Is there anything in politics more shit than the Labour Party?

[Gundermann]

18 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

 

Ah the 70s, when there were no areas drowing under poverty, crime and substance abuse. A nirvana if you will. A utopia that only exists viewed through the sepia lense of Kickback and the nostalgia of a generation complicit in a lot of her worst excesses despite their outrage. 

 

Corbyn would've delivered the 70s for you or tried to. 

 

Did you vote for him? Nope so who cares. We'll see how long they remain SNP. Plenty of voters are opening their eyes to the SNP being an empty vessel. Without the carrot of independence to dangle to many they'd be dead. 

 

The world has changed and you need to let go. 

 

Capitalism + the Union =

[BlueRiver]

Just now, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

The EU's better regulated than the UK wants to be, why do you think the Tories wanted out?

 

Oh, and independence supporters are very unlikely to actively vote for a unionist, of course.

 

Is it really though? A lot of UK regulations exceeded EU minimum standards when we were in and still do. Of course there's an extreme economic right in the Tories that would like to strip that back further but how popular would that wing be with the electorate at large? 

 

Of course they are so I don't get why they're so bothered about Starmer's thoughts on politicians. You'd all vote for a Thatcher-figure (and have often quoted her) if they stuck a kilt in and promised a referendum tomorrow. 

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Capitalism + the Union =

 

Ah the 17th century. When Scotland was a utopia...

 

🙄

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Is it really though? A lot of UK regulations exceeded EU minimum standards when we were in and still do. Of course there's an extreme economic right in the Tories that would like to strip that back further but how popular would that wing be with the electorate at large? 

 

Of course they are so I don't get why they're so bothered about Starmer's thoughts on politicians. You'd all vote for a Thatcher-figure (and have often quoted her) if they stuck a kilt in and promised a referendum tomorrow. 

 

Yes, that's why they wanted out. You know human rights, food quality, etc.

[Boab]

7 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Did you vote for Corbyn? Curiosity but he proposed what many on here wanted yet they still went SNP so perhaps Labour aren't trying to capture the votes of folk so ardently SNP? 

 

Union membership is on it's arse and their power hollowed out. It took inflation at massive levels to even get the public largely on board for strike action and even then...well...I'd have liked to see how sustained that would've been if they had to drag on and on. 

 

Thatcher and Reagan won. That's the truth of it and unless the left can find a transformative figure that doesn't divide people so ardently as say a Corbyn or McDonnell...then we just have to deal. That figure hasn't been anywhere the past 50 years. 

 

Not to mention the world has changed drastically in the intervening years. The much-loved EU for example is a capitalist wet dream. Why do you think Thatcher wanted into it? That's not to say I don't think it's without merit but ultimately one of the cause celebre of the left on here is a free market wonderland. 

Yes, I did vote for Corbyn. In the Lab leadership Election and the GE. 
You say it took massive inflation levels for strikes. Of course ! That’s what Unions are for. To protect their members against incompetent criminals like the present Government.

The right did win, yes, but it could be argued that the figure the left need, will never be found as they will be destroyed by lies and skullduggery. See Corbyn.

The EU ?

 I take your point. Some very good protections across the board but a massive free for all for the big guns. 
Sadly, I don’t think the issue on a lot of leave voter’s minds was workers protection or a European Bank !

It was way down the intellect totem pole !

 

 

 

[BlueRiver]

15 minutes ago, Boab said:

Yes, I did vote for Corbyn. In the Lab leadership Election and the GE. 
You say it took massive inflation levels for strikes. Of course ! That’s what Unions are for. To protect their members against incompetent criminals like the present Government.

The right did win, yes, but it could be argued that the figure the left need, will never be found as they will be destroyed by lies and skullduggery. See Corbyn.

The EU ?

 I take your point. Some very good protections across the board but a massive free for all for the big guns. 
Sadly, I don’t think the issue on a lot of leave voter’s minds was workers protection or a European Bank !

It was way down the intellect totem pole !

 

 

 

 

Fair play mate I respect your opinion on this because at least you voted for a guy that proposed what you wanted. 

 

More than can be said for others on here. 

 

I'd argue Corbyn did a lot of that to himself with his past connections. McDonnell likewise. Not to say I don't agree that the media attack dogs were out in force as well. 

