Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[JamboX2]

Sectarianism and Drink are Scotlands biggest problems and are invisible to all sides in this debate.

 

Arguably the failure on them has been systemic through devolution and before. Hard to see why independence will help mend that

[TheMaganator]

An interesting new piece on the BT website that is worth a read.

 

It's basically a series of experts commenting on the White Paper.

 

http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/white-paper-the-experts-verdict

 

[Boris]

An interesting new piece on the BT website that is worth a read.

 

It's basically a series of experts commenting on the White Paper.

 

http://bettertogethe...experts-verdict

 

And, just as any YES argument cannot be proven, there are lots of ifs.

 

For example, taxation. It may well rise in an independent Scotland, but just as equally it could rise in the UK!

[TheMaganator]

Money saving expert are doing an independence poll:

 

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/poll/02-12-2013/should-scotland-be-an-independant-country

 

Unusual voting patterns, apparently.

 

People have asked before why Panelbase & other online polling can't be taken seriously - here's part of your answer. Constant social media campaigns to influence the vote from the Yes camp.

 

Did Salmond not refer to online 'wizardry' to help win this campaign?

[Patrick Bateman]

I see the knives are coming out for Darling, according to the Financial Times. He's been described as a 'dreary figurehead' and it's hard to argue against that, given that better together has almost exclusively been Project Woe. http://archive.is/usO8N

 

Maybe they'll parachute Gove in to replace him? That would be an interesting development.

 

[TheMaganator]

I see the knives are coming out for Darling, according to the Financial Times. He's been described as a 'dreary figurehead' and it's hard to argue against that, given that better together has almost exclusively been Project Woe. http://archive.is/usO8N

 

Maybe they'll parachute Gove in to replace him? That would be an interesting development.

 

Haha. God help us if they bring in Gove.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing Brown getting his hands dirty in this - still well respected by many up here (I don't include the SNP in the 'many' btw)

[number-16]

Money saving expert are doing an independence poll:

 

http://www.moneysavi...pendant-country

 

Unusual voting patterns, apparently.

 

People have asked before why Panelbase & other online polling can't be taken seriously - here's part of your answer. Constant social media campaigns to influence the vote from the Yes camp.

 

Did Salmond not refer to online 'wizardry' to help win this campaign?

 

I saw a Tory tweeting about the poll, encouraging people to vote no. It needn't necessarily have been a campaign to vote yes, just greater coverage would swing it as there seems to be a greater number of people using social media that support independence.

[Patrick Bateman]

Haha. God help us if they bring in Gove.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing Brown getting his hands dirty in this - still well respected by many up here (I don't include the SNP in the 'many' btw)

 

I'm quite content for Darling to stay and remind us that he 'saved' RBS by using our tax money to underpin their unsustainable/criminal business model. I'd also be happy for Brown to be involved, he's another dreary, discredited fossil himself. I suspect he'll be too busy cashing in on his premiership though.

 

I've said this before, I want as many debates and as many politicians to be involved as possible, from both sides. The more people think about this and engage with it, the better.

[Pans Jambo]

 

Haha. God help us if they bring in Gove.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing Brown getting his hands dirty in this - still well respected by many up here (I don't include the SNP in the 'many' btw)

Sorry but you said Brown and respect in the same sentence!

 

That's the baw burst!!!

Edited December 4, 2013 by Pans Jambo

[flecktimus]

I see the knives are coming out for Darling, according to the Financial Times. He's been described as a 'dreary figurehead' and it's hard to argue against that, given that better together has almost exclusively been Project Woe. http://archive.is/usO8N

 

Maybe they'll parachute Gove in to replace him? That would be an interesting development.

 

I liked this bit

Mr Carmichael was deemed by many commentators to have received a rhetorical drubbing by Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland?s deputy first minister, in a television debate last week.

?This gruesome spectacle was only beamed into Scottish households ? a shame, because David Cameron really ought to have seen it. It would have shown just how much trouble the Union is in,? Fraser Nelson, editor of the Spectator wrote in the Sunday Telegraph.

