Johnson confidence vote is on

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

18 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

He had a reputation as left of centre in Labour terms in Attlee's days but by 1964 he had moved towards the centre and there was not much that was Left about his Administration. Pragmatist and modernist (the white heat of technology and all that) and good on social issues - legalising homosexuality and such. But not much socialism.

 

I’ve thought a lot about why so many people lean to the right - why so many people vote for a party like the Conservatives who, even as far back as the last election, were clearly a bunch of spivs and shithouses.

 

I think the answer it that socialism and a lot of left wing ideas require generosity on the part of individuals. If you’re comfortable or well off, you have to be willing to see money diverted away from you to people or things that need it more. Sad to say, society is very selfish. For all the talk about the cost of living crisis, there are millions of people in the UK living without hardship, with enough money in their pockets. A lot of them aren’t interested in the greater good, or not if it comes at a cost to them. The Tories are more likely to make rich people richer, and even fairly well off people even more well off. So if you’re looking out for yourself, you’re more likely to vote for them. It’s v depressing

[The Mighty Thor]

6 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’ve thought a lot about why so many people lean to the right - why so many people vote for a party like the Conservatives who, even as far back as the last election, were clearly a bunch of spivs and shithouses.

 

I think the answer it that socialism and a lot of left wing ideas require generosity on the part of individuals. If you’re comfortable or well off, you have to be willing to see money diverted away from you to people or things that need it more. Sad to say, society is very selfish. For all the talk about the cost of living crisis, there are millions of people in the UK living without hardship, with enough money in their pockets. A lot of them aren’t interested in the greater good, or not if it comes at a cost to them. The Tories are more likely to make rich people richer, and even fairly well off people even more well off. So if you’re looking out for yourself, you’re more likely to vote for them. It’s v depressing

I'd agree but that number of people is not as big as you think it is. 

What there is in the UK is a very large number of people who are able to access unsecured debt. There's an awful lot of people who think they're middle class who are up to their eyeballs in debt. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'd agree but that number of people is not as big as you think it is. 

What there is in the UK is a very large number of people who are able to access unsecured debt. There's an awful lot of people who think they're middle class who are up to their eyeballs in debt. 

I’ve probably got it back to front. I think a better way to put it is that there aren’t enough people facing genuine hardship to give the left a real chance of government 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

11 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’ve thought a lot about why so many people lean to the right - why so many people vote for a party like the Conservatives who, even as far back as the last election, were clearly a bunch of spivs and shithouses.

 

I think the answer it that socialism and a lot of left wing ideas require generosity on the part of individuals. If you’re comfortable or well off, you have to be willing to see money diverted away from you to people or things that need it more. Sad to say, society is very selfish. For all the talk about the cost of living crisis, there are millions of people in the UK living without hardship, with enough money in their pockets. A lot of them aren’t interested in the greater good, or not if it comes at a cost to them. The Tories are more likely to make rich people richer, and even fairly well off people even more well off. So if you’re looking out for yourself, you’re more likely to vote for them. It’s v depressing

I actually think this is an old trope. Labour and "social democrat" type parties now capture more professional voters, who tend to be better off, than right of centre parties. The trouble is that the old divisions were set at a time of heavier industry and a "route map" for career and life. That's gone. Left of centre parties have paid lip service to it and ignored it and consequently a vaccuum has opened up for people to fill. The reason why Fartrage and Johnson have filled it is they have created bogeymen that the new lefties despise and that's enough reason for it to resonate.

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’ve probably got it back to front. I think a better way to put it is that there aren’t enough people facing genuine hardship to give the left a real chance of government 

Give it a few months. Sadly the number of people facing genuine hardship will multiply rapidly. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I actually think this is an old trope. Labour and "social democrat" type parties now capture more professional voters, who tend to be better off, than right of centre parties. The trouble is that the old divisions were set at a time of heavier industry and a "route map" for career and life. That's gone. Left of centre parties have paid lip service to it and ignored it and consequently a vaccuum has opened up for people to fill. The reason why Fartrage and Johnson have filled it is they have created bogeymen that the new lefties despise and that's enough reason for it to resonate.

