The Rangers soap opera goes on and on.

[Jamdub]

THEY LET THEIR CLUB DIE !!!

 

They Arra Peepul !!!

[Alva-Jambo]

Good grief  its impossible to go over all today's posts here. One that seems clear  Barry Eff, is fecked for a million,

but I dont blame him personally as he and his bro are dimwits  and hope he has the cash so he doesn't  lose his family's house. 

[Justin Z]

Excellently put, and all factually correct.

 

As we've already seen ad nauseam, this matters not even a jot.

[Mysterion]

Good grief its impossible to go over all today's posts here. One that seems clear Barry Eff, is fecked for a million,

but I dont blame him personally as he and his bro are dimwits and hope he has the cash so he doesn't lose his family's house.

Whilst you don't want to see anyone lose their house it is not unreasonable to expect Barry Backpass to downsize to pay his debt to society - unless of course he has information that suggests all tax responsibilies were with Rangers Football Club (not any Ltd co - just Rangers Football club).

 

As we all know Rangers football club is omnipotent, righteous and apparently never ceased operations by all accounts - they'll pay the debts for these players if it comes to it.

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Mysterion

[luckydug]

 

But not something our knuckle dragging troll would ever acknowledge.

 

Next season will be a treat having these scumbags even worse than usual with their sectarian songbook polluting our beautiful city and ground. 

 

We should cut them down to ONE section. There is nothing they could do about it. Then do the same with Celtic.

That would let them know how much we want or need them.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Guy comes on here threatening "revenge" against Hearts fans and he's still around. Hibs fan saying that would have been punted long ago. Tired of this joker now.

[Unknown user]

Socialists are only Socialists when it suits them, as is the Socialist media.

Let's keep that shite off this thread please, especially as I nearly bust a stitch laughing at the Record being described as socialist!

[Unknown user]

Whilst you don't want to see anyone lose their house it is not unreasonable to expect Barry Backpass to downsize to pay his debt to society - unless of course he has information that suggests all tax responsibilies were with Rangers Football Club (not any Ltd co - just Rangers Football club).

 

As we all know Rangers football club is omnipotent, righteous and apparently never ceased operations by all accounts - they'll pay the debts for these players if it comes to it.

 

It's quite a situation - on one hand, who honestly thinks someone like Bazza has the brains to think over the top of a pro's advice? Is he even actually smart enough to be accountable?

I feel for anyone who's in danger of losing their home, even if they've been privileged.

 

On the other hand, if this was any one of us, the tax man would be wanting his money, no matter what - you don't get away with paying your taxes just because it's been a while or you got bad advice.

[i wish jj was my dad]

I have absolutely no sympathy for wealthy individuals like Ferguson and co if they do come a cropper with this.  It's hardly the same as a plumber or a joiner doing the odd job on the side to feed the kids.

 

Might see some MBEs and knighthoods stripped as well?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Guy comes on here threatening "revenge" against Hearts fans and he's still around. Hibs fan saying that would have been punted long ago. Tired of this joker now.

 

 

"and all set to gate-crash the love-in with revenge the order of the day. Tick tock. I can't wait"

 

The inference I read here is that the harmony and peacefulness which exists between most of the clubs and their fans is about to be shattered or "gate-crashed" with "revenge the order of the day", he then finishes the statement by saying that he supports the said "gate-crashing" and "revenge" by stating that the clock is ticking and that he can't wait.

 

A clear threat is being made here that "revenge" will be exacted upon the "love-in" which exists at the moment.

 

Just what form this "gate-crashing" & "revenge" manifests itself will remain to be seen, but a clear threat has been made nonetheless.

[The Mighty Thor]

Are we all going to get our cyber windaes tanned by our resident flat earther?[emoji38]

[milky_26]

Are we all going to get our cyber windaes tanned by our resident flat earther?[emoji38]

more likely licked clean

[Shanks]

The foam coming out of the Rangers hordes mouths and the sheer anger and despair in their eyes when we started singing 'you let your club die'. 1st game of last season at ibrox, told me that in their hearts they know that they done nothing to save their club and are now following a tribute act.

