Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Pans Jambo]

Turkey is probably the most strategically important country in Europe standing at the gateway to Asia and the Med. It is a fully active and vital member of Nato. Despite its vital importance it has been blocked from EC membership for decades by the lighweight and economically non functional Greeks. Norway has more oil than Scotland but according to its PM is run by fax from Brussels anyway. Why would the EC the give more priority to an anti Euro applicant Scotland over the concerns from founder member and Euro nation Spain wanting to apply a legitimate treaty based Veto.

 

The question you should be asking is WHY it has been blocked by Greece and not why Turkey being blocked has got anything to do with Scotland.

 

I went on holiday to Turkey & it was good. The following year I went to Greece. The staff at the bar near the pool asked where else I had been on holiday and when I said Turkey he spat on the floor and said XXXXXX Greek Basdards!

 

Might be something to do with how they view each other and nothing at all to with anything Scotland has to offer.

 

Turks & Greeks today are like Scotland - England was in the 10th century! They HATE each other!

[jambos are go!]

The question you should be asking is WHY it has been blocked by Greece and not why Turkey being blocked has got anything to do with Scotland.

 

I went on holiday to Turkey & it was good. The following year I went to Greece. The staff at the bar near the pool asked where else I had been on holiday and when I said Turkey he spat on the floor and said XXXXXX Greek Basdards!

 

Might be something to do with how they view each other and nothing at all to with anything Scotland has to offer.

 

Turks & Greeks today are like Scotland - England was in the 10th century! They HATE each other!

Turkey is being blocked by Greece because they can. By the same premise so can Spain block Scotland.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Maybe they will at some point?

 

Or perhaps our constitution will mean any EU changes need ratified by plebiscite a la the Irish.

 

Its pretty hard to leave the EU. I'd argue joining must be a vote of the people once terms are negotiated. A new nation deserves that option.

 

NATO too need be a vote.

 

The only reason the SNP and Yes Scotland wont do this is a fear of the Tory-right and UKIP.

Edited December 10, 2013 by JamboX2

[jambos are go!]

We can build more on the Clyde when the rUK fall out with themselves and take their toys (sorry ship building contracts) away after a YES vote!

Billions on fishing boats to replace Trident and new warships. That sounds like fishy economics. Just how many fishing boats are you proposing? Edited December 10, 2013 by jambos are go!

[Boris]

 

 

Its pretty hard to leave the EU. I'd argue joining must be a vote of the people once terms are negotiated. A new nation deserves that option.

 

NATO too need be a vote.

 

The only reason the SNP and Yes Scotland wont do this is a fear of the Tory-right and UKIP.

 

Disagree. The tory right and ukip are no power bloc in scottish politics.

 

Labour/Libs/Tories all pro EU so I doubt any party would not campaign for membership. Scotland does well out of the EU.

[Boris]

.....concerns from founder member and Euro nation Spain wanting to apply a legitimate treaty based Veto.

 

Spain isnt an EU founder member. They joined in 1986.

[JamboX2]

 

Disagree. The tory right and ukip are no power bloc in scottish politics.

 

Labour/Libs/Tories all pro EU so I doubt any party would not campaign for membership. Scotland does well out of the EU.

 

The Tories want EU reform and the Liberals want some form of re-ratification. Labour, who knows, but they'd rather be in than out. I never said UKIP or euroskepticism is big up here. I said the SNP fear association with those ideas.

 

However party politics is only part of this. The perscient point is, should Scots in a newly independent nation get a say on who she is tied to?

 

The SNP have no right to say NATO and the EU and Shared Currency are in before a 2016 independent Scottish election. None at all. In that case it should be a plebiscite on each. Nato, yes/no then the EU and Currency. That'd be undemocratic that such major decisions should be open to us Scots.

 

[Das Root]

 

Have you spoken to Mr Rajoy? Not that I have but I would say that his position will be determined by Spain's national interest and no one elses.

 

 

I have yes, he told me he was fibbing. Then he asked for some spare change to help bail out those pesky banks of his.

[jambos are go!]

Spain isnt an EU founder member. They joined in 1986.

Thanks for the correction. Should have said longstanding or established m

ember.

