Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[flecktimus]

According to a Curtice lecture I went to undecideds tend to make up their mind on the day & vote for the status quo.

 

To have gained no support despite the White Paper launch & being in government is utterly appalling.

 

KM is even trying to abolish an essential part of Scots law that makes us different from English law in an attempt to woo female voters who can see right through him. It hasn't worked.

 

Interesting that 2/3 of unemployed are voting Yes. Hopefully the economy picks up & we get more people into work.

 

I agree with das root that the polls next august are of more importance.

 

As far as the Curtice lecture was concerned what did they say about people swapping from No to undecided.

[TheMaganator]

 

 

I agree with das root that the polls next august are of more importance.

 

As far as the Curtice lecture was concerned what did they say about people swapping from No to undecided.

I agree about the polls.

 

Given that the White Paper was meant to be like the 'Declaration of Arbroath' and make the US 'Declaration of Independence look like a post-it note' in terms of magnitude for the Yes camp - I'd be concerned.

[Patrick Bateman]

Whether an independent Scotland votes left or right is irrelevant, with independence, we will have a political system where Scotland's needs are (at least in theory) the paramount consideration. That does not happen at Westminster, because we have 9% of seats. If folk are happy to see their tax money spent on projects like cross rail and HS2 without ANY tangible benefit to Scotland, then that's up to them.

[Das Root]

 

I agree about the polls.

 

Given that the White Paper was meant to be like the 'Declaration of Arbroath' and make the US 'Declaration of Independence look like a post-it note' in terms of magnitude for the Yes camp - I'd be concerned.

 

 

But then again they are far more sensible and understand there is a long way to go.

 

Do you think what people poll today will be identical to what the entire country votes in Sept?

Edited December 1, 2013 by Das Root

[flecktimus]

I agree about the polls.

 

Given that the White Paper was meant to be like the 'Declaration of Arbroath' and make the US 'Declaration of Independence look like a post-it note' in terms of magnitude for the Yes camp - I'd be concerned.

 

The surface has not even been scratched on the white paper as far as debate goes.

 

There is a very long way to go and to be quite honest i am very happy with Better Together showing a loss of 3% and i am not to worried about no movement for the yes campaign.

 

This is not a 5f sprint its a Grand National.

[Ulysses]

 

 

Again, while conservativsm does exist in Scotland it very much a minority entity. If xenophobic, free-market, anti-Europe, racist politics carries much weight with Scots then why don't the Tories, UKIP and BNP do well. Even the mainstream Tories cannot shake the tag of 'nasty party' with their leaders at best being labelled 'the local matron who judges the jam at a country fete'

 

The term I used was "Merkel-ist". German Christian Democrats might conceivably be xenophobic, anti-Europe and racist, but you'd have a difficult time working that out from their policies. As for the free market, most European conservative parties are capable of having policies that are tilted towards the market while recognising the need for state involvement and a healthy public realm.

 

Your view is essentially "fog in channel, continent cut off". There's more to ideology and political life than Scotland and England, and your analysis would be better if it reflected that.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

People are very fixated with the SNP's post-independence vision. I would agree that there isn't a chasm of difference to the status quo, and that by virtue of being the main proponents of independence, the SNP's vision will be the most prominent and scrutinised.

 

I hope if Scotland does become independent that Labour and a new Scottish conservative party would find new life away from their Westminster counterparts. There is space for a new political narrative in an independent Scotland. This is one of the reasons I'm voting Yes.

 

But, of course, it might not change. There's the possibility of that, I concede. However I'd rather plump for a chance of change rather than the certainty of the same old Westminster political stratifications.

[Das Root]

My thoughts are simple. Labour and the Tories would flourish in an independent Scotland. Able to promote policies more suitable for this country and not for the voting majority. Would open up the field and there's no guarantee the SNP would win out, in fairness I would say there is a quite considerable chance that they would disband or at the very least have people moving back to other parties that more suit their own political ideologies.