[JamboX2]

 

Haha. God help us if they bring in Gove.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing Brown getting his hands dirty in this - still well respected by many up here (I don't include the SNP in the 'many' btw)

 

Brown is the best choice to debate Salmond. And if runours are to believed about Miliband wary of Balls for the long run and Darling the replacement then Brown is ideal to step up.

 

Too many ifs and buts on that though.

[Patrick Bateman]

Gordon Brown, the man who proclaimed the end of boom and bust, supported the Iraq war, sold off the UK's gold reserves, oversaw the growing inequality, failed to control the rampant financial services sector and whose best days are well behind him. Yup, I'd say he's the perfect man to represent the union.

[number-16]

Brown is the best choice to debate Salmond. And if runours are to believed about Miliband wary of Balls for the long run and Darling the replacement then Brown is ideal to step up.

 

Too many ifs and buts on that though.

 

The problem (as far as heading up the Better Together campaign, not generally a problem) is Brown's dislike of the Tories. I recall he's only campaigned with United with Labour as he's refused to share a stage with the Conservatives.

 

He'd certainly be a boost for the campaign but I doubt he'd keep as quiet on the current UK Government as Darling has been, and it probably wouldn't be worth the upheaval if he was going to be. I also doubt if some of the Conservative and Liberal donors would be as happy to fund a passionate Brown as they would the 'comatose' Darling, which may also play into the decision.

 

Brown, Kennedy and Harper would probably be the three best choices for running the Better Together campaign but how willing would they be to defend the actions of the current and past Tory and Tory-led governments as they will have to to some extent.

[2NaFish]

Brown is the best choice to debate Salmond.

 

If Brown was to take a leading position within the No camp then you it'd be all over bar the shouting. As it stands Yes will run it close, but that's only up against absolute dross and nothing resembling a heavyweight.

[number-16]

I'm just realising that Cllr Alex Lunn defecting from Labour to the SNP so that he can campaign for independence hasn't been mentioned on here yet. Especially given that he's an Edinburgh councillor.

 

Interesting that he felt the need to leave the party for just that one issue. I'm not sure whether there's a contrast with Robin Harper and the Greens here or not.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm just realising that Cllr Alex Lunn defecting from Labour to the SNP so that he can campaign for independence hasn't been mentioned on here yet. Especially given that he's an Edinburgh councillor.

 

Interesting that he felt the need to leave the party for just that one issue. I'm not sure whether there's a contrast with Robin Harper and the Greens here or not.

 

He isn't the first Labour man to declare support for Yes, Charles Gray and Alex Mosson have gone before him. I also suspect Malcolm Chissholm and Henry McLeish could declare support for independence too. I think a number of Labour members will have trouble with claiming that being vulnerable and subjected to Governments that Scotland didn't elect is a worthy price to vote No. Ultimately, traditional Labour and progressive values have been demonstrably more likely to be upheld in Scotland than the rest of the UK, despite earlier saying that Scotland is, actually, conservative.

[JamboInSouthsea]

I'm quite content for Darling to stay and remind us that he 'saved' RBS by using our tax money to underpin their unsustainable/criminal business model. I'd also be happy for Brown to be involved, he's another dreary, discredited fossil himself. I suspect he'll be too busy cashing in on his premiership though.

 

I've said this before, I want as many debates and as many politicians to be involved as possible, from both sides. The more people think about this and engage with it, the better.

 

I agree with this but would it not also be good to have some live debates with say professional/academic economists and business leaders too from either side...doubt it will happen but would be interesting.

[number-16]

He isn't the first Labour man to declare support for Yes, Charles Gray and Alex Mosson have gone before him. I also suspect Malcolm Chissholm and Henry McLeish could declare support for independence too. I think a number of Labour members will have trouble with claiming that being vulnerable and subjected to Governments that Scotland didn't elect is a worthy price to vote No. Ultimately, traditional Labour and progressive values have been demonstrably more likely to be upheld in Scotland than the rest of the UK, despite earlier saying that Scotland is, actually, conservative.

