Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Coco]

So basically Scotland is going to see some heavy duty squeezing to budgets if we remain in the union and Westminster could just shut everything down if they wanted to?

 

Sounds great, I'm changing my mind to No

 

If and when John Swinney's GrowthAndProductivity button doesn't work - are the austerity measures going to taste any better?

[Alba gu Brath]

Interesting.

 

 

Very interesting actually as neither the Telegrapho nor Fraser Nelson are given to talking up independence.

 

It's coming yet for aw that.

[Alba gu Brath]

Ditto....

 

[jack D and coke]

Couple of interesting articles for folk to read.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/independent-scotland-britons-salmond-moderate-social-democracy?CMP=twt_gu

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/if-i-were-young-and-scottish-i-would-vote-yes-to-independence-8970579.html

 

[JamboGraham]

Quite enjoying reading the debate on here (in fact it is one of the few places where debate on this subject seems to be taking place).

 

Interested that many 'Yes' voters feel the need for 'No' to present a counter offer/package to the white paper. The 'No' argument would surely be that things will stay the same? I see the 'Yes' campaign as rightly having more work to do in presenting an offer/package as they are offering a change.

 

Also, interesting that many 'Yes' campaigners are arguing that we (Scots) are currently not represented at Westminster, but frustratingly for the 'Yes' campaign this will only hit home if someone already feels that the will of the UK is different from the will of Scotland. If they feel the latter then they are probably already planning to vote 'Yes'.

 

I found the white paper to be an interesting vision statement but I think there has to be a number of statements to come during the campaign declaring what is fact and a certainty should the result be 'Yes'. This would of course be a smaller document but unfortunately with so many 'ifs', 'buts' and 'maybes' in the white paper it makes me intrigued, but also nervous.

[Das Root]

 

 

If and when John Swinney's GrowthAndProductivity button doesn't work - are the austerity measures going to taste any better?

 

 

Why wouldnt it work? Everybody can't be as ineffectual as Osborne or Brown.

[Coco]

Why wouldnt it work? Everybody can't be as ineffectual as Osborne or Brown.

 

Year 1 - lets say Swinney faces a deficit of 5% of GDP and a higher risk premium than UK borrowing.

 

His response - higher productivity from a higher female participation rate due to 'free' childcare. Even assuming that there are jobs for these emancipated people who are desperate to leave their children with childminders how much of that deficit is that going to cover? In year 1.

[Das Root]

Quite enjoying reading the debate on here (in fact it is one of the few places where debate on this subject seems to be taking place).

 

Interested that many 'Yes' voters feel the need for 'No' to present a counter offer/package to the white paper. The 'No' argument would surely be that things will stay the same? I see the 'Yes' campaign as rightly having more work to do in presenting an offer/package as they are offering a change.

 

Also, interesting that many 'Yes' campaigners are arguing that we (Scots) are currently not represented at Westminster, but frustratingly for the 'Yes' campaign this will only hit home if someone already feels that the will of the UK is different from the will of Scotland. If they feel the latter then they are probably already planning to vote 'Yes'.

 

I found the white paper to be an interesting vision statement but I think there has to be a number of statements to come during the campaign declaring what is fact and a certainty should the result be 'Yes'. This would of course be a smaller document but unfortunately with so many 'ifs', 'buts' and 'maybes' in the white paper it makes me intrigued, but also nervous.

 

 

Look at it in a business perspective. I have a supplier, used them for years. Some good, some bad, but they're the only supplier who sells what I need.

 

In comes another supplier offer new terms, a new deal.

 

Shouldn't I expect my current supplier to try to entice me to stay with them...can't be a case of I'm expected to stay just because I've been with them for years.

 

No should be fighting for votes based upon how great the UK is, not just because Scotland is currently part of it.

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

So what you are saying is, as the Tories won nothing in Scotland, the PM of the Uk does not represent Scotland at all given he is the leader of a party with no mandate here as nobody voted for them?

 

As a coalition 16 seats from Scotland voted for his government. However as a UK government they won most UK seats. Devolution corrects that imbalance. Where what powers lie in that construct is open to debate imi.

[Das Root]

 

 

Year 1 - lets say Swinney faces a deficit of 5% of GDP and a higher risk premium than UK borrowing.

 

His response - higher productivity from a higher female participation rate due to 'free' childcare. Even assuming that there are jobs for these emancipated people who are desperate to leave their children with childminders how much of that deficit is that going to cover? In year 1.

 

And that's exactly how things will happen?

[Das Root]

 

 

As a coalition 16 seats from Scotland voted for his government. However as a UK government they won most UK seats. Devolution corrects that imbalance. Where what powers lie in that construct is open to debate imi.