[JamboX2]

 

 

I have yes, he told me he was fibbing. Then he asked for some spare change to help bail out those pesky banks of his.

 

Knew it!

 

However, do you see the contradiction of wanting independence and making our own way in the world when larger nations will continue to dictate to us?

 

For what its worth, Spain will do what it feels is best on this issue for herself. Catalonia and The Basque Country are matters of importance to them. I dont think their sabre rattling should determine your or my vote. It is designed to sway Commission thinking on how it'd deal with a totally new development for the EU.

 

Whether that is effective is by the by. The real question is do we want in?

 

 

[Das Root]

 

Knew it!

 

However, do you see the contradiction of wanting independence and making our own way in the world when larger nations will continue to dictate to us?

 

For what its worth, Spain will do what it feels is best on this issue for herself. Catalonia and The Basque Country are matters of importance to them. I dont think their sabre rattling should determine your or my vote. It is designed to sway Commission thinking on how it'd deal with a totally new development for the EU.

 

Whether that is effective is by the by. The real question is do we want in?

 

Lots of people tell me what to do, but I don't have to do it. Freedom of choice and all that. Independence gives Scotland that freedom we do not have just now if Westminster decide to roll out crap policy UK wide.

[JamboX2]

 

Lots of people tell me what to do, but I don't have to do it. Freedom of choice and all that. Independence gives Scotland that freedom we do not have just now if Westminster decide to roll out crap policy UK wide.

 

But by saying Spain will have its position dictated to it by Germany and France suggests that wont be the case. Its a strawman argument to say Spain will fall into line. But who knows what will happen. Personally, I'd rather we get a vote on whether we Scots want into the EU or not if Yes wins. I'm sure the Salmond v Margo debates would be firey.

 

 

[Alba gu Brath]

SNP councillors have called for a supermarket boycott

 

'free, open debate', aye?

 

So long as you dont go against the SNP msg.

 

Which part of being open and free don't you get?

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Which part of being open and free don't you get?

I get it all.

 

The SNP don't though. Hence calling for boycotts and complaining to universities - along with that FTSE quote from the BBC article.

 

You can't have free & open debate if the government works actively against those who disagree with them.

 

I'm sure you agree.

[JamboInSouthsea]

And who will be landing all that fish given we have a tiny fleet?

 

It could expand, it's smaller than it was due to being forced into the current situation and fish quotas given to each nation as sold to by the Heath govt....didn't affect the rest of UK, only the Scottish fleet...nice!!!

 

Why do you think Iceland is a rich nation, apart from next to zero energy prices (handy having volcanoes on yer turf), they are wealthy through fishing...not the be all and end all for Scotland but not to be sneezed at. Scotland is a relatively massively resource rich country and yet it is relatively poor in comparison to countries of similar size and population in the area...has this 300+ year union been good for the people??

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

It could expand, it's smaller than it was due to being forced into the current situation and fish quotas given to each nation as sold to by the Heath govt....didn't affect the rest of UK, only the Scottish fleet...nice!!!

 

Why do you think Iceland is a rich nation, apart from next to zero energy prices (handy having volcanoes on yer turf), they are wealthy through fishing...not the be all and end all for Scotland but not to be sneezed at. Scotland is a relatively massively resource rich country and yet it is relatively poor in comparison to countries of similar size and population in the area...has this 300+ year union been good for the people??

Iceland isn't in the CFP either.

[redm]

I get it all.

 

The SNP don't though. Hence calling for boycotts and complaining to universities - along with that FTSE quote from the BBC article.

 

You can't have free & open debate if the government works actively against those who disagree with them.

 

I'm sure you agree.

 

I'm amazed that you don't think this sort of thing is fairly standard for governments and politicians everywhere. It's certainly not an activity exclusive to our government.

 

That said, I don't know what this story is about complaints to Universities - got a link?

 

Edit: It's okay, I found one. And it wasn't quite as straightforward as you suggest.

 

A minister approached the university because she heard that one of the academics supervising a study into referendum issues was also participating in Better Together events. I fail to see how pointing out a conflict of interest is such a terrible thing to do. No wonder they raised the issue.

 

As for being widely criticised by other academics, it was certainly criticised by the members of the UK Academics Together group, the academic arm of the Better Together campaign. Forgive me for not being stunned that they decided to dress it up as an attempt to 'gag' universities.

