Israel and Palestine

[hughesie27]

43 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

 

Or that they cut a unborn baby out and chopped its head off all lies eh.

Almost certainly if there's no evidence of it. Which there isn't.

[Nucky Thompson]

11 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The Hamas Health authority figures are very widely seen as credible and reliable. Been proven previously to be correct.

Aye so was Comical Ali’s at the beginning of the Iraq war 

[Nucky Thompson]

5 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

Gullible that I like to deal in facts? You probably still think theybwent in and beheaded dozens of babies.

Do you think that the Holocaust happened or a you a denier?

[TallPaul]

How exactly would a cease fire work? Hamas are a terrorist organisation thats sole aim is to destroy Jews. It seems a cease fire would amount to Israel not fighting back whilst Hamas plan their next terrorist attack. 

[TallPaul]

20 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Hopefully police go on extremely hard and don't let these protesters away with their anti-Semitic garbage.

This protest should not be allowed to take place on Remembrance Sunday as it is only designed to cause bother and will achieve nothing except cause vandalism and violence.

The police should go hard on them but sadly they won't. That's the society we live in. Even our first Minister is cheering on the terrorists.

[joondalupjambo]

20 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Hopefully police go on extremely hard and don't let these protesters away with their anti-Semitic garbage.

This protest should not be allowed to take place on Remembrance Sunday as it is only designed to cause bother and will achieve nothing except cause vandalism and violence.

Where is there a protest taking place on Remembrance Sunday?  I thought the protests were planned for Armistice Day.

The planned march in London does not start until the Saturday afternoon and well after any Armistice Day events which are being held in the morning.  Obviously there will be differing views on these marches but stopping Free Speech is a dangerous road to go down because ultimately Governments could gain the powers and pick and choose who marches.  

 

I think my view would have been to respect the weekend, pause and hold the marches the following weekend but I can understand why the organisers want to keep up the momentum.  

[Nucky Thompson]

It’s funny how all the same people have the same views on every thread.

Everything is as black or white as right wing, left wing.

Posting tweets from left wing sources as if they’re gospel 

[hughesie27]

12 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Do you think that the Holocaust happened or a you a denier?

That happened. This woman knows all about it.

 

 

[Nucky Thompson]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

That happened. This woman knows all about it.

 

 

Aye, she’s as Jewish as me 

[hughesie27]

6 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Aye, she’s as Jewish as me 

Wouldn't denying someone's authenticity as a Jew be pretty anti-semetic?

[Malinga the Swinga]

17 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

I've seen a lot of stuff on Telegram. Yet to see anyone being burned alive. I doubt you have either, not from the last few weeks anyway.

Why on earth would you watch this stuff on any platform, regardless of who is killing who? Do you actually search for folk being burned, hung or whatever with the intention of watching someone die?

I don't understand why anyone would want to see these images but maybe I'm getting too old. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

1 hour ago, AussieObserver said:

 

Bingo. The attack by Hamas was all the excuse Israel needed to instigate their latest land grab. Further to this point, given their resources and apparent competence, I don't buy that Mossad and Shin Bet didn't somehow know that an attack was coming. And Egypt warned Israel something was brewing. Israel ignored the warnings.

 

Interesting to see that Netanyahu's popularity doesn't seem to have risen much, if at all, in Israel as a result of the war.

Not really a surprise Netanyahu's popularity hasn't improved. He's the guy who was in charge when the attack happened in Israel and he will be out as soon as this is resolved. He's toast and he knows it.

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Why on earth would you watch this stuff on any platform, regardless of who is killing who? Do you actually search for folk being burned, hung or whatever with the intention of watching someone die?

I don't understand why anyone would want to see these images but maybe I'm getting too old. 

Shows you what's actually happening rather than relying in unconfirmed reports from either side. I've not seen anyone burned, hung etc and that's not what makes uo the majority of the posts.

[Nucky Thompson]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Wouldn't denying someone's authenticity as a Jew be pretty anti-semetic?

Nah, I might have believed the video if it was a dude with a long beard wearing a kippah 

[il Duce McTarkin]

35 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Aye, she’s as Jewish as me 

 

Well you did get your foreskin whipped off.

[Nucky Thompson]

1 minute ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Well you did get your foreskin whipped off.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Well you did get your foreskin whipped off.