Oh, I’m not pretending that Labour are left leaning (or they haven’t been since grandad Corbyn departed). I just don’t think this is a country that likes the left’s ideas

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, The Mighty Thor said:

Give it a few months. Sadly the number of people facing genuine hardship will multiply rapidly. 

Is true, for sure

[A Boy Named Crow]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Utterly demented. Who says we’re not different. 

I know it shouldn't be a surprise, but the British public really are mind buggeringly thick!

[kila]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Oh, I’m not pretending that Labour are left leaning (or they haven’t been since grandad Corbyn departed). I just don’t think this is a country that likes the left’s ideas

Or the right wing media has convinced them, especially those in poverty who vote against their interests to protect the rich. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I know it shouldn't be a surprise, but the British public really are mind buggeringly thick!

Yet it's that kind of sneer that causes modern political division.

[A Boy Named Crow]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Yet it's that kind of sneer that causes modern political division.

Aye, fair 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, kila said:

Or the right wing media has convinced them, especially those in poverty who vote against their interests to protect the rich. 

That's another thing, the classic "vote against your interests", assuming that you should simply vote for whomever makes you better off. Perhaps if political calculus stopped assuming that and actually listened to voters, there might be more engagement.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Just now, kila said:

Or the right wing media has convinced them, especially those in poverty who vote against their interests to protect the rich. 

A lot of facets to it but (IMO) the UK is a country where everyone agrees that socialism is great, provided they don’t have to pay for it in any way.

 

It’s the same as everyone agreeing that more housing is needed but no-one wanting those houses built anywhere near them

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Yet it's that kind of sneer that causes modern political division.

I'd argue it is a fact rather than a sneer. 

No ones vote is any more important than anyone else's, but there are some rockets in these islands. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'd argue it is a fact rather than a sneer. 

No ones vote is any more important than anyone else's, but there are some rockets in these islands. 

50% of the population are of below average intelligence. Politicians would do well to remember that rather than talk to their Twitter echo chambers.

 

For example, "immigration" was a key Brexit issue and of course immediately led to accusations of racism. Yet the nuances where a tradie trying to pay a mortgage and make ends meet was being undercut by Eastern Europeans doing a version of Auf Wiedersehen Pet camping in together and saving costs wasn't considered. Result? Tradie votes Brexit.

 

I'm not saying it's possible to engage with everyone but engaging with no one just leads to the world of micro segments, Facebook targeting and no appreciation of nuance.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

50% of the population are of below average intelligence. Politicians would do well to remember that rather than talk to their Twitter echo chambers.

 

For example, "immigration" was a key Brexit issue and of course immediately led to accusations of racism. Yet the nuances where a tradie trying to pay a mortgage and make ends meet was being undercut by Eastern Europeans doing a version of Auf Wiedersehen Pet camping in together and saving costs wasn't considered. Result? Tradie votes Brexit.

 

I'm not saying it's possible to engage with everyone but engaging with no one just leads to the world of micro segments, Facebook targeting and no appreciation of nuance.

Sadly nuance left the building at the same time as integrity. 

They've been replaced by the post truth double speak that marked the Trump era and Goebbels mantra of repeating the lie often enough. 

It's no coincidence that Bannon was advising this lot. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Sadly nuance left the building at the same time as integrity. 

They've been replaced by the post truth double speak that marked the Trump era and Goebbels mantra of repeating the lie often enough. 

It's no coincidence that Bannon was advising this lot. 

Nuance left the building at the time of the Iraq war. It just reached new heights over the past few years.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, I P Knightley said:

 

Her sister,  Citronella, is far more reliable. No flies on her! 

Aw that's good, I had a go with Parrafinalia but I admit defeat there

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

50% of the population are of below average intelligence. Politicians would do well to remember that rather than talk to their Twitter echo chambers.

 

For example, "immigration" was a key Brexit issue and of course immediately led to accusations of racism. Yet the nuances where a tradie trying to pay a mortgage and make ends meet was being undercut by Eastern Europeans doing a version of Auf Wiedersehen Pet camping in together and saving costs wasn't considered. Result? Tradie votes Brexit.

 

I'm not saying it's possible to engage with everyone but engaging with no one just leads to the world of micro segments, Facebook targeting and no appreciation of nuance.

