Poor Show !

[luckystrike]

How dare you compare a loyal British orginisation to a racist Hitler worshiping group.

 

Where did i compare. The clue is in the use of the word OR

[speedbump]

Where did i compare. The clue is in the use of the word OR

 

The implication and use of both in the same sentance would suggest that you were trying to link the two orginisations into one grouping. Which they are clearly not.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

You seem to be forgetting that it's okay to say anything that you like about those who are proud to be British, it's just comments about any other ethnic / political / religious group that are unacceptable.

 

Come on, get with the programme here.

 

Couldnt agree more.

 

For god sake dont say anything negative about Celtic.

[dtb1874]

Couldnt agree more.

 

For god sake dont say anything negative about Celtic.

 

yeah we wouldn't want to say anyhting negative about them, we wouldn't want to tarnish all hearts fans with the same brush

[Art Vanderlay]

i am not disputing that he has a lot of posts all i am saying is that i dont understand why people on here seems to be jumping on the bandwagon and taking the morale high ground against these fans on kickback, when none of them seem to have anything to them at the time

 

If I heard some idiots wearing Hearts colours singing loyalist / rangers songs - at a game, or on the train, or in the street - I would grumble about it to myself or whomever I might be with.

 

No way would I trot up to them and question their motives or intelligence.

 

Because I would most likely get my face panned in.

 

The reason it is brought up on here, a public forum, is that one hopes that an attempt at reasoned debate might help solve the problem. The problem being that a small minority of Hearts fans are misled in thinking that their club has traditional associations with Unionist and Protestant ideologies, and take it upon themselves to sully the reputation of Heart of Midlothian by aping Rangers songs and behaving in an embarrassing - if not shameful - fashion.

 

It is a problem that can't be solved by waving a magic wand - it has been pointed out already on this thread that it takes time for people to learn the error of their ways, to adapt to modern ways of thinking. Some will dig their nails in and never be turned. That's a great pity, but then everyone has a right to their own opinion, even if it stinks.

 

It is important that people make known their distaste for these kind of songs and attitudes so that the minority can see that they are in the minority. It is important that these matters are argued because with each and every thread in which the argument is regurgitated, those arguing a loyalist agenda are made to look a little more foolish.

 

Maybe some of those 14 year olds will register and log in to see if they've made any ripples. And just maybe one of them, a brighter kid with a little more sense than his mates - will see things in a slightly different light after reading the debate. If that's too much to hope for, then we can cling to the idea that the little nyaffs will be disappointed to find only a few shouts of support and far more by way of derision and castigation, and will **** off to follow follow instead.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

CAn someone please post which songs are acceptable, which are not, and where this list came from.

 

 

thanks

[tommythejambo]

CAn someone please post which songs are acceptable, which are not, and where this list came from.

 

 

thanks

 

I think we now get the Hearts song and the Gorgie boys are in Europe song.

 

Everything else is 'sectarian'.

[dtb1874]

CAn someone please post which songs are acceptable, which are not, and where this list came from.

 

 

thanks

 

maybe they want all the fans to start singing church hymns at the ganes

[dtb1874]

I would like to ask as well why is hullo hullo, the cleaned up versiion, not acceptable to some of you's, it is clearly an anti hibs some nothing else

[Acey]

This debate is pointless, because the bigots are deliberately being obtuse.

 

maybe they want all the fans to start singing church hymns at the ganes

 

I think we now get the Hearts song and the Gorgie boys are in Europe song.

 

Everything else is 'sectarian'.

 

For god sake dont say anything negative about Celtic.

 

(etc)

 

It's very easy to "win the argument" when you've totally misrepresented the other side. Basically, you're all a bit thick.

[dtb1874]

This debate is pointless, because the bigots are deliberately being obtuse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(etc)

 

It's very easy to "win the argument" when you've totally misrepresented the other side. Basically, you're all a bit thick.

 

maybe you find this debate thick, but all in want to do is to try and make they high and mighties understand that there opinion doesn't necessarily make it the right one.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

This debate is pointless, because the bigots are deliberately being obtuse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(etc)

 

It's very easy to "win the argument" when you've totally misrepresented the other side. Basically, you're all a bit thick.

 

Calling other users names, thats nice, shows your superior.

 

Its a fact, posts about Celtic are policed more than those about other clubs.