 

 

Were we not talking about the Tories only...I'm positive it was Tories only. Whitney and all that.

[JamboX2]

How about something revolutionary like... the Scottish Government decides where every penny raised in Scotland is spent? Can someone explain why Scotland *shouldn't* be in charge of its own finances, given that Westminster has squandered the UK's as a whole? They do a lot of risk sharing on our behalf, with the rewards being seen in The City in London. Funny that.

 

Equally why should currency and interest rates be left to the same institutions who will always factor in highly the City and London property prices into setting rates and Sterling's value. Industry in the UK requires more subsidy due to a system benefiting the City and mortgage bubbles. If independence is to re-industrialise Scotland then we need control over those issues.

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

Were we not talking about the Tories only...I'm positive it was Tories only. Whitney and all that.

 

Aye 1 Tory. 15 Lib Dems. This is a Coalition. Not a single party. Both need considered.

[Das Root]

 

 

Aye 1 Tory. 15 Lib Dems. This is a Coalition. Not a single party. Both need considered.

 

 

Not when you were discussing Cameron being a Tory leader representing Whitney it doesn't. The Lib Dems are an irrelevance in this (and other things).

 

So with only the Tories in the mix, what then?

[Patrick Bateman]

As a coalition 16 seats from Scotland voted for his government. However as a UK government they won most UK seats. Devolution corrects that imbalance. Where what powers lie in that construct is open to debate imi.

 

I've countered this nonsense point before. Devolution offers partial defence from the unelected Westminster government, but they decide how much money we have. If we want to spend money on building schools and hospitals, and the Tories want to spend money on bullets and bombs, our needs come secondary to that. If and when they decide to cut our 'grant' (Where we pay more than we get back from the Treasury, it's strange to call it that) Again, no amount of sophistry can escape the fact that devolution only offers a degree of protection and that Westminster controls our purse strings.

[luckydug]

 

 

 

I suppose that some of the generation (still with us) who fought or lived through the Second World War would appreciate the strength of the Union at that time.

 

I did not agree with Labour's warlust but there is a school of thought that they were an attempt at being a kind of world policeman. Would we rather that the Scottish troops were not involved in Sierra Leone or Kosovo?

 

 

 

That point is totally irrelevant to the Independence debate.

 

You must really have a low opinion of the Scottish people if you think that the Scottish Government would sit back and do nothing in the event of a mad dictator trying to take on the world as happened in WW2.

[Coco]

 

You can view it as irrelevant if you wish.

[luckydug]

 

 

 

As a coalition 16 seats from Scotland voted for his government. However as a UK government they won most UK seats. Devolution corrects that imbalance. Where what powers lie in that construct is open to debate imi.

 

 

But they did not fight the election as a coalition.

Do you honestly believe that all those that voted Lib Dem would have willingly voted for a conservative dominated coalition ?

[jambos are go!]

Did anyone see This Week on after Question Time last night. Michael Portillo saying Big Eck has lost his nerve and now wants Devo Max. Portillo spent a lot of time with Big Eck during the Holyrood elections. Its on the Iplayer.

 

Reading this thread after a couple of days I see the much awaited White Paper has virtually sunk without trace after a mauling throughout the media.So its now ignored. I'm going to try and read it all next week .

 

There will be a new set of polls shortly and we'll see. YES should and must see some sort of bounce in support IMO

Edited November 29, 2013 by jambos are go!

[Das Root]

Did anyone see This Week on after Question Time last night. I Michael Portillo saying Big Eck has lost his nerve and now wants Devo Max. Portillo spent a lot of time with Big Eck during the Holyrood elections. Its on the Iplayer.

 

Reading this thread after a couple of days I see the much awaited White Paper has virtually sunk without trace after a mauling throughout the media.So its now ignored. I'm going to try and read it all next week .

 

There will be a new set of polls shortly and we'll see. YES should and must see some sort of bounce in support IMO

 

 

Portillo was spawned from the same mould as Thatcher, Scotland should know it's place according to him.

 

The WP has sunk without trace? Ha, sure it has

[Ulysses]

There will be a new set of polls shortly and we'll see. YES should and must see some sort of bounce in support IMO

 

Correct, IMO.

 

The Yes campaign has been completely lacklustre, and the launch of the White Paper is surely the biggest opportunity there will be to reboot the campaign. If there is a bounce then it's game on, but if not it's difficult to see how the No lead in the polls will be reduced.

[Das Root]

 

 

Correct, IMO.

 

The Yes campaign has been completely lacklustre, and the launch of the White Paper is surely the biggest opportunity there will be to reboot the campaign. If there is a bounce then it's game on, but if not it's difficult to see how the No lead in the polls will be reduced.