 

They know it and it hurts.

[Daydream Believer]

I have absolutely no sympathy for wealthy individuals like Ferguson and co if they do come a cropper with this.  It's hardly the same as a plumber or a joiner doing the odd job on the side to feed the kids.

 

Might see some MBEs and knighthoods stripped as well?

 

OK maybe not to feed his kids, but it's pretty much the same as a plumber doing an odd job on the side to buy a holiday or a new car. Both of them know what they're doing. The real difference is that the plumber tends to pay the bill and the penalty when he gets caught rather than whine about it for a years on end and decide that it's all a giant conspiracy.

[jamboz]

As a more reasonable, engaging and literate hun Bryce still can't help let his true colours show. Speaks volumes about them mentality of the Huns,

[gogsfaesydney]

Celtic are a provincial club.

 

Yup Bryce should maybe have a look at the meaning of provincial

[269miles]

I said it before the players will end up suing their agents for poor advice given in accepting these arrangements. I wonder if recent bankruptcies with well known agents could relate to concerns that this is about to happen.

The players will be lucky not to be jailed for tax fraud. They signed side letters and they knew why. 

[Paolo]

The players will be lucky not to be jailed for tax fraud. They signed side letters and they knew why.

Ultimately, it is the individual who is responsible of ensuring they pay the correct tax.

[Seymour M Hersh]

As a more reasonable, engaging and literate hun Bryce still can't help let his true colours show. Speaks volumes about them mentality of the Huns,

 

Not just them but the other cheek as well. If you've ever had reason to deal with professionals (Lawyers or Accountants) in Glasgow you'll notice everything comes back to Rangers & Celtic and proddy and cafflik.  Sectarianism is endemic in Glasgow society from street cleaners up to and including QC's and Judges. 

[Chaps]

.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

The players will be lucky not to be jailed for tax fraud. They signed side letters and they knew why. 

 

Faced with the prospect of jail time if they can't afford to pay the tax back, one or more will opt to spill the beans on the whole internal shenanigans that was endemic within Ibrox during the EBT era.

 

Wait for the copies of documents which were thought to have been shredded starting to appear.

[Mikey1874]

Bryce does us all a service by clearing stating the thoughts of the Rangers fans

 

Decent effort and contribution.

 

Still funny though that the 'hard' Rangers fans cant stand other fans ridiculing them.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Mikey1874

[The Future's Maroon]

As a more reasonable, engaging and literate hun Bryce still can't help let his true colours show. Speaks volumes about them mentality of the Huns,

 

Yep, spot on.

 

 

As an aside, I was speaking with a Sevco fan last night about the whole old/new club thing...the only reply he would give me is "so UEFA is wrong and you are right" - that was his full argument, he couldn't and wouldn't discuss it further and ended up walking away in a huff, its just like....

 

[john brownlee]

Faced with the prospect of jail time if they can't afford to pay the tax back, one or more will opt to spill the beans on the whole internal shenanigans that was endemic within Ibrox during the EBT era.

 

Wait for the copies of documents which were thought to have been shredded starting to appear.

I posted at the very beginning of this saga that the individual is responsible for the payment of tax and NI.

Well over thirty years ago I worked for a company who in all scenes of the word was paying the employees tax and NI to the inland revenue. A year of payslips to prove it or so we thought, but no amount of documents we had to say we had already paid our dues, if the monies are not received by the IR the tax has not been paid.. I along with the others were put on emergency tax. The shoit bag that gained the extra cash from 15 employees over the period of time got of Scot free. As the IR said it was our responsibility to make sure out tax was paid and correct. He didn't steal from the government he stole from us.

Maybe things have changed nowadays. But I think der Hun will get away with it and the mugs (players)will be the ones to fork out the cash/punishment.

Slightly different I know but still the same as the IR didn't get the money due.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[The Future's Maroon]

I posted at the very beginning of this saga that the individual is responsible for the payment of tax and NI.

