Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[TheOak88]

59 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Remaining a part of the UK has left you poorer. Fact. 

Poorer than what though?

 

The 2014 referendum was a binary choice, go one way or the other. Not disagreeing that people have got poorer remaining in the UK, but the only sensible comparison is, would we have been wealthier if we had gone the other way in 2014, and become independent. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

54 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Far too stupid, Roxy. Take the average IQ of kickback posters as a representative example.

TBF the average IQ level jumps up a bit on here when you log off...

 

[TallPaul]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm not making things that didn't happen up to try to justify the current shit show. 

 

What did actually happen was that people voted to remain part of the UK because the only way we could remain wealthy or indeed stay part of Europe was to vote No to independence. 

 

So far that's left Scotland and her citizens measurably poorer and no longer able to freely travel, live or work in Europe.

 

Those things did happen. 

 

No amount of made up bullshit about currency or heat pumps changes it.

 

Remaining a part of the UK has left you poorer. Fact. 

The entire world is poorer than a few years ago. Can you explain the economic case for indy and how this would have made us better off?

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

Poorer than what though?

 

The 2014 referendum was a binary choice, go one way or the other. Not disagreeing that people have got poorer remaining in the UK, but the only sensible comparison is, would we have been wealthier if we had gone the other way in 2014, and become independent. 

Poorer than you were in 2014

 

The statement was that becoming independent in 2014 would have made us all poorer.

The actual fact is that remaining in the UK has in real terms left you poorer than you were in 2014. That accelerated after the people that lied to you in 2014 lied to you again in 2016 and here we are. 

[The Mighty Thor]

5 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

The entire world is poorer than a few years ago. Can you explain the economic case for indy and how this would have made us better off?

We've been here before.

 

The UK is disproportionately worse off by every measure.

 

Could you put the economic case up from 2014 for the union and then 2016 for exiting the EU? Once you've found those pop up an economic forecast from either of the main unionist parties for the next 5 years 

 

You've had the Indy white paper. I've posted links to you before. I can't read or understand it for you. 

 

[TheOak88]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Poorer than you were in 2014

 

The statement was that becoming independent in 2014 would have made us all poorer.

The actual fact is that remaining in the UK has in real terms left you poorer than you were in 2014. That accelerated after the people that lied to you in 2014 lied to you again in 2016 and here we are. 

That argument doesn’t carry any weight though. There was no option on the 2014 ballot paper to stop time and live in 2014 forever. The option was either stay in UK or become independent.
 

As previous post, I agree we are poorer than in 2014. However, the only way to make a credible argument that “No” was the wrong choice in 2014, would be to make an argument that an independent Scotland would be wealthier by now than the current situation we are in. I note that a lot of “Yes” voters, shy away from making that argument.  

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

That argument doesn’t carry any weight though. There was no option on the 2014 ballot paper to stop time and live in 2014 forever. The option was either stay in UK or become independent.
 

As previous post, I agree we are poorer than in 2014. However, the only way to make a credible argument that “No” was the wrong choice in 2014, would be to make an argument that an independent Scotland would be wealthier by now than the current situation we are in. I note that a lot of “Yes” voters, shy away from making that argument.  

I'm not suggesting there was a stop time option.

 

What there was is a white paper with an economic case which was voted down by the electorate. 

Neither you nor I can prove one way or the other if it would have worked. 

 

What we can prove is that remaining in the union has been economically damaging and will continue to be so under the next WM govt. 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm not suggesting there was a stop time option.

 

What there was is a white paper with an economic case which was voted down by the electorate. 

Neither you nor I can prove one way or the other if it would have worked. 

 

What we can prove is that remaining in the union has been economically damaging and will continue to be so under the next WM govt. 

 

The economic case in that white paper was that oil would sustain the economy.  The oil price then crashed weeks later so that paper was proven horseshit.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

The economic case in that white paper was that oil would sustain the economy.  The oil price then crashed weeks later so that paper was proven horseshit.

We've covered this to death Frank.