Whatever the answer to that was it certainly shouldn't have been demonise Johnny Foreigner or minorities. That the ruling class let us down isn't in doubt but playing to the lowest common denominator never ends well. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

12 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Whatever the answer to that was it certainly shouldn't have been demonise Johnny Foreigner or minorities. That the ruling class let us down isn't in doubt but playing to the lowest common denominator never ends well. 

Not saying it should be but this was just one example of how part of the population were perceiving the single market and freedom of movement. What they heard from that campaign was that the world would basically end if Brexit was voted for (coming from a politician you weren't going to believe that) versus Turks were coming and even more "foreigners" were therefore coming to take work. Sneering at those perceptions, even if you think they are misguided, doesn't help anyone.

[The Real Maroonblood]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Utterly demented. Who says we’re not different. 

Listening to these clowns proves it.

[i wish jj was my dad]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Not saying it should be but this was just one example of how part of the population were perceiving the single market and freedom of movement. What they heard from that campaign was that the world would basically end if Brexit was voted for (coming from a politician you weren't going to believe that) versus Turks were coming and even more "foreigners" were therefore coming to take work. Sneering at those perceptions, even if you think they are misguided, doesn't help anyone.

Sneering at politicians for telling lies knowing full well the damage they are doing is not something I am minded to apologise for. 

Ditto for being exasperated and angry at people for being stupid enough to believe the shite they were being fed. 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

50% of the population are of below average intelligence. Politicians would do well to remember that rather than talk to their Twitter echo chambers.

 

For example, "immigration" was a key Brexit issue and of course immediately led to accusations of racism. Yet the nuances where a tradie trying to pay a mortgage and make ends meet was being undercut by Eastern Europeans doing a version of Auf Wiedersehen Pet camping in together and saving costs wasn't considered. Result? Tradie votes Brexit.

 

I'm not saying it's possible to engage with everyone but engaging with no one just leads to the world of micro segments, Facebook targeting and no appreciation of nuance.

Oh, I think the politicians are already well aware of the huge number of folk who just don't understand basic stuff.

 

It gives them an easy route into delivering meaningless sound bites (£350m for the NHS per week ....get Brexit done....levelling up ...etc) because thats the only level which the hard of understanding are tuned in to.

 

I do find it weird though just how many "working class" folk in the North of England seem to despise Labour.   It might not be the majority, but it  seems to be a  substantial number.    Why are they angry at a  party who only get into government once every 15 or 20 years ?     Was Blair not socialist enough for them ?  If so, why are they voting Tory now ?         

 

 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

5 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Oh, I think the politicians are already well aware of the huge number of folk who just don't understand basic stuff.

 

It gives them an easy route into delivering meaningless sound bites (£350m for the NHS per week ....get Brexit done....levelling up ...etc) because thats the only level which the hard of understanding are tuned in to.

 

I do find it weird though just how many "working class" folk in the North of England seem to despise Labour.   It might not be the majority, but it  seems to be a  substantial number.    Why are they angry at a  party who only get into government once every 15 or 20 years ?     Was Blair not socialist enough for them ?  If so, why are they voting Tory now ?         

 

 

Soundbites which gave people a reason to vote again. This is a generational thing. Look at what Blair won the election with in 2005 and the turnout. The northern English had basically stopped voting and Labour had begun to lose to the SNP in Scotland as people in Scotland had an alternative. Did people feel let down by Blair and Brown? Possibly. Ten or so years later and people had got out of the habit of voting Labour who had duly taken a kicking over the financial meltdown in 2008. Why should people assume that people would go back to a "natural constituency"?

[Weakened Offender]

6 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

 

I do find it weird though just how many "working class" folk in the North of England seem to despise Labour.   It might not be the majority, but it  seems to be a  substantial number.    Why are they angry at a  party who only get into government once every 15 or 20 years ?     

 

Because they read the papers and believe what they read. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Because they read the papers and believe what they read. 

If it was just the "media", why did they stop voting in the same numbers for Labour a decade or so earlier?

[Weakened Offender]

8 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

I know it shouldn't be a surprise, but the British public really are mind buggeringly thick!

 

Scary. 