Edited December 11, 2013 by redm

[JamboInSouthsea]

Iceland isn't in the CFP either.

 

I don't get your point mate, was merely pointing out that fishing is a resource to Scotland that was given away when the UK joined the EU...75% of all fishing in the UK's waters come from what would otherwise be Scottish waters.

Edited December 11, 2013 by JamboInSouthsea

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

I don't get your point mate, was merely pointing out that fishing is a resource to Scotland that was given away when the UK joined the EU...75% of all fishing in the UK's waters come from what would otherwise be Scottish waters.

I was bringing it into the context of this EU membership debate. I fully agree that fishing rights were given away in 1973. What I am posing is the consideration of the benefits of EU membership rather than the qualification to be at the table.

[JamboInSouthsea]

I was bringing it into the context of this EU membership debate. I fully agree that fishing rights were given away in 1973. What I am posing is the consideration of the benefits of EU membership rather than the qualification to be at the table.

 

Ah fair enough then though it does give Scotland, should the vote be YES, a bit more clout no?

 

Strange of the Spanish heid lad to have a go considering that Spanish fishermen might lose out big style....sorry not having a go but think it a valid point.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Ah fair enough then though it does give Scotland, should the vote be YES, a bit more clout no?

 

Strange of the Spanish heid lad to have a go considering that Spanish fishermen might lose out big style....sorry not having a go but think it a valid point.

Absolutely. Rather than showing "desperation" to be in the club, Scotland should be asking if it needs to be in at all.

[JamboX2]

 

I'm amazed that you don't think this sort of thing is fairly standard for governments and politicians everywhere. It's certainly not an activity exclusive to our government.

 

That said, I don't know what this story is about complaints to Universities - got a link?

 

Edit: It's okay, I found one. And it wasn't quite as straightforward as you suggest.

 

A minister approached the university because she heard that one of the academics supervising a study into referendum issues was also participating in Better Together events. I fail to see how pointing out a conflict of interest is such a terrible thing to do. No wonder they raised the issue.

 

As for being widely criticised by other academics, it was certainly criticised by the members of the UK Academics Together group, the academic arm of the Better Together campaign. Forgive me for not being stunned that they decided to dress it up as an attempt to 'gag' universities.

 

No one in Scotland is neutral on this. Everyone has opinions. I'm sure there are unionist civil servants who worked on the White Paper and supported the Fiscal Commission. Did they have a conflict of interest?

 

The SNP can be pretty precious in this debate. I wonder if such a conflict would've been brought up by Ms Robinson if the guy had been in Academics for Yes or some such organisation. I doubt it.

 

This at the time seemed a response in a tit for tat way on the academic who wrote a "neutral" article for the Herald but it was later discovered he'd been paid by Yes Scotland.

 

[TheMaganator]

 

 

No one in Scotland is neutral on this. Everyone has opinions. I'm sure there are unionist civil servants who worked on the White Paper and supported the Fiscal Commission. Did they have a conflict of interest?

 

The SNP can be pretty precious in this debate. I wonder if such a conflict would've been brought up by Ms Robinson if the guy had been in Academics for Yes or some such organisation. I doubt it.

 

This at the time seemed a response in a tit for tat way on the academic who wrote a "neutral" article for the Herald but it was later discovered he'd been paid by Yes Scotland.

& there's a chap on the law society committee that looks at independence issues that actively writes in support of independence. I'll PM his name to anyone that wants it.

 

To suggest a conflict of interest is unreal.

 

Head of St Andrews Uni spoke out:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10450282/St-Andrews-principal-urges-staff-to-speak-out-in-independence-debate.html

 

Google Mike Russell & you'll find articles about how he's treated those against his plans - though granted that's not an independence issue but shows how the SNP operate.

 

And you've ignored the SNP councillor calling for a boycott.

 

This certainly isn't the first or even second time we've heard of people concerned about speaking out.

 

You can apologise for them all you want - but this is not how this debate should be carried out & is pretty shocking.

 

[JamboX2]

& there's a chap on the law society committee that looks at independence issues that actively writes in support of independence. I'll PM his name to anyone that wants it.