 

But neither Sir Charles or Mosson held any position in Labour nowadays. When you look at those that currently do hold an office, none have come out to back independence. Mary Lockhart resigned her post and now Lunn has resigned from the party.

 

It may just be the case that people are resigning on the principle of going against the party on a major issue. I hope that is the case rather than anything else.

[Patrick Bateman]

I agree with this but would it not also be good to have some live debates with say professional/academic economists and business leaders too from either side...doubt it will happen but would be interesting.

 

Aye, Kiltr have had interesting debates with creative types too. They had one with Stuart Braithwaite and Mark Hogarth that was pretty interesting, so hopefully more will follow. The more debate, from as wide a variety of people as possible, the better. Strangely, only those on the no side want to stifle or prevent debate, be it through hiding Cameron or censoring/banning folk left, right and centre on social media. That's pretty telling.

[Templeton Peck]

You forget that Brown, in his own words, is an ex-politician. This would stand up well in any debate so long as he still takes a wage and expenses from Westminster.

[Patrick Bateman]

Wings Over Scotland proves, once again, that it contributes greatly to the independence debate with this rediscovery... http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-things-change/

 

Quote Jack Straw circa 2006;

 

Historically, England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, among others things, of amplifying England?s power worldwide. And the reverse would certainly be true.

 

:omg!:

 

Aye, Better Together - When, for whom, and for what purpose?

[Alba gu Brath]

Wings Over Scotland proves, once again, that it contributes greatly to the independence debate with this rediscovery... http://wingsoverscot...-things-change/

 

Quote Jack Straw circa 2006;

 

Historically, England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, among others things, of amplifying England?s power worldwide. And the reverse would certainly be true.

 

:omg!:

 

Aye, Better Together - When, for whom, and for what purpose?

 

Saw this. A sare truth.

 

?The English are potentially very aggressive, very violent and of course we have used this propensity to violence to subjugate Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Then we used it in Europe and with our empire. You have within the UK three small nations under the cosh of the English.?

 

Jack Straw: English MPs control all the money which Scotland receives ? is that ?fair?? England constitutes 85% of the UK?s population and 87% of its wealth. It was English MPs who agreed to devolve some powers to Scotland in a Westminster Act of Parliament; but year by year controls over public spending levels for all of the UK continue to be exercised by Westminster. And power devolved is power retained, not ceded.?

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-things-change/

[Alba gu Brath]

What about CfE?

 

A good idea, based on Nordic, especially Finnish models of education. It was floated here by the Labour/Lib Dem coalition and carried on by the current SNP.

 

And, it's great. My kids enjoy their education and I support this method too. I do understand that there's been some problems in secondary schools but I'm sure that these teething problems will be ironed out. Teaching children to be inventive, confident and to have an enquiring attitude to life is good in my book. Positives attitudes to the environment, languages, science and health are just as important as good test results in maths or reading. Btw - when was the last time you actually saw the CfE in action in a real Scottish school?

[jambos are go!]

Arguably the failure on them has been systemic through devolution and before. Hard to see why independence will help mend that

This is a very disappointing response. Both sides are taking about the future of Scotland and ignoring the scarring of Scottish society by booze and bigotry. Just by turning a blind eye. Many of the ailments you describe would be alleviated in some part by tackilng the twin curses of Scotland.

 

I'm a bloke that likes a drink BTW but hopefully not a bigot. But the evidence on booze and bigotry must not the ignored by those promoting a vision for the future of Scotland. I'm currently trying to plough through the White Paper and will also check what Better together are saying and report back.

[jambos are go!]

Money saving expert are doing an independence poll:

 

http://www.moneysavi...pendant-country

 

Unusual voting patterns, apparently.

 

People have asked before why Panelbase & other online polling can't be taken seriously - here's part of your answer. Constant social media campaigns to influence the vote from the Yes camp.

 

Did Salmond not refer to online 'wizardry' to help win this campaign?