A very odd but true fact , a person has 40% less chance of contracting HIV if they are circumcised . It was literally a life saver 

[il Duce McTarkin]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

A very odd but true fact , a person has 40% less chance of contracting HIV if they are circumcised . It was literally a life saver 

 

Well I don't think it saved Nucky's life, but it certainly saved something...

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Well I don't think it saved Nucky's life, but it certainly saved something...

😂

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

"After the holocaust, Israel has the right to do whatever it wants..... Golda Meir"

 

This is a good listen.

 

 

Thanks for posting that.

Really interesting.

[Shanks]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

A very odd but true fact , a person has 40% less chance of contracting HIV if they are circumcised . It was literally a life saver 

 

Even if they are the receiver? 

[il Duce McTarkin]

7 minutes ago, Shanks said:

 

Even if they are the receiver? 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, JyTees said:

 

The "hard right" narrative has already begun. As soon as a few lads turn up to defend memorials, veterans and poppy sellers you can be sure the police will find their riot gear.

 

This weekend may well be a turning point for the country. I know which side I'll be on.

 

Prince's Street Saturday, Haymarket Sunday. Let them try their pish!

Tell us more about this 'defending memorials' 

 

Defending them from what or whom?

 

These lads of which you speak, are they the Tommy Robinson type racist wankers that look for any excuse for a bit of bovver?

 

I know which side you are on too. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

20 minutes ago, Shanks said:

 

Even if they are the receiver? 

I wouldn’t know about that 😎😂

[il Duce McTarkin]

16 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Tell us more about this 'defending memorials' 

 

Defending them from what or whom?

 

These lads of which you speak, are they the Tommy Robinson type racist wankers that look for any excuse for a bit of bovver?

 

I know which side you are on too. 

 

 

 

Casuals scrapping with lefty students, woolly-minded free-thinkers, Muslims, and terrorist sympathisers. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Casuals scrapping with lefty students, woolly-minded free-thinkers, Muslims, and terrorist sympathisers. 

 

I’m getting the popcorn ready 

[JyTees]

13 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Tell us more about this 'defending memorials' 

 

Defending them from what or whom?

 

These lads of which you speak, are they the Tommy Robinson type racist wankers that look for any excuse for a bit of bovver?

 

I know which side you are on too. 

 

 

 

Is it just far left pish you pay attention to? Not watched or read any news lately? Cenotaphs up and down the country are being targeted. 

 

The lads I speak of are the thousands of Hearts fans that attend Haymarket annually and respect the sacrifices laid down to protect our freedoms, and I include the arseholes punching an old, veteran poppy seller on the back of the head's freedom as well unfortunately. Are these the far right, racists you speak of?

 

Ordinary folk up and down the country, similar to these Hearts supporters, have had enough. The silent majority will only take so much.

 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Casuals scrapping with lefty students, woolly-minded free-thinkers, Muslims, and terrorist sympathisers. 

 

Could be a good watch

[JyTees]

4 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Casuals scrapping with lefty students, woolly-minded free-thinkers, Muslims, and terrorist sympathisers. 

 

 

Who's said anything about casuals?

[JudyJudyJudy]

[Diadora Van Basten]

8 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

 

This pretty much mirrors the Bassam Yousef Piers Morgan second video especially when he talks about how Palestinians wear the key to their house around their neck and how they are not allowed to visit their home but a Jew from another country can move to Israel and move into their home straightaway.

 

The Palestinian message has been silenced in the media and is only just getting through from guys like Bassam Yousef who had to portray a particularly clownish persona before people began listening but in his second interview he speaks with knowledge about the injustices and behaviour that Israel has done to the Palestinians.

 

It is similar to what happened to the Native Americans and I think if more people took the opportunity to watch these videos and educate themselves they would realise that there is good and bad in this conflict and the bad is Israel.

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, JyTees said:

 

Is it just far left pish you pay attention to? Not watched or read any news lately? Cenotaphs up and down the country are being targeted. 

 

The lads I speak of are the thousands of Hearts fans that attend Haymarket annually and respect the sacrifices laid down to protect our freedoms, and I include the arseholes punching an old, veteran poppy seller on the back of the head's freedom as well unfortunately. Are these the far right, racists you speak of?

 

Ordinary folk up and down the country, similar to these Hearts supporters, have had enough. The silent majority will only take so much.

 

 

**** me it's a Daily Mail letters page wet dream!

 

Is it just the Daily Mail & Suella Braverman you listen too?

