Is there anything in politics more shit than the Labour Party?

[Francis Albert]

58 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I believe it was to do with seeing someone at a hospital. You decide yourself who you want to see. 
Surely not but that’s what it sounded like…

I think it would be a bit more complicated than that. Starmer gives an example of someone with a history of chronic back pain being able to make an appointment directly to a physiotherapist. Without trying the currently impossible step in many cases of making an appointment with a GP.

Whatever. The fact that Labour are actually considering reform of a failed system is good news. And a vote winner I think.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I believe it was to do with seeing someone at a hospital. You decide yourself who you want to see. 
Surely not but that’s what it sounded like…

I think it would be a bit more complicated than that. Starmer gives an example of someone with a history of chronic back pain being able to make an appointment directly to a physiotherapist. Without trying the currently impossible step in many cases of making an appointment with a GP.

Whatever. The fact that Labour are actually considering reform of a failed system is good news. And a vote winner I think.

[Francis Albert]

Sorry DP

[jack D and coke]

51 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I think it would be a bit more complicated than that. Starmer gives an example of someone with a history of chronic back pain being able to make an appointment directly to a physiotherapist. Without trying the currently impossible step in many cases of making an appointment with a GP.

Whatever. The fact that Labour are actually considering reform of a failed system is good news. And a vote winner I think.

Surely it must be. It sounds horrendous.

People self referring? Do you just get a feeling you need some specialist help or how does it work? How would you know what wrong with seeing a GP first?

It can’t be as bammy as it sounds surely. 
We’ll see I suppose but I get the feeling this will be in the bin pronto. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Surely it must be. It sounds horrendous.

People self referring? Do you just get a feeling you need some specialist help or how does it work? How would you know what wrong with seeing a GP first?

It can’t be as bammy as it sounds surely. 
We’ll see I suppose but I get the feeling this will be in the bin pronto. 

How do you know what is wrong if it is impossible to see a GP. For many that has been the case for months of not years.

[Francis Albert]

18 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Surely it must be. It sounds horrendous.

People self referring? Do you just get a feeling you need some specialist help or how does it work? How would you know what wrong with seeing a GP first?

It can’t be as bammy as it sounds surely. 
We’ll see I suppose but I get the feeling this will be in the bin pronto. 

The Mail today is interesting on the Starmer thoughts about the much needed reformation of the NHS. Surely for the first time in history the Mail strongly supports a Trade Union's (BMA) objections to the threat to GPs jobs. Self referral was at this stage  just an idea about one possible element of reform. 

If have a problem with our teeth we "self refer" to a dentist. In fact a while back I had a terrible pain in my jaw  which my GP diagnosed as "arthritic jaw" because there was the slight  sound of a click when i opened wide ... something that often happens and always has when I do that. My dentist gave me some pain killers which remarkably cured my "arthritic jaw" which has never reappeared.

A friend of my wife suffered  with pain in the ear for years. Her GP referred her to a dentist who extracted a tooth. The ear ache continues to this day. A self-referral to a ENT specialist (or even to the nearest Specsavers) might have solved the problem. 

In fact we "self refer" to Specsavers for eye and hearing problems. 

If we have rheumatic pain or the after effect of a broken bone we can "self refer" to a physiotherapist

If we have skin problems (acne or other disfiguring conditions (or just the impact of old age)  why can't we "self refer" to a skin specialist. 

Obviously it would not always be appropriate but why not give the idea a hearing? (Excuse the pun!)

It is certain that the BMA will be at least as good as the rail unions in defending restrictive practices.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Francis Albert

[Lone Striker]

17 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

How do you know what is wrong if it is impossible to see a GP. For many that has been the case for months of not years.

This is the crux of the issue, which has become a crisis after the effects that Covid has had on the NHS and on the public - signficantly increased demand for all types of service .... and NHS staff shortages in all areas of service.    

 

At least Starmer is trying to come up with ideas which "might" alleviate some bottlenecks and speed up the process of accessing diagnosis & treatment - but until the NHS can fill key front-line vacancies, I doubt if much will noticably  improve.     

 

Of course, the elephant in the room here is private treatment & private hospitals/dentists,  If there was a rapid increase in the number of patients using private healthcare (which I suspect will happen), salaries of healthcare professionals working in the private sector would go up .... which would then attract more NHS healthcare professionals to move into private clinics..... which would then reduce the amount of  NHS resource see to treat NHS patients.     And so on.

 

Admittedly a lot of surgeons & specialists split their time between  both sectors.   