 

The other thing to note, every Westminster MP with a Scottish constituency will either have to move south permanently or stand for the new Scottish parliament. That's a lot of experience now working in Edinburgh for the good of Scotland.

 

It's worth the chance, so many things in the favour of change and it succeeding.

[Alba gu Brath]

The term I used was "Merkel-ist". German Christian Democrats might conceivably be xenophobic, anti-Europe and racist, but you'd have a difficult time working that out from their policies. As for the free market, most European conservative parties are capable of having policies that are tilted towards the market while recognising the need for state involvement and a healthy public realm.

 

Your view is essentially "fog in channel, continent cut off". There's more to ideology and political life than Scotland and England, and your analysis would be better if it reflected that.

 

We weren't discussing conservatism in Europe, or elsewhere but Scotland's left-leaning electorate and its 'conservative streak'.

 

Whatever Merkel does, where is your evidence that Scotland's politics are not as I described them.

[Alba gu Brath]

Tongue in cheek, perhaps, but touches on something discussed earlier here:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/scotland-vote-yes-scottish-independence

 

 

Please, Scotland, vote Yes and take us northerners with you

 

I support Scottish independence because I'm sick of being English. How about a Greater Scotland, with a border just south of Blackpool?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I don't care that much about the white paper or what any current party say they will do as it is only relevant in the short term.

For me it is about the long game, will my vote count for more or less in an independent Scotland?

Edited December 1, 2013 by Toxteth O'Grady

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't care that much about the white paper or what any current party say they will do as it is only relevant in the short term.

For me it is about the long game, will my vote count for more or less in an independent Scotland?

 

9% consideration of a parliament or 100%.

Scotland's future in Tory hands or Scotland's future in Scotland's hands.

Spend billions on Trident storage and replacement, HS2 and Crossrail or infrastructure that you might actually use.

 

The choice is pretty straight forward to me.

[JamboX2]

My thoughts are simple. Labour and the Tories would flourish in an independent Scotland. Able to promote policies more suitable for this country and not for the voting majority. Would open up the field and there's no guarantee the SNP would win out, in fairness I would say there is a quite considerable chance that they would disband or at the very least have people moving back to other parties that more suit their own political ideologies.

 

The other thing to note, every Westminster MP with a Scottish constituency will either have to move south permanently or stand for the new Scottish parliament. That's a lot of experience now working in Edinburgh for the good of Scotland.

 

It's worth the chance, so many things in the favour of change and it succeeding.

 

Doubt the reallignment. In electoral terms the SNP have a majority which wont be beat in 2016. Nor even 2020. Plus they are a party of tight control from the top.

 

For me personally speaking if Yes wins tgeir reason to exist is gone and they should exit stage left. However Salmond and the Cabinet, like any human being, want to stay on and run the show and keep the rest at bay. It'll end. All political journeys end. It'll take a long time though. Goes for a Yes or No vote.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

 

 

 

9% consideration of a parliament or 100%.

Scotland's future in Tory hands or Scotland's future in Scotland's hands.

Spend billions on Trident storage and replacement, HS2 and Crossrail or infrastructure that you might actually use.

 

The choice is pretty straight forward to me.

Aye and ....

The issues of today, tomorrow or the future, our votes will have more influence, that is an undeniable fact.

[Felix Lighter]

The most surprising thing is, I'm not in the least bit surprised by that poll, and I should be, given that every other poll seems to suggest about 55% no 25% yes give or take a % age pointhere or there.

 

Then you start to think about the reason why, that's because the nation is largely apathetic about the whole thing and only those with a keen interest didn't turn off the TV, I have subsequently read more snippets of the white paper and what an utterly pathetic prospectus for such an important decision. That was the first big opportunity to get people of the fence and frankly it's not worth the paper it's written on. Instead of an SNP wish list, IT should have been focused entirely around economics and post independence elections. I for one would have little support for SPL policies. Most people dont care about trident, Many people agree with the "attack" on welfare.. You can't debate the question of independence on secondary issues and policies, especially when posts if the people your trying to convince fundamentally disagree

 

A wealthier Scotland has opportunities to take positive decisions, a poorer Scotland does not. Instead it reads like a little boys Christmas list trying to be all Things to all men..