[BlueRiver]

24 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

Yes, that's why they wanted out. You know human rights, food quality, etc.

 

Human rights stem from the ECHR and were incorporated into UK law long before the EU took them into their own charter.  They still are. 

 

We'd often ignored the social charter of the EU whilst in so meh. 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Human rights stem from the ECHR and were incorporated into UK law long before the EU took them into their own charter.  They still are. 

 

We'd often ignored the social charter of the EU whilst in so meh. 

 

More regulated than the UK wants to be.

 

Workers' rights eroded as they try to bring chlorinated chicken in 🤮

[BlueRiver]

Just now, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

More regulated than the UK wants to be.

 

Workers' rights eroded as they try to bring chlorinated chicken in 🤮

 

The UK is more regulated in many areas than the EU wants to be already though is all I'm saying. 

 

Many of our standards exceed minimum EU standards in many areas already. 

 

If you can provide me with the severe divergence between UK worker standards and EU though I'll stand corrected? 

 

Chlorinated chicken was of course a headline grabber. Although it isn't the actual chlorine washing that's an issue rather the accompanying standards it allows regarding welfare and hygiene in facilities. 

 

I wasn't aware of any plans to allow UK-farming standards to drop to levels to allow this but if our fish farms are anything to go by perhaps there is. 

[BlueRiver]

They chlorine wash bagged salads in the EU and folk aren't pissing their knickers over that. 

[vegas-voss]

**** me Starmer is praising Thatcher now.So it's far right ( Tories ) or centre right choice we now have this isn't Labour it's a more palatable Tory regime we are heading for.

[Boab]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Fair play mate I respect your opinion on this because at least you voted for a guy that proposed what you wanted. 

 

More than can be said for others on here. 

 

I'd argue Corbyn did a lot of that to himself with his past connections. McDonnell likewise. Not to say I don't agree that the media attack dogs were out in force as well. 

Just for a short spell, when the Labour membership numbers rocketed, there must have been rumblings to smear the guy….just in case it grew to a troubling level for the powers behind the faces. It was never going to be allowed so how good a PM, or how bad a PM, he would have been is irrelevant. It wasn’t happening. 
The best I can hope for is a middle ground government. That’s in my eyes mind. For context, it would be left of that arsehole Starmer’s ideas.

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Boab said:

Just for a short spell, when the Labour membership numbers rocketed, there must have been rumblings to smear the guy….just in case it grew to a troubling level for the powers behind the faces. It was never going to be allowed so how good a PM, or how bad a PM, he would have been is irrelevant. It wasn’t happening. 
The best I can hope for is a middle ground government. That’s in my eyes mind. For context, it would be left of that arsehole Starmer’s ideas.

 

How far left would be the question for me? 

 

Too far and you're unelectable in the UK and to a large degree even within Scotland despite out tub-thumping on it. 

[vegas-voss]

3 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

How far left would be the question for me? 

 

Too far and you're unelectable in the UK and to a large degree even within Scotland despite out tub-thumping on it. 

I don't feel the leadership at labour is even slightly left just now.I think when they get into power we will see big divides in the party.They are centrist party just now heading to the right.Centrist I could handle compared to what we have now but this Starmer is really starting to worry me.

[BlueRiver]

4 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

I don't feel the leadership at labour is even slightly left just now.I think when they get into power we will see big divides in the party.They are centrist party just now heading to the right.Centrist I could handle compared to what we have now but this Starmer is really starting to worry me.

 

Socially I think they're still of the left. Economically they're centrist or centre right at the moment I'd agree. 

 

Perhaps closer to a Liberal Party than a Labour party but at the same time, old Labour policies haven't won elections in a long, long time and even then they were fleeting. 

 

I don't disagree with a lot of criticisms of Labour, it just bores me when they come from folk that would vote for Farage if he slapped an SNP rosette on because they have no other policies they're interested in beyond a single one. 

 

Edit: For example for all the talk of workers rights being eroded post-Brexit I don't see any Labour proposals that amount to this yet often hear them declared Tories. 5 more years of Tory government is far more dangerous than 5 of a Starmer government on that front. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by BlueRiver

[Boab]

16 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

How far left would be the question for me? 