Well over thirty years ago I worked for a company who in all scenes of the word was paying the employees tax and NI to the inland revenue. A year of payslips to prove it or so we thought, but no amount of documents we had to say we had already paid our dues, if the monies are not received by the IR the tax has not been paid.. I along with the others were put on emergency tax. The shoit bag that gained the extra cash from 15 employees over the period of time got of Scot free. As the IR said it was our responsibility to make sure out tax was paid and correct. He didn't steal from the government he stole from us.

Maybe things have changed nowadays. But I think der Hun will get away with it and the mugs (players)will be the ones to fork out the cash/punishment.

Slightly different I know but still the same as the IR didn't get the money due.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Being an ex-employee of HMRC I confirm you are 100% correct, it is down to the individual and is fully their responsibility to make sure NI and tax is paid.

 

I would also say that the police should have been contacted about this, because as you state the employer stole from the employees. (Complete scumbag BTW).

 

This could get interesting, and I don't think the individuals will get away with this scot free at all, they may be able to come to an agreement with HMRC and possibly pay back less than they are due, but I fully expect HMRC to chase them and not just brush it under the carpet.

[Drewboy]

Being an ex-employee of HMRC I confirm you are 100% correct, it is down to the individual and is fully their responsibility to make sure NI and tax is paid.

 

I would also say that the police should have been contacted about this, because as you state the employer stole from the employees. (Complete scumbag BTW).

 

This could get interesting, and I don't think the individuals will get away with this scot free at all, they may be able to come to an agreement with HMRC and possibly pay back less than they are due, but I fully expect HMRC to chase them and not just brush it under the carpet.

Picked this photo up from Twitter so not sure if genuine or if representative of all EBT agreements. If the IR consider the Rangers to be the same club then would they not have accepted liability?

[The Future's Maroon]

Picked this photo up from Twitter so not sure if genuine or if representative of all EBT agreements. If the IR consider the Rangers to be the same club then would they not have accepted liability?

 

That letter smells of fake to me, it just doesn't look/read correct...pretty unprofessional also, "Dear Tore", why didn't it go directly to his accountant which he would have had dealing with his financial affairs and addressed to Richmond House, where....Glasgow/Edinburgh/London/Oslo?

[Footballfirst]

That letter smells of fake to me, it just doesn't look/read correct...pretty unprofessional also, "Dear Tore", why didn't it go directly to his accountant which he would have had dealing with his financial affairs and addressed to Richmond House, where....Glasgow/Edinburgh/London/Oslo?

 

I would almost 100% guarantee that the above side letter is genuine. I saw that letter several years ago via the RTC blog. The date of the letter 23 November 2000 was the start date ultimately used by the SPL when setting the terms of reference for the LNS Commission, as it was deemed to be the earliest date where there was documentary evidence of the EBT scheme as operated by RFC (the big tax case).

 

We also know that the SPL originally intended that the start date for their investigations would be 1 July 1998, the date that the SPL came into being. We also know that there were documents in existence from 9 and 16 September 1999 which showed the operation of RFC's DOS scheme (the wee tax case). These documents were never made available for consideration by the LNS commission.  It wouldn't be because it would implicate SFA President RC Ogilvie as having knowledge of the operation of the scheme which was deemed similar to the Aberdeen Asset Management scheme and had been declared unlawful by the Court of Session. Would it? 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Footballfirst

[Diadora Van Basten]

If the taxman goes after the players and officials who received the EBTs then the players would have to sue Old Rangers in liquidation.

 

In short the players and officials would be bankrupt.

[bryce9a]

Picked this photo up from Twitter so not sure if genuine or if representative of all EBT agreements. If the IR consider the Rangers to be the same club then would they not have accepted liability?

 

Where we are in the realm of contracts, liabilties and such like you are talking legal entities - oldco, newco etc. Arguing that "Club" as used here refers to the entity transferred in 2012 is a non-starter.

[Dutchmul]

Where we are in the realm of contracts, liabilties and such like you are talking legal entities - oldco, newco etc. Arguing that "Club" as used here refers to the entity transferred in 2012 is a non-starter.