 

To suggest a conflict of interest is unreal.

 

Head of St Andrews Uni spoke out:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10450282/St-Andrews-principal-urges-staff-to-speak-out-in-independence-debate.html

 

Google Mike Russell & you'll find articles about how he's treated those against his plans - though granted that's not an independence issue but shows how the SNP operate.

 

And you've ignored the SNP councillor calling for a boycott.

 

This certainly isn't the first or even second time we've heard of people concerned about speaking out.

 

You can apologise for them all you want - but this is not how this debate should be carried out & is pretty shocking.

 

Agree on all points. Drags this debate through the rubbish to accuse others of a bias. Its as bad as saying not backing Yes is un-Scottish and against the interests of Scotland.

 

 

[Ulysses]

 

Agree on all points. Drags this debate through the rubbish to accuse others of a bias. Its as bad as saying not backing Yes is un-Scottish and against the interests of Scotland.

 

Both sides do a fair bit of this - and then whinge when the other side does it.

 

It's probably a distraction from the poor quality of their arguments for voting their way.

[TheMaganator]

Another YouGov poll:

 

YES - 33%

NO - 52%

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/scotland/article3945673.ece

 

10 months to go. Salmond better have something big up his sleeve

[TheMaganator]

Another YouGov poll:

 

YES - 33%

NO - 52%

 

http://www.thetimes....icle3945673.ece

 

10 months to go. Salmond better have something big up his sleeve

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/teenagers-least-likely-to-vote-yes-in-referendum-1-3226930#.UqdLp77fKg8.twitter

 

And interesting research from University of Edinburgh saying teenagers are least likely to vote Yes.

[Alba gu Brath]

Agree on all points. Drags this debate through the rubbish to accuse others of a bias. Its as bad as saying not backing Yes is un-Scottish and against the interests of Scotland.

 

Has anyone actually said this?

 

Its a bit like the 'Braveheart' rubbish. Apparently, 75% of all uses of Braveheart in connection with independence are by Unionists to quote someone from Scotland Tonight's debate a week or so back. I do remember the SNP rightly criticising Labour, I think, for not 'respecting' the wishes of the electorate who had just voted the SNP in by a landslide. A valid point I think that has been somewhat twisted, like we see above.

[Alba gu Brath]

double post...

Edited December 11, 2013 by Alba gu Brath

[TheMaganator]

Has anyone actually said this?

 

Its a bit like the 'Braveheart' rubbish. Apparently, 75% of all uses of Braveheart in connection with independence are by Unionists to quote someone from Scotland Tonight's debate a week or so back. I do remember the SNP rightly criticising Labour, I think, for not 'respecting' the wishes of the electorate who had just voted the SNP in by a landslide. A valid point I think that has been somewhat twisted, like we see above.

 

Did Salmond not invite David Cameron to come and debate 'against Scotland'?

 

I was told on this thread that I wasnt 'anti-Scotland, but that I wasn't for Scotland either' as I support Scotland in the Union.

 

Two very quick examples off the top of my head.

[jambos are go!]

If there is a YES vote and membership of the EC depends on joining the Euro what is the YES campaign policy?

 

Join the disfunctional euro ?

Abandon Independence?

An independent currency?

Another referendum with currency options?

Muddle along with the UK pound outside the UK and the EC and be ruled by fax from Brussels?

 

Unless your an independence or bust nationalist you should IMO vote NO if you see the currency issue as a primary decider.

Edited December 11, 2013 by jambos are go!

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Did Salmond not invite David Cameron to come and debate 'against Scotland'?

 

EDIT: he did http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10287306/Alex-Salmond-wants-David-Cameron-to-make-anti-Scottish-case-in-TV-debate.html

 

 

I was told on this thread that I wasnt 'anti-Scotland, but that I wasn't for Scotland either' as I support Scotland in the Union.

 

Two very quick examples off the top of my head.

 

 

EDIT: McAlpine too http://m.stv.tv/news/politics/293417-parties-clash-over-msps-anti-scottish-claims/

 

[Jambo, Goodbye]

If there is a YES vote and membership of the EC depends on joining the Euro what is the YES campaign policy?

 

Join the disfunctional euro ?

Abandon Independence?

An independent currency?