 

Too far and you're unelectable in the UK and to a large degree even within Scotland despite out tub-thumping on it. 

To go back to what you said earlier…not a chance it would go back to the 70’s.

Are some of those things really bad though ? Not for me. Might seem naive to some, but public ownership of the major utilities and transport would work if ran properly. 
We’re being robbed blind and it’s horrendous that they are getting away with it. 
Re-nationalisation was a great Corbyn policy. One that signed his political death warrant. They were never going to allow that. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Boab

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, Boab said:

To go back to what you said earlier…not a chance it would go back to the 70’s.

Are some of those things really bad though ? Not for me. Might seem naive to some, but public ownership of the major utilities and transport would work if ran properly. 
We’re being robbed blind and it’s horrendous that they are getting away with it. 
Re-nationalisation was a great Corbyn policy. One had signed his political death warrant. They were never going to allow that. 

 

I'm on board with renationalising certain public utilities for sure. 

 

However I think fully committing to that prior to entering government creates an albatross around the neck that might be a hard policy to deliver in a first term. 

 

I personally thought Corbyn's plans went too far but would happily see transport and energy in public hands if possible. 

 

I don't think Labour have ruled out renationalising certain sectors though, have they? It's more a case of being coy about it within the wider economic landscape rather than promising the moon on a stick. 

[vegas-voss]

13 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Socially I think they're still of the left. Economically they're centrist or centre right at the moment I'd agree. 

 

Perhaps closer to a Liberal Party than a Labour party but at the same time, old Labour policies haven't won elections in a long, long time and even then they were fleeting. 

 

I don't disagree with a lot of criticisms of Labour, it just bores me when they come from folk that would vote for Farage if he slapped an SNP rosette on because they have no other policies they're interested in beyond a single one. 

 

Edit: For example for all the talk of workers rights being eroded post-Brexit I don't see any Labour proposals that amount to this yet often hear them declared Tories. 5 more years of Tory government is far more dangerous than 5 of a Starmer government on that front. 

Nah I agree old labour policies just didn't appeal to the electorate that's why I said I could cope with a centre party but I would prefer them to be more to the left than lurching to the right which I now thing this Labour is heading.Honestly these Tory ***** just have me craving somebody with a bit compassion and decency.

[Boab]

8 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

I'm on board with renationalising certain public utilities for sure. 

 

However I think fully committing to that prior to entering government creates an albatross around the neck that might be a hard policy to deliver in a first term. 

 

I personally thought Corbyn's plans went too far but would happily see transport and energy in public hands if possible. 

 

I don't think Labour have ruled out renationalising certain sectors though, have they? It's more a case of being coy about it within the wider economic landscape rather than promising the moon on a stick. 

I think they need to be coy. Keep as many people on the boat as possible. 
I just feel, hope really, that there are enough people who want an alternative to this present shitshow. I don’t think Starmer’s Labour, while a much better option, are not the real alternative we need. 

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, vegas-voss said:

Nah I agree old labour policies just didn't appeal to the electorate that's why I said I could cope with a centre party but I would prefer them to be more to the left than lurching to the right which I now thing this Labour is heading.Honestly these Tory ***** just have me craving somebody with a bit compassion and decency.

 

Fair enough I can see why you think that. 

 

For me, I've never really known a different political landscape than this one and my view is very much forged in the idea that Labour have to somewhat play the game as the Tories won a nigh-on total victory in the 80s and there's too many folk that gained from that to deliver certain sweeping changes just yet. 

 

It took decades for the Tories to get to a position where they could almost return to the economic liberalism of the late 19th and early 20th century (of course the 80s weren't the 1890s but there's similarities) and I think Labour need to adopt a more gradualist approach to return to a similar economic idea of the 50s and 60s. A large part of this can only be done by not scaring off the millions of UK (Scottish included) voters that have done quite well from Thatcherite and subsequent reforms entirely. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Fair enough I can see why you think that. 

 

For me, I've never really known a different political landscape than this one and my view is very much forged in the idea that Labour have to somewhat play the game as the Tories won a nigh-on total victory in the 80s and there's too many folk that gained from that to deliver certain sweeping changes just yet. 