 

Cenotaphs targeted by whom? Who is going to target Haymarket and what do you think they are going to do? Nobody that's who. Absolutely nobody. It's dog whistle news stories for the hard of thinking.

 

Hearts supporters, and supportes of other clubs, will go along and Sunday and pay their respects as they have done as long as i've been alive. 

 

You're making stuff up because your information source has addled whatever it is you've got betwen your lugs. 

 

The silent majority you speak of actually want a ceasefire, it's the right wing  bams that make the noise

 

 

[Diadora Van Basten]

8 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

"After the holocaust, Israel has the right to do whatever it wants..... Golda Meir"

 

This is a good listen.

 

 

Good video I liked the bit about Animal rights complainers. It’s true though you wouldn’t treat an animal the way the Israelis have treated the Palestinians. You would think it was cruel.

[JyTees]

9 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

**** me it's a Daily Mail letters page wet dream!

 

Is it just the Daily Mail & Suella Braverman you listen too?

 

Cenotaphs targeted by whom? Who is going to target Haymarket and what do you think they are going to do? Nobody that's who. Absolutely nobody. It's dog whistle news stories for the hard of thinking.

 

Hearts supporters, and supportes of other clubs, will go along and Sunday and pay their respects as they have done as long as i've been alive. 

 

You're making stuff up because your information source has addled whatever it is you've got betwen your lugs. 

 

The silent majority you speak of actually want a ceasefire, it's the right wing  bams that make the noise

 

 

 

So has the 78 year old, veteran, poppy seller victim of assault at Waverly made everything up? Are there no police guarding the Rochdale Cenotaph after it was desecrated? 

 

I think after events this weekend, this statement is going to look rather foolish.

[Diadora Van Basten]

16 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

Is it just far left pish you pay attention to? Not watched or read any news lately? Cenotaphs up and down the country are being targeted. 

 

The lads I speak of are the thousands of Hearts fans that attend Haymarket annually and respect the sacrifices laid down to protect our freedoms, and I include the arseholes punching an old, veteran poppy seller on the back of the head's freedom as well unfortunately. Are these the far right, racists you speak of?

 

Ordinary folk up and down the country, similar to these Hearts supporters, have had enough. The silent majority will only take so much.

 

 

I think there is a smear campaign against the protesters marching for a ceasefire. Those doing the smearing are framing it as Armistance/Remembrance v March for a ceasefire. Classic divide and conquer tactics. I think most people are capable of supporting the Ceasefire and Armistance/Remembrance and all those politicians towing the pathetic “I have concerns” party line should be ashamed of themselves. 

[Ulysses]

[JudyJudyJudy]

I see Remembrance Day as a call for peace , not war . It’s a reminder of the futility of war . 

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

Sunday is a day of remembrance in the UK not protests, people can only protest in this country because of those that gave their lives for those to do so and have freedom of speech

Under no circumstances should the government and police allow any marches on the 11th of November ever 

[JyTees]

7 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

I think there is a smear campaign against the protesters marching for a ceasefire. Those doing the smearing are framing it as Armistance/Remembrance v March for a ceasefire. Classic divide and conquer tactics. I think most people are capable of supporting the Ceasefire and Armistance/Remembrance and all those politicians towing the pathetic “I have concerns” party line should be ashamed of themselves. 

 

Are you aware there's a former Hamas chief involved in the organisation of these "peaceful" protests. What sort of organisation do you think he runs? Hamas ceasefire? Oxymoron if ever there's been one!

 

Hamas terrorsit sympathisers, marching through the UK on Armistice day. Give that some though for a minute, if you're capable.

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, Howdy Doody Jambo said:

Sunday is a day of remembrance in the UK not protests, people can only protest in this country because of those that gave their lives for those to do so and have freedom of speech

Under no circumstances should the government and police allow any marches on the 11th of November ever 

 

Government should honour those who died to preserve freedom of speech by restricting freedom of speech on certain days. That's quite an interesting idea.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

Government should honour those who died to preserve freedom of speech by restricting freedom of speech on certain days. That's quite an interesting idea.

 

 

Yep . Where would it end. ? 

[Diadora Van Basten]

1 minute ago, JyTees said:

 

Are you aware there's a former Hamas chief involved in the organisation of these "peaceful" protests. What sort of organisation do you think he runs? Hamas ceasefire? Oxymoron if ever there's been one!