 

 

There's 10mths to go and plenty of events in 2014 to tip the balance in the favour of Yes.

[Coco]

There's 10mths to go and plenty of events in 2014 to tip the balance in the favour of Yes.

 

Correct. I also expect that the debate will be shifted from the managerial to the emotional.

[Patrick Bateman]

 

 

Correct. I also expect that the debate will be shifted from the managerial to the emotional.

 

The tagline 'Scotland's future in Scotland's hands' marries both of those ideas. I expect it to feature heavily from now on.

[Das Root]

 

 

Correct. I also expect that the debate will be shifted from the managerial to the emotional.

 

 

Yep I agree. WP was the instruction manual, now onto more emotive and aspirational things.

[Alba gu Brath]

Correct, IMO.

 

The Yes campaign has been completely lacklustre, and the launch of the White Paper is surely the biggest opportunity there will be to reboot the campaign. If there is a bounce then it's game on, but if not it's difficult to see how the No lead in the polls will be reduced.

 

Should be remembered that the White Paper is a party political document and a consitutional one.

 

To respond to Jambox2 above -

 

Yes, Clegg and Cameron do represent Scotland as part of the UK. This is why one of them should have the baws to debate openly with Salmond on independence. Both are represented, albeit by a minority, of Scottish voters too.

 

No. Devolution is only a partial answer to the democratic imbalance. Independence would see us on equal terms.

[Alba gu Brath]

Should be remembered that the White Paper is a party political document and a consitutional one.

 

To respond to Jambox2 above -

 

Yes, Clegg and Cameron do represent Scotland as part of the UK. This is why one of them should have the baws to debate openly with Salmond on independence. Both are represented, albeit by a minority, of Scottish voters too. Though it should be remembered that the 'we didn't vote for them' argument was first aired by Labour and Lib Dems, with the SNP, during the pro-devo campaign.

 

No. Devolution is only a partial answer to the democratic imbalance. Independence would see us on equal terms.

[Alba gu Brath]

Did anyone see This Week on after Question Time last night. Michael Portillo saying Big Eck has lost his nerve and now wants Devo Max. Portillo spent a lot of time with Big Eck during the Holyrood elections. Its on the Iplayer.

 

Reading this thread after a couple of days I see the much awaited White Paper has virtually sunk without trace after a mauling throughout the media.So its now ignored. I'm going to try and read it all next week .

 

There will be a new set of polls shortly and we'll see. YES should and must see some sort of bounce in support IMO

 

Not really. It's reached the English press at least. This from today's Guardian:

 

In itself, the fat policy manual isn't revolutionary. Scotland's Future is a sturdy, sensible, well-written catalogue of aspirations ? all of them achievable with luck and skill. But what's so exhilarating is the flock of many-coloured hopes gathering behind this project, like seabirds in the wake of a working trawler. Scotland's departure from the union could mean all kinds of liberations and reinventions for the islanders who live under the crown.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/independent-scotland-britons-salmond-moderate-social-democracy?CMP=twt_gu

[IMA MAROON]

The White Paper is only for winning votes it will be in the bin as soon as the vote is over. It is such a farce. Just a joke. Everybody knows.

[IMA MAROON]

Will the patriots be marching to Bannockburn next year? Anything planned? That could win votes. Show how Scottish they are. Remind voters about the English.

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

 

But they did not fight the election as a coalition.

Do you honestly believe that all those that voted Lib Dem would have willingly voted for a conservative dominated coalition ?

 

No coalition in the UK (devo included) since the National government of the 1930s have run in an election as such. Democracy delivered a hung parliament. A minority government wasn't deemed an option. Two parties came together to govern. Many Labour and LibDems voters didnt want two coalitions post-devo, but it happened. You elect and leave them to it under our system.

[Das Root]

 

 

No coalition in the UK (devo included) since the National government of the 1930s have run in an election as such. Democracy delivered a hung parliament. A minority government wasn't deemed an option. Two parties came together to govern. Many Labour and LibDems voters didnt want two coalitions post-devo, but it happened. You elect and leave them to it under our system.

 

 

Ok so the Lib Dems have some sort of mandate to govern maybe as they won a few seats, the Tories zero but really Scotland was delivered a parliament chosen by England.

 

Cameron doesn't actually have any mandate to govern Scotland but as UK PM should debate with Scotland's FM as he tries to defend the union...not that he needs or cares about Scottish people as he never gets any votes from them.