 

As far as I'm aware,  private hospitals don't operate A&E services - so some of the demand for NHS A&E must include wealthy folk with private healthcare plans  who could afford to pay extra for private A&E if it was available, but who are also consuming NHS A&E resource.  

 

[Francis Albert]

38 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

 

 

As far as I'm aware,  private hospitals don't operate A&E services - so some of the demand for NHS A&E must include wealthy folk with private healthcare plans  who could afford to pay extra for private A&E if it was available, but who are also consuming NHS A&E resource.  

 

To be fair wealthy people also pay a disproportionate amount of the cost of the NHS even if they never use it. But the "free at the point of delivery" principle should be one of the first things to go in any reform. It doesn't feature in the more successful health systems in all or almost all of the developed world. I would happily pay for a GP appointment if I needed one and could actually get one. 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

To be fair wealthy people also pay a disproportionate amount of the cost of the NHS even if they never use it. But the "free at the point of delivery" principle should be one of the first things to go in any reform. It doesn't feature in the more successful health systems in all or almost all of the developed world. I would happily pay for a GP appointment if I needed one and could actually get one. 

Its a complex issue, admittedly.  On the one hand, its morally right that folk with the broadest financial shoulders should pay a lot more in tax than those further down the income scale.    To balance that,  is the increasing expectation  that the  NHS should keep pace with the latest medical technology and provide faster access to treatment - regardless of cost.   No matter how much more money the Government gives to the NHS, it never seems to be enough to make any improvement  in the performance measures.   

 

Imposing a nominal charge per GP appointment might influence a reduction in petty & missed  appointments, which would help reduce demand for appointments at GP and hospital specialist levels.  We already have up-front charges when you go to the dentist, plus something extra for fillings, extractions etc.   

 

I suspect the Government will start to allow  private companies to deliver more health services via practices on the High Street - just like private dental clinics and opticians  and pharmacies do currently.   Its not that long ago that Specsavers & Boots started delivering audiology services. 

 

The Covid app experience  established the principle of  using mobile phone technology to highlight  health risks to an individual, so maybe more scenarios like that could help reduce the need for a GP referral in order to get an appointment with a specialist -  things like diabetes and blood pressure data input by patients at home could trigger an invitation to attend a  an appointment at a specialist clinic at a hospital.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Its a complex issue, admittedly.  On the one hand, its morally right that folk with the broadest financial shoulders should pay a lot more in tax than those further down the income scale.    To balance that,  is the increasing expectation  that the  NHS should keep pace with the latest medical technology and provide faster access to treatment - regardless of cost.   No matter how much more money the Government gives to the NHS, it never seems to be enough to make any improvement  in the performance measures.   

 

Imposing a nominal charge per GP appointment might influence a reduction in petty & missed  appointments, which would help reduce demand for appointments at GP and hospital specialist levels.  We already have up-front charges when you go to the dentist, plus something extra for fillings, extractions etc.   

 

I suspect the Government will start to allow  private companies to deliver more health services via practices on the High Street - just like private dental clinics and opticians  and pharmacies do currently.   Its not that long ago that Specsavers & Boots started delivering audiology services. 

 

The Covid app experience  established the principle of  using mobile phone technology to highlight  health risks to an individual, so maybe more scenarios like that could help reduce the need for a GP referral in order to get an appointment with a specialist -  things like diabetes and blood pressure data input by patients at home could trigger an invitation to attend a  an appointment at a specialist clinic at a hospital.

 

 

I like the new GP system where you first of all speak to office staff who then either arrange a face to face or telephone consulation.  I have always been seen if I want a face to face but have also used the telephone too. I assume this system cuts down on the dafties misusing the system. However I am aware some people like the face to face and GPs can also pick up on other issues too.

[Ulysses]

23 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Surely it must be. It sounds horrendous.

People self referring? Do you just get a feeling you need some specialist help or how does it work? How would you know what wrong with seeing a GP first?

It can’t be as bammy as it sounds surely. 
We’ll see I suppose but I get the feeling this will be in the bin pronto. 

 

IIRC, Starmer used physiotherapy as an example.  I could go to my GP and get referred to a physiotherapist either privately or in the public system here, but over the years I have generally self-referred (I've spent a fair bit of time in physio over the years).  When I was younger it was for sports injuries, and in more recent years it was mainly back trouble.  Generally a physiotherapist could and did identify the problem and the required treatment.  Once in a while, however, they weren't prepared to take chances, particularly if something was new or unexpected.  On those occasions they asked me to see my GP first.  It worked well.  Most of the time I was getting physiotherapy quickly without wasting time and money getting into and out of a GP's waiting room, but I got to go see a doctor whenever it was needed.

