Is there anything in politics more shit than the Labour Party?

[Ulysses]

4 hours ago, Portable Badger said:

The reason that I referred to it as shite politics is that imo you can end up with watered-down, compromised policies that invariably provide a disproportionate prominence to a very minor party and their key policies.

 

Ergo the Greens here in Scotland - minor party, minor vote share and yet they have the govt by the knackers and, one could very reasonably argue, is currently driving this govt’s whole platform of policies.

 

Look at Spain yesterday - a clear winner but just shy of an overall majority with their collation partners, all the talk is the leading party has no chance being able to form a govt and so there will be another election in 3-4 months. Where’s the democracy there and do you really want a hiatus of government?

 

No system is perfect but for me the PR system is crap. Others will disagree which is fine.

 

Most countries in Europe have PR, and almost none of those have a lower standard of living than the UK.  Should they regret that because they have to think and negotiate a bit when they're forming governments?

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Portable Badger said:

I’m not going to run through your points one by one but off the top of my head and in no particular order-

 

Your vehement hatred of the HoL is somewhat clouded and confused -

- You allude they are unelected toffs and yet you propose appointing unelected “experts” to review, amend and scrap bills - who elected them to have such a sway and power?

- you state that iyo they only ask for amendments to be made and it gets railroaded thru - no they are amended bills that pass thru. 

- you imply that only your new ‘experts’ should write the bills. - who voted for these people and why have a govt in place in the first place then?

- you demand experts from industry, academia, TU, etc.... to be these “experts”. Tell me aren’t there huge numbers of Lords & Dames like Lord Winston, Lord Sugar, Lord Bill Morris (TU leader), Dame Flo Benjamin, Dame Kelly Holmes, etc, etc, etc....? Experts are consulted during the Bill drafting in the current system before it goes thru the Houses.

- despite all their sins many MP have had a variety of expert experience before becoming MPs. Isn’t Keir a Barrister for instance? Many with TU, industry, legal, military and civilian backgrounds.

 

I think many of your proposals merely replicate what is already in existence (Barr your probable desire to have the hereditary peers burnt at the stake)

 

Spain elects its upper house.  You'd prefer that, si?

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Keith is a man who changes his views about as regularly as you do James. 

 

GB News eh? 😂

Lol 😂 oh I’m fairly consistent on this view dear and also fairly consistent on the snp 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Keith is a man who changes his views about as regularly as you do James. 

 

GB News eh? 😂

Guardian has reported it too dear . I’m sure you are a avid reader of that whilst drinking a latte , skinny one 

[Portable Badger]

35 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Spain elects its upper house.  You'd prefer that, si?

The least politicians possible is surely a sound starting point to begin with.

 

 

[The Mighty Thor]

46 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Guardian has reported it too dear . I’m sure you are a avid reader of that whilst drinking a latte , skinny one 

Taking one's news from a far right and extremely unreliable source is not good for one's world view James. 

 

I wouldn't have my chips wrapped in the Grauniad and as for beverages, i'm a tea jenny. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Taking one's news from a far right and extremely unreliable source is not good for one's world view James. 

 

I wouldn't have my chips wrapped in the Grauniad and as for beverages, i'm a tea jenny. 

I take my news from various sources MT . Not heard “ tea Jenny “  in a Long time 🕰️ 😂

[Ron Burgundy]

19 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Taking one's news from a far right and extremely unreliable source is not good for one's world view James. 

 

I wouldn't have my chips wrapped in the Grauniad and as for beverages, i'm a tea jenny. 

Far Right???

The Nazis and Combat 18 were far right ffs. We don't half like to exaggerate and sensationalise everything these days.

Far right 🤣

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 hours ago, Portable Badger said:

I’m not going to run through your points one by one but off the top of my head and in no particular order-

 

Your vehement hatred of the HoL is somewhat clouded and confused -

- You allude they are unelected toffs and yet you propose appointing unelected “experts” to review, amend and scrap bills - who elected them to have such a sway and power?

- you state that iyo they only ask for amendments to be made and it gets railroaded thru - no they are amended bills that pass thru. 

- you imply that only your new ‘experts’ should write the bills. - who voted for these people and why have a govt in place in the first place then?

