Johnson confidence vote is on

[The Mighty Thor]

19 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

People who indiscriminatingly throw around the word fascist (and racist for that matter) are part of the problem, or perhaps a symptom, of the decline in political discourse.

But your reference to English Nationalism is interesting. As someone posted, for decades there was no strong anti-EU presence in UK politics. But as the EU increasing moved in the direction of becoming a quasi-state rather than a common market or primarily economic union  English nationalism grew in strength. As indeed has happened in many EU nations. The simple desire for independence was certainly a factor in Brexit. Not too hard for Scots to understand surely.

 

Removing the right to protest. Removing the ECHR. Sending 'illegals' to a third country. What are those policies if not fascist in their purpose. 

 

People accepting that direction of travel are part of the problem. The decline in the discourse comes from people saying 'doesn't affect me' so it's fine to remove rights and to 'resettle' people. 

 

Scots see it. Scots also see it for what it is. There was no loss of 'British' independence from the EU to reclaim. What did the EU take away from the UK that the UK had to get back in order to function as a democracy? One thing will do.

 

English Nationalism/Exceptionalism is a very different beast from Scottish Independence.

[Dennis Denuto]

15 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

People who indiscriminatingly throw around the word fascist (and racist for that matter) are part of the problem, or perhaps a symptom, of the decline in political discourse.

But your reference to English Nationalism is interesting. As someone posted, for decades there was no strong anti-EU presence in UK politics. But as the EU increasing moved in the direction of becoming a quasi-state rather than a common market or primarily economic union  English nationalism grew in strength. As indeed has happened in many EU nations. The simple desire for independence was certainly a factor in Brexit. Not too hard for Scots to understand surely.

 

But it was only framed as about Sovereignty, the UK was still a Sovereign State, unlike Scotland. I agree there was a marginal element that wanted out of the EU for this reason, but eventually it was immigration and peoples ingrained mistrust of these immigrants that was the argument used to win the vote. 
 

British Nationalism was given more airtime than it deserved and it created this messed up situation we are in now, all imo of course. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Brown was right to call that wee auld wifey out. It was the backtracking that finished him. He should have stuck to his guns. 

Agreed . She was a bigoted boot 🥾 his only crime was to be caught on audio 

[i wish jj was my dad]

Brown's problem was that he had to speak to real people and it was something he was incapable of doing. He then lashed out and blamed his staff IIRC for his own failings. 

As much as he is nowhere as bad as the current mob he was as out of touch with everyday reality as the rest of the political class That was a big factor in the rise of the populist despicables we have today. 

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said:

What i find quite interesting is the airtime given to Farage in the years leading up to the EU Referendum and then the airtime since it.

 

He was given far too much coverage for someone leading an insignificant political party that at its heart was about leaving the EU which at the time was a pretty extreme and marginal view.  This brought the whole issue to the front and centre of British Politics when in reality it wasn't something many people cared about.

 

Then as we actually leave the EU, Farage disappears from our screens.............

 

Not if you watch that pile of pish GBeebies. 
Ask his shit opinion on just about everything. 
That channel is like UKIP tv. 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

TBF the SNP have been saying for years that we needed immigration. Just not necessarily to do the jobs that many of us seem to think are beneath us. Calling people racists for questioning immigration policy was stupid but there was and still is a lot of racism in the UK fuelled by the Mail and Express. 

The mail and express etc are just foul. The amount of people who pay any attention to and post their drivel is mind boggling.

We become racists due to their stoking of the fires. We’re as a bad as anywhere else but Scotlands birth rate is low. I think it’s 1.3 or something. It’s a long road to recover from rates as low as that.
We either face the fact we need immigration (and a lot of it) or it’ll end up deserted in parts. 
Atm we can’t do much about it either. 

[Dennis Denuto]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Not if you watch that pile of pish GBeebies. 
Ask his shit opinion on just about everything. 
That channel is like UKIP tv. 

