HMRC Freeze Rangers Bank Accounts? Martin Bain Story (merged)

[The Treasurer]

Sorry but as sad as it is, Rangers going bust would kill the Scottish game.

 

 

What makes you think that.

Genuine question

[Victorian]

rangers are whining about this latest demand as being "unduly aggresive", due in some part to the issue being "historic".

 

 

erm... i think the fact that it's a historic issue is the whole point of HMRC being 'unduly aggressive'. they wouldn't need to be if the issue had not been allowed to become historic.

 

rangers like to kid on their followers that rangers are somehow able to defend themselves against HMRC in all circumstances. hearts took a far more realistic approach during our case. hearts simply said nothing about it until there was something to say regarding the demand having been paid.

[Walter Bishop]

The bank owns no part in Rangers anymore or has any say over anything they do. Lloyds and the other creditors got all their money back when Whyte took over and Rangers are debt free excluding any present tax and future tax liabilities of course. This is why Whyte does not have any money for transfers.

 

Nonsense. Whyte simply transferred Rangers debt from Lloyds to his own company wavetower. So in reality Rangers now owe him their debt, similar to HMFC and King Vlad.

[Victorian]

Nonsense. Whyte simply transferred Rangers debt from Lloyds to his own company wavetower. So in reality Rangers now owe him their debt, similar to HMFC and King Vlad.

 

this is my understanding of it.

 

rangers now owe whyte the debt that he took over. he hasn't written it off. there was some statement a while back to suggest that it will be written off completely if they win the tax tribunal. meaning they could be almightily fecked if they don't.

 

[Coburg Hearts]

rangers are whining about this latest demand as being "unduly aggresive", due in some part to the issue being "historic".

 

 

erm... i think the fact that it's a historic issue is the whole point of HMRC being 'unduly aggressive'. they wouldn't need to be if the issue had not been allowed to become historic.

 

rangers like to kid on their followers that rangers are somehow able to defend themselves against HMRC in all circumstances. hearts took a far more realistic approach during our case. hearts simply said nothing about it until there was something to say regarding the demand having been paid.

 

Whilst you are of course correct in what you say, a better example of historical is hibs beating ICT in the highlands.

[Das Root]

this is my understanding of it.

 

rangers now owe whyte the debt that he took over. he hasn't written it off. there was some statement a while back to suggest that it will be written off completely if they win the tax tribunal. meaning they could be almightily fecked if they don't.

 

 

Exactly. If things go tits, Whyte will simply flog all assets and walk away.

[speedbump]

Twitter is shit and gay

 

Wrong on both counts.

[Regular John]

Charles Paterson, Sky Journalist on Twitter saying HMRC have arrested the monies owed by Rangers and the funds are now sitting in a holding account with the bank.

 

http://twitter.com/#!/charlesp_sky

[JAYEL]

Charles Paterson, Sky Journalist on Twitter saying HMRC have arrested the monies owed by Rangers and the funds are now sitting in a holding account with the bank.

 

http://twitter.com/#!/charlesp_sky

 

 

Not true

 

 

It is not in the Record or the Sun

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[CJGJ]

So there was ?2.8 million sitting in a bank account under the name of Rangers FC -- hmm.

[Eckauskas]

One of the Old irm going bust would debateably do the world of good for Scottish football.

 

It's doubtful all their fans would stop following football.

 

It would likely, imo, lead to a different club taking their place.

[Footballfirst]

Charles Paterson, Sky Journalist on Twitter saying HMRC have arrested the monies owed by Rangers and the funds are now sitting in a holding account with the bank.

 

http://twitter.com/#!/charlesp_sky

Looking at the exchange of tweets between Charles Paterson and the "Rangertaxcase" blogger there could be serious ramifications for Rangers cash flow (and their solvency) if they are unable to source significant amounts of cash PDQ.

