Should Scotland be an independent country?

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The drug deaths are down to Sturgeon and her inept government as usual trying to squirm out of it and blame someone else - LIARS and Chancers 

Yep “ it wisne me “ should be on their election leaflets 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

If the SG were that passionate  about those changes they would have went ahead with them irrespective of Westminster ! They are doing that with Indy 

No they aren’t James. I’m not sure you understand what the SG’s position is if you say that. It is all attempted to be lawful. 
The drug deaths and policy need looked at nobody us denying that. 
Scotland can’t borrow money like the uk can do you understand that? If we’re to start throwing money at a problem it must come from somewhere else in that budget. Now forgive me for saying I can think of many more deserving or pressing concerns that don’t need their budget cut as much as this needs tackled. 
NS isn’t cooking up for these people. 
 

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

No they aren’t James. I’m not sure you understand what the SG’s position is if you say that. It is all attempted to be lawful. 
The drug deaths and policy need looked at nobody us denying that. 
Scotland can’t borrow money like the uk can do you understand that? If we’re to start throwing money at a problem it must come from somewhere else in that budget. Now forgive me for saying I can think of many more deserving or pressing concerns that don’t need their budget cut as much as this needs tackled. 
NS isn’t cooking up for these people. 
 

Maybe the extra tax we pay compared to England could be used ? Or is that getting spent on something else ? 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Boris' record and the support he got from England's electorate and MPs is very relevant, it's exactly the type of shenanigans we need to get away from.

 

He is going to get support from England's electorate because that is where his MPs are.

 

He is an awful PM but using him specifically as a reason to break up the UK is as wrong as using Sturgeon for the opposite reason.

 

 

[jack D and coke]

48 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

hardly a shock given he was obviously hand picked to rubber stamp the party line...

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19815384.government-drug-death-experts-quit-row-snp-minister/

Two absolutely nothing stories really. I just find myself shrugging my shoulders reading stuff like that. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

He is going to get support from England's electorate because that is where his MPs are.

 

He is an awful PM but using him specifically as a reason to break up the UK is as wrong as using Sturgeon for the opposite reason.

 

I wasn't, but the people that get into power at Westminster are very much part of the issue.

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Maybe the extra tax we pay compared to England could be used ? Or is that getting spent on something else ? 

Most people don’t pay any extra and if you compare the stuff you save like generally cheaper council tax, free prescriptions if you need them, better services, no water meters etc you’re in front really I think. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by jack D and coke

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Most people don’t pay any extra and if you compare the stuff you save like generally

cheaper council tax, free prescriptions if you need them, better services, no water meters etc you’re in front really I think. 

I love your optimism mate but I’m not in front. 😂
 

You’d think this extra money would be well spent, doesn’t appear so. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Dazo

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

I love your optimism mate but I’m not in front. 😂
 

You’d think this extra money would be well spent, doesn’t appear so. 

Im generally optimistic 😉

I don’t think it raises much tbh but it was an attempt at raising something.

They’re stuck in this use the tax raising powers you have to pay for stuff to then faced with how dare you raise taxes to pay for stuff. 
 

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

hardly a shock given he was obviously hand picked to rubber stamp the party line...

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19815384.government-drug-death-experts-quit-row-snp-minister/

 

A strange and self contradictory article in which the the originators say it "will take years" while "understanding the need for urgency". They have clearly been asked for some quick fixes to reduce the death rate and then obscenely suggest it's a box ticking exercise when we are talking about saving people's lives. 

 

Much easier to spin it as political interference rather than say they could not or would not act quickly where possible. 

 

 

[Ray Gin]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

If the SG were that passionate  about those changes they would have went ahead with them irrespective of Westminster ! They are doing that with Indy 

 

100% we should bump Westminster and govern ourselves independently. 

 

Glad you're back on board.

[JudyJudyJudy]

32 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

100% we should bump Westminster and govern ourselves independently. 

 

Glad you're back on board.

😁

[Unknown user]

13 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Not everything in the constitutional debate is a zero sum game, mate.

 

The UK was never designed to have vetoes or suchlike for the constituent nations whose voting behaviour didn't match that of a majority.

 

There are plenty of devolved decisions that affect our lives as people living in Scotland just as much as there are decisions being made in London.

 

I honestly don't think this whole shitshow would even be getting discussed if a Labour government in WM were being propped up by 30-40 or so SLab MPs. 

 

All you're doing is describing how shit the situation is for Scotland.

 

It's insanity for a small country to be in a union with another, much larger country.

[periodictabledancer]

34 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Not everything in the constitutional debate is a zero sum game, mate.