 

Oil money has kept the UK lights on for 50 years. It will continue to do so despite what unionist slavers like Ian Wood say

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

We've covered this to death Frank.

 

Oil money has kept the UK lights on for 50 years. It will continue to do so despite what unionist slavers like Ian Wood say

 

But the SNP have tried to block hew development work so how does your argument stack up?

 

Its not an asset if you don't use it.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

But the SNP have tried to block hew development work so how does your argument stack up?

 

Its not an asset if you don't use it.

Do you have short term memory problems? We've done this to death.

 

oil is still pumping billions into the UK economy. It will continue to do so For a long long time to come.

 

The question you should be asking is where has all that money, trillions of pounds, gone?

[il Duce McTarkin]

42 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

TBF the average IQ level jumps up a bit on here when you log off...

 

 

I'll try and pump Mrs von Carstein more often then.

[henrysmithsgloves]

3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

needs some punctuation imo

😳🤣

[Gizmo]

24 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

This is about the reality of the spiralling cost of staying in the union (which is well known now, after 8 years of brexit) and the hysteria of your "what ifs". 

Talk about cake and eat it from the unionists. 

Scotland remains in the Union, is dragged into a Brexit we never voted for and continues to suffer the consequences of the utterly incompetent mismanagement of the EU exit. 

That is then used to say, see, if you leave it will be exactly like this. 

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

 

Remaining a part of the UK has left you poorer. Fact. 

Speak for yourself. I'm not poorer, I've never been better off. Fact.

I'm not the only one. Fact.

Edited April 6 by Malinga the Swinga

[periodictabledancer]

6 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Talk about cake and eat it from the unionists. 

Scotland remains in the Union, is dragged into a Brexit we never voted for and continues to suffer the consequences of the utterly incompetent mismanagement of the EU exit. 

That is then used to say, see, if you leave it will be exactly like this. 

 

I love the unionist view that the current set up (crashing currency & rising cost of living due to poor political choices within the union) is less bad than their own perpetual scaremongering and "what if".

No wonder they never want to talk about the benefits of being in the union. It's a hard sell for them. 

[periodictabledancer]

30 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

But the SNP have tried to block hew development work so how does your argument stack up?

 

Its not an asset if you don't use it.

Oil is a reserved matter. Right ?

 

[frankblack]

27 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Do you have short term memory problems? We've done this to death.

 

No.  You just didn't like the truth.

 

27 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

oil is still pumping billions into the UK economy. It will continue to do so For a long long time to come.

 

The question you should be asking is where has all that money, trillions of pounds, gone?

 

Historical oil is gone.  Not coming back.  Not worth debating.

 

This is about future oil revenues.  The SNP don't want any.

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

Oil is a reserved matter. Right ?

 

 

Irrelevant.  Read the context of what you replied to.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

Says a man whose party's MPs spend half their time on Grindr or watching porn in the HoP.

Whats wrong with people being on grinder ? 

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

No.  You just didn't like the truth.

 

 

Historical oil is gone.  Not coming back.  Not worth debating.

 

This is about future oil revenues.  The SNP don't want any.

The truth. 

 

The truth is that Thatcher and subsequent PMs have spunked a golden egg that should have the UK one of the most advanced economies in the world. Instead we're as tin pot as it comes.

 

The SNP don't want any oil revenue?

Two posts ago they were basing their white paper on it.

 

To coin a Frankism, you're all over the place.

[periodictabledancer]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Irrelevant.  Read the context of what you replied to.

It's completely relevant.

SNP have powers to stop oil - or they don't. They don't.

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

This is about future oil revenues.  The SNP don't want any.

Complete bullshit - read their post indy proposals and get back to us with the facts.

Cheers.

Edited April 6 by periodictabledancer

[Cranston]

5 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The truth. 

 

The truth is that Thatcher and subsequent PMs have spunked a golden egg that should have the UK one of the most advanced economies in the world. Instead we're as tin pot as it comes.

 

The SNP don't want any oil revenue?

Two posts ago they were basing their white paper on it.

 

To coin a Frankism, you're all over the place.