 

Hamas terrorsit sympathisers, marching through the UK on Armistice day. Give that some though for a minute, if you're capable.

There’s hundreds of thousands of people marching and they are doing so despite a desperate attempt by their own government to smear them as something they are not. Most are just normal people who don’t like to see innocent civilians being killed. 

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yep . Where would it end. ? 

 

Not the United States Embassy in Vauxhall, evidently.

[Nookie Bear]

41 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Casuals scrapping with lefty students, woolly-minded free-thinkers, Muslims, and terrorist sympathisers. 

 

 

Don't see that enough these days, barring the odd Just Stop Oil protestor getting booted off the High Street

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

There’s hundreds of thousands of people marching and they are doing so despite a desperate attempt by their own government to smear them as something they are not. Most are just normal people who don’t like to see innocent civilians being killed. 

Correct . It’s their only way to make their voices heard . But the Tories and  sadly Labour dong give a fevk 

[il Duce McTarkin]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Don't see that enough these days, barring the odd Just Stop Oil protestor getting booted off the High Street

 

 

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,

But to be young was very heaven. 

[John Findlay]

3 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

There’s hundreds of thousands of people marching and they are doing so despite a desperate attempt by their own government to smear them as something they are not. Most are just normal people who don’t like to see innocent civilians being killed. 

Jewish ones are fine, Palestinian one not.

When are you going to get it through to your thick head that there are no good guys in the Middle East, only bad ones.

That is both Arab and Jew. This is a war and hatred Thousands of years old and won't be ending within the next Thousand years.

[GBJambo]

9 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Government should honour those who died to preserve freedom of speech by restricting freedom of speech on certain days. That's quite an interesting idea.

 

 

If they are deemed to incite riots then yes they should be banned on the 11th .
 

Defecation of war memorials and attacking veterans selling poppies have already happened. And no doubt will increase towards and into the weekend . 
 

But freedom of speech eh 

[JyTees]

17 minutes ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

There’s hundreds of thousands of people marching and they are doing so despite a desperate attempt by their own government to smear them as something they are not. Most are just normal people who don’t like to see innocent civilians being killed. 

 

What about the ones who glorify in innocent civilians being killed that are part of the crowd?

[Mikey1874]

Article by the founder of left wing Momentum 

Jon Lansman: what the left gets wrong about Israel

The Momentum founder on his kibbutznik past, how progressives should respond to anti-Semitism and Jeremy Corbyn’s mistakes.

By George Eaton

 

Jon Lansman was 16 when he first visited Israel in 1973 and worked on the Sde Boker kibbutz in the Negev, the desert region in the country’s south.

“I was living in basically a shed with around 30 other people about a hundred yards from [Israel’s founding prime minister, David] Ben-Gurion’s house, picking peaches and pistachios,” the lifelong socialist recalled when we met recently. “That was a radicalising experience, doing manual labour. I was enthused by the collectivism, though it was clearly being eroded.”

This experience – Lansman’s aunt lived in Be’er-Sheva and he has five cousins in Israel today – means he can offer a rare perspective on the left’s fraught relationship with the country.

 

I met Lansman, who founded the Corbynite activist group Momentum in 2015 and led it until 2020, at his partner’s townhouse in Highbury, north London. We spoke in his study, which features a 4-foot-high red statue of Karl Marx, a Gilbert & George print (“Are you angry or are you boring?”) and a mini-library devoted to Labour history. Lansman, 66, who divides his time between London and his home in St Ives, Cornwall, appeared relaxed after several years away from the political front line, but he has been troubled by the left’s response to Hamas’s 7 October massacre in Israel.

“Most of all I feel sorrow and I find it difficult to relate to how much of the left responded,” Lansman, who was raised in an Orthodox Jewish family in north London, told me. “There isn’t an understanding, or there isn’t much sympathy, for the feeling in Israel that they need to prevent such an attack again. And part of that is about how the left sees war, or in fact how all of us in Britain have seen war for a long time. We’ve seen a lot of unjust wars, Iraq most importantly.

 

 

“There isn’t an understanding that there could be a just military response to horrific events. It’s difficult for the left to adjust to that but I do think that it needs to adjust. I think that some level of response by Israel is justified – not all of it, by any means: I am horrified by the extent of civilian deaths in Gaza.”