[Weakened Offender]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If it was just the "media", why did they stop voting in the same numbers for Labour a decade or so earlier?

 

Many were moving towards UKip and all the other right wing loony parties by that time. Most Labour voters in the North of England (and the Central Belt here) were/are actually quite right wing. 

[Space Mackerel]

Lol.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-25/a-defiant-boris-johnson-says-he-s-staying-uk-leader-into-2030s

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Many were moving towards UKip and all the other right wing loony parties by that time. Most Labour voters in the North of England (and the Central Belt here) were/are actually quite right wing. 

If you mean more "socially conservative" as right wing then I would agree. Again though, nature abhors a vacuum. Remember Brown and "that bloody woman"? That epitomised how they treated their natural constituency at that time. The Tories, ironically, are now suffering something similar in their true blue heartlands since a lot of those were Remainers. Queuing up at passport control? Darling daughter can't spend a year "finding herself" in Europe? Yep, that's a Brexit difference.

[Weakened Offender]

9 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If you mean more "socially conservative" as right wing then I would agree. Again though, nature abhors a vacuum. Remember Brown and "that bloody woman"? That epitomised how they treated their natural constituency at that time. The Tories, ironically, are now suffering something similar in their true blue heartlands since a lot of those were Remainers. Queuing up at passport control? Darling daughter can't spend a year "finding herself" in Europe? Yep, that's a Brexit difference.

 

Brown was right to call that wee auld wifey out. It was the backtracking that finished him. He should have stuck to his guns. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

12 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Brown was right to call that wee auld wifey out. It was the backtracking that finished him. He should have stuck to his guns. 

Maybe, but how did it play to the other "wee wifies" watching on TV?

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Soundbites which gave people a reason to vote again. This is a generational thing. Look at what Blair won the election with in 2005 and the turnout. The northern English had basically stopped voting and Labour had begun to lose to the SNP in Scotland as people in Scotland had an alternative. Did people feel let down by Blair and Brown? Possibly. Ten or so years later and people had got out of the habit of voting Labour who had duly taken a kicking over the financial meltdown in 2008. Why should people assume that people would go back to a "natural constituency"?

Fair comment, and probably true to say that a large number had just stopped voting through apathy.  For many of these "red wall"  constituencies to suddenly vote for Boris's mob on the back of vacuous soundbites really just shows that their apathy has morphed into  gullibility, imo.   It'll be interesting to see how many of these "new blue" areas stick with the Tories under a different leader, and how many revert to Labour.

 

 

[Weakened Offender]

17 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Maybe, but how did it play to the other "wee wifies" watching on TV?

 

They were likely turning anyway. Race politics was about to change everything. 

[I P Knightley]

8 hours ago, Smithee said:

Aw that's good, I had a go with Parrafinalia but I admit defeat there

 

If you hadn't started it, I may never have been inspired to dig deep. You are truly Roger Federer to my Novak Djokovic. Even though I say so myself😃

[tightrope]

Anyone that believes the press, votes Tory, is racist...( Usually same thing).., believes kids should go to school based on religion or money earned by parents, is an absolute ****ing wank stain. There is only one answer. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

8 minutes ago, tightrope said:

Anyone that believes the press, votes Tory, is racist...( Usually same thing).., believes kids should go to school based on religion or money earned by parents, is an absolute ****ing wank stain. There is only one answer. 

Wow!

 

Let's start with "money earned by parents". Presumably you're having a crack at fee paying schools? I suppose selection by postcode where more affluent parents buy houses to get their offspring into a school of choice by geography is ok though?

[tightrope]

7 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Wow!

 

Let's start with "money earned by parents". Presumably you're having a crack at fee paying schools? I suppose selection by postcode where more affluent parents buy houses to get their offspring into a school of choice by geography is ok though?

Nope, next hissy fit big man ?

[Lone Striker]

58 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Many were moving towards UKip and all the other right wing loony parties by that time. Most Labour voters in the North of England (and the Central Belt here) were/are actually quite right wing. 

This is an interesting thread (much better than the Hearts  summer transfer thread  !!   ).   