 

For the hard of thinking, there was no entity transferred in 2012, rangers are in liquidation, they still exist but will soon be an ex entity when liquidation ends and they are wound up. The club currently playing in blue at ibrox are a wholly owned subsidiary of the rangers international football club which was formed in 2012 and bought the assets, including their history, of rangers from duff and duffer. rifc where formally known as sevco.

[Fort Vallance]

For the hard of thinking, there was no entity transferred in 2012, rangers are in liquidation, they still exist but will soon be an ex entity when liquidation ends and they are wound up. The club currently playing in blue at ibrox are a wholly owned subsidiary of the rangers international football club which was formed in 2012 and bought the assets, including their history, of rangers from duff and duffer. rifc where formally known as sevco.

Anyone got a link to the dead parrot sketch ?

[bryce9a]

For the hard of thinking, there was no entity transferred in 2012, rangers are in liquidation, they still exist but will soon be an ex entity when liquidation ends and they are wound up. The club currently playing in blue at ibrox are a wholly owned subsidiary of the rangers international football club which was formed in 2012 and bought the assets, including their history, of rangers from duff and duffer. rifc where formally known as sevco.

 

I was speaking in legal terms, referring to the "economic entity which retains it's identity", that the law requires to have been transferred for qualification as a relevant transfer under TUPE regulations. 

 

I recall that the extent to which those regulations were followed as required by Newco, in 2012, formed the basis of an employment tribunal dispute with PFA Scotland - http://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed24375.

 

Apologies, will be clearer before lapsing into legal references next time

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

For the hard of thinking, there was no entity transferred in 2012, rangers are in liquidation, they still exist but will soon be an ex entity when liquidation ends and they are wound up. The club currently playing in blue at ibrox are a wholly owned subsidiary of the rangers international football club which was formed in 2012 and bought the assets, including their history, of rangers from duff and duffer. rifc where formally known as sevco.

Not quite accurate. Sevco (Scotland) Ltd changed it's name to The Rangers Football Club Ltd, then RIFC plc was formed with the proceeds of the IPO and is the holding company of TRFC Ltd. But you are correct, though, that there was no transfer, of any kind, in 2012 between RFC and Sevco/TRFC. RFC's SPL share was transferred to Dundee FC, and Sevco, later to become known as TRFC, were given a, new, never before heard of, conditional membership of the SFA. There was a transfer of sorts, I suppose, when the supporters of RFC transferred their allegiance to TRFC, but that was their choice.

[Diadora Van Basten]

Where we are in the realm of contracts, liabilties and such like you are talking legal entities - oldco, newco etc. Arguing that "Club" as used here refers to the entity transferred in 2012 is a non-starter.

But not trophies or players?

 

Watching Billy Dodds argue that the Tribute act are actually due to pay his Tax due to his side letter would be magnificent!

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/former-rangers-stars-face-ruin-7659540#10AkE5A74B0wE9ut.97

Edited April 1, 2016 by Sandi

[jambovambo]

Mods - launch this discussion to the existential thread please.

[Don Dan]

For the benefit of our resident Sevco troll Bryce read the following

 

Appeal No. UKEATS/0038/13/SM

 

EMPLOYMENT APPEAL TRIBUNAL

 

52 MELVILLE STREET, EDINBURGH, EH3 7HF

 

At the Tribunal

 

On 12 February 2014 and 13 May 2014

 

Before

 

THE HONOURABLE LADY STACEY

 

(SITTING ALONE)

 

THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED (FORMERLY

 

SEVCO SCOTLAND LTD) APPELLANT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALLERS ASSOCIATION

 

SCOTLAND (FIRST RESPONDENT)

 

 

R F C 2012 PLC (IN LIQUIDATION) (SECOND RESPONDENT)

[buzzbomb1958]

Lester Piggott was jailed for not paying his taxes,Why do the rich think they are entitled to a free ride .Oh and can someone tell me what is it with rangers and tax dodgers,jail the lot of them I say

[Mysterion]

Where we are in the realm of contracts, liabilties and such like you are talking legal entities - oldco, newco etc. Arguing that "Club" as used here refers to the entity transferred in 2012 is a non-starter.