Billions have been spunked on devolution. Green agendas, and ripping the heart from small businesses, and deliberate anti car polices. We need common sense Snp politicians to tear themselves away from the Greens and their anti business stone age blinkers.

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, periodictabledancer said:

Complete bullshit - read their post indy proposals and get back to us with the facts.

Cheers.

 

Oh dear.  You are asking me to research fiction?

[il Duce McTarkin]

27 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Speak for yourself. I'm not poorer, I've never been better off. Fact.

I'm not the only one. Fact.

 

Fact.

 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

No.  Ask the Greens, who have them by the knackers.

Yuck 🤮 no thanks 

[JudyJudyJudy]

29 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Speak for yourself. I'm not poorer, I've never been better off. Fact.

I'm not the only one. Fact.

👍👍they want to perpetuate the myth we’re all skint in Scotland . Suits their loser mentality . 

[periodictabledancer]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Oh dear.  You are asking me to research fiction?

Stop behaving like a child .

Happy to see you quote the SNP post indy energy strategy (that says they dont wany "any" oil revenues) rather than the infantile stuff you've put up so far. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Cranston said:

Billions have been spunked on devolution. Green agendas, and ripping the heart from small businesses, and deliberate anti car polices. We need common sense Snp politicians to tear themselves away from the Greens and their anti business stone age blinkers.

 

Lets not forget they with the Greens were going to devalue our properties if we don't replace our gas boilers with £20k heat pumps?  Clowns and thieves.  You would have to be a serious idiot as a home owner to vote for these jokers.

[periodictabledancer]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Lets not forget they with the Greens were going to devalue our properties if we don't replace our gas boilers with £20k heat pumps?  Clowns and thieves.  You would have to be a serious idiot as a home owner to vote for these jokers.

How much does it cost to install a heat pump in the UK?

 

 

 

Air source heat pumps cost anywhere between £2,400 – £14,050 to install. The annual running costs of an air source heat pump range from £685 to £1,550 and depend on the size of your home and your household's energy needs.

[Cranston]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Lets not forget they with the Greens were going to devalue our properties if we don't replace our gas boilers with £20k heat pumps?  Clowns and thieves.  You would have to be a serious idiot as a home owner to vote for these jokers.

Totally agree. While I'm not against Scottish Independence per say, I've no faith in the current Snp Greens coalition, that has been utterly disastrous for Scotland, and has turned hundreds of thousands against independence, back to voting for what is a useless labour party. Its beyond belief how manacle Scottish politics has become, a total embarrassment. 

[TallPaul]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm not suggesting there was a stop time option.

 

What there was is a white paper with an economic case which was voted down by the electorate. 

Neither you nor I can prove one way or the other if it would have worked. 

 

What we can prove is that remaining in the union has been economically damaging and will continue to be so under the next WM govt. 

Can you explain what aspects of leaving the UK back in 2014 would have made our current economic situation better?

[Gizmo]

 

35 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The truth. 

 

The truth is that Thatcher and subsequent PMs have spunked a golden egg that should have the UK one of the most advanced economies in the world. Instead we're as tin pot as it comes.

 

The SNP don't want any oil revenue?

Two posts ago they were basing their white paper on it.

 

To coin a Frankism, you're all over the place.

It's a real regret that we didn't use the oil money in a better way. When you look at Norway, or the infrastructure some of the Middle Eastern countries are building with their amassed wealth, the only conclusion is that the Tories spunked it all away due to an absolute poverty of imagination or a jam today viewpoint. For a rich country, the money certainly isn't being shared around to lift the floor up or being properly spent on capital infrastructure investments, they are just raising the ceiling for the few. 

We deserve far better politicians - those who did waste the oil dividend back then were ostensibly better than the current grifters. 😮 

 

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

 

It's a real regret that we didn't use the oil money in a better way. When you look at Norway, or the infrastructure some of the Middle Eastern countries are building with their amassed wealth, the only conclusion is that the Tories spunked it all away due to an absolute poverty of imagination or a jam today viewpoint. For a rich country, the money certainly isn't being shared around to lift the floor up or being properly spent on capital infrastructure investments, they are just raising the ceiling for the few. 