 

It would definitely work as an approach with physio, but I'm not sure what other specialist disciplines would be suitable for self-referral.  

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

IIRC, Starmer used physiotherapy as an example.  I could go to my GP and get referred to a physiotherapist either privately or in the public system here, but over the years I have generally self-referred (I've spent a fair bit of time in physio over the years).  When I was younger it was for sports injuries, and in more recent years it was mainly back trouble.  Generally a physiotherapist could and did identify the problem and the required treatment.  Once in a while, however, they weren't prepared to take chances, particularly if something was new or unexpected.  On those occasions they asked me to see my GP first.  It worked well.  Most of the time I was getting physiotherapy quickly without wasting time and money getting into and out of a GP's waiting room, but I got to go see a doctor whenever it was needed.

 

It would definitely work as an approach with physio, but I'm not sure what other specialist disciplines would be suitable for self-referral.  

It needs fleshed out a lot more before anyone can decide if good or bad idea I suppose. 

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

It needs fleshed out a lot more before anyone can decide if good or bad idea I suppose. 

 

Why?

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

Why?

Well it all depends on what you’re self diagnosing no? If it’s simple like I’ve got a sore back but what if just feeling unwell? Starmer mentioned internal bleeding during the chat. How the hell you self diagnose that? What even did he mean?

[Lone Striker]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

IIRC, Starmer used physiotherapy as an example.  I could go to my GP and get referred to a physiotherapist either privately or in the public system here, but over the years I have generally self-referred (I've spent a fair bit of time in physio over the years).  When I was younger it was for sports injuries, and in more recent years it was mainly back trouble.  Generally a physiotherapist could and did identify the problem and the required treatment.  Once in a while, however, they weren't prepared to take chances, particularly if something was new or unexpected.  On those occasions they asked me to see my GP first.  It worked well.  Most of the time I was getting physiotherapy quickly without wasting time and money getting into and out of a GP's waiting room, but I got to go see a doctor whenever it was needed.

 

It would definitely work as an approach with physio, but I'm not sure what other specialist disciplines would be suitable for self-referral.  

I'd imagine "women's problems" ......... should be ideal candidates for self- referral to a gynae specialist.   If your GP's a man, a woman with  severe pain/discharge "down below"  is unlikely to benefit from seeing him first - it could be serious and needs seen by an expert asap.

 

[Lone Striker]

33 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I like the new GP system where you first of all speak to office staff who then either arrange a face to face or telephone consulation.  I have always been seen if I want a face to face but have also used the telephone too. I assume this system cuts down on the dafties misusing the system. However I am aware some people like the face to face and GPs can also pick up on other issues too.

Good point - one of the few positives changes to come out of the Covid crisis. 

[Shooter McGavin]

On 15/01/2023 at 17:35, Nucky Thompson said:

I would happily give Labour a chance to govern to see what they can do

I don’t even think in their current form they’d be that good, and I’m a labour leaning voter.

 

But the current government are beyond dangerous, and almost anything is an upgrade.

[Ulysses]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Well it all depends on what you’re self diagnosing no? If it’s simple like I’ve got a sore back but what if just feeling unwell? Starmer mentioned internal bleeding during the chat. How the hell you self diagnose that? What even did he mean?

 

I didn't hear Starmer's full comments, I just heard that he referred to physio.  It's a really common occurrence here that people would self-refer to physiotherapists, so it's easy for me to see how that would work.  But that's not so easy if you're used to your system and its way of doing things.  But the powers that be don't need a huge amount of analysis to decide if physio self-referral makes sense.  If looking at another country doesn't help, a quick pilot in a geographical area will test it effectively.  As for internal bleeding, I've no idea what Starmer was on about, but if you rock up to your physio with anything out of the ordinary here you get told to go to your GP anyway.  I can't see people self-referring to respiratory specialists or gastroenterologists or the like.  I can't think of any specialism other than physio where I self-refer or see others do so.  But given the prevalence of back pain in the UK, physio self-referral is one that could possibly improve waiting times for GP appointments.

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I didn't hear Starmer's full comments, I just heard that he referred to physio.  It's a really common occurrence here that people would self-refer to physiotherapists, so it's easy for me to see how that would work.  But that's not so easy if you're used to your system and its way of doing things.  But the powers that be don't need a huge amount of analysis to decide if physio self-referral makes sense.  If looking at another country doesn't help, a quick pilot in a geographical area will test it effectively.  As for internal bleeding, I've no idea what Starmer was on about, but if you rock up to your physio with anything out of the ordinary here you get told to go to your GP anyway.  I can't see people self-referring to respiratory specialists or gastroenterologists or the like.  I can't think of any specialism other than physio where I self-refer or see others do so.  But given the prevalence of back pain in the UK, physio self-referral is one that could possibly improve waiting times for GP appointments.