 

Should the players who took money now have to pay tax on it ? 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

I posted at the very beginning of this saga that the individual is responsible for the payment of tax and NI.

Well over thirty years ago I worked for a company who in all scenes of the word was paying the employees tax and NI to the inland revenue. A year of payslips to prove it or so we thought, but no amount of documents we had to say we had already paid our dues, if the monies are not received by the IR the tax has not been paid.. I along with the others were put on emergency tax. The shoit bag that gained the extra cash from 15 employees over the period of time got of Scot free. As the IR said it was our responsibility to make sure out tax was paid and correct. He didn't steal from the government he stole from us.

Maybe things have changed nowadays. But I think der Hun will get away with it and the mugs (players)will be the ones to fork out the cash/punishment.

Slightly different I know but still the same as the IR didn't get the money due.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

This also happened to myself and the other 150+ employees of the company we worked for.

This was in 2009 and tax, NI & pension contributions were being deducted from our wages but the money wasn't passed onto HMRC or the pension company for many months.

The company folded with huge debts in early 2010.

 

The union asked for clarification from HMRC and were told by HMRC that as the tax was deducted at source we (the employees) were not responsible to pay the tax as it was deducted by the employer and was then the employers responsibility to pass that money onto HMRC.

 

Not one person was pursued for any outstanding tax.

HMRC became a creditor just like the rest of us. 

 

 

 

Being an ex-employee of HMRC I confirm you are 100% correct, it is down to the individual and is fully their responsibility to make sure NI and tax is paid.

 

I would also say that the police should have been contacted about this, because as you state the employer stole from the employees. (Complete scumbag BTW).

 

This could get interesting, and I don't think the individuals will get away with this scot free at all, they may be able to come to an agreement with HMRC and possibly pay back less than they are due, but I fully expect HMRC to chase them and not just brush it under the carpet.

 

If your employer is deducting tax & NI from your wage, how can the employee be held responsible for the employer stealing that money.

 

I can only relate what happened to us in 2009-2010 and none of us were pursued by HMRC for any tax or NI which was due, also our NI record was unaffected.

[Boof]

Should the players who took money now have to pay tax on it ? 

 

Certainly not. Thay arra peepil, don't you know?

[Unknown user]

This also happened to myself and the other 150+ employees of the company we worked for.

This was in 2009 and tax, NI & pension contributions were being deducted from our wages but the money wasn't passed onto HMRC or the pension company for many months.

The company folded with huge debts in early 2010.

 

The union asked for clarification from HMRC and were told by HMRC that as the tax was deducted at source we (the employees) were not responsible to pay the tax as it was deducted by the employer and was then the employers responsibility to pass that money onto HMRC.

 

Not one person was pursued for any outstanding tax.

HMRC became a creditor just like the rest of us.

 

 

 

 

If your employer is deducting tax & NI from your wage, how can the employee be held responsible for the employer stealing that money.

 

I can only relate what happened to us in 2009-2010 and none of us were pursued by HMRC for any tax or NI which was due, also our NI record was unaffected.

Sticking to the oldco case though, it's clear that neither tax nor N.I. were deducted by the club, so the individuals are ultimately responsible- as things stand they've received thousands of pounds without paying a penny in tax.

[Justin Z]

Correct.  It's completely legally different when you're talking about a company making representations to its employees that it has deducted NI and tax and not actually done it, versus setting up an allegedly legal tax-free scheme.

 

Now, this "same club", if necessary, will of course use the legal argument that it was the oldco that indemnified the players against tax liability in the letter, not them, so that is the players' only recourse.  Because they're the same club.  But not.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

The likelihood is that several of the EBT beneficiaries will have frittered the money away to the extent that their only options will be to declare personal bankruptcy come 2019 or to engage the services of a contingency fee lawyer to try to pierce the corporate veil at TRFC.