Another referendum with currency options?

Muddle along with the UK pound outside the UK and the EC and be ruled by fax from Brussels?

 

Unless your an independence or bust nationalist you should IMO vote NO if you see the currency issue as a primary decider.

 

There is no precedent for a country being forced to adopt the euro. In fact we couldn't adopt the euro if we wanted to as independently we have a to be members for a number of years first. The EU wants primarily, strong economic performance within itself. It won't achieve this by forcing currency change or by expelling citizens who have been in the EU for the last 40 years whilst simultaneously punching a massive hole in its own trade network. Anyone with any common sense can see why Scotland will continue to be a member of the EU. Unlike the rest of the UK which look likely to vote to leave at this time.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

Yeah, one councillor calling for a boycott shouldn't be taken seriously. One councillor. A councillor.

 

That big bad councillor, boycotting a supermarket.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

There is no precedent for a country being forced to adopt the euro. In fact we couldn't adopt the euro if we wanted to as independently we have a to be members for a number of years first. The EU wants primarily, strong economic performance within itself. It won't achieve this by forcing currency change or by expelling citizens who have been in the EU for the last 40 years whilst simultaneously punching a massive hole in its own trade network. Anyone with any common sense can see why Scotland will continue to be a member of the EU. Unlike the rest of the UK which look likely to vote to leave at this time.

 

But why should Scotland remain in the EU? What would membership of the EU do that membership of EFTA would not?

[TheMaganator]

Yeah, one councillor calling for a boycott shouldn't be taken seriously. One councillor. A councillor.

 

That big bad councillor, boycotting a supermarket.

 

Yes, it is easily laughed off (as was Hyslop's intervention) but as far as I am aware he has not been reprimanded by his party and his views mark a wider trend.

 

Not only is it a stupid thing to do, he announced it on twitter, where he will be followed by some who are equally as dim as him - and may join him. The point isnt so much that a few loonies will boycott a supermarket - it is the fact that it was the response - 'they've raised an issue we don't like, lets boycott'. And with that attitude, there will be some in the business community who will be fearful of speaking their mind on the issue. This is not the way the debate should be conducted.

 

Big supermarkets can look after themselves - if this had happened to a small business it would be a different issue.

 

But, sure, lets go for independence and it matters not how we get there - right?

[Jambo, Goodbye]

 

 

But why should Scotland remain in the EU? What would membership of the EU do that membership of EFTA would not?

 

If there is an argument for Scotland to leave let's have our own referendum in the future once a Scottish government has a mandate to hold such a thing on EU membership. We can discuss the pros and cons then. Until then I don't accept that a likely future Tory government unelected by Scotland will hold a referendum which our vote will not affect the outcome of assuming attitudes on the EU in England continue to decline.

 

Yesterday it was said Scotland has missed out on half a billion pounds worth of agriculture funding between now and 2020 due to the UK not negotiating in our best interests. The same institution that labeled our fishing industry as "expendable." We need to be at the table with our own voice and I've just given a clear example why.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If there is an argument for Scotland to leave let's have our own referendum in the future once a Scottish government has a mandate to hold such a thing on EU membership. We can discuss the pros and cons then. Until then I don't accept that a likely future Tory government unelected by Scotland will hold a referendum which our vote will not affect the outcome of assuming attitudes on the EU in England continue to decline.

 

Yesterday it was said Scotland has missed out on half a billion pounds worth of agriculture funding between now and 2020 due to the UK not negotiating in our best interests. The same institution that labeled our fishing industry as "expendable." We need to be at the table with our own voice and I've just given a clear example why.

 

I put the fishing industry argument up above. I'm yet to see a reply as to why Scotland should cede its waters the way Head Teeth did in 1973.

[Jambo, Goodbye]

 

 

I put the fishing industry argument up above. I'm yet to see a reply as to why Scotland should cede its waters the way Head Teeth did in 1973.

 

I can see now the agricultural funding point will be ignored then. As for our waters, this already happens with regard to our oil. Anything else directly with Eu matters may be dependent on negotiations. We have a lot to gain but you can't simply take in this world. Are you suggesting we reap the benefits in such EU funding but don't give anything back?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I can see now the agricultural funding point will be ignored then. As for our waters, this already happens with regard to our oil. Anything else directly with Eu matters may be dependent on negotiations. We have a lot to gain but you can't simply take in this world. Are you suggesting we reap the benefits in such EU funding but don't give anything back?