 

That poll wasn't, as you suggest, a poll of people who refused to turn off their TV, it was a studio audience of undecided voters at a live debate.TBF it was a small sample but there are larger examples with similar results,so as has been pointed out on this thread already it suggests that people who actually pay attention to the debate are more inclined towards Yes.

So who then are the apathetic without a keen interest you refer to?Well, obviously not the Yes voter and I think it's safe to assume the undecided are keen on being convinced one way or the other.So that leaves those who accept the status quo, too apathetic to bother their arse listening to the pros and cons of the debate.

[Ulysses]

We weren't discussing conservatism in Europe, or elsewhere but Scotland's left-leaning electorate and its 'conservative streak'.

 

Whatever Merkel does, where is your evidence that Scotland's politics are not as I described them.

 

Who said we were discussing conservatism in Europe? I didn't, so it's not at all clear why you feel the need to refer to it.

 

I've already said that I suspect that a lot of people in Scotland who would be comfortable voting for a Merkel-ist party aren't comfortable voting for a bunch of English Tories. That was when I said:

 

I suspect that a lot of people in Scotland who would be comfortable voting for a Merkel-ist party aren't comfortable voting for a bunch of English Tories.

 

Your own view of conservatism seems to be based on your view of the Conservative Party, which in turn seems to be based on an insular view of politics - a Scottish version of "little Englander" politics, as it were. Your earlier - inaccurate - tirade about conservatism being xenophobic, racist and anti-European demonstrates that. European Christian Democrats are not anti-European, racist or xenophobic, and espouse policies that a lot of Scottish people, not to mention quite a few SNP supporters, could quite comfortably support. My view is that an independent Scotland would have space for a popular right of centre political party, one that would be pro-European, socially centrist or liberal and with economic policies that were market-oriented and favouring lower taxation and public expenditure. Such a party, freed of being linked with the UK Tories, would prove popular with middle class and well-off Scots. Would it be the largest political party in Scotland? Maybe not, at least not for 3 or 4 elections. Would it become established with over 30% of the vote? Yes, and quite quickly, IMO.

 

My recollection of the 2011 Scottish Parliament election was that the SNP election campaign platform was generally centrist with the occasional right of centre foray. As I remember it the central policy planks of the campaign were:

 

* Continue the council tax freeze (right of centre)

* Clean energy development (centre)

* Keep police numbers high (sounds Tory-esque)

* Independence referendum (neither right, left, nor centre)

* Continue with free university fees (could be portrayed as right, centrist or left, depending on perspective)

 

To be honest, that reads like something one of the Irish "soft right" parties would produce as an election manifesto. So the notion that people voted in large numbers for the SNP in 2011 as a "left wing" party don't really stack up.

[Ulysses]

More people voted Tory here in the last general election than voted SNP in 2007 when they formed a minority government.

 

According to *ahem* Wikipedia, the Conservatives got 412,855 votes in the 2010 General Election in Scotland. In the 2007 Scottish Parliament election, the SNP got 664,227 votes in the constituency poll, and 633,401 in the regional poll.

[JamboX2]

 

Your own view of conservatism seems to be based on your view of the Conservative Party, which in turn seems to be based on an insular view of politics - a Scottish version of "little Englander" politics, as it were. Your earlier - inaccurate - tirade about conservatism being xenophobic, racist and anti-European demonstrates that. European Christian Democrats are not anti-European, racist or xenophobic, and espouse policies that a lot of Scottish people, not to mention quite a few SNP supporters, could quite comfortably support. My view is that an independent Scotland would have space for a popular right of centre political party, one that would be pro-European, socially centrist or liberal and with economic policies that were market-oriented and favouring lower taxation and public expenditure. Such a party, freed of being linked with the UK Tories, would prove popular with middle class and well-off Scots. Would it be the largest political party in Scotland? Maybe not, at least not for 3 or 4 elections. Would it become established with over 30% of the vote? Yes, and quite quickly, IMO.