[Acey]

Calling other users names, thats nice, shows your superior.

 

No - your own posts show that I'm superior. In what, I'm not sure, but I'll accept the compliment regardless.

 

Its a fact, posts about Celtic are policed more than those about other clubs.

 

1) Prove it.

 

2) Maybe that's because the bigots/neds don't have reason to crow about the Pope/Ireland/Kafflicks/Jim Torbett when it comes to Annan Athletic? Posts from the neds re. Celtic are far more likely to cross the line into sectarianism, because they're too thick to know any better.

[Acey]

maybe you find this debate thick, but all in want to do is to try and make they high and mighties understand that there opinion doesn't necessarily make it the right one.

 

You're right in the sense that moral absolutes don't generally find their way to football forums.

 

However, in this case, my opinion (as a "high and mighty"/PC Brigade member/whatever) is correct, and yours is wrong. You're entitled to hold your opinion, but you're wrong.

[dtb1874]

You're right in the sense that moral absolutes don't generally find their way to football forums.

 

However, in this case, my opinion (as a "high and mighty"/PC Brigade member/whatever) is correct, and yours is wrong. You're entitled to hold your opinion, but you're wrong.

 

the point of people having opinions, regardless of what opinion they have, is that they are entitled to them, who has the right to tell another person that he or she are idiots/muppets/neds/******/chavs/simpletons/brainless(quotes used from the high and mighties)

 

everyone should be able to say what they want without being labled all these names by people who think that they're opinion is the only opinion to have, i on the other hand, welcome both sides of the arguement, without resorting petty namecalling unlike a few others.

 

and one more thing who are you to say that i am wrong and you are right, does this country not have the right of freedom of speach for reason

[Acey]

the point of people having opinions, regardless of what opinion they have, is that they are entitled to them, who has the right to tell another person that he or she are idiots/muppets/neds/******/chavs/simpletons/brainless(quotes used from the high and mighties)

 

everyone should be able to say what they want without being labled all these names by people who think that they're opinion is the only opinion to have, i on the other hand, welcome both sides of the arguement, without resorting petty namecalling unlike a few others.

 

and one more thing who are you to say that i am wrong and you are right, does this country not have the right of freedom of speach for reason

 

You're confused. There's a clear distinction between:

 

1) Your right to have an opinion.

 

and

 

2) Whether or not your opinion is valid.

 

Who has the right to call people neds? I do; it's my opinion. In fact, your whole post is making that point.

 

You can say what you want, but you have to be prepared to have your opinion knocked by those who have a conflicting opinion. C'est la vie; nothing (excessively) personal. I think that my opinion is the objectively correct one.

 

Your last paragraph is total nonsense. You have the right of freedom of speech, as do I. I am free to say that you are wrong.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

No - your own posts show that I'm superior. In what, I'm not sure, but I'll accept the compliment regardless.

 

 

 

1) Prove it.

 

2) Maybe that's because the bigots/neds don't have reason to ***-themselves into a frenzy over Annan Athletic?

 

Sadly your never a winner when you resort to name calling.

 

the fact that anyone who does not add (i also hate rangers) is classed as a hun when posting about Celtic and the threads close quicker than any others

 

And have to admit im not up to speed on the current affairs of the mighty annan.

[speedbump]

Acey, are you Jimmy Carr is disguise? Can you be anymore condescending?

[magicTs]

Basically, you're all a bit thick.

 

Nothing much left to say.

[Dr. Bapswent]

I still haven't seen a good argument explaining why bigoted sectarian songs SHOULD be sung.

 

Other than they create an atmosphere.

 

But so do other songs.

 

The only difference seems to be the songs inherent message, which for many posters seems to be very important.

 

Although i fail to see what it has to do with football these days.

 

Their reluctance to let go of these songs suggests something that has nothing therefore to do with football.

 

But they are very vocal in their defense of it, in fact some are getting very touchy and other just try to belittle the poster who is pointing it out.

 

 

I wonder why?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Acey, are you Jimmy Carr is disguise? Can you be anymore condescending?

 

Im sure he can, wait 5 mins till his next post and find out

 

Over to you Acey...

[Acey]

Sadly your never a winner when you resort to name calling.