Yeah that’s all I meant with waiting to see when it’s fleshed out a bit more. 

[Ulysses]

11 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

I'd imagine "women's problems" ......... should be ideal candidates for self- referral to a gynae specialist.   If your GP's a man, a woman with  severe pain/discharge "down below"  is unlikely to benefit from seeing him first - it could be serious and needs seen by an expert asap.

 

 

I remember my GP (now retired) telling me once that the biggest problem with "downstairs problems" for both men and women was that the most sinister and dangerous illnesses (i.e. the stuff that really needs specialist diagnosis and action) tend to sneak up on people unawares because they have hardly any symptoms until it's too late.  That wasn't the most reassuring thing he ever said to me.   

[Dennis Reynolds]

I had to see a GP for an in-grown toenail years ago. Took one look and referred me to a podiatrist. Nowadays, I can self refer myself to a podiatrist freeing up a pretty pointless appointment with a GP. Seems like common sense to me. Have to admit though, the process (as with many things in the NHS) is pretty shit.

[Ulysses]

Just now, jack D and coke said:

Yeah that’s all I meant with waiting to see when it’s fleshed out a bit more. 

 

Yep, and I think that's easier to do if you pick one thing like physio and work that out.  Otherwise everyone will be self-referring for everything because Doctor Google frightened the bejasus out of them.   

[jack D and coke]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yep, and I think that's easier to do if you pick one thing like physio and work that out.  Otherwise everyone will be self-referring for everything because Doctor Google frightened the bejasus out of them.   

Exactly what my first thought was an all  

[The Mighty Thor]

I see Labour MPs didn't vote in today's Section 35 Bill vote.

 

Interesting when Keith is supposedly championing more devolved powers.

 

What an absolute shower they are. 

 

They'll get hounded in Scotland at the next GE. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I see Labour MPs didn't vote in today's Section 35 Bill vote.

 

Interesting when Keith is supposedly championing more devolved powers.

 

What an absolute shower they are. 

 

They'll get hounded in Scotland at the next GE. 

What was UK Labour's position?  Just ignore it and hope it goes away? 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I see Labour MPs didn't vote in today's Section 35 Bill vote.

 

Interesting when Keith is supposedly championing more devolved powers.

 

 

Maybe they just hate the trannies?

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

What was UK Labour's position?  Just ignore it and hope it goes away? 

 

Works for the Jehova's and the Moonies, tbf.

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Works for the Jehova's and the Moonies, tbf.

I'm having a mare.  The last two replies to me have gone way over my heid.

[il Duce McTarkin]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

I'm having a mare.  The last two replies to me have gone way over my heid.

 

I am a slavering goon, tbf.

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

I am a slavering goon, tbf.

At least you are in very good company 👍

[Spellczech]

I think it is fair to say that there is no quality in any of the parties anymore...

[Jeffros Furios]

33 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

I am a slavering prick, tbf

[il Duce McTarkin]

Just now, Jeffros Furios said:

 

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I think it is fair to say that there is no quality in any of the parties anymore...

See I disagree, I've dealt with three of my local MP's, sorry four, three are really decent people, I don't know where the good and bad start and finish though, it seems to be, and I'm maybe wrong, when they talk on national things and toe the party line? On a local level all but one MP I've had dealings with were fine.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Dawnrazor

[postage-stamp]

The Torys

[That thing you do]

On 15/01/2023 at 11:35, Nucky Thompson said:

I would happily give Labour a chance to govern to see what they can do

Red Tory Blue Tory, Brexit is biggest cause of chaos in NHS as cant get the staff and Liebor have no interest in fixing that. Ergo no thanks.

[Jeffros Furios]

12 minutes ago, That thing you do said:

Red Tory Blue Tory, Brexit is biggest cause of chaos in NHS as cant get the staff and Liebor have no interest in fixing that. Ergo no thanks.

I agree Brexit is the biggest problem regarding NHS staff , and to keep the red wall voters onside  Starmer won't discuss Bexit .

I'd imagine after a few years of power Labour and with more Brexiteers realising what a shambles its been , there would signs of a return to the EU .

The Labour cabinet will all want a return to the EU as its hurting the economy and we need the EU workers .

 

 

[trotter]

On 15/01/2023 at 14:09, Francis Albert said:

I think it would be a bit more complicated than that. Starmer gives an example of someone with a history of chronic back pain being able to make an appointment directly to a physiotherapist. Without trying the currently impossible step in many cases of making an appointment with a GP.