 

My recollection of the 2011 Scottish Parliament election was that the SNP election campaign platform was generally centrist with the occasional right of centre foray. As I remember it the central policy planks of the campaign were:

 

* Continue the council tax freeze (right of centre)

* Clean energy development (centre)

* Keep police numbers high (sounds Tory-esque)

* Independence referendum (neither right, left, nor centre)

* Continue with free university fees (could be portrayed as right, centrist or left, depending on perspective)

 

To be honest, that reads like something one of the Irish "soft right" parties would produce as an election manifesto. So the notion that people voted in large numbers for the SNP in 2011 as a "left wing" party don't really stack up.

 

Basically what Murdo Fraser argued for in his failed leadership bid. If not a tad eurosceptic.

 

Apart from that everything you've said rings true to me about Scottish politics. It's no coincidence that modern SNP heartlands - predominantly rural Scotland, is the old Tory heartland. And yes it also goes hand in hand that the Tories up here between 07 and 11 were saying an SNP budget is as good as a Tory one. Scotland is not a bastion of left wing politics right now. It may once again be. But in 2007 the hung parliament extinguished the Rainbow Parliament, gave us very managerial achievements and the 2011 manifesto, as you said, is and the government it delivered is very soft right.

[Das Root]

Tongue in cheek, perhaps, but touches on something discussed earlier here:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/scotland-vote-yes-scottish-independence

 

 

Please, Scotland, vote Yes and take us northerners with you

 

I support Scottish independence because I'm sick of being English. How about a Greater Scotland, with a border just south of Blackpool?

 

 

Interesting view from an Englishman...

 

 

I really want Scotland to go for it. Those of us who live in the north of England look south and see the same thing. An England effectively shrunk to the Greater London area. It exists within the invisible forcefield of the M25, and these days is a cruel and surreal place. Much of it is owned and managed remotely by billionaires on the other side of the planet. The greed of absentee landlords crushing the life out of it. Centrifugal "market forces" flinging the poor out. Meanwhile, capitalism's own ruthless geology creates archipelagos of conspicuous wealth for the world's idle rich.

[Das Root]

 

 

Basically what Murdo Fraser argued for in his failed leadership bid. If not a tad eurosceptic.

 

Apart from that everything you've said rings true to me about Scottish politics. It's no coincidence that modern SNP heartlands - predominantly rural Scotland, is the old Tory heartland. And yes it also goes hand in hand that the Tories up here between 07 and 11 were saying an SNP budget is as good as a Tory one. Scotland is not a bastion of left wing politics right now. It may once again be. But in 2007 the hung parliament extinguished the Rainbow Parliament, gave us very managerial achievements and the 2011 manifesto, as you said, is and the government it delivered is very soft right.

 

 

And it shows you how bad Labour have become. If their grand dames are saying the SNP are to the left of Labour and you are saying the SNP are essentially the Tories.

 

Does that mean the Tories are more Labour than Labour are?

[Alba gu Brath]

Who said we were discussing conservatism in Europe? I didn't, so it's not at all clear why you feel the need to refer to it.

 

I've already said that I suspect that a lot of people in Scotland who would be comfortable voting for a Merkel-ist party aren't comfortable voting for a bunch of English Tories. That was when I said:

 

 

 

Your own view of conservatism seems to be based on your view of the Conservative Party, which in turn seems to be based on an insular view of politics - a Scottish version of "little Englander" politics, as it were. Your earlier - inaccurate - tirade about conservatism being xenophobic, racist and anti-European demonstrates that. European Christian Democrats are not anti-European, racist or xenophobic, and espouse policies that a lot of Scottish people, not to mention quite a few SNP supporters, could quite comfortably support. My view is that an independent Scotland would have space for a popular right of centre political party, one that would be pro-European, socially centrist or liberal and with economic policies that were market-oriented and favouring lower taxation and public expenditure. Such a party, freed of being linked with the UK Tories, would prove popular with middle class and well-off Scots. Would it be the largest political party in Scotland? Maybe not, at least not for 3 or 4 elections. Would it become established with over 30% of the vote? Yes, and quite quickly, IMO.