I don't think that anyone watches that, it was mainly the BBC that I have issues with in this regard.

 

GBNews isn't Main Stream Media imo

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Dennis Denuto said:

I don't think that anyone watches that, it was mainly the BBC that I have issues with in this regard.

 

GBNews isn't Main Stream Media imo

Oh yeah they gave him far too much airtime for some reason I agree with you. 
 

[The Mighty Thor]

59 minutes ago, Dennis Denuto said:

But it was only framed as about Sovereignty, the UK was still a Sovereign State.

Make no mistake, this will be exactly what the next GE will be fought on. 

 

'Labour and the SNP coalition of chaos are trying to steal your Brexit'

 

The potential leaders are broadly all for removing the UK from the ECHR and are all trying to 'out extremist' each other on the Rwanda plan.

 

The reality is that 6 years later and Global Britain has reclaimed control of absolutely hee haw. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

41 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Make no mistake, this will be exactly what the next GE will be fought on. 

 

'Labour and the SNP coalition of chaos are trying to steal your Brexit'

 

The potential leaders are broadly all for removing the UK from the ECHR and are all trying to 'out extremist' each other on the Rwanda plan.

 

The reality is that 6 years later and Global Britain has reclaimed control of absolutely hee haw. 

Sadly, you sum it up rather well.

When the world is on fire these are the last people you would choose to be in charge. 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Removing the right to protest. Removing the ECHR. Sending 'illegals' to a third country. What are those policies if not fascist in their purpose. 

 

People accepting that direction of travel are part of the problem. The decline in the discourse comes from people saying 'doesn't affect me' so it's fine to remove rights and to 'resettle' people. 

 

Scots see it. Scots also see it for what it is. There was no loss of 'British' independence from the EU to reclaim. What did the EU take away from the UK that the UK had to get back in order to function as a democracy? One thing will do.

 

English Nationalism/Exceptionalism is a very different beast from Scottish Independence.

Possibly a first for JKB - looks like all the posters above are roughly in broad agreement about how we got to where we are now, with most of it built on lies or  unwarranted xenophobia about bogeymen.

 

Christ, I'm even close to  agreeing with Thor  for once  😉  .... well, almost.     😜  

 

  I'd say there's definitely some similarities in the concept of  independence  as trumpeted by Vote Leave/ERG   and the SNP view up here.   Both took/take exception to the fact that some powers lay elsewhere.    The SNP (thankfully) haven't yet stooped to using the "take back control" slogan - but thats basically what they want to do (from WM).  

 

In terms of future trade after Brexit & SCexit, both probably want to have their cake and eat it.     Who knows what types of hardball games would be a feature of a  UK Withdrawal Agreement and post-Indy trade deal with rUK.    Thats for another thread, obviously.

 

The difference is (as you alluded to)   that  Holyrood (under whatever major party)  would probably use the new powers in a positive way to try to grow our economy and attempt some proper long-term "levelling up" - whereas the WM Tories refuse to acknowledge the economic slump which was always going to accompany  Brexit.  Lucky for them, they've got Covid and now a war in Ukraine to blame everything  on. 

 

As for laws repatriated from the EU, I can't name any - but there were loads written in to UK law already under the Withdrawal Agreement.   The UK government of the day can try to pass Bills to repeal or amend them.

[SectionDJambo]

Those serious contenders for the Conservative leadership, and thereby PM, are not going to deviate much from Johnson's policies. You would imagine that many people who voted for the Conservatives last time, would have only wanted rid of Johnson because his lies and behaviour were threatening to result in a calamity for the Conservatives at the next General Election. It won't have been the policies put forward that worried them, but rather the man in charge losing the majority in Parliament to pass them in future.

Anyone wanting to succeed him by a vote of Conservative members isn't going to win by promoting different policies. The party members will just have to be convinced of the responsible attitude and integrity of a candidate, and the ability of that candidate to get their current policies through Parliament, without any Johnson type scandal along the way.