- you demand experts from industry, academia, TU, etc.... to be these “experts”. Tell me aren’t there huge numbers of Lords & Dames like Lord Winston, Lord Sugar, Lord Bill Morris (TU leader), Dame Flo Benjamin, Dame Kelly Holmes, etc, etc, etc....? Experts are consulted during the Bill drafting in the current system before it goes thru the Houses.

- despite all their sins many MP have had a variety of expert experience before becoming MPs. Isn’t Keir a Barrister for instance? Many with TU, industry, legal, military and civilian backgrounds.

 

I think many of your proposals merely replicate what is already in existence (Barr your probable desire to have the hereditary peers burnt at the stake)

So all these greats in academia and industry in Westminster and the HoL have got the UK to the state it's in and a mountain of debt? Not a great endorsement!

 

The establishment is for the establishment and nothing else. 

[Portable Badger]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

So all these greats in academia and industry in Westminster and the HoL have got the UK to the state it's in and a mountain of debt? Not a great endorsement!

 

The establishment is for the establishment and nothing else. 

😂

[Hmfc1965]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

Has there been even the slightest indication at any time that this was a remote possibility?

No. We're both making ludicrous statements that aren't going to happen.

[JudyJudyJudy]

28 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Far Right???

The Nazis and Combat 18 were far right ffs. We don't half like to exaggerate and sensationalise everything these days.

Far right 🤣

 

 

It’s their answer to any news outlet which they don’t agree with . The demonic “ far right “ . Stuff and nonsense really . It’s the new bogey man.

[Unknown user]

15 minutes ago, Hmfc1965 said:

No. We're both making ludicrous statements that aren't going to happen.

 

It's not at all ludicrous to point out Holyrood's not a national government and that it can have the rug pulled out by a national government at any time, when we're discussing the point of second chambers. There effectively is a second chamber that can overrule whenever it fancies.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s their answer to any news outlet which they don’t agree with . The demonic “ far right “ . Stuff and nonsense really . It’s the new bogey man.

Now, now James.

 

Woke is the new bogeyman. You know that. You've opined on it often enough. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The way in which Labour is bottling out of climate change is an embarrassment.

 

Honestly despair of our politicians and political parties. They’re all shite.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The way in which Labour is bottling out of climate change is an embarrassment.

 

Honestly despair of our politicians and political parties. They’re all shite.

Yes, they are! 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Portable Badger said:

The least politicians possible is surely a sound starting point to begin with.

 

 

 

How few would you like?  

[Ulysses]

36 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The way in which Labour is bottling out of climate change is an embarrassment.

 

Honestly despair of our politicians and political parties. They’re all shite.

 

Are the Greens bottling out of climate change? Are all politicians bottling out of climate change?

 

We should be wary of the view that "they're all shite", no matter how frustrated we might get about particular parties and particular issues.  There are people out there who want us all to think that "they're all shite".  They have their own agendas, and people like us are unlikely to be the beneficiaries.

[Hmfc1965]

4 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

It's not at all ludicrous to point out Holyrood's not a national government and that it can have the rug pulled out by a national government at any time, when we're discussing the point of second chambers. There effectively is a second chamber that can overrule whenever it fancies.

There is but they don't.

[John Findlay]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Are the Greens bottling out of climate change? Are all politicians bottling out of climate change?

 

We should be wary of the view that "they're all shite", no matter how frustrated we might get about particular parties and particular issues.  There are people out there who want us all to think that "they're all shite".  They have their own agendas, and people like us are unlikely to be the beneficiaries.

Who are the people like us?

[Ulysses]

33 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Who are the people like us?

 

People who aren't happy with the Labour Party (or other parties) bottling it on climate change.

 

Also, what you might call regular punters who didn't get a living handed to them.  Political extremes and anti-democrats rarely work well for people like that.

[i wish jj was my dad]

17 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Far Right???

The Nazis and Combat 18 were far right ffs. We don't half like to exaggerate and sensationalise everything these days.

Far right 🤣

 

 

The current Tory party are anything but traditional centre right Conservatives. They have been hijacked by UKIP and to an extent the BNP. And their supporters in the media, Mail, Sun, express, GB News and Talk TV can hardly be described as moderate. 

[Gundermann]

21 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Keith is a man who changes his views about as regularly as you do James. 

 

GB News eh? 😂

 

GB News....

[Gundermann]

 

[Gundermann]

20 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Far Right???

The Nazis and Combat 18 were far right ffs. We don't half like to exaggerate and sensationalise everything these days.