 

The UK was never designed to have vetoes or suchlike for the constituent nations whose voting behaviour didn't match that of a majority.

 

There are plenty of devolved decisions that affect our lives as people living in Scotland just as much as there are decisions being made in London.

 

I honestly don't think this whole shitshow would even be getting discussed if a Labour government in WM were being propped up by 30-40 or so SLab MPs. 

Obviously, given "30 or 40 SLab MPs" would pretty much blow any mandate out of the water. 

 

[Japan Jambo]

2 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

 

A strange and self contradictory article in which the the originators say it "will take years" while "understanding the need for urgency". They have clearly been asked for some quick fixes to reduce the death rate and then obscenely suggest it's a box ticking exercise when we are talking about saving people's lives. 

 

Much easier to spin it as political interference rather than say they could not or would not act quickly where possible. 

 

 

 

I've no doubt the truth will be there somewhere in the middle. I too got the impression they were arse covering and padding out the job, but I also got a sense that they were being leaned on to come out in favour of a particular approach. The narrative that I keep hearing is that it's all WM's fault for not allowing safe drug rooms; this report will no doubt be trotted out as a means to pick a fight with WM whom I'm sure wont be inclined to play ball particularly if the report carries insufficient substance.

 

As you correctly identify the issue should be about saving people's lives, alas too much politics being played.

[Japan Jambo]

23 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

All you're doing is describing how shit the situation is for Scotland.

 

It's insanity for a small country to be in a union with another, much larger country.

 

Is it therefore insanity to be part of a European union too?

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

Is it therefore insanity to be part of a European union too?

 

That's for another thread, but they're very different beasts of course.

[i wish jj was my dad]

6 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

What a country to be living in. 

 

Scotland Drugs Death: Cultural change needed to tackle drug deaths crisis in Scotland, says taskforce | Edinburgh News (scotsman.com)

Not excusing the current administration but we had a debate a week or two ago and agreed where the legacy of our current drug crisis came from didn't we? Will be somewhere on this thread probably

[JudyJudyJudy]

19 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Not excusing the current administration but we had a debate a week or two ago and agreed where the legacy of our current drug crisis came from didn't we? Will be somewhere on this thread probably

SNP have been in Govt for 15 years.  Thats more than enough time to affect change or feck things up. 

[Dazo]

3 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

SNP have been in Govt for 15 years.  Thats more than enough time to affect change or feck things up. 

Thats JJ’s mantra, he says he isn’t excusing the snp government before going on to excuse the snp government. 😂

[Unknown user]

Vote Yes to get rid of the SNP

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Vote Yes to get rid of the SNP

 

🤣 oh my sides

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Vote Yes to get rid of the SNP

aye so i will....whos gonna fill an Indy Scottish parliament and who is frigging desperate to be Scotland's First indy PM?   Yep you know who. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

7 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Thats JJ’s mantra, he says he isn’t excusing the snp government before going on to excuse the snp government. 😂

[Dazo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Vote Yes to get rid of the SNP

Even you don’t believe that shite. 😂

[JudyJudyJudy]

Damning article.

 

 

Voices of Scotland: Fourteen years of SNP failure | Morning Star (morningstaronline.co.uk)

[i wish jj was my dad]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

SNP have been in Govt for 15 years.  Thats more than enough time to affect change or feck things up. 

No doubt they have had time to get on top of it but the problem is complex and a legacy of policies which started kicking the arse out out of communities more than 40 years ago. And not just scottish communities either. To get on top of it we need to offer hope and opportunities. Create a stronger manufacturing base that requires skilled workers who manufacture products we can sell. Not easy and it may take another generation but it's a far more sustainable way to operate than relying on retail or services for employment which pays minimum wage.  

[i wish jj was my dad]

20 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Thats JJ’s mantra, he says he isn’t excusing the snp government before going on to excuse the snp government. 😂

I'm excusing nobody.   It's a disgrace and we need to do something about it. I've also said in previous exchange and this one what i think needs to be done about it. But it's not a quick fix headline grabber so not a big priority for the current administration who have other priorities.

[i wish jj was my dad]

26 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Sigh. Pretty lazy and actually cheap given we hqve already been over this ground. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Sigh. Pretty lazy and actually cheap given we hqve already been over this ground. 

It’s a mixture of both really . The SG could have prioritised this issue , instead of other issues . And yes I do agree it’s a Long standing complex bunch of reasons why we have the worse drugs deaths in Europe , however there has been no dent in the situation really . I’d not park people on methadone as part of the move to get people off drugs . Counselling should be a priority 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Dazo said:

Even you don’t believe that shite. 😂

 

I'd have no reason to vote for them ever again, and that seems to be the general mood.