 

My recollection of the 2011 Scottish Parliament election was that the SNP election campaign platform was generally centrist with the occasional right of centre foray. As I remember it the central policy planks of the campaign were:

 

* Continue the council tax freeze (right of centre)

* Clean energy development (centre)

* Keep police numbers high (sounds Tory-esque)

* Independence referendum (neither right, left, nor centre)

* Continue with free university fees (could be portrayed as right, centrist or left, depending on perspective)

 

To be honest, that reads like something one of the Irish "soft right" parties would produce as an election manifesto. So the notion that people voted in large numbers for the SNP in 2011 as a "left wing" party don't really stack up.

 

Please. Go back and read what I wrote again.

 

Though to be fair, you did only call it a 'conservative streak' which is good. I can live with conservatism - from benign to offensive - only being a streak in our society.

[Boris]

9% consideration of a parliament or 100%.

Scotland's future in Tory hands or Scotland's future in Scotland's hands.

Spend billions on Trident storage and replacement, HS2 and Crossrail or infrastructure that you might actually use.

 

The choice is pretty straight forward to me.

 

Independence is no guarantee that trident will disappear.

 

What if a Lib/Lab coalition form the first government in an independent Scotland and keep it?

 

Still, I think independence does offer us a better prospect.

[Patrick Bateman]

Independence is no guarantee that trident will disappear.

 

What if a Lib/Lab coalition form the first government in an independent Scotland and keep it?

 

Still, I think independence does offer us a better prospect.

 

Aren't those parties supposed to be anti-nuclear? Either way, post-independence, they will cease to be controlled from London as they currently are. They'll be truly autonomous. Besides, I can't see Salmond or Sturgeon ever losing to Lamont, considering just how dreadful she is, and how much disarray Labour are currently in. Most people in Scotland are against these things being stored here, it's therefore inconceivable that we'd allow ourselves to remain the UK's nuclear dumping ground.

[Boris]

Aren't those parties supposed to be anti-nuclear? Either way, post-independence, they will cease to be controlled from London as they currently are. They'll be truly autonomous. Besides, I can't see Salmond or Sturgeon ever losing to Lamont, considering just how dreadful she is, and how much disarray Labour are currently in. Most people in Scotland are against these things being stored here, it's therefore inconceivable that we'd allow ourselves to remain the UK's nuclear dumping ground.

 

I don't disagree, but just saying that independence does not necessarily mean that Trident will go.

 

The first elections will be very interesting and, despite the last Holyrood elections, I'm not sure that the SNP would win a majority again.

[Patrick Bateman]

Here's Andrew Hughes-Hallet answering questions about the economics of Scottish independence, and offers some quite interesting views. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25151837

 

And, funnily enough, Mark Carney 'welcomes' currency talks about an independent Scotland. Strange that the media isn't broadcasting this... ahem. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25154758

[Das Root]

 

 

Independence is no guarantee that trident will disappear.

 

What if a Lib/Lab coalition form the first government in an independent Scotland and keep it?

 

Still, I think independence does offer us a better prospect.

 

 

I'm not sure they would. They would want to be seen to flex their independence from the Westminster parties and given getting rid of Trident was in the WP would they really want to go against that. Other parties could easily argue they are still under command of Westminster by keeping Trident in Scotland.

 

Faslane can be used for the new Scottish navy, maybe even as a port for running repairs to other NATO member vessels. Doesn't need to be rUK's sub base to still be in service.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/real-reason-for-sovereignty-is-lost-in-anti-tory-rhetoric.22831746

Great stuff from Torrence in today's Herald.