 

It seems as if HMRC have been quite clever in getting a court order just at the right time when the latest installment for RFC Season Tickets was due to be received at the end of the month, hence there would be cash in the account that could be seized.

[Dean Winchester]

So if this is all down to the ?2.8 Million... Whats the amount of the other bill that they haven't paid?

[Rick Grimes]

Think it was about ?30m plus a maximum of a 100% fine on top. And their current debts which Whyte assumed.

[washniklaw]

Does this effect their ability to pay for Wallace? I assume they didn't pay up front.

[gordon the jambo]

you lot on this thread are as bad as all the pricks on hibs net talking about our debts rangers will never go to the wall same as us

[The Gasman]

you lot on this thread are as bad as all the pricks on hibs net talking about our debts rangers will never go to the wall same as us

 

They said the same about Wimbledon...

[Dean Winchester]

you lot on this thread are as bad as all the pricks on hibs net talking about our debts rangers will never go to the wall same as us

 

There's a slight difference between owing money to your owner and the tax man...

 

Didn't realise it was as much as that Ezio if they lose the case for that one then they'll really be in soapy bubble. Amazing

[Sandy's sock]

you lot on this thread are as bad as all the pricks on hibs net talking about our debts rangers will never go to the wall same as us

So, they are not being got at by the tax man?

[JAYEL]

So, they are not being got at by the tax man?

 

 

Got at

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Rick Grimes]

There's a slight difference between owing money to your owner and the tax man...

 

Didn't realise it was as much as that Ezio if they lose the case for that one then they'll really be in soapy bubble. Amazing

 

Its rather nice, isn't it?

 

Shame they got free of Lloyds & Murray though as the loan notes outstanding to other parts of MIH could have seen their total liability creeping closer to the ?200m mark! That would have been pretty.

[Paulie Walnut]

The words "ringfenced" are being used by the glasgow media.

 

We all know the truth that the money has been frozen in an account by HMRC.

 

If this was Hearts the press would be pishing themselves to put a negative slant on it, but being rangers it will be brushed over with the above.

[Dean Winchester]

The words "ringfenced" are being used by the glasgow media.

 

We all know the truth that the money has been frozen in an account by HMRC.

 

If this was Hearts the press would be pishing themselves to put a negative slant on it, but being rangers it will be brushed over with the above.

 

Was about to post something along the same kind of lines. I know there's been stuff in the media about it but absolutely nothing compared to what I'd expect if it where Hearts

 

I'm also extremely curious as to why I haven't seen anybody mention the actual figure for the larger sum except to say that there is one. Has it just not been officialy declared anywhere that it's that high? Is that figure Ezio gave just wrong? (I looked it up but still seen albeit only 1 or 2 places say it was around ?25 million but not ?30 million) Or are the media just trying to paper over the cracks?

 

Either way the ?2.8 million won't trouble them too much it's this second one they really need to be worried about.

 

Hope the WUP is in the post

[The Gasman]

The words "ringfenced" are being used by the glasgow media.

 

We all know the truth that the money has been frozen in an account by HMRC.

 

Where is this being reported?

[Coburg Hearts]

Where is this being reported?

Here you go..

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14771581.stm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Sandy's sock]

Don't want to be the party pooper but

http://home.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/41-finances/1268-rangers-bank-accounts-have-not-been-frozen-by-hmrc.html

It looks to me like they are squirming. Squirm you +++++

[Francis Albert]

Looking forward to the full broken club crest treatment in the Record.

 

"Ring fenced" has such a comfortable, cozy sort of ring to it, doesn't it?

 

 

[Paulie Walnut]

Was about to post something along the same kind of lines. I know there's been stuff in the media about it but absolutely nothing compared to what I'd expect if it where Hearts

 

I'm also extremely curious as to why I haven't seen anybody mention the actual figure for the larger sum except to say that there is one. Has it just not been officialy declared anywhere that it's that high? Is that figure Ezio gave just wrong? (I looked it up but still seen albeit only 1 or 2 places say it was around ?25 million but not ?30 million) Or are the media just trying to paper over the cracks?