 

the fact that anyone who does not add (i also hate rangers) is classed as a hun when posting about Celtic and the threads close quicker than any others

 

And have to admit im not up to speed on the current affairs of the mighty annan.

 

It's "you're", S.U.S.S.

 

Your second point is untrue. I, for example, hate Celtic. Yet, I've never been called a hun. Funny, that. I also imagine that the reason the threads close is because people start BeeJayKay-ing and making sectarian comments. I'm pretty confident that threads aren't closed without good reason.

 

Also, it's interesting that you used the phrase, "current affairs". Would you class Jim Torbett/Jock Stein as being a "current" issue for Celtic? Genuine question.

[peckhamjambo]

It is not 1974 anymore. Just because the British Army used to shoot Africans with spears does not mean that it would be acceptable for the modern British Army to shoot the Taliban if they were to revert to spears (as perhaps they ideologically ought to).

 

You miss my point completely, although to be fair I could have fleshed it out a bit rather than just pasting the lyrics. What I was trying to emphasise was that this song is part of the history of the club, hence it being released for the centenary.

 

I must also stress that I DO NOT agree with the singing of the 'alternative' version which references catholics. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with singing the original versions (as per my original post), or indeed, the Hibee blood version, and can fully admit to having sung all versions at some stage.

 

However, the problem I see with singing either the original versions or the hibee blood versions, is that:

1.Singing even the clean version will lead to others joining in with the sectarian version

2.The song, because it has been tainted by the bigoted words, will always make people anxious when they hear 'Hello, Hello' start

 

For the two points outlined above, I lean towards not singing it at all.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

It's "you're", S.U.S.S.

 

Your second point is untrue. I, for example, hate Celtic. Yet, I've never been called a hun. Funny, that. I also imagine that the reason the threads close is because people start BeeJayKay-ing and making sectarian comments. I'm pretty confident that threads aren't closed without good reason.

 

Also, it's interesting that you used the phrase, "current affairs". Would you class Jim Torbett/Jock Stein as being a "current" issue for Celtic? Genuine question.

 

Current no, part of their history yes.

 

And speedbump, see, he can yes.

 

Always wonder about people that point our spelling or grammatical errors on a forum.

 

Rather anal if you ask me.

[Acey]

Acey, are you Jimmy Carr is disguise? Can you be anymore condescending?

 

It's just annoying when the usual suspects circle the wagons in threads like this. It usually goes as follows:

 

Poster #1: Singing "Edinburgh is Wonderful" was out of order; it has nothing to do with Hearts.

 

Ned #1: they songs add atmosphere

 

Ned # 2: aye an they go to aw the games

 

Ned #3: were not allowed to sing any more

 

Ned #4: yeah we have to clap when the other team scores

 

See how the original point got wildly distorted? Always happens. You have to talk down a wee bit to ignorant people.

[Art Vanderlay]

Acey, are you Jimmy Carr is disguise? Can you be anymore condescending?

 

Surprised you know a word like condescending.

[Acey]

Current no, part of their history yes.

 

And speedbump, see, he can yes.

 

Always wonder about people that point our spelling or grammatical errors on a forum.

 

Rather anal if you ask me.

 

I thought personal digs made you lose the argument? At least be consistent, S.U.S.S.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

It's just annoying when the usual suspects circle the wagons in threads like this. It usually goes as follows:

 

Poster #1: Singing "Edinburgh is Wonderful" was out of order; it has nothing to do with Hearts.

 

Ned #1: they songs add atmosphere

 

Ned # 2: aye an they go to aw the games

 

Ned #3: were not allowed to sing any more

 

Ned #4: yeah we have to clap when the other team scores

 

See how the original point got wildly distorted? Always happens. You have to talk down a wee bit to ignorant people.

 

 

Seriously, do try harder, you pathetic attempt to get a rise from people is not working.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I thought personal digs made you lose the argument? At least be consistent, S.U.S.S.

 

Simply conversing on your level.

[The Mighty Thor]

It's just annoying when the usual suspects circle the wagons in threads like this. It usually goes as follows:

 

Poster #1: Singing "Edinburgh is Wonderful" was out of order; it has nothing to do with Hearts.

 

Ned #1: they songs add atmosphere

 

Ned # 2: aye an they go to aw the games

 

Ned #3: were not allowed to sing any more

 

Ned #4: yeah we have to clap when the other team scores

 

See how the original point got wildly distorted? Always happens. You have to talk down a wee bit to ignorant people.