 

It took decades for the Tories to get to a position where they could almost return to the economic liberalism of the late 19th and early 20th century (of course the 80s weren't the 1890s but there's similarities) and I think Labour need to adopt a more gradualist approach to return to a similar economic idea of the 50s and 60s. A large part of this can only be done by not scaring off the millions of UK (Scottish included) voters that have done quite well from Thatcherite and subsequent reforms entirely. 

 

Excellent postings in the last few pages from various posters. Very thought provoking. 

[AndrewB]

54 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

**** me Starmer is praising Thatcher now.So it's far right ( Tories ) or centre right choice we now have this isn't Labour it's a more palatable Tory regime we are heading for.

Starmer had no need to reference her at all.  Attlee, Wilson, Blair he could have said.  Just creating poor headlines for himself.  Not canny.

Edited December 3, 2023 by AndrewB
Autocorrect made it Starter!

[Boab]

15 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Fair enough I can see why you think that. 

 

For me, I've never really known a different political landscape than this one and my view is very much forged in the idea that Labour have to somewhat play the game as the Tories won a nigh-on total victory in the 80s and there's too many folk that gained from that to deliver certain sweeping changes just yet. 

 

It took decades for the Tories to get to a position where they could almost return to the economic liberalism of the late 19th and early 20th century (of course the 80s weren't the 1890s but there's similarities) and I think Labour need to adopt a more gradualist approach to return to a similar economic idea of the 50s and 60s. A large part of this can only be done by not scaring off the millions of UK (Scottish included) voters that have done quite well from Thatcherite and subsequent reforms entirely. 

 

I’m maybe a bit older and do remember the politics of the 70’s. It wasn’t all sweetness and light and the threat of power cuts recently, even though it was maybe a scare story, got me thinking..not this again ! 
The huge political shift, when Thatcher came in, ensured that the Unions would never again have the power they had. For good or bad, depending how you looked at it.

Only problem, even though change was inevitable, was we got the wicked witch of the west, who threw the baby out with the bath water and her aim to destroy the unions meant the destruction of many parts of the country’s livelihood. 
The 80’s could have been less disastrous for many. 
 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

 

The UK is more regulated in many areas than the EU wants to be already though is all I'm saying. 

 

Many of our standards exceed minimum EU standards in many areas already. 

 

If you can provide me with the severe divergence between UK worker standards and EU though I'll stand corrected? 

 

Chlorinated chicken was of course a headline grabber. Although it isn't the actual chlorine washing that's an issue rather the accompanying standards it allows regarding welfare and hygiene in facilities. 

 

I wasn't aware of any plans to allow UK-farming standards to drop to levels to allow this but if our fish farms are anything to go by perhaps there is. 

 

I can give you many links on the relative quality of American food compared to ours, and that's what they'd like to bring in. Chlorinated chicken is an example but there are plenty others, frozen chips with 8 ingredients, phosphates, god knows what else. I believe the Tories have already gone to work on overtime rules, not to mention striking and protesting, although that's another thing.

[Unknown user]

They literally campaigned on getting rid of EU red tape!

[Victorian]

4 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

Fighting the 70s again isn't going to work lads, none of even voted for Corbyn. Add in a lot of folk are scunnered hearing your generation drone on about Thatcher tbh. 

 

It'll have a minimal effect if any on support for Labour in Scotland. 

 

This bit.

 

Leaving Thatcher aside,  it's absolutely correct to point out that the left wing policy agena of the past will neither be election winning or productive enough to improve the economy or standards of living.  It's equally as obsolete as the free market,  capitalist,  wealth hoarding agenda of the Tories.  Only an approach that lies somewhere in between will succeed.  Whatever success represents.  Labour can only live in a space directly in the centre ground while doing everything possible to distribute increasing fairness throughout the economy and society.  Reasonably well paid jobs.  A fairer spectrum of taxes.  Employment rights and protections.  Better funded public services.  Affordable housing.  Disrupt and break the corrupt relationships between macro business interests and those who fund and determine the decisions of government.  Regulation and statutory standards where they are needed.  

 

Out and out socialism is as dead as right wing greed needs to be made to be.