[Das Root]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/real-reason-for-sovereignty-is-lost-in-anti-tory-rhetoric.22831746

Great stuff from Torrence in today's Herald.

 

 

Why is it great?

[TheMaganator]

 

 

 

Why is it great?

Have you read it? No point in engaging if you're just going to do a 'lol, didn't read'.

[Das Root]

Have you read it? No point in engaging if you're just going to do a 'lol, didn't read'.

 

 

Of course I have read it. But given you posted the link, the honour's yours.

[Patrick Bateman]

Of course I have read it. But given you posted the link, the honour's yours.

 

I've noticed that unionist media will now accept views on a currency union from political irrelevances like John Major and Carywn Jones, but I haven't seen the BBC mention Mark Carney 'welcoming' discussions.

 

Why won't the british government seek clarification and declare on matters relating to a currency union or EU membership? Because that would be against their best interests. Does anyone think for a second that if they could get what they wanted, they would keep it to themselves?

[SE16 3LN]

I've noticed that unionist media will now accept views on a currency union from political irrelevances like John Major and Carywn Jones, but I haven't seen the BBC mention Mark Carney 'welcoming' discussions.

 

Why won't the british government seek clarification and declare on matters relating to a currency union or EU membership? Because that would be against their best interests. Does anyone think for a second that if they could get what they wanted, they would keep it to themselves?

Because that's for the yes campaign to do. They already have, didn't like the answer and now, like you, come out with veiled hints that its all a conspiracy hatched by the nasty people at Westminster.

[Patrick Bateman]

Because that's for the yes campaign to do. They already have, didn't like the answer and now, like you, come out with veiled hints that its all a conspiracy hatched by the nasty people at Westminster.

 

No, it really isn't. The UK Government can write to the EU to discuss altering treaties, the Scottish Government has no such power, because Scotland isn't a member state, yet. As I said, Mark Carney would 'welcome' discussions on a currency union and the UK Government has refused to confirm that there won't be one. Some people need to learn how to read between the lines.

 

And where's the conspiracy? The UK Government want Scotland to vote no, they will therefore do everything within their power to insure a no vote. Or do you think they're actually being impartial?

[Das Root]

Because that's for the yes campaign to do. They already have, didn't like the answer and now, like you, come out with veiled hints that its all a conspiracy hatched by the nasty people at Westminster.

 

 

Do you think that Scotland would be turfed out of the EU, or refused entry to NATO? Equally do you think rUK would really want any cross-border transactions in a foreign currency to Sterling? That's ?4.4bn per month...all those transactional fees and currency fluctuations sound just lovely, great news for money houses and bankers for sure.

 

Scotland has 25% of the EU's renewables, fish stocks, oil and gas...it's right on the Atlantic and surely the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation wouldn't want that nice big hole in their defensive perimeter?

 

How about rUK...if Scotland is getting turfed out then you would have to think rUK given it's now less in landmass, with a smaller population and less resources...might the EU be asking it to reapply too. It certainly won't get the same deal as before, other EU countries might be rather miffed about that.

 

They'll be all over us come independence day, making sure we are nicely snug and tucked back up in their respective clubs, that's 100% given. Everything today is just posturing. And everybody with any sense knows that.

[SE16 3LN]

No, it really isn't. The UK Government can write to the EU to discuss altering treaties, the Scottish Government has no such power, because Scotland isn't a member state, yet. As I said, Mark Carney would 'welcome' discussions on a currency union and the UK Government has refused to confirm that there won't be one. Some people need to learn how to read between the lines.

 

And where's the conspiracy? The UK Government want Scotland to vote no, they will therefore do everything within their power to insure a no vote. Or do you think they're actually being impartial?

Salmond has asked, they've said no. You must have read about this.

 

Of course the Govt. at Westminster support the Union. In my opinion they've been pretty restrained in expressing that view, but that's probably because they know the majority of rUK want a yes vote and they are aware it could be damaging to their own standing in England and Wales.