 

Good post ignored in the hope it will disappear no doubt. The same social media campaigns that no doubt flood phone ins and other media debates with YES supporters. Questions will eventually have to be asked about this when broadcasters in particular have a legal duty to ensure they reflect public opinion and views. Clearly not working when NO has twice the support in the Polls but a minority of the contributions in media events.

[Alba gu Brath]

Good post ignored in the hope it will disappear no doubt. The same social media campaigns that no doubt flood phone ins and other media debates with YES supporters. Questions will eventually have to be asked about this when broadcasters in particular have a legal duty to ensure they reflect public opinion and views. Clearly not working when NO has twice the support in the Polls but a minority of the contributions in media events.

 

I'm sure the establishment media more than makes up for a few activist student types on the Yes side. Let's not forget that the London parties have proved themselves adept at manipulating the media for their own ends.

 

Public broadcasters do not have any duty to reflect opinion polls. I'm not sure that they even need to heed the results of elections given that UKIP - and Galloway for that matter - gets a disproportionate coverage on the BBC, even in Scotland, despite having NO elected representation here - something the Socialists and Greens have cause to be bitter about.

[Patrick Bateman]

Did anyone else see the loathsomely self-satisfied Simon Pia filibustering his way through Scotland Tonight and calling for John Reid and Brian Wilson to get involved for better together. I'm convinced certain Labour types live in a 1997 time warp where the Iraq war, financial collapse and massive inequality gap didn't happen. Anyway, funnily enough, better together turned down the opportunity to appear to explain why they're not falling apart. It definitely seems like they're in crisis.

[TheMaganator]

Did anyone else see the loathsomely self-satisfied Simon Pia filibustering his way through Scotland Tonight and calling for John Reid and Brian Wilson to get involved for better together. I'm convinced certain Labour types live in a 1997 time warp where the Iraq war, financial collapse and massive inequality gap didn't happen. Anyway, funnily enough, better together turned down the opportunity to appear to explain why they're not falling apart. It definitely seems like they're in crisis.

Why are they in crisis?

 

Sure, they could be doing better but if BT are in crisis and have still managed to hold their ground in all but wings over Scotland Panelbase polls what does that suggest about the state of the Yes camp?

 

A yes camp that just played one of their biggest, if not the biggest, trump card they have.

[Patrick Bateman]

Why are they in crisis?

 

Sure, they could be doing better but if BT are in crisis and have still managed to hold their ground in all but wings over Scotland Panelbase polls what does that suggest about the state of the Yes camp?

 

A yes camp that just played one of their biggest, if not the biggest, trump card they have.

 

From that FT article I posted, the knives are out for Darling, who has been described as comatose. Following Carmichael's disastrous performance against Sturgeon, he's also being criticised. There was talk of political splits between Labour and Tories, likely personal ones too (hence Gordon Brown's cringeworthy and seemingly abandoned United with Labour group rather than back Darling, whom he loathes). We still have 10 months to go, and I expect Osbourne's budget tomorrow might help move a few towards yes. As I have said before, the pendulum is only going to swing one way.

[IMac]

From that FT article I posted, the knives are out for Darling, who has been described as comatose. Following Carmichael's disastrous performance against Sturgeon, he's also being criticised. There was talk of political splits between Labour and Tories, likely personal ones too (hence Gordon Brown's cringeworthy and seemingly abandoned United with Labour group rather than back Darling, whom he loathes). We still have 10 months to go, and I expect Osbourne's budget tomorrow might help move a few towards yes. As I have said before, the pendulum is only going to swing one way.

 

Although the tories are not the best for a lefty like me, the SNP refuse to rule Scotland. they were elected by a minority with a majority of seats and what have they done? proposed a referendum? so passed a decision on to the people of Scotland. Good!

 

But what else? where is the legislation to transform Scotland? Surely some of the policies of the White paper could be moved thru parliament now. No, we shall wait and campaign for 4 years while Scotland suffers under a tory government and a SNP poser government. Why do people think once we are independent things will suddenly get better? Holyrood is devoid of talent. Scotland under any of the current leaders would be hopeless.

 

Very frustrated by politics (and this thread).

