go unmentioned. Truss FFS!

The whole country is paralysed by this existential Tory psychodrama.

And a Scottish Tory party unable or unwilling to call it out.

Or maybe they don't really care either?

 

I suspect Scottish Conservativism would be a different (and probably more sensible) thing.

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I suspect Scottish Conservativism would be a different (and probably more sensible) thing.

If it wanted to be. But does it?

[Ulysses]

Just now, Boris said:

If it wanted to be. But does it?

 

I suppose the answer is that it would be...

 

...in an independent Scotland. 

[Boris]

13 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

It doesn't have to be.  It wasn't on Cameron's watch, just as it often isn't in the case of Christian Democrat parties in Europe.  I probably wouldn't have voted for Cameron, but I'd have considered the possibility.  I probably would have voted for Merkel's politics at least once.

There is where we differ, and I'll hold my hand up to my own prejudices, but "never vote Tory" has kind of been ingrained in me.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

I suppose the answer is that it would be...

 

...in an independent Scotland. 

Well, I think you're right. Because for the Scottish Tories to do such a thing, instantly admits there is a difference between parts of the union and one size doesn't fit all.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

33 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I suspect Scottish Conservativism would be a different (and probably more sensible) thing.

It probably would be. Proper Scottish Tories like Alec Douglas Home, George Younger, Rifkind, Laing Douglas Hamilton and even David McLetchie, Annabel Goldie and Lady Roof tended to come across very differently from their London counterparts. 

Even the Michael Forsyth type Thatcherites seemed different if not preferable.

[Ulysses]

26 minutes ago, Boris said:

Well, I think you're right. Because for the Scottish Tories to do such a thing, instantly admits there is a difference between parts of the union and one size doesn't fit all.

 

 

Something we already know to be true.

[luckydug]

47 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I don't trust Westminster with Scottish Water, SNHS, transport....

 

They've continually proven their incompetence by selling state assets and us paying the price. Look at the English and the state of their water and bills! Devolution is at least a barrier apart from the unionist side! 

 

How on earth does any self respecting Scot think that the Westminster regime is better than us partly governing ourselves, it's beyond stupidity!

England is the land of milk and honey don't you know. Its only Scotland that has problems with NHS waiting lists and crime.

We should let Westminster rule every aspect of our life just like it used to be in the good old days of Thatcher and the poll tax.

After all the incumbent Tory government are doing a cracking good job down there. Look what we are missing.

 

[jack D and coke]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

Reason I ask is that due to the SNP dominance I suspect a few, mainly Tory voters, would happily see Holyrood go. I'd put that down to sour grapes tbh, but just my take on it.

Course it is  

The people here don’t vote the way I like shut it doon😭

Embarrassing chat. 

[Roxy Hearts]

7 hours ago, luckydug said:

England is the land of milk and honey don't you know. Its only Scotland that has problems with NHS waiting lists and crime.

We should let Westminster rule every aspect of our life just like it used to be in the good old days of Thatcher and the poll tax.

After all the incumbent Tory government are doing a cracking good job down there. Look what we are missing.

 

Yep! As I said "stupidity". It's all about, read the headlines, then attack. Hypocrisy beyond hypocrisy. If it wasn't for the media, their  poodles and the establishment creating the division instead of some balance we would all be a little wiser!

[The Mighty Thor]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

I suspect Scottish Conservativism would be a different (and probably more sensible) thing.

Scotland is generally a more socially conservative country and whoever is able to tap into that would most likely do well. 

 

The problem is that neither of the brach office parties have the scope to do that, they are essentially driven and fundementally controlled by their central offices. Significant divergence in policy is verboten. 

 

Mind you Douglas Ross appears to hold more contradictory views concurrently than our most prolific of posters could only aspire to. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

She’s sank that low she’s signing whisky bottles . My how the might have fallen 😂😂😂😂 ps it’s not a cult 

[manaliveits105]

They can't even spell whisky 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

11 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

She’s sank that low she’s signing whisky bottles . My how the might have fallen 😂😂😂😂 ps it’s not a cult 

 

imagine that was your maw. You’d be dying of embarrassment and dialing up a Swiss clinic 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

They can't even spell whisky 

😂

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It’s no even malt.

 

Shan as feck

 

Which, tbf, should be Sturgeon’s slogan

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Scotland is generally a more socially conservative country and whoever is able to tap into that would most likely do well. 

 

 

I'd say there's a strong streak of fiscal conservatism as well. I'm not convinced that the "centre line" of Scottish politics is any more to the left than anywhere else in Europe. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'd say there's a strong streak of fiscal conservatism as well. I'm not convinced that the "centre line" of Scottish politics is any more to the left than anywhere else in Europe. 

It's probably not more to the left as such but it is very far to the left of the current Westminster government and indeed the direction of travel of the currenht ruling party.

 

Fiscal conservatism from dour Scots? 😂

[JDK2020]

31 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

She’s sank that low she’s signing whisky bottles . My how the might have fallen 😂😂😂😂 ps it’s not a cult 

 

Susan striving to sound Scoattish as feck then calls is "whiskey".

That about sums these dolts up.

[JDK2020]

20 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

imagine that was your maw. You’d be dying of embarrassment and dialing up a Swiss clinic 

 

😁