Whatever. The fact that Labour are actually considering reform of a failed system is good news. And a vote winner I think.

I don't think it's accurate to describe the NHS as a 'failed system'. 

 

In my mind, and I'm happy to hear opposing arguments, is that fundamentally the system has always worked. The problem lies in that it's getting hammered from both ends. Not only is it chronically underfunded and squeezed to the breaking point, but also the staff have been marginalized and repeatedly essentially broken by years of wage rise blockades. My mother and father (both recently retired) worked for the NHS so I heard about this first hand the level of disillusion from within. 

 

Combine this with the ongoing problem of the NHS not being used for what it was originally designed for. By that I mean people going to A&E on a Friday night with a headache because they can't wait until Monday morning to see a GP. That is also multiplied by the fact that often you can't get a GP appointment in a reasonable time frame which is what drives people to clog up A&E for non-emergency cases.

 

From my viewpoint, the entire healthcare system needs to be rebuilt from top to bottom. That probably sounds at odds with my opinion that it isn't a failed system, but it almost works in spite of itself right now, and that is a minor miracle. But simply putting more doctors and nurses in hospitals won't change that, even if we did have them available. 

[That thing you do]

18 minutes ago, Jeffros Furios said:

I agree Brexit is the biggest problem regarding NHS staff , and to keep the red wall voters onside  Starmer won't discuss Bexit .

I'd imagine after a few years of power Labour and with more Brexiteers realising what a shambles its been , there would signs of a return to the EU .

The Labour cabinet will all want a return to the EU as its hurting the economy and we need the EU workers .

 

 

Maybe it could play out that way. But Im its hope more than expectation.

 

However, seems a slam dunk Red Tories are in next election so lets hope this is what happens and/or Scotland gtfa from the UK and into Europe that way.

[i wish jj was my dad]

On 17/01/2023 at 23:05, Dawnrazor said:

See I disagree, I've dealt with three of my local MP's, sorry four, three are really decent people, I don't know where the good and bad start and finish though, it seems to be, and I'm maybe wrong, when they talk on national things and toe the party line? On a local level all but one MP I've had dealings with were fine.

Voting by conscience would be a start.  Being tied to party lines so tightly hampers democracy.  Tory MPs being manhandled by JRM to support Truss and MSPs voting on party lines on GR Bill does little to give us confidence in the quality or integrity of our elected members.  I know it is unfair and like you I have witnessed proper decency from some politicians but I start on the basis that they are all pricks until they prove me wrong. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Excellent article about JC 

 

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/killing-jeremy-corbyn

[jack D and coke]

He’s a Tory plant is Keith.
I’m almost sure of it. 

[Pans Jambo]

Exactly why is it so difficult to see a GP now? Was only a few years ago you could get a same or next day appointment easily. What changed?

[pharmaceutical01]

4 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Exactly why is it so difficult to see a GP now? Was only a few years ago you could get a same or next day appointment easily. What changed?

COVID - GPs shut their doors and everyone else picked up the slack. They got used to it and don't want to go back to the 'bad' old ways

[XB52]

If I had a gun against my head and forced to vote for Labour or tories I think I would choose the blue ones. They have never hidden the fact they are cheats, liars, tax dodging scum. Labour kid on they are better but they are just red tories, led by Tony Blair Mark II

[BlueRiver]

8 minutes ago, XB52 said:

If I had a gun against my head and forced to vote for Labour or tories I think I would choose the blue ones. They have never hidden the fact they are cheats, liars, tax dodging scum. Labour kid on they are better but they are just red tories, led by Tony Blair Mark II

 

Christ nae wonder this country is a mess. 

[ri Alban]

5 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Christ nae wonder this country is a mess. 

I'd take the bullet.

[BlueRiver]

Just now, ri Alban said:

I'd take the bullet.

 

Surely always the preferable option to voting Tory! 🤣

[ri Alban]

3 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Surely always the preferable option to voting Tory! 🤣

What's Starmer all about, btw. He's a total shitebag on Brexit and thinks we should have a private healthcare system. He's a Tory, just like Blair, but at least Blair made sure the wee people ate some cake. Starmer won't even stand with the Unions. They should all cut ties with labour.

Edited February 6, 2023 by ri Alban

[The Real Maroonblood]

49 minutes ago, pharmaceutical01 said:

COVID - GPs shut their doors and everyone else picked up the slack. They got used to it and don't want to go back to the 'bad' old ways

Sad but true.