[Patrick Bateman]

Although the tories are not the best for a lefty like me, the SNP refuse to rule Scotland. they were elected by a minority with a majority of seats and what have they done? proposed a referendum? so passed a decision on to the people of Scotland. Good!

 

But what else? where is the legislation to transform Scotland? Surely some of the policies of the White paper could be moved thru parliament now. No, we shall wait and campaign for 4 years while Scotland suffers under a tory government and a SNP poser government. Why do people think once we are independent things will suddenly get better? Holyrood is devoid of talent. Scotland under any of the current leaders would be hopeless.

 

Very frustrated by politics (and this thread).

 

And your solution to this impasse is what, exactly? To vote no and perpetuate a failed system?

 

What transformational policies do you propose, and how do you propose they are funded, when budgets have been tightened by the Treasury in London?

[JamboX2]

Gordon Brown, the man who proclaimed the end of boom and bust, supported the Iraq war, sold off the UK's gold reserves, oversaw the growing inequality, failed to control the rampant financial services sector and whose best days are well behind him. Yup, I'd say he's the perfect man to represent the union.

 

I could retort that Yes is led by Mr Salmond. A man who proclaimed the virtues of the flawed Irish free market tiger economy, a man who said Fred Goodwin was doing a great job for RBS and Scotland, believed in LESS regulation of the banks and financial markets in the run up to 2007. A man who has led a government who turned a blind eye to sectarianism in Scotland until the Neil Lennon stuff erupted - after good work by the McConnell administration, a man who leads a government who favours a tax freeze favouring wealthier households whilst cutting anti-poverty measures and government services and who, depending on your opinion, released a terrorist. The perfect Yes-man?

 

But then again I accept some events are outwith a man's control regardless of his position and power - financial markets and global downturns. And that some are just a part of human fallibility. Oh, and that in some cases they believe they are doing what's right. Brown still polls well in Scotland. Even when he was deeply unpopular UK wide, he led Labour to it's best showing in Scotland for decades in vote share, a year out from a Holyrood thumping the SNP were gutless and lacked presence. I reckon he's the man the SNP and Yes Scotland would least like to face. Darling on the other hand is the man they want.

 

The problem (as far as heading up the Better Together campaign, not generally a problem) is Brown's dislike of the Tories. I recall he's only campaigned with United with Labour as he's refused to share a stage with the Conservatives.

 

He'd certainly be a boost for the campaign but I doubt he'd keep as quiet on the current UK Government as Darling has been, and it probably wouldn't be worth the upheaval if he was going to be. I also doubt if some of the Conservative and Liberal donors would be as happy to fund a passionate Brown as they would the 'comatose' Darling, which may also play into the decision.

 

Brown, Kennedy and Harper would probably be the three best choices for running the Better Together campaign but how willing would they be to defend the actions of the current and past Tory and Tory-led governments as they will have to to some extent.

 

Totally agree with you on the final point. Goldie does well at being a Scottish Conservative. She handles herself well and holds her own. Through her in to be the "centre-right" voice, and you've a perfect team to lead the No team. Hardper is an unexpected bonus - non-main parties, more radical than them, but believes in Union. Maybe a more vocal BT critique of the current UK government and a narrative of democratic balance in devolution would be benefit the No side.

 

He isn't the first Labour man to declare support for Yes, Charles Gray and Alex Mosson have gone before him. I also suspect Malcolm Chissholm and Henry McLeish could declare support for independence too. I think a number of Labour members will have trouble with claiming that being vulnerable and subjected to Governments that Scotland didn't elect is a worthy price to vote No. Ultimately, traditional Labour and progressive values have been demonstrably more likely to be upheld in Scotland than the rest of the UK, despite earlier saying that Scotland is, actually, conservative.