 

If Scotland does leave the Union it won't make any difference to his re-election prospects anyway, so as long as they can secure a decent deal in the breakup it's all a bit meh to Cameron and the Tories as they push for a Euro exit in 2017 and try to fight off UKIP from nabbing their more rabid party members.

[Das Root]

 

 

Not really. It's reached the English press at least. This from today's Guardian:

 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/independent-scotland-britons-salmond-moderate-social-democracy?CMP=twt_gu

 

 

 

Interesting...

 

 

Much the same applies to the apparently fearsome rebuttals to Salmond's document. On inspection, they are nine parts bluff. What makes cheeky Salmond think an independent Scotland would be allowed to use the pound, or enter the EU, or be admitted to Nato? Well, the answer is another question: "if it comes to it", what sort of Scotland do you want as a neighbour? Does London seriously want to force a currency frontier at the border and screw up trade with England's second biggest partner? Does Brussels really want to expel a loyal member and accelerate the EU's disintegration? Does Nato want a new hole on its east Atlantic flank? No, if the Scottish people do vote yes in September (which is still unlikely), healthy opportunism will cobble up solutions to all these problems.

[2NaFish]

The White Paper is only for winning votes it will be in the bin as soon as the vote is over. It is such a farce. Just a joke. Everybody knows.

 

Will the patriots be marching to Bannockburn next year? Anything planned? That could win votes. Show how Scottish they are. Remind voters about the English.

 

This is a thread for serious debate. I quite enjoy the serious debate. If you want a serious debate, please stay. If you're only interested in stuff like the above, please keep it to yourself or somewhere else where it may be welcome.

Edited November 29, 2013 by 2NaFish

[Das Root]

 

 

Not really. It's reached the English press at least. This from today's Guardian:

 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/independent-scotland-britons-salmond-moderate-social-democracy?CMP=twt_gu

 

 

And, this one will hurt some on here

 

It hurts to laugh at some of history's jokes, but here's one: in spite of itself, the SNP is the most truly British party in these islands.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Das Root

[JamboX2]

 

 

Not really. It's reached the English press at least. This from today's Guardian:

 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/29/independent-scotland-britons-salmond-moderate-social-democracy?CMP=twt_gu

 

I thought it a good article. The newstatesman ran a good one as well -

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/scottish-independence-white-paper-passed-political-test

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/why-scottish-independence-isnt-progressive-choice

[Das Root]

 

 

I thought it a good article. The newstatesman ran a good one as well -

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/scottish-independence-white-paper-passed-political-test

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/why-scottish-independence-isnt-progressive-choice

 

 

Is there anything Scotland could do to make the UK a fairer place to live for all? I doubt it unless London is willing to change and spread it's power northwards.

 

Interesting points made in the first article.

[JamboX2]

Is there anything Scotland could do to make the UK a fairer place to live for all? I doubt it unless London is willing to change and spread it's power northwards.

 

Interesting points made in the first article.

 

Maxwell's article (the first one) should be considerd by many in this vote. His points on the currency position and the effects that'll have for the economic policies of the Scottish Government are very important.

 

As I've said consistently, if you view independence as a chance for real substantial economic change, then currency union doesn't fit that. The compact will be a straightjacket and in my opinion unworkable as it's undemocratic. And yet, the Finance Secretary says it must be a permanent thing to work, ruling out any idea this is temporary or short to medium term. For me it's a non-starter.

[Das Root]

 

 

Maxwell's article (the first one) should be considerd by many in this vote. His points on the currency position and the effects that'll have for the economic policies of the Scottish Government are very important.

 

As I've said consistently, if you view independence as a chance for real substantial economic change, then currency union doesn't fit that. The compact will be a straightjacket and in my opinion unworkable as it's undemocratic. And yet, the Finance Secretary says it must be a permanent thing to work, ruling out any idea this is temporary or short to medium term. For me it's a non-starter.

 

It will be a ten year commitment, nothing more.

[JamboX2]

 

 

It will be a ten year commitment, nothing more.

 

Seriously doubt it. For such things to work and be credible to the markets it'll need to be a cast iron political commitment. Otherwise it'll be viewed as a lukewarm alliance in which both parties are uncommitted to doing whatever it takes to maintain it. In fairness to the Eurozone they are willing to do all it takes.

[Das Root]

 

 

Seriously doubt it. For such things to work and be credible to the markets it'll need to be a cast iron political commitment. Otherwise it'll be viewed as a lukewarm alliance in which both parties are uncommitted to doing whatever it takes to maintain it. In fairness to the Eurozone they are willing to do all it takes.

 

 

I disagree. With a ten year commitment the markets know exactly the term while Scotlans can introduce their new currency on a known timeframe.