 

Either way the ?2.8 million won't trouble them too much it's this second one they really need to be worried about.

 

Hope the WUP is in the post

 

 

 

The bigger sums are all hear say and nobody really know apart from HMRC and Rangers.

 

What is true is that Whyte bought and structured the owning of Rangers in such a way that if the club is found liable for said higher sum from HMRC he has a get out clause. This being that the owing of the name, stadium and league membership are spread out in different vehicles not able to be touched by HMRC, the rest is left for the HMRC to scrap over. Ultimately meaning that if Rangers go bust they can start again with a stadium and League membership.

 

Mr Whyte is not as daft as some portray.

 

 

[The Gasman]

Here you go..

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14771581.stm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

Thanks for that CH.

 

Slightly different take by the weegie media, than the feeding frenzy I'm sure there would have been if it was us!

[JAYEL]

Here you go..

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14771581.stm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

 

If it looks like a WUP its a WUP

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Sandy's sock]

If it looks like a WUP its a WUP

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

WUP?

[robbo1874]

It looks to me like they are squirming. Squirm you +++++

Good, it will be interesting to see what Sportsound make of it tomorrow. I wonder if they will climb into them as they would with us. I doubt it though.

[The Gasman]

.......This being that the owing of the name, stadium and league membership are spread out in different vehicles not able to be touched......

 

Are you sure about that?

 

Genuine question, as everything I've read up to now suggests that the ground would require to be sold, and that the debt issues would put the league membership in jeopardy?

[Coburg Hearts]

WUP?

 

Winding up petition.

[JAYEL]

WUP?

 

 

 

http://home.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/41-finances/1268-rangers-bank-accounts-have-not-been-frozen-by-hmrc.html

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Craig_]

[gorgie rd eh11]

One of the Old irm going bust would debateably do the world of good for Scottish football.

 

It's doubtful all their fans would stop following football.

 

It would likely, imo, lead to a different club taking their place.

 

 

 

The different club would have rangers in their name, wear red white and blue and play in the west side of Glasgow. Way to big a club to not just recreate themselves.

[Footballfirst]

The BIG tax bill

 

How much could Rangers owe? The listing below shows Rangers? annual contributions to the EBT (from Rangers? Annual Reports):

 

2010 1.36m

2009 2.36m

2008 2.29m

2007 4.99m

2006 9.19m

2005 7.24m

2004 7.25m

2003 6.79m

2002 5.18m

2001 1.01m

Total: 47.66m

 

So a total of about ?48m has been paid into the trusts. If this amount is treated as pre-tax earnings, the amount owed would be about ?19m in PAYE and approx ?5m in NIC (Total of ?24m). That is the core amount of the bill.

 

In a case which goes back to 2001, compound interest will work against Rangers. Interest charges are likely to be ?10-12m on top of the ?24m.

 

If Rangers lose this case, a separate process will determine the penalty to be applied. This would likely be 75-100% of the core underpayment amount. That could add another ?18-24m to the bill.

[Sandy's sock]

Winding up petition.

Thanks

[The Comedian]

The BIG tax bill

 

How much could Rangers owe? The listing below shows Rangers? annual contributions to the EBT (from Rangers? Annual Reports):

 

2010 1.36m

2009 2.36m

2008 2.29m

2007 4.99m

2006 9.19m

2005 7.24m

2004 7.25m

2003 6.79m

2002 5.18m

2001 1.01m

Total: 47.66m

 

So a total of about ?48m has been paid into the trusts. If this amount is treated as pre-tax earnings, the amount owed would be about ?19m in PAYE and approx ?5m in NIC (Total of ?24m). That is the core amount of the bill.

 

In a case which goes back to 2001, compound interest will work against Rangers. Interest charges are likely to be ?10-12m on top of the ?24m.