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

I can give you many links on the relative quality of American food compared to ours, and that's what they'd like to bring in. Chlorinated chicken is an example but there are plenty others, frozen chips with 8 ingredients, phosphates, god knows what else. I believe the Tories have already gone to work on overtime rules, not to mention striking and protesting, although that's another thing.

 

US imports is different entirely from shouting that chlorinated chicken is automatically worse. 

 

Anyway, we know what the Tories want. That isn't analogous to Labour's wishes. 

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

US imports is different entirely from shouting that chlorinated chicken is automatically worse. 

 

Anyway, we know what the Tories want. That isn't analogous to Labour's wishes. 

 

Eh? We need to lower ourselves to US standards to allow these US imports.

 

Like I said, the EU's more regulated than the UK wants to be, how can anyone argue against that when it was the point of leaving? 🤷‍♂️ 

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

Eh? We need to lower ourselves to US standards to allow these US imports.

 

Like I said, the EU's more regulated than the UK wants to be, how can anyone argue against that when it was the point of leaving? 🤷‍♂️ 

 

We can allow US imports without UK farming standards falling suit. 

 

Chlorinated chicken in itself doesn't cause any greater health risk and even the EU acknowledge that. Its more related to the standards of farming it can enable. 

 

You keep saying that yet you can't really provide many examples. We have no US trade deal and as far as I know we don't have US food imports on our shelves. Sooo where exactly are these reductions in standards? 

 

What has been stripped away that couldn't have been whilst we were in the EU and what does any of this have to do with the EU still being a capitalist wonderland where you can just import labour and work cross border with no issues? Just because it isn't the USA doesn't make the EU automatically a workers right dream. 

 

[vegas-voss]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

This bit.

 

Leaving Thatcher aside,  it's absolutely correct to point out that the left wing policy agena of the past will neither be election winning or productive enough to improve the economy or standards of living.  It's equally as obsolete as the free market,  capitalist,  wealth hoarding agenda of the Tories.  Only an approach that lies somewhere in between will succeed.  Whatever success represents.  Labour can only live in a space directly in the centre ground while doing everything possible to distribute increasing fairness throughout the economy and society.  Reasonably well paid jobs.  A fairer spectrum of taxes.  Employment rights and protections.  Better funded public services.  Affordable housing.  Disrupt and break the corrupt relationships between macro business interests and those who fund and determine the decisions of government.  Regulation and statutory standards where they are needed.  

 

Out and out socialism is as dead as right wing greed needs to be made to be.

This is where I'm at and  surely it's not too much to ask.

[vegas-voss]

You just know next PMQs wee Sunak will use Thatcher against him now.Its will most probably be all he has though 🤣

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

You just know next PMQs wee Sunak will use Thatcher against him now.Its will most probably be all he has though 🤣

Yes but it’s pretty damning . Labour are really hibsd it . 

[vegas-voss]

21 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes but it’s pretty damning . Labour are really hibsd it . 

Aye I have said as much 

[Unknown user]

47 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

We can allow US imports without UK farming standards falling suit. 

 

Chlorinated chicken in itself doesn't cause any greater health risk and even the EU acknowledge that. Its more related to the standards of farming it can enable. 

 

You keep saying that yet you can't really provide many examples. We have no US trade deal and as far as I know we don't have US food imports on our shelves. Sooo where exactly are these reductions in standards? 

 

What has been stripped away that couldn't have been whilst we were in the EU and what does any of this have to do with the EU still being a capitalist wonderland where you can just import labour and work cross border with no issues? Just because it isn't the USA doesn't make the EU automatically a workers right dream. 

 

 

What are you on about?

 

I made one statement - the EU is more regulated than the UK wants to be, what are you on about with farming?

 

The government wanted to sign a deal with the US remember, and that would have involved allowing crap through. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS

[Ulysses]

47 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

We can allow US imports without UK farming standards falling suit.

 

 

Of course you can.  You can unilaterally let US imports in any time you like.

 

Now do exports.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Aye I have said as much 

Yes but it’s a pretty big stick to whack him with . 

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

What are you on about?

 

I made one statement - the EU is more regulated than the UK wants to be, what are you on about with farming?

 

The government wanted to sign a deal with the US remember, and that would have involved allowing crap through. 