We deserve far better politicians - those who did waste the oil dividend back then were ostensibly better than the current grifters. 😮 

 

 

That money is gone.  No point greeting about it.

 

Under the SNP it might not have covered the delays in Ferry builds.

[frankblack]

13 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

Can you explain what aspects of leaving the UK back in 2014 would have made our current economic situation better?

 

 

We would have left the EU earlier under the SNP.

Edited April 6 by frankblack

[Cranston]

6 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

 

It's a real regret that we didn't use the oil money in a better way. When you look at Norway, or the infrastructure some of the Middle Eastern countries are building with their amassed wealth, the only conclusion is that the Tories spunked it all away due to an absolute poverty of imagination or a jam today viewpoint. For a rich country, the money certainly isn't being shared around to lift the floor up or being properly spent on capital infrastructure investments, they are just raising the ceiling for the few. 

We deserve far better politicians - those who did waste the oil dividend back then were ostensibly better than the current grifters. 😮 

 

We certainly do deserve better politicians. Ones that would be pro business, pro car, pro oli and anti green agenda. 

[The Mighty Thor]

 

11 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

15 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

Can you explain what aspects of leaving the UK back in 2014 would have made our current economic situation better?

 

No one can. We didn't leave. 

 

It's just the same as you being unable to provide me with an economic case for remaining innthe UK or exiting the EU. 

 

All we can prove categorically is what happened after both those events.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That money is gone.  No point greeting about it.

 

Under the SNP it might not have covered the delays in Ferry builds.

You're still peddling the Schrodinger's Oil money routine. 

It doesn't matter when it's being spunked by Tories and yet doesn't exist when it's to be spent by the SNP.

[JudyJudyJudy]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That money is gone.  No point greeting about it.

 

Under the SNP it might not have covered the delays in Ferry builds.

Blame , tears and snotters and living in the past . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

I used to wonder, at what age does a person think 'the Daily Express/ Mail speaks for me'.

 

How gradually does it happen?

 

FWIW, I'm somewhere between the Morning Star, Private Eye and Class War.

 

[frankblack]

48 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You're still peddling the Schrodinger's Oil money routine. 

It doesn't matter when it's being spunked by Tories and yet doesn't exist when it's to be spent by the SNP.

 

Nope.  That wasn't what I posted.

 

Do the SNP want to explore new oil developments or don't they? YES or NO. Your view seems to contradict the official line.

[Cranston]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You're still peddling the Schrodinger's Oil money routine. 

It doesn't matter when it's being spunked by Tories and yet doesn't exist when it's to be spent by the SNP.

This blame game garbage will never win independence. Neither will the destruction causing Green coalition. Are you Labour in disguise? 

[periodictabledancer]

31 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Nope.  That wasn't what I posted.

 

Do the SNP want to explore new oil developments or don't they? YES or NO. Your view seems to contradict the official line.

What is the SNP position on oil , post independence ? 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

Nope.  That wasn't what I posted.

 

Do the SNP want to explore new oil developments or don't they? YES or NO. Your view seems to contradict the official line.

Frank you're all over the place.

 

First the Indy policy was based on oil but they was 'blown apart within weeks' but you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that oil has funded the UK for 50 years regardless of the price of crude per barrel. 

Next you pipe up with the no new oil licenses, casually forgetting that's no NEW licenses and not a stop of all oil. 

Then it's forget about all the Oil money cos that's gone likesy.

 

That's a consistency of view would have the screechbot purring. 

[The Mighty Thor]

41 minutes ago, Cranston said:

This blame game garbage will never win independence. Neither will the destruction causing Green coalition. Are you Labour in disguise? 

I'm not even sure you know what that is supposed to mean. 

[Cranston]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm not even sure you know what that is supposed to mean. 

What are you confused about?

[The Mighty Thor]

2 minutes ago, Cranston said:

What are you confused about?

The point you're trying to make. 

 

 

[Cranston]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

The point you're trying to make. 

 

 

Which one?

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Cranston said:

Which one?