After that, the UK electorate get to give their verdict in the next couple of years.

[I P Knightley]

This is the shame of this leadership election (not 'shame boo hoo' but 'the whole fokking lot of them should be ashamed of themselves'): They only have to appeal to the majority of 100-150k members of Conservative associations around the country. Those people are clustered in certain constituencies. So to appeal to that tiny, skewed sample, they only need to say,  I'll lower taxes and ship immigrants to Rwanda. No need to commit to supporting education or the NHS; definitely no need to commit to tackling childhood poverty or the cost of living crisis. Essentially, the more heartless you are, the greater your chance of success. 

 

I hope that Labour go for the VONC. They may not win it as the tory MPs, despite being in disarray and rebellion against their leader (and, by extension, his current cabinet) will likely really round to preserve their constituency seats for another 2 years. 

[Lone Striker]

Jeremy the Hunt has stated that he'll have Esther McVey as his deputy if he wins - that alone pretty much rules himself out, I'd have thought.  

[Weakened Offender]

3 hours ago, Dennis Denuto said:

I don't think that anyone watches that, it was mainly the BBC that I have issues with in this regard.

 

 

The BBC gave Farage a ridiculous amount of airtime at a time when he was just a racist pain in the arse. Around the same time the BBC was allowing Johnson to polish off his act on stuff like HIGNFY. Neither was accidental, both were designed. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

56 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

The BBC gave Farage a ridiculous amount of airtime at a time when he was just a racist pain in the arse. Around the same time the BBC was allowing Johnson to polish off his act on stuff like HIGNFY. Neither was accidental, both were designed. 

I never understood why the BBC or other media outlets offered such a platform to Farage. Johnson was always a 'personality' who moved in the right circles. 

I don't believe they promoted either of the pricks out of racism or xenophobia though. 

[Dennis Denuto]

2 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I never understood why the BBC or other media outlets offered such a platform to Farage. Johnson was always a 'personality' who moved in the right circles. 

I don't believe they promoted either of the pricks out of racism or xenophobia though. 

The people who run these organisations are often ones who hold those views, the Eton/Public School Boy/Please give me a Knighthood brigade are not usually known for their wokeness.

 

There was to me clearly  a move within the big respected media companies to promote Brexit and get it moved up the political agenda, for a variety of reasons.

[Francis Albert]

8 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Removing the right to protest. Removing the ECHR. Sending 'illegals' to a third country. What are those policies if not fascist in their purpose. 

 

People accepting that direction of travel are part of the problem. The decline in the discourse comes from people saying 'doesn't affect me' so it's fine to remove rights and to 'resettle' people. 

 

Scots see it. Scots also see it for what it is. There was no loss of 'British' independence from the EU to reclaim. What did the EU take away from the UK that the UK had to get back in order to function as a democracy? One thing will do.

 

English Nationalism/Exceptionalism is a very different beast from Scottish Independence.

The glaringly obvious answer is the right  of the UK and its democratically elected Parliament to decide who gets to stay in the UK. Almost if not all nations control immigration. Even the blessed EU does when it comes to immigration from outside the EU. I await the racist card but this is in no way a racist point. The "freedom of movement" of the EU favours movement for relatively white and relatively rich (in world terms) citizens of certain European nations over  citizens of a largely black or brown or yellow world. Canada has historically had a  policy of welcoming  immigrants based largely or purely on the basis of what they contribute to  Canada. A policy that is pretty much colour  or race blind. and aims at a "mosaic nation" rather than an American "melting pot". 

That is a model I would support. But in the EU the UK could not adopt it even if it wanted to.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Francis Albert

[Mikey1874]

10 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

There's an element of truth in amongst all that. 

 

The rise of the cult. The populist policies and 'enigmatic' character of a Farage or Johnson type would undoubtedly appeal to a lot of people, and it obviously did. The trouble is once you scratch the surface there's an absence of substance and truth.