[syndicalist]

Is there anything Scotland could do to make the UK a fairer place to live for all? I doubt it unless London is willing to change and spread it's power northwards.

 

Interesting points made in the first article.

London has the highest rates of poverty in the UK. 80% of people living on the living wage live in London. If you are sick and living on a low wage in London you have to pay ?7.50 for a prescription, if you're a millionaire in Scotland your prescription is free. If you are paid the minimum wage in London you have to pay your children's tuition fees which means your children don't go in to higher education. If you're a millionaire in Scotland your children's tuition fees are free. Still you claim London has the power. Vote yes and pay your own way.

[Ulysses]

I thought it a good article.

 

I did as well. It was interesting to see someone other than me acknowledging the strong conservative streak in the Scottish body politic that would be able to reassert itself if it didn't have to be identified with southern English Toryism. I do not buy the idea that Scotland is more leftist or more social democratic than England.

[Ulysses]

London has the highest rates of poverty in the UK.

 

Good shout. Ken Livingstone used to point this fact out regularly. It didn't make him popular in certain quarters, but that didn't make him wrong.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

I disagree. With a ten year commitment the markets know exactly the term while Scotlans can introduce their new currency on a known timeframe.

Couple of issues with a ten year commitment (not the timeframe length).

 

1. It will lock Scotland into a similar deficit reduction path as the rest of the UK. Swinney may argue that Scotland grows faster than the rest of the UK to offset cuts but that is neither provable nor disprovable. That would cause idiots like Eddi Reader to seethe.

 

2. Since Osborne seems to want to repeat Brown's mistakes, another financial crash in London drags Scotland straight back in.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Gorgiewave]

I did as well. It was interesting to see someone other than me acknowledging the strong conservative streak in the Scottish body politic that would be able to reassert itself if it didn't have to be identified with southern English Toryism. I do not buy the idea that Scotland is more leftist or more social democratic than England.

 

Neither do I. This is, as they say in Spanish, "a truth as big as a cathderal". The starting point of the independence movement has been the alleged essential difference between Scotland and England, yet the proposals summarised in James Maxwell's articles are little more than a boring middle-of-the-road, not remotely radical election pledge.

 

"The headline pitch - to provide 1140 hours of free care to all Scottish three and four years olds by 2024". Well that's fine by me, but that's the "headline pitch"? This is like an alcoholic drug addict hell-raiser with 100 convictions saying "I've totally turned my life around: I now eat an apple a day". Well, that's good, but it's not turning anybody's life around.

 

I'll receive my copy of the proposals on Thursday and I hope to read it over the weekend.

[Das Root]

 

 

Neither do I. This is, as they say in Spanish, "a truth as big as a cathderal". The starting point of the independence movement has been the alleged essential difference between Scotland and England, yet the proposals summarised in James Maxwell's articles are little more than a boring middle-of-the-road, not remotely radical election pledge.

 

"The headline pitch - to provide 1140 hours of free care to all Scottish three and four years olds by 2024". Well that's fine by me, but that's the "headline pitch"? This is like an alcoholic drug addict hell-raiser with 100 convictions saying "I've totally turned my life around: I now eat an apple a day". Well, that's good, but it's not turning anybody's life around.

 

I'll receive my copy of the proposals on Thursday and I hope to read it over the weekend.

 

 

What does it matter, you can't vote

[Das Root]

 

Couple of issues with a ten year commitment (not the timeframe length).

 

1. It will lock Scotland into a similar deficit reduction path as the rest of the UK. Swinney may argue that Scotland grows faster than the rest of the UK to offset cuts but that is neither provable nor disprovable. That would cause idiots like Eddi Reader to seethe.

 

2. Since Osborne seems to want to repeat Brown's mistakes, another financial crash in London drags Scotland straight back in.

 

 

Would this not have been considered?

[Das Root]

 

London has the highest rates of poverty in the UK. 80% of people living on the living wage live in London. If you are sick and living on a low wage in London you have to pay ?7.50 for a prescription, if you're a millionaire in Scotland your prescription is free. If you are paid the minimum wage in London you have to pay your children's tuition fees which means your children don't go in to higher education. If you're a millionaire in Scotland your children's tuition fees are free. Still you claim London has the power. Vote yes and pay your own way.

 

 

If London doesn't have the power isn't that a far greater representation as to why the union is broken? Their power house, their bastion of progress and success is a place where the havenots have even less than in other regions...and these places are considered less affluent than London itself.

[2NaFish]

The starting point of the independence movement has been the alleged essential difference between Scotland and England

 

No it's not. You tried this once. You were wrong. Please stop trying to sell this as something more than it is. It's just tawdry.