 

If Rangers lose this case, a separate process will determine the penalty to be applied. This would likely be 75-100% of the core underpayment amount. That could add another ?18-24m to the bill.

 

Your post pleases me.

 

 

So to sum up, if Rangers lose the tax case they are bankrupt and will have to start again as Glasgow Wanderers in the Glasgow South league.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jbee647]

The different club would have rangers in their name, wear red white and blue and play in the west side of Glasgow. Way to big a club to not just recreate themselves.

And the chairmen of the other clubs would call for them to be instantly promoted to the SPL

[adayinmay]

The BIG tax bill

 

How much could Rangers owe? The listing below shows Rangers? annual contributions to the EBT (from Rangers? Annual Reports):

 

2010 1.36m

2009 2.36m

2008 2.29m

2007 4.99m

2006 9.19m

2005 7.24m

2004 7.25m

2003 6.79m

2002 5.18m

2001 1.01m

Total: 47.66m

 

So a total of about ?48m has been paid into the trusts. If this amount is treated as pre-tax earnings, the amount owed would be about ?19m in PAYE and approx ?5m in NIC (Total of ?24m). That is the core amount of the bill.

 

In a case which goes back to 2001, compound interest will work against Rangers. Interest charges are likely to be ?10-12m on top of the ?24m.

 

If Rangers lose this case, a separate process will determine the penalty to be applied. This would likely be 75-100% of the core underpayment amount. That could add another ?18-24m to the bill.

 

Thanks for the info there. Its the first time I have seen it laid out so simply.

Question, why haven't the HMRC asked for tax on these payments before. Why has it taken 10 years to bill Rankgers for the payments to the EBT account?

[Paulie Walnut]

Are you sure about that?

 

Genuine question, as everything I've read up to now suggests that the ground would require to be sold, and that the debt issues would put the league membership in jeopardy?

 

Yes when i read the documents of ownership it pointed to 3/4 different vehicles set up to own different parts of the club. These were widely available at the take over point but the press are to ignorant or biased to report on it. Rememeber what the glasgow press has failed to tell everybody what Whyte does successfully ie asset stripping debt riding companies. The only liabilty he has is the name of the club "Rangers FC". He is very good at this and stands to make a profit if HMRC come calling for a BIG tax payout. He will walk away owing Ibrox, Murray park and the League membership . Leaving HMRC to scrape anything they can from "Rangers FC" in name only and the only assets they will have are players.

 

Hope this makes sense it took me weeks of reading and asking questions to understand it.

[JamboJen]

And the chairmen of the other clubs would call for them to be instantly promoted to the SPL

Sad but true.

[AllyjamboDerbyshire]

Yes when i read the documents of ownership it pointed to 3/4 different vehicles set up to own different parts of the club. These were widely available at the take over point but the press are to ignorant or biased to report on it. Rememeber what the glasgow press has failed to tell everybody what Whyte does successfully ie asset stripping debt riding companies. The only liabilty he has is the name of the club "Rangers FC". He is very good at this and stands to make a profit if HMRC come calling for a BIG tax payout. He will walk away owing Ibrox, Murray park and the League membership . Leaving HMRC to scrape anything they can from "Rangers FC" in name only and the only assets they will have are players.

 

Hope this makes sense it took me weeks of reading and asking questions to understand it.

I can understand what you are saying, well kind of, but I'd imagine HMRC have that one well covered. However clever Whyte might be he won't be the first to try such a thing and I'm sure HMRC have taken steps to close any such loophole. By my somewhat uninformed understanding of where this unpaid tax comes from, the huge bill that is, it was because Murray used a loophole, later closed by HMRC, but they still want the unpaid tax so I'd see something similar happening here with another long drawn out case, but this time chasing Whyte and his new compaies. HMRC will have a lien on all Rangers assets prior to the sale of the club and will have kept themselves well aware of all Whytes dealings and would have called in the debt before they had a chance to escape justice if they felt it necessary. Well I hope they would If Whyte got away with what you suggest it'd open it up for every asset stripper in the country and the Revenue are not going to allow that.