 

For me what it did was give a voice and a tacit acceptance of views that were always there, which the Brexit campaign, and ultimately what followed, played on beautifully. Call it racism, call it xenophobia , call it whatever but it became OK, in fact it became a mark of your Britishness to call out Johnny Foreigner for ruining our country, holding it back from the glory that awaits it in Empire 2.0

 

And now here we are. Here we are. 

 

I think it's about change. People found immigrants annoying and it changed their sense of their community. As opposed to actual effects like housing or waiting longer for a doctors appointment which was more about austerity cuts. 

[Cade]

Data suggests that people who live in areas of high immigration are actually more accepting, as they see the benefits that the influx has had and that it's nothing to be concerned about.

The new businesses that open, the enlarged congregations in churches, the more people attending community centres so the council doesn't hut them down, more staff in the medical services.....

(plus, the governments own figures will tell you that immigrants put in more than they take out, no matter if they're only seasonal workers or live here for 50 years)

 

People that live in areas of low immigration tend to be more strongly anti-immigrant. They fear what they don't understand and have no intention of changing their minds on the matter.

They'd rather form a false picture of immigrants from the pages of whatever erse wipe newspaper they read.
 

 

[Francis Albert]

8 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Removing the right to protest. Removing the ECHR. Sending 'illegals' to a third country. What are those policies if not fascist in their purpose. 

 

People accepting that direction of travel are part of the problem. The decline in the discourse comes from people saying 'doesn't affect me' so it's fine to remove rights and to 'resettle' people. 

 

Scots see it. Scots also see it for what it is. There was no loss of 'British' independence from the EU to reclaim. What did the EU take away from the UK that the UK had to get back in order to function as a democracy? One thing will do.

 

English Nationalism/Exceptionalism is a very different beast from Scottish Independence.

 America and Australia are fascist in their purpose and indeed practice if sending illegal immigrants outside their intended point of landing is the definition.

But my point was really that fascist is an unhelpful word to toss around because if you look up dictionary definitions they are all over the place. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco qualify in most. But Stalin, Mao an the current Chinese regime do so on many.  As do some Arab states and quite a few others.

[The Mighty Thor]

52 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The glaringly obvious answer is the right  of the UK and its democratically elected Parliament to decide who gets to stay in the UK. Almost if not all nations control immigration. Even the blessed EU does when it comes to immigration from outside the EU. I await the racist card but this is in no way a racist point. The "freedom of movement" of the EU favours movement for relatively white and relatively rich (in world terms) citizens of certain European nations over  citizens of a largely black or brown or yellow world. Canada has historically had a  policy of welcoming  immigrants based largely or purely on the basis of what they contribute to  Canada. A policy that is pretty much colour  or race blind. and aims at a "mosaic nation" rather than an American "melting pot". 

That is a model I would support. But in the EU the UK could not adopt it even if it wanted to.

The UK parliament never lost its right to decide who gets to stay in the UK whilst a member of the EU. 

That's a bit of a Farage-ism. 

 

Incidentally Immigration is at record levels as is 'illegal immigration'.

 

Taking back control doesn't seem to be going too well. 

 

So again, what did the EU take away from Westminster that wd needed to impose sanctions on ourselves to get back?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

40 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

 America and Australia are fascist in their purpose and indeed practice if sending illegal immigrants outside their intended point of landing is the definition.

But my point was really that fascist is an unhelpful word to toss around because if you look up dictionary definitions they are all over the place. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco qualify in most. But Stalin, Mao an the current Chinese regime do so on many.  As do some Arab states and quite a few others.

The removal of rights from the population through the Police and Crime bill and the proposed scrapping of the  ECHR are fascist moves in their purpose. Its as simple as that. 

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The UK parliament never lost its right to decide who gets to stay in the UK whilst a member of the EU. 

That's a bit of a Farage-ism. 

 

Incidentally Immigration is at record levels as is 'illegal immigration'.