 

You missed the one that gets me every time. The one where people go to great lengths to maintain a wafer thin veneer of respectability rather than just come out and say yes i'm a racist/bigot/homophobe* (delete as appropriate) whilst maintaining the nudge nudge references to their obvious prejudices.

 

You also missed the chip on the shoulder about the Catholic persecution complex. Oh the irony.

[Acey]

Seriously, do try harder, you pathetic attempt to get a rise from people is not working.

 

I'm not trying to get a rise from you, S.U.S.S.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

You missed the one that gets me every time. The one where people go to great lengths to maintain a wafer thin veneer of respectability rather than just come out and say yes i'm a racist/bigot/homophobe* (delete as appropriate) whilst maintaining the nudge nudge references to their obvious prejudices.

 

You also missed the chip on the shoulder about the Catholic persecution complex. Oh the irony.

 

Im guessing your a glass half empty guy on this issue!

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I'm not trying to get a rise from you, S.U.S.S.

 

Please accept my apologies then.

[speedbump]

Surprised you know a word like condescending.

 

Really, what a strange thing to say! What are you trying to suggest?

[The Mighty Thor]

Im guessing your a glass half empty guy on this issue!

 

I think as a support we do ourselves no favours.

 

A boisterous support is a great thing.

 

A bigoted/racist/sectarian support is a huge slur on the name of Heart of Midlothian.

 

Times have changed. Many of our supporters haven't.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

I think as a support we do ourselves no favours.

 

A boisterous support is a great thing.

 

A bigoted/racist/sectarian support is a huge slur on the name of Heart of Midlothian.

 

Times have changed. Many of our supporters haven't.

 

I agree, but feel that we as a support blow it out of all context. It IS a minority and there is nothing wrong with the Hibee version of Hello Hello. (IMO)

[redm]

I agree, but feel that we as a support blow it out of all context. It IS a minority and there is nothing wrong with the Hibee version of Hello Hello. (IMO)

 

Did you read the start of the thread? This isn't just about that one song.

[The Mighty Thor]

I agree, but feel that we as a support blow it out of all context. It IS a minority and there is nothing wrong with the Hibee version of Hello Hello. (IMO)

 

I don't think we blow it out of context or proportion at all. I don't think that the songs sung at the weekend (in the first few posts) are acceptable at all.

 

I don't think the age of the culprits or their number is a defence either.

 

Incidentally I don't find Hello Hello the hibee version offensive at all.

 

As i say they drag down what is a good and very loyal (as in follow everywhere) Hearts support.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Did you read the start of the thread? This isn't just about that one song.

 

Its the song im talking about.

 

Is that ok? Anything else you would like to dictate to the users of KB?

 

Do you agree that without the word fenian the song is not sectarian?

[Acey]

Its the song im talking about.

 

Is that ok? Anything else you would like to dictate to the users of KB?

 

Do you agree that without the word fenian the song is not sectarian?

 

How come you don't rise to me, but you rise to redm?

 

I'd say that, "We're up to our knees in blood" isn't sectarian, yes. However, it's not as simple as "We've changed a word in a song; everything's ok now."

[coppercrutch]

It's just annoying when the usual suspects circle the wagons in threads like this. It usually goes as follows:

 

Poster #1: Singing "Edinburgh is Wonderful" was out of order; it has nothing to do with Hearts.

 

Ned #1: they songs add atmosphere

 

Ned # 2: aye an they go to aw the games

 

Ned #3: were not allowed to sing any more

 

Ned #4: yeah we have to clap when the other team scores

 

See how the original point got wildly distorted? Always happens. You have to talk down a wee bit to ignorant people.

 

You would have to be incredibly blinkered to think there was only one circle of wagons in threads like this.

 

There are clearly two.

 

Both sides debate with each other. Both sides make reasonable points. However it is only usually one side that resorts to name calling and insults.

 

Make of that what you will.

[redm]

Its the song im talking about.

 

Is that ok? Anything else you would like to dictate to the users of KB?

 

Do you agree that without the word fenian the song is not sectarian?

 

Dictate to the users of KB? What? Because I assumed that the thread discussion would bear some relation to the thread title? Yeah, get me...total dictator...

 

You haven't read through this thread at all, have you?