I'm not suggesting what you say is wrong, you've obviously looked into it well. I'm only suggesting he probably won't get away with it, and I'd be delighted if it ruined the slimeball, but it won't, and he'll just crawl under another gold plated stone until his next opportunity came along.

That said, I'm pretty certain Rangers will get off with a reduced payment, though still a large one, will be given time to pay, and won't go bust. They might struggle for a few years, but with their huge support, they'll be back at the top all too soon.

[SoldierPalmer]

I can understand what you are saying, well kind of, but I'd imagine HMRC have that one well covered. However clever Whyte might be he won't be the first to try such a thing and I'm sure HMRC have taken steps to close any such loophole. By my somewhat uninformed understanding of where this unpaid tax comes from, the huge bill that is, it was because Murray used a loophole, later closed by HMRC, but they still want the unpaid tax so I'd see something similar happening here with another long drawn out case, but this time chasing Whyte and his new compaies. HMRC will have a lien on all Rangers assets prior to the sale of the club and will have kept themselves well aware of all Whytes dealings and would have called in the debt before they had a chance to escape justice if they felt it necessary. Well I hope they would If Whyte got away with what you suggest it'd open it up for every asset stripper in the country and the Revenue are not going to allow that.

I'm not suggesting what you say is wrong, you've obviously looked into it well. I'm only suggesting he probably won't get away with it, and I'd be delighted if it ruined the slimeball, but it won't, and he'll just crawl under another gold plated stone until his next opportunity came along.

That said, I'm pretty certain Rangers will get off with a reduced payment, though still a large one, will be given time to pay, and won't go bust. They might struggle for a few years, but with their huge support, they'll be back at the top all too soon.

 

With the current state of the UK economy it seems to me that HMRC is taking stronger lines to get all money that's owed to them, that's why they want the full amount from Rangers, including all the penalties and I don't see them change their stance on the 'larger' tax bill and why would they as Rangers is an organization that will mean nothing to them.

 

Would be surprised if Whyte avoids these bills with his 'manoeuvres' HMRC look like they have their hooks in Rangers and they want blood.

 

Don't know how thus will transpire in the fullness of time but in all aspects of life the status quo is always temporary with power shift continually changing through time. If Rangers are badly damaged by these tax bills it could take them years to recover and their glory hunting fans are not renowned for their stick-ability. There are certainly dark clouds over Ibrox.

 

IMO a diminished (weakened not obliterated) Rangers and Celtic would be good for Scottish football as they would both be closer to the other teams. This would create more competition, excitement which should bring back supports and bigger TV deals.

[HeartyGraeme]

[Dean Winchester]

The BIG tax bill

 

How much could Rangers owe? The listing below shows Rangers? annual contributions to the EBT (from Rangers? Annual Reports):

 

2010 1.36m

2009 2.36m

2008 2.29m

2007 4.99m

2006 9.19m

2005 7.24m

2004 7.25m

2003 6.79m

2002 5.18m

2001 1.01m

Total: 47.66m

 

So a total of about ?48m has been paid into the trusts. If this amount is treated as pre-tax earnings, the amount owed would be about ?19m in PAYE and approx ?5m in NIC (Total of ?24m). That is the core amount of the bill.

 

In a case which goes back to 2001, compound interest will work against Rangers. Interest charges are likely to be ?10-12m on top of the ?24m.

 

If Rangers lose this case, a separate process will determine the penalty to be applied. This would likely be 75-100% of the core underpayment amount. That could add another ?18-24m to the bill.

 

This is the best post I've read on here in a while

[bighusref]

Just to be clear, I'd be absolutely delighted if Rangers go under.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Just to be clear, I'd be absolutely delighted if Rangers go under.

 

Absolutely this.