 

Taking back control doesn't seem to be going too well. 

 

So again, what did the EU take away from Westminster that wd needed to impose sanctions on ourselves to get back?

 

So freedom of movement had no impact on the UK's immigration policy? 

And what sanctions are you talking about.

I am all for immigration which has been a huge boon for the UK. But to deny that membership of the EU constrained the UK's immigration policy? 

[Francis Albert]

17 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The removal of rights from the population through the Police and Crime bill and the proposed scrapping of the  ECHR are fascist moves in their purpose. Its as simple as that. 

I am sure in your definition of "fascist moves in  their purpose" it is as simple as that.

[Riccarton3]

Tugenhat favoured because he isn't tainted by the scandals, says his backers cheerily. What a bonus.

[Weakened Offender]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Incidentally Immigration is at record levels as is 'illegal immigration'.

 

 

Good to hear. ❤️

 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

So freedom of movement had no impact on the UK's immigration policy? 

And what sanctions are you talking about.

I am all for immigration which has been a huge boon for the UK. But to deny that membership of the EU constrained the UK's immigration policy? 

Freedom of movement was an agreement in kind with the other 27 member states of the EU. It wasnt an enforced rule by the EU that we must take back control of, we were signatories to it.

It also filled the jobs that British people didn't want to do. 

Since the Tories took it away the economy has nose dived. Covid hid its immediate impacts but now its there for all to see, well most of us anyway. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I am sure in your definition of "fascist moves in  their purpose" it is as simple as that.

So what would you call the removal of many of your basic rights under the Police and Crime bill and the utter desperation to rip up the ECHR, just because they got prevented from resettling asylum seekers in a despotic African shitehole. 

 

You're at it. 

[Smoked-Glass]

Is this Lee Johnston?

[Riccarton3]

8 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Freedom of movement was an agreement in kind with the other 27 member states of the EU. It wasnt an enforced rule by the EU that we must take back control of, we were signatories to it.

It also filled the jobs that British people didn't want to do. 

Since the Tories took it away the economy has nose dived. Covid hid its immediate impacts but now its there for all to see, well most of us anyway. 

Folk will take these jobs once they are better paid in a high wage economy. Instead of it being supply driven 😀

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Freedom of movement was an agreement in kind with the other 27 member states of the EU. It wasnt an enforced rule by the EU that we must take back control of, we were signatories to it.

It also filled the jobs that British people didn't want to do. 

Since the Tories took it away the economy has nose dived. Covid hid its immediate impacts but now its there for all to see, well most of us anyway. 

 

Also worth adding that it was freedom of movement for EU workers, and that if those workers hadn't actually started working within 3 months, Britain had every right to remove them.

[jack D and coke]

Look at this fresh hell….choose one…🤮

Scotland what is the matter with you…

[Watt-Zeefuik]

16 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I'd argue that questioning immigration policy anywhere doesn't make you a racist. Equally, I would also argue it is on politicians to make a positive case for migration. I migrated to Oz because of my wife's skillset being in demand, not because I just could. So when the single market allowed freedom of movement and people sought a better life in the UK, the population there found that confrontational. To then be told when they questioned why that you were "racist" to even ask the question is enough to get the hackles of anyone up. Of course, the same migrants were effectively doing the jobs that no one else wanted to do but no one was saying that.

 

On the one hand, yes, there's a scale mismatch issue when the EU has effective uniform migration but not uniform taxation or benefits. Without some sort of policies to buffer that tension, it's going to be a niggly problem to solve.

 

On the other hand, a lot of the pro-Brexit campaigning, particularly from UKIP, was pretty overtly racist. I don't think naming that explicitly should be somehow out of bounds.

 

13 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Removing the right to protest. Removing the ECHR. Sending 'illegals' to a third country. What are those policies if not fascist in their purpose. 

 

People accepting that direction of travel are part of the problem. The decline in the discourse comes from people saying 'doesn't affect me' so it's fine to remove rights and to 'resettle' people. 