 

McLeish has been pragmatic throughout. However, he's a devolutionist-unionist. He believes in Union, but a reformed one - like Ken MacIntosh, Wendy Alexander, Dougie Alexander and Malcolm Chisolm. Chisolm has also made some impassioned speeches on the benefits, as he see's it of Unionism. So I wouldn't hold out. Where they do differ, is that unlike Lamont, Gray, McConnell, Murphy and guys like John Reid, they are both pragmatic and more of the liberal-socialist/social democratic wing of the party, not the small c conservative one. They are pragmatic and open to cross-party working - akin to Dewar, Smith, Cook and McKay. I would not expect them to come out and back it. I wouldn't expect any MSP to back it, or MP for that. Reform of the devolution settlement will be a strong want in MSP ranks, and is popular with a growing number of MPs from reading Labour publications and neutral ones too.

 

As for those old Labour names, most are local government, hold little or no influence in the party and never have had a national profile - ie been an MSP/MP. Not belittling them, but I'd say Robin Harper is as big a scalp for the No side. A big name, first Green parliamentarian in the UK and led a Yes-supporting party, which under him was a Yes party, or pro-independence one. Pretty big scalp if we view it that way.

 

This is a very disappointing response. Both sides are taking about the future of Scotland and ignoring the scarring of Scottish society by booze and bigotry. Just by turning a blind eye. Many of the ailments you describe would be alleviated in some part by tackilng the twin curses of Scotland.

 

I'm a bloke that likes a drink BTW but hopefully not a bigot. But the evidence on booze and bigotry must not the ignored by those promoting a vision for the future of Scotland. I'm currently trying to plough through the White Paper and will also check what Better together are saying and report back.

 

I agree. It's one I feel can only be tackled by education and breaking down barriers in communities. That means an end to religious schools funded by the state, a zero tolerance attitude to it in football and education that there is no differences here that are meaningful anymore. Drink is similar, however, you can charge for it till it's ?20 a bottle of beer, but people will either still pay for it or find another drug. It's got to be tackled with education and a learning to have a better drink culture.

[JamboX2]

And your solution to this impasse is what, exactly? To vote no and perpetuate a failed system?

 

What transformational policies do you propose, and how do you propose they are funded, when budgets have been tightened by the Treasury in London?

 

To have at least one government doing something radical wth the power they have. The key pledge in the white paper can be delievered over the term of a devolved parliament by a devolved administration. So why has it not? That's a good point. Surely if something is worth doing for the good of ordinary people it matter not what the consitutional position is.

[Patrick Bateman]

To have at least one government doing something radical wth the power they have. The key pledge in the white paper can be delievered over the term of a devolved parliament by a devolved administration. So why has it not? That's a good point. Surely if something is worth doing for the good of ordinary people it matter not what the consitutional position is.

 

Independence is pretty radical, whether you regard certain elements of what is being proposed as individually radical, is another matter. Come on JamboX2, I know there's a Yes man inside you, you just need to take the step.

[JamboX2]

Independence is pretty radical, whether you regard certain elements of what is being proposed as individually radical, is another matter. Come on JamboX2, I know there's a Yes man inside you, you just need to take the step.

 

As I've told you repeatedly, I have no qualms with Yes happening. I just think what we're being sold is a pig in a poke. It's independence-lite and there's nothing radical in the model proposed - in fact it's being a Little Britain imo. Being tied to the currency and interest rates of the UK mean you're economy will forever be convergent. Plus most of the things I think people in Scotland want, and what Scotland needs can be delivered through devolution. My lefty political standpoint comes before any constitutional tinkering.

Edited December 5, 2013 by JamboX2

[Nookie Bear]

As I've told you repeatedly, I have no qualms with Yes happening. I just think what we're being sold is a pig in a poke. It's independence-lite and there's nothing radical in the model proposed - in fact it's being a Little Britain imo. Being tied to the currency and interest rates of the UK mean you're economy will forever be convergent. Plus most of the things I think people in Scotland want, and what Scotland needs can be delivered through devolution. My lefty political standpoint comes before any constitutional tinkering.

 

This is pretty much how I feel.

 

I had a chat with a Yes leafleter over the weekend where it became apparent that his only argument he could offer was that "yes, but WE would be controlling our destiny" but that very little would change. Even I realise that a YES vote makes very little difference to me which begged the question of why we are bothering with it at all.