 

My two predictions are

 

1. We won't be seeing so many press releases from Hunbrox referring to 'club continuity' in the future.

 

2. Bryce will continue to avoid facing up to the points about the difference between a 'solvent reconstruction' and an asset sale.

[RobboM]

If HMRC do pursue the footballers for non payment of tax and there are side letters indemnifying them for liability then it will surely stretch the club continuity argument. Sevco will have to argue that the footballers who played at Ibrox, in Rangers colours and won matches and trophies for them are nothing whatsoever to do with the current incarnation .... or pay their tax and NI of course.

[Footballfirst]

HMRC have already served assessments including penalties and interest on the Oldco company re the trust contributions (effectively the big tax case). If the Supreme court judgement goes their way then they are likely to receive around 10p-12p in the pound dividend from BDO. 

 

If HMRC was then to pursue the individual EBT beneficiaries, then that would represent double taxation, unless they were only pursued for the balance of the tax due.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Footballfirst

[Don Dan]

HMRC have already served assessments including penalties and interest on the Oldco company re the trust contributions (effectively the big tax case). If the Supreme court judgement goes their way then they are likely to receive around 10p-12p in the pound dividend from BDO. 

 

If HMRC was then to pursue the individual EBT beneficiaries, then that would represent double taxation, unless they were only pursued for the balance of the tax due.

Any taxes, should they be due, would have to come from the monies lodged in the trust funds as no taxes were ever deducted from them. BDO would therefore be entitled to go to the trust fund (EBTs) beneficiaries and recover the 10p -12p. IMO

[Footballfirst]

Any taxes, should they be due, would have to come from the monies lodged in the trust funds as no taxes were ever deducted from them. BDO would therefore be entitled to go to the trust fund (EBTs) beneficiaries and recover the 10p -12p. IMO

 

I'm not sure that the Trust funds will be pursued.  The CoS decision on the EBT case was clear in that the funds involved were disguised remuneration, that the tax liability occurred at the time of the deposit of funds into the main trust, and that responsibility for payment lay with RFC PLC.

 

As I understand the recent proposals, there would be no individual liability if the loans are repaid, i.e. the funds in the sub-trusts are restored.  The tax liability would only accrue if the loans were not repaid (the individual had received the benefit of the funds) or further down the line when the trusts' funds were distributed, e.g. among family members if and when the sub-trust owner dies. 

[Don Dan]

I'm not sure that the Trust funds will be pursued.  The CoS decision on the EBT case was clear in that the funds involved were disguised remuneration, that the tax liability occurred at the time of the deposit of funds into the main trust, and that responsibility for payment lay with RFC PLC.

 

As I understand the recent proposals, there would be no individual liability if the loans are repaid, i.e. the funds in the sub-trusts are restored.  The tax liability would only accrue if the loans were not repaid (the individual had received the benefit of the funds) or further down the line when the trusts' funds were distributed, e.g. among family members if and when the sub-trust owner dies.

 

It's a complicated mess which no doubt will takes years to unravel. The bottom line is these EBTs are earnings and therefore taxable and at some point tax will need to be paid unless as you say the monies revert back RFC PLC.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

HMRC have already served assessments including penalties and interest on the Oldco company re the trust contributions (effectively the big tax case). If the Supreme court judgement goes their way then they are likely to receive around 10p-12p in the pound dividend from BDO. 

 

If HMRC was then to pursue the individual EBT beneficiaries, then that would represent double taxation, unless they were only pursued for the balance of the tax due.

 

Are you sure about the penalties and interest part??

 

Interest is obviously straightforward but the penalty phase is usually managed separately (by a separate first tier panel). There they will look at whether the non payment was accidental, deliberate and whether HMRC were at any stage deliberately misled. A totally different process to determining whether the payments were taxable.

 

I'm fairly sure HMRC will pursue the recipients (apparently now regardless of the outcome of the Supreme Court appeal) but only for the balance of what they owe should the Court of Session judgement be upheld.

 

The options for at least some of the players will be to somehow try to enforce the side letter on another party (would need a good contingency fee lawyer) or more likely to follow the numerous examples of recent times and declare personal bankruptcy.