 

Scots see it. Scots also see it for what it is. There was no loss of 'British' independence from the EU to reclaim. What did the EU take away from the UK that the UK had to get back in order to function as a democracy? One thing will do.

 

English Nationalism/Exceptionalism is a very different beast from Scottish Independence.

 

From a distance, the difference seems to be that most contemporary Scottish nationalism is about attempting to piece together a coherent post-colonial, post-imperial identity. Contemporary English nationalism seems to be about colonial and imperial restorationism.

[Space Mackerel]

Quite funny watching Luke Graham on The Nine tonight. 
 

He was parachuted in from England and managed 2 years as a MP in Perthshire before getting jottered. 
 

TWO YEARS. 😁😁

[jack D and coke]

Listen to this psychopath then realise she claimed £160k in expenses last year…

😐

[Footballfirst]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The glaringly obvious answer is the right  of the UK and its democratically elected Parliament to decide who gets to stay in the UK. Almost if not all nations control immigration. Even the blessed EU does when it comes to immigration from outside the EU. I await the racist card but this is in no way a racist point. The "freedom of movement" of the EU favours movement for relatively white and relatively rich (in world terms) citizens of certain European nations over  citizens of a largely black or brown or yellow world. Canada has historically had a  policy of welcoming  immigrants based largely or purely on the basis of what they contribute to  Canada. A policy that is pretty much colour  or race blind. and aims at a "mosaic nation" rather than an American "melting pot". 

That is a model I would support. But in the EU the UK could not adopt it even if it wanted to.

You may find this article illuminating re your post, specifically about Canada.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50061529

 

This graph, shows that the UK (and Canada) trail well behind a number of EU countries when it comes to accepting immigrants.

 

[manaliveits105]

Ireland deary me 

[The Mighty Thor]

The Nazi sets it's stall out nice and clearly for the card carrying auld racists in the shires

 

Vote for the white girl or you get the brown guy. 

 

 

[Francis Albert]

11 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

So what would you call the removal of many of your basic rights under the Police and Crime bill and the utter desperation to rip up the ECHR, just because they got prevented from resettling asylum seekers in a despotic African shitehole. 

 

You're at it. 

A future  UK parliament can amend or abolish the Police and Crime Act. It could not remove freedom of movement while we were in the EU. I was not a leaver but to suggest that pooled sovereignty does not diminish individual sovereignty is nonsense.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The Nazi sets it's stall out nice and clearly for the card carrying auld racists in the shires

 

Vote for the white girl or you get the brown guy. 

 

 

The Mail's objection and that of Truss to Rishi is that in their view he was a high spending and high tax Chancellor. 

[Taffin]

14 hours ago, Cade said:

Data suggests that people who live in areas of high immigration are actually more accepting, as they see the benefits that the influx has had and that it's nothing to be concerned about.

The new businesses that open, the enlarged congregations in churches, the more people attending community centres so the council doesn't hut them down, more staff in the medical services.....

(plus, the governments own figures will tell you that immigrants put in more than they take out, no matter if they're only seasonal workers or live here for 50 years)

 

People that live in areas of low immigration tend to be more strongly anti-immigrant. They fear what they don't understand and have no intention of changing their minds on the matter.

They'd rather form a false picture of immigrants from the pages of whatever erse wipe newspaper they read.
 

 

 

It's sad that people don't like it. Different cultures bring so much to an area.

 

I've never lived in a hugely diverse area but have been lucky enough to travel a lot and I always look to visit places domestically that exist as a result of immigration...quite simply as I tend to prefer the people, the product and the atmosphere of the place.

 

There's a great Chinese community in Newington these days which I wish had been there when I lived there. I visit a Chinese there when I'm home with my mum as we love the place. The owner doesn't speak much English yet somehow the connection is much stronger than a faked interaction with someone in Gregg's for example. I love eating at the Mosque kitchen, I love Chinatown in London. I love hearing about the owner of my local shop's background and how he came to the UK. 