 

I agree with you about many moving to UKIP a few years back - but I find it hard to believe that these voters did it because they suddenly took on a right-wing view of everything.   In the case of Farage and Boris, they're disrupters.... mavericks.... charismatic in an odd way - maybe thats what attracts some disillusioned voters to them.  Not because their new voters  see themselves as born again  right-wingers, but they're just attracted to leaders who sound "different" and somehow connect with them in a way that trad politicians don't.     Plus, it helps if they keep the message simple and just campaign on a single subject (Brexit).

 

So for many voters, its no longer a Right v Left choice.      Its Charismatic Leader  v Boring Leader.   Policy consideration hardly comes into it.   Hence Trump.  Hence Boris.  

 

 

[Unknown user]

32 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

If you hadn't started it, I may never have been inspired to dig deep. You are truly Roger Federer to my Novak Djokovic. Even though I say so myself😃

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

12 minutes ago, tightrope said:

Nope, next hissy fit big man ?

Not a hissy fit but labelling 14 million odd people as racist is some claim.

 

So you are ok with postcode selection then. Why?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

13 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

This is an interesting thread (much better than the Hearts  summer transfer thread  !!   ).   

 

I agree with you about many moving to UKIP a few years back - but I find it hard to believe that these voters did it because they suddenly took on a right-wing view of everything.   In the case of Farage and Boris, they're disrupters.... mavericks.... charismatic in an odd way - maybe thats what attracts some disillusioned voters to them.  Not because their new voters  see themselves as born again  right-wingers, but they're just attracted to leaders who sound "different" and somehow connect with them in a way that trad politicians don't.     Plus, it helps if they keep the message simple and just campaign on a single subject (Brexit).

 

So for many voters, its no longer a Right v Left choice.      Its Charismatic Leader  v Boring Leader.   Policy consideration hardly comes into it.   Hence Trump.  Hence Boris.  

 

 

Agree with all of this, especially the first sentence!

[Kiwidoug]

One thing is certain.  The next election will be boring leader v equally boring leader.  The Lib Dems might have a field day.

 

If Boris stays on as an MP and contests the next election I reckon he could make a comeback if the conservatives take a thrashing.

[tightrope]

6 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Not a hissy fit but labelling 14 million odd people as racist is some claim.

 

So you are ok with postcode selection then. Why?

I would say that Brexit happened mainly due to immigration in England. So yes, I would say that there are a lot of racists in England, my opinion of course. You may deem racism in an other way. Your opinion of course. I would wager that there are at least 14 million people in the UK with some form of racist opinion. 

 

As for post code selection, how would you do it? What's the answer? You stopping people buying houses now? In my experience people are more likely to use a relative's address. Gran etc.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, tightrope said:

I would say that Brexit happened mainly due to immigration in England. So yes, I would say that there are a lot of racists in England, my opinion of course. You may deem racism in an other way. Your opinion of course. I would wager that there are at least 14 million people in the UK with some form of racist opinion. 

 

As for post code selection, how would you do it? What's the answer? You stopping people buying houses now? In my experience people are more likely to use a relative's address. Gran etc.

I'd argue that questioning immigration policy anywhere doesn't make you a racist. Equally, I would also argue it is on politicians to make a positive case for migration. I migrated to Oz because of my wife's skillset being in demand, not because I just could. So when the single market allowed freedom of movement and people sought a better life in the UK, the population there found that confrontational. To then be told when they questioned why that you were "racist" to even ask the question is enough to get the hackles of anyone up. Of course, the same migrants were effectively doing the jobs that no one else wanted to do but no one was saying that.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

This is an interesting thread (much better than the Hearts  summer transfer thread  !!   ).   

 

I agree with you about many moving to UKIP a few years back - but I find it hard to believe that these voters did it because they suddenly took on a right-wing view of everything.   In the case of Farage and Boris, they're disrupters.... mavericks.... charismatic in an odd way - maybe thats what attracts some disillusioned voters to them.  Not because their new voters  see themselves as born again  right-wingers, but they're just attracted to leaders who sound "different" and somehow connect with them in a way that trad politicians don't.     Plus, it helps if they keep the message simple and just campaign on a single subject (Brexit).

 

So for many voters, its no longer a Right v Left choice.      Its Charismatic Leader  v Boring Leader.   Policy consideration hardly comes into it.   Hence Trump.  Hence Boris.  