 

If Westminst rule is quite so painful for Scotland then a truly radical break would be worth fighting for and against much more vehemently than it is now.

 

(He did ask me whether I wanted to live in a democracy, which I found bemusing.)

[flecktimus]

This is pretty much how I feel.

 

I had a chat with a Yes leafleter over the weekend where it became apparent that his only argument he could offer was that "yes, but WE would be controlling our destiny" but that very little would change. Even I realise that a YES vote makes very little difference to me which begged the question of why we are bothering with it at all.

 

If Westminst rule is quite so painful for Scotland then a truly radical break would be worth fighting for and against much more vehemently than it is now.

 

(He did ask me whether I wanted to live in a democracy, which I found bemusing.)

 

I am sure you would have had a different conversation if Patrick Bateman had been delivering your leaflets.

Edited December 5, 2013 by flecktimus

[Nookie Bear]

I am sure you would have had a different conversation if Patrick Bateman had been delivering your leaflets.

 

I'm sure it would have been an even more enlightened and reasoned debate than actually happened.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Nookie Bear

[Patrick Bateman]

The independence movement is a broad church and there is a significant left wing movement to be found with Radical Independence - http://radicalindependence.org/

 

I don't see anything like that happening on a proportionate level from the parties at Westminster. Folk might scoff, but remember that more niche parties like the SSP and Senior Citizens Party have held seats at Holyrood, something which hasn't happened at Westminster, ever, because of its arrangement.

[Patrick Bateman]

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8428-fury-after-unelected-peers-strip-power-from-scotland What was that about new powers coming to Scotland?

[jack D and coke]

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8428-fury-after-unelected-peers-strip-power-from-scotland What was that about new powers coming to Scotland?

Anybody who believes a No vote will see us get more power is living in a dream. I believe we will get a pounding come the inevitable No vote.

[SE16 3LN]

Anybody who believes a No vote will see us get more power is living in a dream. I believe we will get a pounding come the inevitable No vote.

Who is this "we" and who is going to give "we" a pounding?

[Bungalow Bill]

I'm just realising that Cllr Alex Lunn defecting from Labour to the SNP so that he can campaign for independence hasn't been mentioned on here yet. Especially given that he's an Edinburgh councillor.

 

Interesting that he felt the need to leave the party for just that one issue. I'm not sure whether there's a contrast with Robin Harper and the Greens here or not.

 

It wasn't purely because of independence, the Labour Party is full of people happy to coast bye and do the bare minimum. Both are factors to him leaving.

 

Also, for what it's worth he's a big jambo.

[Alba gu Brath]

The Unionists of Better Together are falling apart. The irony of it.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-darling-comatose-say-tories-1-3219705

 

THE pro-UK campaign in the independence referendum has been hit by a fresh split amid reports that senior Conservatives have labelled Alistair Darling as ?comatose?.

Senior Conservative sources are quoted in a report by the Financial Times slamming the way the former Chancellor is running the Better Together campaign.

According to the paper, one senior Tory figure said: ?The man has never run a campaign. He is comatose most of the time.?

A Downing Street source was also quoted as describing Mr Darling as a ?dreary figurehead? for such an important campaign.

 

[JamboX2]

This is pretty much how I feel.

 

I had a chat with a Yes leafleter over the weekend where it became apparent that his only argument he could offer was that "yes, but WE would be controlling our destiny" but that very little would change. Even I realise that a YES vote makes very little difference to me which begged the question of why we are bothering with it at all.

 

If Westminst rule is quite so painful for Scotland then a truly radical break would be worth fighting for and against much more vehemently than it is now.

 

(He did ask me whether I wanted to live in a democracy, which I found bemusing.)

 

I also had a run in with a Yes-Scotland door knocker last night. When he asked who I'd vote for tomorrow, I said I'd vote no. He then made a flimsy speech on the benefits of handling our own destiny. I said we already have that as we elect who we want to enact policies in a Scottish context. I then got tied to London etc. To which I said but currency union. Basically he went back to the destiny thing. It's the sign of a lackluster campaign. Neither campaign has set the heather a light. Which is a shame. Both are fighting this as an incumbent government belittling the SNP 2016 manifesto - which forms the basis of an independent Scotland. It's no surprise this is all failing to catch folks imaginations.