[Das Root]

 

Salmond has asked, they've said no. You must have read about this.

 

Of course the Govt. at Westminster support the Union. In my opinion they've been pretty restrained in expressing that view, but that's probably because they know the majority of rUK want a yes vote and they are aware it could be damaging to their own standing in England and Wales.

 

 

Could you link me to a confirmed statement supporting your view?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Das Root

[SE16 3LN]

Do you think that Scotland would be turfed out of the EU, or refused entry to NATO? Equally do you think rUK would really want any cross-border transactions in a foreign currency to Sterling? That's ?4.4bn per month...all those transactional fees and currency fluctuations sound just lovely, great news for money houses and bankers for sure.

 

Scotland has 25% of the EU's renewables, fish stocks, oil and gas...it's right on the Atlantic and surely the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation wouldn't want that nice big hole in their defensive perimeter?

 

How about rUK...if Scotland is getting turfed out then you would have to think rUK given it's now less in landmass, with a smaller population and less resources...might the EU be asking it to reapply too. It certainly won't get the same deal as before, other EU countries might be rather miffed about that.

 

They'll be all over us come independence day, making sure we are nicely snug and tucked back up in their respective clubs, that's 100% given. Everything today is just posturing. And everybody with any sense knows that.

I think your views represent the yes campaigns increasing dependence on their own sense of self importance to try and win arguments. People will probably vote on the facts they have in front of them regarding these issues which would seem to be the sensible thing to do. If your hoping that the miffed factor will change people's minds, you may be wrong, only time will tell.

[Das Root]

 

I think your views represent the yes campaigns increasing dependence on their own sense of self importance to try and win arguments. People will probably vote on the facts they have in front of them regarding these issues which would seem to be the sensible thing to do. If your hoping that the miffed factor will change people's minds, you may be wrong, only time will tell.

 

 

Is Scotland not that important then?

[SE16 3LN]

Is Scotland not that important then?

You seem to think its the centre of the universe around which all life revolves. I think its a bit of land the stops you getting you're feet wet, as all bits of land are.

[Coco]

No, it really isn't. The UK Government can write to the EU to discuss altering treaties, the Scottish Government has no such power, because Scotland isn't a member state, yet. As I said, Mark Carney would 'welcome' discussions on a currency union and the UK Government has refused to confirm that there won't be one. Some people need to learn how to read between the lines.

 

And where's the conspiracy? The UK Government want Scotland to vote no, they will therefore do everything within their power to insure a no vote. Or do you think they're actually being impartial?

 

Is the Carney stuff any more than a polite invitation to discuss something which might happen? It is unlikely to be the role of a central banker to rule out a currency union, however daft it is.

 

I'm enjoying this 'refusing to rule out' stuff - when of course no Parliament can bind another. And all the major parties have said they wouldn't want one.

[Coco]

Do you think that Scotland would be turfed out of the EU, or refused entry to NATO? Equally do you think rUK would really want any cross-border transactions in a foreign currency to Sterling? That's ?4.4bn per month...all those transactional fees and currency fluctuations sound just lovely, great news for money houses and bankers for sure.

 

Scotland has 25% of the EU's renewables, fish stocks, oil and gas...it's right on the Atlantic and surely the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation wouldn't want that nice big hole in their defensive perimeter?

 

How about rUK...if Scotland is getting turfed out then you would have to think rUK given it's now less in landmass, with a smaller population and less resources...might the EU be asking it to reapply too. It certainly won't get the same deal as before, other EU countries might be rather miffed about that.

 

They'll be all over us come independence day, making sure we are nicely snug and tucked back up in their respective clubs, that's 100% given. Everything today is just posturing. And everybody with any sense knows that.

 

Why haven't we joined the Euro if transactions costs are an important factor?

 

Haven't Belgium joined Spain in saying that Scotland would likely have to apply from outwith to join the EU?

[Das Root]

 

 

Is the Carney stuff any more than a polite invitation to discuss something which might happen? It is unlikely to be the role of a central banker to rule out a currency union, however daft it is.