Far right 🤣

 

 

 

Hell, I can remember Gordon Brown recycling NF slogans from the 70s - "British jobs for British workers".

 

If Labour can shamelessly slither over to the right and promise to be 'tough on immigration' then it gives the Tories carte blanche to further skew the political compass.

 

It's well documented that the rise of the NF in the 70s was halted by Thatcher adopting much of their rhetoric. We've moved further down the road of fascism since then.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jan/30/british-jobs-british-workers

Edited July 25, 2023 by Gundermann

[jack D and coke]

Not allowed to call these tories and the media like GBeebies as far right but for years it’s been cool to call Indy supporters nazis, Scotland would be North Korea, SNP leaders are Mugabe or any other mass murderer despite being fairly left of centre? 

Cool👍🏼

[manaliveits105]

It's Natsies 🙂

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

12 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Not allowed to call these tories and the media like GBeebies as far right but for years it’s been cool to call Indy supporters nazis, Scotland would be North Korea, SNP leaders are Mugabe or any other mass murderer despite being fairly left of centre? 

Cool👍🏼

what

 

Get it right anyway - Sturgeon was the Stasi 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

It's Natsies 🙂

He seems to forget  the “ hate crime “ bill the “ named person “ act . All “ far right “ over reaching examples of a Govt in relation to families ,  parenting and rights to free speech . I’d say that’s pretty right wing and controlling . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

what

 

Get it right anyway - Sturgeon was the Stasi 

Proven with covid . She was Eva peron without the glamour mind . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

It's Natsies 🙂

This is JKB , I mean the video not the initial tweet . 

 

 

😂😂😂

 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

what

 

Get it right anyway - Sturgeon was the Stasi 

 exactly my point. 

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He seems to forget  the “ hate crime “ bill the “ named person “ act . All “ far right “ over reaching examples of a Govt in relation to families ,  parenting and rights to free speech . I’d say that’s pretty right wing and controlling . 

You've clearly missed Patel and Braverman's tenure in the Home Office.

[jack D and coke]

13 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He seems to forget  the “ hate crime “ bill the “ named person “ act . All “ far right “ over reaching examples of a Govt in relation to families ,  parenting and rights to free speech . I’d say that’s pretty right wing and controlling . 

He? You can’t just answer my post?

Got to be a snide? You do that quite a lot with me and other posters I’ve noticed then at other times appear pally.
Get yirsel to ****. 
I didn’t agree with them incidentally. 
What one of those bills came into force btw? 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You've clearly missed Patel and Braverman's tenure in the Home Office.

He seems to forget that. He seems to forget quite a lot of what he posts himself. He’s all over the place daily. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You've clearly missed Patel and Braverman's tenure in the Home Office.

We are discussing the snp . Isn’t there another thread regarding  the Tories or have I missed it .? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

He seems to forget that. He seems to forget quite a lot of what he posts himself. He’s all over the place daily. 

We weren’t discussing this . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

He? You can’t just answer my post?

Got to be a snide? You do that quite a lot with me and other posters I’ve noticed then at other times appear pally.
Get yirsel to ****. 
I didn’t agree with them incidentally. 
What one of those bills came into force btw? 

It’s not snide it’s clearly meaning you . Others times appear “ pally “ ? I’ll respond in kind when people are “ snide” to me even if I generally get on well with them . I’m not changing my views to court popularity . or not challenge someone cause I generally get on with them on this ! 
 

Neither of the bills came into play because both were quite rightly viewed as right wing over reach by a Govt 

Edited July 25, 2023 by JudyJudyJudy

[The Real Maroonblood]

20 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

He seems to forget that. He seems to forget quite a lot of what he posts himself. He’s all over the place daily. 

[The Mighty Thor]

33 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

We are discussing the snp . Isn’t there another thread regarding  the Tories or have I missed it .? 

We're discussing how shit Labour are actually. 

 

As you rightly point out there's already many, many threads for;

 

The SNP

Covid

Tories

 

I trust this clarifies matters?

 

😉

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

We're discussing how shit Labour are actually. 

 

As you rightly point out there's already many, many threads for;

 

The SNP

Covid

Tories

 

I trust this clarifies matters?

 

😉

Yes but it veered off track to fascism and strangely the snp reared its head . Thanks for the heads up regarding those others threads . I’ll need to have a wee gander at them . Cheers 🥂 

[Gundermann]

20 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Are the Greens bottling out of climate change? Are all politicians bottling out of climate change?