 

I would argue that agricultural funding in Scotland really only needs to be aimed at crofters. The CAP is another shit policy that should be scrapped.

 

And again, irrespective of whether Scotland remains in the UK or becomes independent, EU funding is going to diminish due to Scotland's prosperity relative to other regions in Southern and Eastern Europe.

[Jambo, Goodbye]

I would argue Scotland losing out on half a billion pounds is bad news regardless. If our prosperity is in such good condition as you suggest it's yet another reason why the EU will welcome us with open arms. You certainly imagine they will want to retain strong economies to balance out the southern and Eastern European regions.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I would argue Scotland losing out on half a billion pounds is bad news regardless. If our prosperity is in such good condition as you suggest it's yet another reason why the EU will welcome us with open arms. You certainly imagine they will want to retain strong economies to balance out the southern and Eastern European regions.

 

You conflate sensible economics with politics. Spain and Belgium will not want their regions getting uppity ideas similar to Scotland.

[pablo]

Will Willie Low's take Jock Marks ?

[Jambo, Goodbye]

Spain and Belgium will not risk bringing turbulence to the market by trying to force Scotland out of the EU immediately following a yes vote. I certainly won't be voting no based on Spanish and Belgian politics and the assertion that they would force us out on the back of a democratic decision we made. Additionally there are fundamental differences to their own respective situations which are constantly being ignored.

[TheMaganator]

Spain and Belgium will not risk bringing turbulence to the market by trying to force Scotland out of the EU immediately following a yes vote. I certainly won't be voting no based on Spanish and Belgian politics and the assertion that they would force us out on the back of a democratic decision we made. Additionally there are fundamental differences to their own respective situations which are constantly being ignored.

They won't need to force us out. We'll be out.

 

We'll then have to reapply.

 

This has now been accepted by the Yes camp has it not?

[FWJ]

 

 

It could expand, it's smaller than it was due to being forced into the current situation and fish quotas given to each nation as sold to by the Heath govt....didn't affect the rest of UK, only the Scottish fleet...nice!!!

 

Why do you think Iceland is a rich nation, apart from next to zero energy prices (handy having volcanoes on yer turf), they are wealthy through fishing...not the be all and end all for Scotland but not to be sneezed at. Scotland is a relatively massively resource rich country and yet it is relatively poor in comparison to countries of similar size and population in the area...has this 300+ year union been good for the people??

It *was* good for Scotland - it gave us access to England's colonies after our own disastrous attempts at empire building. It turned Glasgow into the workshop of the world and gave us the Enlightenment and the New Town.

 

Maybe not so good now though.

Edited December 11, 2013 by FWJ

[Jambo, Goodbye]

 

They won't need to force us out. We'll be out.

 

We'll then have to reapply.

 

This has now been accepted by the Yes camp has it not?

 

No it has not. It has been accepted that we will negotiate from within the EU as we will not be out of it at any point before independence day. There is no precedent that says we'll be out and no sensible evidence to suggest a referendum result can automatically change your EU status. Let's not start making things up on what the yes campaign has said now.

[TheMaganator]

No it has not. It has been accepted that we will negotiate from within the EU as we will not be out of it at any point before independence day. There is no precedent that says we'll be out and no sensible evidence to suggest a referendum result can automatically change your EU status. Let's not start making things up on what the yes campaign has said now.

That is why I included the '?', I wasn't sure.

 

So if we are not able to negotiate from within, before Independence day, will we then be out? We need all member states to agree to have us join. We have also stated when independence day will be - which I have never thought was very sensible, from a negotiating persepective

 

We have only been given 18 months or something to do this?! I have always thought the timetable was tight.

Edited December 11, 2013 by TheMaganator

[TheMaganator]

 

Oh, yes, and Carmichael was called a 'supposed Scot'.

[FWJ]

 

 

They won't need to force us out. We'll be out.

 

We'll then have to reapply.

 

This has now been accepted by the Yes camp has it not?

Might be forced out by UKIP voters in England if we stay in the UK?