 

 

There's an element of truth in amongst all that. 

 

The rise of the cult. The populist policies and 'enigmatic' character of a Farage or Johnson type would undoubtedly appeal to a lot of people, and it obviously did. The trouble is once you scratch the surface there's an absence of substance and truth.

 

For me what it did was give a voice and a tacit acceptance of views that were always there, which the Brexit campaign, and ultimately what followed, played on beautifully. Call it racism, call it xenophobia , call it whatever but it became OK, in fact it became a mark of your Britishness to call out Johnny Foreigner for ruining our country, holding it back from the glory that awaits it in Empire 2.0

 

And now here we are. Here we are. 

[Dennis Denuto]

41 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There's an element of truth in amongst all that. 

 

The rise of the cult. The populist policies and 'enigmatic' character of a Farage or Johnson type would undoubtedly appeal to a lot of people, and it obviously did. The trouble is once you scratch the surface there's an absence of substance and truth.

 

For me what it did was give a voice and a tacit acceptance of views that were always there, which the Brexit campaign, and ultimately what followed, played on beautifully. Call it racism, call it xenophobia , call it whatever but it became OK, in fact it became a mark of your Britishness to call out Johnny Foreigner for ruining our country, holding it back from the glory that awaits it in Empire 2.0

 

And now here we are. Here we are. 

What i find quite interesting is the airtime given to Farage in the years leading up to the EU Referendum and then the airtime since it.

 

He was given far too much coverage for someone leading an insignificant political party that at its heart was about leaving the EU which at the time was a pretty extreme and marginal view.  This brought the whole issue to the front and centre of British Politics when in reality it wasn't something many people cared about.

 

Then as we actually leave the EU, Farage disappears from our screens.............

 

[The Mighty Thor]

7 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

Then as we actually leave the EU, Farage disappears from our screens.............

 

Farage achieved more than he could have wished for.

 

Johnson shat it in 2019 when he agreed a grubby deal with Farage to stand down the UKIP bangers by effectively subsuming them into the extreme wing of the Tory party which at that time was the ERG. 

 

The Tory party now is not the one of the blue rinsers of Thatcher & Major's eras. Its now a monstrous mish mash of the UKIP, ERG & BNP with it's core function of English Nationalism & superiority. 

 

The inevitable direction of travel is being played out as their policies are increasingly fascist in their purpose. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I'd argue that questioning immigration policy anywhere doesn't make you a racist. Equally, I would also argue it is on politicians to make a positive case for migration. I migrated to Oz because of my wife's skillset being in demand, not because I just could. So when the single market allowed freedom of movement and people sought a better life in the UK, the population there found that confrontational. To then be told when they questioned why that you were "racist" to even ask the question is enough to get the hackles of anyone up. Of course, the same migrants were effectively doing the jobs that no one else wanted to do but no one was saying that.

TBF the SNP have been saying for years that we needed immigration. Just not necessarily to do the jobs that many of us seem to think are beneath us. Calling people racists for questioning immigration policy was stupid but there was and still is a lot of racism in the UK fuelled by the Mail and Express. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by i wish jj was my dad

[Francis Albert]

37 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Farage achieved more than he could have wished for.

 

Johnson shat it in 2019 when he agreed a grubby deal with Farage to stand down the UKIP bangers by effectively subsuming them into the extreme wing of the Tory party which at that time was the ERG. 

 

The Tory party now is not the one of the blue rinsers of Thatcher & Major's eras. Its now a monstrous mish mash of the UKIP, ERG & BNP with it's core function of English Nationalism & superiority. 

 

The inevitable direction of travel is being played out as their policies are increasingly fascist in their purpose. 

People who indiscriminatingly throw around the word fascist (and racist for that matter) are part of the problem, or perhaps a symptom, of the decline in political discourse.

But your reference to English Nationalism is interesting. As someone posted, for decades there was no strong anti-EU presence in UK politics. But as the EU increasing moved in the direction of becoming a quasi-state rather than a common market or primarily economic union  English nationalism grew in strength. As indeed has happened in many EU nations. The simple desire for independence was certainly a factor in Brexit. Not too hard for Scots to understand surely.