 

We should be wary of the view that "they're all shite", no matter how frustrated we might get about particular parties and particular issues.  There are people out there who want us all to think that "they're all shite".  They have their own agendas, and people like us are unlikely to be the beneficiaries.

 

I used to think this way but am now content voting for the most progressive parties best placed to change society for the better. That's been the SNP mostly in the last decade or two. One fear I had though was as it got bigger was that it would attract more careerists and lightweights. I think that has been the case, sadly. The price of being successful (to an extent)?

 

That said, in terms of sticking to principles and trying to convince others of your viewpoint, the SNP and Greens do that. Labour don't. If you promise to stick to Tory spending plans and not scrap any of their harmful, regressive legislation from environmental laws to anti-protest laws to the Bedroom Tax or Rape Clause, then we're just swapping managers of the same company.

 

 

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes but it veered off track to fascism and strangely the snp reared its head . Thanks for the heads up regarding those others threads . I’ll need to have a wee gander at them . Cheers 🥂 

 

You said this further back:

Quote

We are discussing the snp . Isn’t there another thread regarding  the Tories or have I missed it .? 

 

Hey, we've all been tired and confused after a hard night.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

30 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

You said this further back:

 

Hey, we've all been tired and confused after a hard night.

He's a ****ing attention seeking hypocrite.

[The Real Maroonblood]

50 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

I used to think this way but am now content voting for the most progressive parties best placed to change society for the better. That's been the SNP mostly in the last decade or two. One fear I had though was as it got bigger was that it would attract more careerists and lightweights. I think that has been the case, sadly. The price of being successful (to an extent)?

 

That said, in terms of sticking to principles and trying to convince others of your viewpoint, the SNP and Greens do that. Labour don't. If you promise to stick to Tory spending plans and not scrap any of their harmful, regressive legislation from environmental laws to anti-protest laws to the Bedroom Tax or Rape Clause, then we're just swapping managers of the same company.

 

 

Excellent post. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

He's a ****ing attention seeking hypocrite.

Oh thanks for reminding me to put you on ignore . I have certain rules for that . Very similar to Hannibal lector , I deplore rude , abusive and  uncultured people So those not on ignore should consider it a compliment . Ta ta 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, Gundermann said:

 

I used to think this way but am now content voting for the most progressive parties best placed to change society for the better. That's been the SNP mostly in the last decade or two. One fear I had though was as it got bigger was that it would attract more careerists and lightweights. I think that has been the case, sadly. The price of being successful (to an extent)?

 

That said, in terms of sticking to principles and trying to convince others of your viewpoint, the SNP and Greens do that. Labour don't. If you promise to stick to Tory spending plans and not scrap any of their harmful, regressive legislation from environmental laws to anti-protest laws to the Bedroom Tax or Rape Clause, then we're just swapping managers of the same company.

 

 

 

In fairness, the SNP isn't an option in Brighton Pavilion, but Caroline Lucas is.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Anyway, moving away from the daily me, me, me derailment.....

I was listening to a podcast today with a scientist called Simon Nurse who is a Nobel prize winner. He is a Labour member and said the UK has dropped out of the scientific partnerships with the EU (horizon i think). Apparently, we don't need to be members of the EU to rejoin and the EU would be happy to have us back but for political reasons the tories won't touch it. He expanded on the benefits which sounded significant but I don't think Labour have committed to rejoining. That's surely an easy win for Starmer and not one that would offend Daily Mail readers too much? 

[manaliveits105]

The chair of Uxbridge Labour Party obviously thinks there is nothing shitter than Starmers Labour 
The chair of Uxbridge Labour has quit the role and given up his party membership, saying "politics needs to have principles". 

David Williams, chair of the Uxbridge and South Ruislip Constituency Labour Party (CLP), wrote in a tweet: "I have resigned as chair of Uxbridge and South Ruislip CLP. I am also resigning my membership of the Labour Party.

 

"Politics needs to have principles or we end up with people like Boris Johnson and Liz Truss running the country, Jeremy Corbyn gave a huge boost to the Labour Party."

[Gundermann]

22 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

In fairness, the SNP isn't an option in Brighton Pavilion, but Caroline Lucas is.

 

Get you. But, is she not standing down? Shame if true.