 

It's so sad that people can't recognise that and enjoy it.

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Taffin

[Sooks]

On 10/07/2022 at 12:51, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

I’ve thought a lot about why so many people lean to the right - why so many people vote for a party like the Conservatives who, even as far back as the last election, were clearly a bunch of spivs and shithouses.

 

I think the answer it that socialism and a lot of left wing ideas require generosity on the part of individuals. If you’re comfortable or well off, you have to be willing to see money diverted away from you to people or things that need it more. Sad to say, society is very selfish. For all the talk about the cost of living crisis, there are millions of people in the UK living without hardship, with enough money in their pockets. A lot of them aren’t interested in the greater good, or not if it comes at a cost to them. The Tories are more likely to make rich people richer, and even fairly well off people even more well off. So if you’re looking out for yourself, you’re more likely to vote for them. It’s v depressing

 

Your second paragraph has just described the very essence of conservatism and i am amazed that many people do not realise this

[Sooks]

9 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Listen to this psychopath then realise she claimed £160k in expenses last year…

😐

 

May be if there were more jobs that were not zero or limited hours then people would be happy to ditch those benefits and take a job that could offer them a good secure career path with the safety net of sick pay a pension and decent holiday pay

[The Real Maroonblood]

14 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The Mail's objection and that of Truss to Rishi is that in their view he was a high spending and high tax Chancellor. 

Of course it is.

[Francis Albert]

9 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

You may find this article illuminating re your post, specifically about Canada.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50061529

 

This graph, shows that the UK (and Canada) trail well behind a number of EU countries when it comes to accepting immigrants.

 

Interesting article. But the graph you picked out does not show what you claim.  It shows increase in immigration not the scale of immigration. Canada in the period had the fourth highest rate of immmigration of all western countries, and was close to the top three.

The party of the anti immigration candidate who triggered the fact correction article has one seat in parliament and is apparently struggling to hold onto it.

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

28 minutes ago, Taffin said:

 

It's sad that people don't like it. Different cultures bring so much to an area.

 

I've never lived in a hugely diverse area but have been lucky enough to travel a lot and I always look to visit places domestically that exist as a result of immigration...quite simply as I tend to prefer the people, the product and the atmosphere of the place.

 

There's a great Chinese community in Newington these days which I wish had been there when I lived there. I visit a Chinese there when I'm home with my mum as we love the place. The owner doesn't speak much English yet somehow the connection is much stronger than a faked interaction with someone in Gregg's for example. I love eating at the Mosque kitchen, I love Chinatown in London. I love hearing about the owner of my local shop's background and how he came to the UK. 

 

It's so sad that people can't recognise that and enjoy it.

 

 

 

Agreed. I have lived in London for nearly 50 years and diversity is one of the things I love about it. It rivals or even surpasses New York these days.

I love Scotland and Edinburgh in particular but their relative  lack of diversity always strikes me when I visit. Still mono-cultural by comparison.

[The Mighty Thor]

45 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The Mail's objection and that of Truss to Rishi is that in their view he was a high spending and high tax Chancellor. 

Aye that's it. 

[Francis Albert]

11 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Look at this fresh hell….choose one…🤮

Scotland what is the matter with you…

Impressively diverse group however

[The Mighty Thor]

55 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A future  UK parliament can amend or abolish the Police and Crime Act. It could not remove freedom of movement while we were in the EU. I was not a leaver but to suggest that pooled sovereignty does not diminish individual sovereignty is nonsense.

The United Kingdom never ever lost it's sovereignty under Freedom of Movement. Not for one minute.

 

It was a signatory to an agreement that allowed unfettered two way access to the other 27 member states. 

 

To try to paint that as a loss of sovereignty is risible. 

 

It's nonsense and truth bending like this that caused Brexit. 

 

What's worth noting is that since 'taking back control' the party in power has er lost control of it's borders.