[dtb1874]

How come you don't rise to me, but you rise to redm?

 

I'd say that, "We're up to our knees in blood" isn't sectarian, yes. However, it's not as simple as "We've changed a word in a song; everything's ok now."

 

so whats your problem with it are you a hibs fan, it should only be hibs fans that should take offence to this song, the words have been changed in order to suit everyone, but there are some that still want to have a go at it, why?

[Dr. Bapswent]

I still haven't seen a good argument explaining why bigoted sectarian songs SHOULD be sung.

 

Other than they create an atmosphere.

 

But so do other songs.

 

The only difference seems to be the songs inherent message, which for many posters seems to be very important.

 

Although i fail to see what it has to do with football these days.

 

Their reluctance to let go of these songs suggests something that has nothing therefore to do with football.

 

But they are very vocal in their defense of it, in fact some are getting very touchy and other just try to belittle the poster who is pointing it out.

 

 

I wonder why?

 

Interesting to note that once again, the question of giving a good reason why these songs should be sung, is overlooked and no real explanation given.

 

It would make you think that those defending it really actually dont have a good answer.....how odd.

[dtb1874]

Interesting to note that once again, the question of giving a good reason why these songs should be sung, is overlooked and no real explanation given.

 

It would make you think that those defending it really actually dont have a good answer.....how odd.

 

maybe it has nothing to do with the fact they dont have a good enough reason to sing, but rather they dont feel the need to defend themselves, especially to the likes of yourself, where your view of them will quite clearly not be budged, they sing songs relating to what we believe in, if they didn't believe these song s then they would not be sung, i concur that there may be a small number of people that join in that dont really understand what they are singing about, however for those who do know what they are singing about, they have a right to let to celebtrate their beliefs, people should not be so judgemental on them just because they believe in something different from you

[Dr. Bapswent]

maybe it has nothing to do with the fact they dont have a good enough reason to sing, but rather they dont feel the need to defend themselves, especially to the likes of yourself, where your view of them will quite clearly not be budged, they sing songs relating to what we believe in, if they didn't believe these song s then they would not be sung, i concur that there may be a small number of people that join in that dont really understand what they are singing about, however for those who do know what they are singing about, they have a right to let to celebtrate their beliefs, people should not be so judgemental on them just because they believe in something different from you

 

I will of course judge what I hear, as will you, and as you have in your above post.

 

But id rather call it an opinion, and id rather base it on people arguments, not their silence.

 

The reason for that can be assumed to speak volumes, and Id prefer to hear the arguments from the mouths of those people, than be forced into making a decision based on an absence of that.

 

However if an absence of that is all that is offered, its only expected that conclusions are made.

 

Dont you think?

[The Mighty Thor]

maybe it has nothing to do with the fact they dont have a good enough reason to sing, but rather they dont feel the need to defend themselves, especially to the likes of yourself, where your view of them will quite clearly not be budged, they sing songs relating to what we believe in, if they didn't believe these song s then they would not be sung, i concur that there may be a small number of people that join in that dont really understand what they are singing about, however for those who do know what they are singing about, they have a right to let to celebtrate their beliefs, people should not be so judgemental on them just because they believe in something different from you

 

Can i ask what you (as in the 'we' above) believe in? The sectarianism, the bigotry, the racism or is it something else?

 

just curious.

[speedbump]

Can i ask what you (as in the 'we' above) believe in? The sectarianism, the bigotry, the racism or is it something else?

 

just curious.

 

No Surrender, Hello hello, *** are not sectarian or bigotted if sung correctly. Along with No1 Platoon, Dollys Brae, Daddy's Uniform and The Sash to but name a few.

[The Mighty Thor]

No Surrender, Hello hello, *** are not sectarian or bigotted if sung correctly. Along with No1 Platoon, Dollys Brae, Daddy's Uniform and The Sash to but name a few.

 

I'm sure they aren't. The fact they are adopted as anthems of hate and intolerance is an unfortunate by product of mis-interpretation.

 

Thanks anyway, but i was trying to ascertain what the poster above believed in.

[redm]

Can i ask what you (as in the 'we' above) believe in? The sectarianism, the bigotry, the racism or is it something else?

 

just curious.

 

And finally we get to the crux of the matter. I'm keen to know more about these beliefs too.