But in common with another Jewish socialist, the US senator Bernie Sanders, Lansman is wary of supporting an outright ceasefire in Gaza. “I want to see the violence stop as soon as possible… but calling for a ceasefire from the comfort of Britain? I can understand that Israelis need to ensure such attacks [by Hamas] don’t happen again.” The left, he said, “absolutely” needs to demonstrate greater empathy towards Jews and criticised the popular protest chant: “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.”

“The language you use at times when there are emotionally driven responses to violence on both sides matters. The Jewish community in Britain, understandably, sees the phrase ‘from the river to the sea’ as an attack on Israel’s existence, people should understand that. Why not find another phrase?”

Lansman similarly rejects the description by some leftists of Israel as a “settler colonial state”.

 

“It’s not a characterisation I would make at all. Most Jews who’ve migrated to Israel have been refugees, they’ve been arriving recently from Ukraine. The reason for Israel’s existence is the Holocaust, the fact that no other place would take them! Not Britain, not the US, who introduced immigration controls.

“In Britain’s case it was ironically [Arthur] Balfour, who’s treated as if he’s some kind of hero for Israelis [for signing the 1917 declaration stating Britain’s support for Israel’s founding], but actually introduced the Aliens Act, which ended Jewish immigration, and for those who couldn’t get in… it didn’t end well.”

Lansman harbours no illusions about the nature of the Israeli government, which includes extremist ministers and is led by Benjamin Netanyahu who is facing corruption charges. “It’s a far-right government… they are encouraging terrible things while eyes are on Gaza – the persecution of Palestinians on the West Bank and in mixed cities in Israel is appalling.”

It was as coordinator for Tony Benn’s 1981 deputy Labour leadership campaign that Lansman came to political prominence. Benn, in common with much of the party’s left, initially identified as a Zionist and admired Israel as a socialist experiment. After visiting it in 1956, Benn wrote in his diary of “the miracle of a home for Jews after 1,900 years of pogrom and ghetto” and mused that “perhaps the kibbutzim have the answer – stay rooted to the soil and pass it on more richly fertile than before to your sons and grandsons”.

When did the left’s relationship with Israel fracture? Lansman cited the 1967 war – when Israel occupied the Gaza Strip and the West Bank – and the 1982 Lebanon war as key turning points, but also spoke of a wider political sea change. “It ceased to be a left that had grown out of a broad front between Labour and the Communist Party in the 1930s. The New Left didn’t have a sense of the injustice that had been done to Jews who had migrated to Israel for that reason, they hadn’t lived with Jews as a persecuted people.”

The constituency in which I met Lansman – Islington North – has been represented by Jeremy Corbyn since 1983. If Corbyn, as expected, stands as an independent candidate at the general election, would Lansman support him?

“It’s a mistake for him to stand as an independent. I do think that Jeremy has been unreasonably treated. He didn’t handle anti-Semitism well but he is not an anti-Semite. He shouldn’t have been put in this position but I don’t think he should stand against the party.” Has he had much contact with Corbyn since Labour’s 2019 election defeat?

“I haven’t. I bumped into him in parliament many months ago and spoke to him. I have no animosity towards him, but that’s not to say I think he did a good job – I don’t think he did a good job. But he didn’t expect to win and none of us expected him to win at the start of that leadership campaign [in 2015].”

He added of Corbyn’s handling of anti-Semitism: “He had a real problem talking to Jewish communal bodies. If what you do when you see the Board of Deputies or the Jewish Leadership Council is read out a statement that Seumas [Milne, Corbyn’s director of communications] has written, it’s not going to work – and it didn’t.”

Lansman was for decades regarded by many in Labour as an arch-sectarian. He has long argued for the mandatory reselection of MPs and the empowerment of local activists. But he also has a pragmatic streak and speaks more favourably of Keir Starmer than some of his former Corbynite allies. “Keir Starmer does not have the politics of Tony Blair… He talks too much to Blairites, he listens to them too much, but I don’t think he is at heart a Blairite, he is a social democrat.”

Once asked why he remained in the Labour Party throughout the Blair years, Corbyn recalled Benn’s response to him: “You know what, comrade, we’re just in it, aren’t we?” Jon Lansman takes a similar view today. “I will be canvassing for the Labour Party at the next election. There is no alternative on the left to a Labour government. You can criticise it afterwards, you’re not giving anyone a blank cheque. But I was deeply depressed at times during the Blair government. And if I could stick with the party then, I can stick with it now.”