 

I'm enjoying this 'refusing to rule out' stuff - when of course no Parliament can bind another. And all the major parties have said they wouldn't want one.

 

 

Well not really, plenty of folk have said unlikely, nobody has ruled it out.

 

It will happen. rUK will be all over it after the Yes vote like a fat kid on a smartie.

[Das Root]

 

 

Why haven't we joined the Euro if transactions costs are an important factor?

 

Haven't Belgium joined Spain in saying that Scotland would likely have to apply from outwith to join the EU?

 

 

Would that be Belgium who are essentially two groups of people who speak two languages shoehorned into one country. That Belgium?

 

Both Belgium and Spain have their own Scotland looking to go it alone, I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise that they have come out and made up this super amount of bullshit to cover their own asses.

[Coco]

Would that be Belgium who are essentially two groups of people who speak two languages shoehorned into one country. That Belgium?

 

Both Belgium and Spain have their own Scotland looking to go it alone, I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise that they have come out and made up this super amount of bullshit to cover their own asses.

 

But the process is quite clear then. No unanimity in the European Council means that there is no negotiation from within.

 

And thus no rebate. So how much is this Scottish economic powerhouse going to have to pay to join the European club?

Edited December 2, 2013 by Coco

[Coco]

Well not really, plenty of folk have said unlikely, nobody has ruled it out.

 

It will happen. rUK will be all over it after the Yes vote like a fat kid on a smartie.

 

Hopefully the central bankers and politicians will have learned from the stupidity of the Euro setup - when the same arguments about transactions costs and the likes were aired.

[The People's Chimp]

Of course I have read it. But given you posted the link, the honour's yours.

 

It is an interesting article. Clearly appealing to some (quasi mythical) set of 'scottish values' and anti-toryism will win Yes votes, especially among many one time labour voters, so he asks an interesting question. As a firm believer in Independence, what are your views on it? "what was the argument for independence between 1945-51 when a Labour administration with a majority of Scottish seats was building the New Jerusalem?"

[Patrick Bateman]

Business for Scotland contacted a number of UK embassies to see what their plans to celebrate St Andrews day were. Not a single one they contacted had any. Is this one of the benefits of being part of the much heralded 'network of embassies' that we pay towards? http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scotlands-exporters-let-down-by-uk-embassy-network/ The idea that Scotland's interests are best promoted in this way is ridiculous.

[Das Root]

But the process is quite clear then. No unanimity in the European Council means that there is no negotiation from within.

 

And thus no rebate. So how much is this Scottish economic powerhouse going to have to pay to join the European club?

 

 

And how much is rUK going to lose of their rebate? Maybe we should say to Spain..."we'll side with you on getting Gibraltar back"...I'm sure that would help move things along.

 

No chance the EU would ditch Scotland just to keep two other members happy. And say if Germany decide we're in? The rest will be told to bolt.

 

It's simply all posturing, after independence these positions will quickly change.

[Das Root]

Superficial, petty, grudge-based politics Patrick, aye?

 

Try 25 January, Scotland's real national day, if any. I mean, saints and such are a bit hocus-pocus are they not?

 

 

Says the guy living in uber Catholic country Spain. Do you not take part in any of the festivities or embrace local culture? I wonder if you would mention to the folk there it's all "a bit hocus-pocus"...

[Ulysses]

Please. Go back and read what I wrote again.

 

Why? Have you edited it since so that it is less insular in its appearance?

 

 

Though to be fair, you did only call it a 'conservative streak' which is good. I can live with conservatism - from benign to offensive - only being a streak in our society.

 

If Scotland votes for independence - which it seems at this time it will not - that conservative streak will lead you to be living with a conservative government with liberal/centre support sooner than you realise. Anyone who thinks that an independent Scotland would be some kind of uniquely left-wing corner of the world is kidding themselves. It shouldn't matter, by the way, but it does to some people - and it is a daft reason for voting either Yes or No.