 

 

 

You keep saying that but haven't provided any substance as to what the UK is looking to currently actually lower in particularly regarding worker rights which was what I was talking about. 

 

Food standards isn't a left wing/right wing issue but instead you rambled on about chlorinated chicken. I'm talking about farming and livestock standards in the context of why chlorine washing is banned. It isn't because the process itself is inherently bad. It's because of associated practices assumed to come with it. 

 

My initial point was that the EU has become some kind of cause celebre on the left when it's still a very economically right leaning behemoth at its core. But aye chicken. 

[BlueRiver]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Of course you can.  You can unilaterally let US imports in any time you like.

 

Now do exports.

 

Again not really the point I'm making about the EU in general though. 

 

The EU is still a capitalist wet dream and has had no issue with jurisprudence that undermines unions and workers. 

[henrysmithsgloves]

[BlueRiver]

Greatest guarantor of worker rights in the UK would be a Labour government. Not the EU and certainly not the Tories. 

 

I thought it would've been clear from the context of my comment (maybe wasnt though) about how world politics has changed that I wasn't talking about the pros and cons of Brexit.

 

It was the Labour Party split on the issue to the point it forced a referendum back in the 70s. Now 40 years on its a cause celebre of many on the left (despite empowering business over labour in many, many instances) and it's the Tories that split over it. Whether the Tories have full blown right wing free market fundamentalist nutjobs is by the by. They always have. 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

You keep saying that but haven't provided any substance as to what the UK is looking to currently actually lower in particularly regarding worker rights which was what I was talking about. 

 

Food standards isn't a left wing/right wing issue but instead you rambled on about chlorinated chicken. I'm talking about farming and livestock standards in the context of why chlorine washing is banned. It isn't because the process itself is inherently bad. It's because of associated practices assumed to come with it. 

 

My initial point was that the EU has become some kind of cause celebre on the left when it's still a very economically right leaning behemoth at its core. But aye chicken. 

 

And my point is that the UK wants less regulation than the EU imposes.

 

If you're arguing against that I'm not going to even bother, ffs you were bringing up what an imaginary future labour government might want!

 

Do you not think the UK wants less regulation than the EU?

[BlueRiver]

4 minutes ago, ǝǝɥʇᴉɯS said:

 

And my point is that the UK wants less regulation than the EU imposes.

 

If you're arguing against that I'm not going to even bother, ffs you were bringing up what an imaginary future labour government might want!

 

Do you not think the UK wants less regulation than the EU?

 

This is a thread about Labour where I was making a point about how the world of politics has changed in the 40 years from the 70s where many want to rerun their old political battles. 

 

I think elements within the Tory party certainly do. I think other elements don't which is why any of these regulatory changes you can't seem to name haven't been coming thick and fast. 

 

Edit: As for imaginary future Labour governments I've seen no indication they wish to hollow out workers' rights. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by BlueRiver

[periodictabledancer]

12 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

You keep saying that but haven't provided any substance as to what the UK is looking to currently actually lower in particularly regarding worker rights which was what I was talking about. 

 

Food standards isn't a left wing/right wing issue but instead you rambled on about chlorinated chicken. I'm talking about farming and livestock standards in the context of why chlorine washing is banned. It isn't because the process itself is inherently bad. It's because of associated practices assumed to come with it. 

 

My initial point was that the EU has become some kind of cause celebre on the left when it's still a very economically right leaning behemoth at its core. But aye chicken. 

It's the (far) right who have been banging on about "supply side reform" not being implemented since 2016 as the reason brexit hasn't worked. They've made no pretence of what that would entail - and I can't believe you are not aware of this or that you do not understand exactly ehat they are talking about.  

 

Food standards - the right (via brexit) wanted you to believe that food standards were mandated by the EU and were somehow an impediment. The EU set minimum standards - but the UK doesn't tell you that , it doesn't say , "hey, we're all for BETTER/HIGHER  stanards". At NO POINT has the right ever said since 2016 that food standards will be raised - they'll tell you "we" have the freedom to do whatever we want (actually, we always did ) but they never talk about the freedom to do things to a better/higher standard. 

 

Predictably you sign off with a dig and a childish reference to "chicken".