 

Scotsman said a recent poll put Yes at 26% today. Says a lot to me. I reckon the No side are failing to offer an alternative which would kill the Yes side. Now Sturgeon's proposing another one in 10 years if No wins. If it's 60% no, which it might be, then they cannot pledge to have one for a long while. A narrow No win. then fair enough. But if it's a large win for No then a manifesto commitment would be a bad idea. It'd be like a Yes win and Labour pledging reunification!

 

Anybody who believes a No vote will see us get more power is living in a dream. I believe we will get a pounding come the inevitable No vote.

 

I I'm more pragmatic than that. I can't understand the logic of punishing Scotland if it votes to retain the UK state. With the demand for reform elsewhere in the UK on local power and devolution, I'd expect reform. It'd be a poitical necessity.

[Patrick Bateman]

I I'm more pragmatic than that. I can't understand the logic of punishing Scotland if it votes to retain the UK state. With the demand for reform elsewhere in the UK on local power and devolution, I'd expect reform. It'd be a poitical necessity.

 

With a no vote, there will be no political necessity. The leverage will be gone, so why on earth would Scotland's interests remain centre stage? Why should we even ask for it to be? Following a no vote, the unionist parties will focus on their own flavours of neoliberalism at Westminster, maybe ramp up another EU/immigrant type debate and London will continue to be the Las Vegas of the banking world. It's that simple. We were promised all sorts of things by Thatcher in 79, and guess what, they never materialised. The best way of gauging future behaviour is by checking the past.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/how-money-changed-everything/#more-45462

[JamboX2]

With a no vote, there will be no political necessity. The leverage will be gone, so why on earth would Scotland's interests remain centre stage? Why should we even ask for it to be? Following a no vote, the unionist parties will focus on their own flavours of neoliberalism at Westminster, maybe ramp up another EU/immigrant type debate and London will continue to be the Las Vegas of the banking world. It's that simple. We were promised all sorts of things by Thatcher in 79, and guess what, they never materialised. The best way of gauging future behaviour is by checking the past.

 

http://wingsoverscot...ing/#more-45462

 

And with a Yes vote we will have Scottish brand flavours of neo-liberalism, one of whom in the SNP are pretty Blairite, and a few fringe parties. Big changes a foot.

[Patrick Bateman]

And with a Yes vote we will have Scottish brand flavours of neo-liberalism, one of whom in the SNP are pretty Blairite, and a few fringe parties. Big changes a foot.

 

Can you explain what's neoliberal about state funded childcare and maintaining state funded tertiary education and healthcare? You claim to be left wing, yet support a parliamentary system which routinely returns right wing governments and which has done for decades. You cannot repeat the same system and expect different results.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

Vote Yes ? vote SNP.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Iago

[JamboX2]

Can you explain what's neoliberal about state funded childcare and maintaining state funded tertiary education and healthcare? You claim to be left wing, yet support a parliamentary system which routinely returns right wing governments and which has done for decades. You cannot repeat the same system and expect different results.

 

A neo-liberal consensus on economic solutions exists in Scotland. A cut in corporation tax is seen by the Scottish Government as the key incentive for businesses. It proposes to maintain UK level tax rates and tax credits. All things dreamt up by the Blair and Major Governments as things designed to give money back instead of collecting it and spending on state services. It's all dependent on a free market making big money quick and spending it. Essentially it's proposing Blair-Brown economics. Not an innovative or lefty economic plan, not even nordic.

 

I am routinely dissapointed by all parties and governments. The Yes side as adopted a centrist and unimaginative approach to issues facing Scotland. It's groundbreaking childcare plan could be delivered under devolution. It proposes to keep a union in currency which will make the economy of an independent Scotland little different from what it is now and will not create a divergent economy of our own, but a convergent economy tied to London dogmas the movement rejects. That's not exactly progressive and imaginative, nor lefty.