Again, I don't believe you don't know very well precisely what "the right" tried to (and arguably still want to) achiveve through brexit. 

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

This is a thread about Labour where I was making a point about how the world of politics has changed in the 40 years from the 70s where many want to rerun their old political battles. 

 

I think elements within the Tory party certainly do. I think other elements don't which is why any of these regulatory changes you can't seem to name haven't been coming thick and fast. 

 

Edit: As for imaginary future Labour governments I've seen no indication they wish to hollow out workers' rights. 

 

Can't seem to name? I'm just not playing that straw man game. It was everywhere, papers, TV, politicians; we want rid of the unelected bureaucrats, day one we're going to start undoing EU legislation.

 

And that's what the UK voted for.

 

The EU's more regulated that the UK wants to be.

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

11 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

This is a thread about Labour where I was making a point about how the world of politics has changed in the 40 years from the 70s where many want to rerun their old political battles. 

 

I think elements within the Tory party certainly do. I think other elements don't which is why any of these regulatory changes you can't seem to name haven't been coming thick and fast. 

 

Edit: As for imaginary future Labour governments I've seen no indication they wish to hollow out workers' rights. 

Who is looking to rerun the 70s? Labour couldn't try any harder to distance themselves from their socialist past. If anything I think the Tories are trying to rerun the 80s with their culture wars. It's about the only card they have left in the deck. 

[periodictabledancer]

21 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

This is a thread about Labour where I was making a point about how the world of politics has changed in the 40 years from the 70s where many want to rerun their old political battles. 

 

I think elements within the Tory party certainly do. I think other elements don't which is why any of these regulatory changes you can't seem to name haven't been coming thick and fast. 

 

Edit: As for imaginary future Labour governments I've seen no indication they wish to hollow out workers' rights. 

Your first para makes zero sense : if it's changed since the 70s why do "many" want to rerun their old political battles ?

The only reason the regulatory changes (eg supplyside changes , which I alluded to just) haven't happened is because the (far) right doesn't have enough clout in the Tory party these days and what rump is left will be booted at the next general election. 

The idea that the tories wanted us out from under the yoke of the EU to then NOT implement changes (ie reductions - or are you seriously goona argue they wanted to INCREASE them ?) to workers rights, employment rights, consumer rights is just laughable. 

They wanted it . Big time. 

[Malinga the Swinga]

The haters can hate, Labour going to win general election and hopefully Scottish elections getting rid of two of the most inept and self serving corrupt governments I've ever seen.

The more bitter the comments from the independence brigade, the better as it makes it more and more obvious they know what's coming and they can't stand the thought they have wasted a golden opportunity that may never happen again.

Best of all, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

The haters can hate, Labour going to win general election and hopefully Scottish elections getting rid of two of the most inept and self serving corrupt governments I've ever seen.

The more bitter the comments from the independence brigade, the better as it makes it more and more obvious they know what's coming and they can't stand the thought they have wasted a golden opportunity that may never happen again.

Best of all, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Incoming Red Tories.

Cannae wait.

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, periodictabledancer said:

Your first para makes zero sense : if it's changed since the 70s why do "many" want to rerun their old political battles ?

The only reason the regulatory changes (eg supplyside changes , which I alluded to just) haven't happened is because the (far) right doesn't have enough clout in the Tory party these days and what rump is left will be booted at the next general election. 

The idea that the tories wanted us out from under the yoke of the EU to then NOT implement changes (ie reductions - or are you seriously goona argue they wanted to INCREASE them ?) to workers rights, employment rights, consumer rights is just laughable. 

They wanted it . Big time. 

 

Ask them. There's some on this thread arguing for a return of "old labour" policies and greeting about Thatcher from about page one. 

 

I didn't argue the Tories didn't want to enact regulatory change. I argued they haven't yet and have essentially said the same as you regarding the far right fundamentalists in the party. 

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Who is looking to rerun the 70s? Labour couldn't try any harder to distance themselves from their socialist past. If anything I think the Tories are trying to rerun the 80s with their culture wars. It's about the only card they have left in the deck. 

 

They're on this thread. Totally blind to some of the reasons why Corbyn got annihilated whilst no even voting for him.