They're too much of a mix, their core issue brings together ideologies that would normally be in separate parties, and because of that they end up bland and actually pleasing very few IMO.

 

I'm dying to vote for someone else, but won't until independence is achieved.

[i wish jj was my dad]

20 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

It’s a mixture of both really . The SG could have prioritised this issue , instead of other issues . And yes I do agree it’s a Long standing complex bunch of reasons why we have the worse drugs deaths in Europe , however there has been no dent in the situation really . I’d not park people on methadone as part of the move to get people off drugs . Counselling should be a priority 

I think it is far more complex than methadone v counselling. The priority should be to deal with the cause rather than the effect. You might help deal with the immediate problem of what is in front of you but the cycle will just continue if we dont give hope to the sucessive generations living in the communities Thatcher destroyed. 

 

The current administration seem to think short term though because they know they wont be around to see the benefit of taking a long term view though. 

 

Is that critical enough of Krankie for you?  

 

[That thing you do]

14 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

If the SG were that passionate  about those changes they would have went ahead with them irrespective of Westminster ! They are doing that with Indy 

Thats the best youve got? If SG was passionate theyd have taken reserved matters into their own hands...

 

How do expect them to save UK gov from itself all the time.

 

Indyref is tbc as reserved or not.

 

Surely your argument is have indy? Since you think they should mitigate everything else? Lets mitigate the union too then!

[Dazo]

10 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I'd have no reason to vote for them ever again, and that seems to be the general mood.

They're too much of a mix, their core issue brings together ideologies that would normally be in separate parties, and because of that they end up bland and actually pleasing very few IMO.

 

I'm dying to vote for someone else, but won't until independence is achieved.

Well you’re in for a shock then Smithee because there is no white knights of politics waiting to sweep in to Scotland if independence is achieved. For the foreseeable we are stuck with who we have. 

[manaliveits105]

11 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Damning article.

 

 

Voices of Scotland: Fourteen years of SNP failure | Morning Star (morningstaronline.co.uk)

When the real comrades hate you - you know you are crap 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

When the real comrades hate you - you know you are crap 

I know.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

This is an interesting one. The LA appears to be arguing against the SG's plans for a referendum, but also staking a position that would seem to say the SG could hold one with all the formal legal bearing of the Brexit referendum (none) with no oversight from the UK gov't.

 

At least that's how I'm reading it? I may be misunderstanding some of the UK-specific legal terms.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-government-plans-for-indyref2-to-lead-to-independence-not-legally-relevant-on-referendum-question-argues-lord-advocate-3779063

[Unknown user]

11 hours ago, Dazo said:

Well you’re in for a shock then Smithee because there is no white knights of politics waiting to sweep in to Scotland if independence is achieved. For the foreseeable we are stuck with who we have. 

We don't need white knights to have better than what we've got now.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, Smithee said:

We don't need white knights to have better than what we've got now.

 

The hilarious part to me is that no one would benefit more from independence than Scottish Labour. It seems there's an awful lot of folk who aren't voting for Labour simply because of their stance on indyref2, and once Scotland's an independent country, a lot of the SNP's raison d'etre would go away. Their poorer policies like government consolidation are suddenly a lot harder to defend. The chances of Scottish Labour being fully in charge of the country in the near future are fairly high. But because Westminster Labour cracks the whip, they toe the line.

 

It's like the US Greens. Deep down, nothing terrifies them more than the idea that one day they may slip up and actually be in charge of something and have the power to change things for the better.

[Ainsley Harriott]

29 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

This is an interesting one. The LA appears to be arguing against the SG's plans for a referendum, but also staking a position that would seem to say the SG could hold one with all the formal legal bearing of the Brexit referendum (none) with no oversight from the UK gov't.

 

At least that's how I'm reading it? I may be misunderstanding some of the UK-specific legal terms.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-government-plans-for-indyref2-to-lead-to-independence-not-legally-relevant-on-referendum-question-argues-lord-advocate-3779063

So in other words the no side would boycott and the result would be ignored. Sounds fine to me

[Watt-Zeefuik]

40 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

So in other words the no side would boycott and the result would be ignored. Sounds fine to me

 

That what happened with Brexit?

[Ainsley Harriott]

Just now, Led Tasso said:

 

That what happened with Brexit?

Nope because the powers that could and wanted to deliver it did. Anyone with half a brain (granted not many yessers have that) can see this is just a pathetic Catalonia style stunt by the Nationalists.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Nope because the powers that could and wanted to deliver it did. Anyone with half a brain (granted not many yessers have that) can see this is just a pathetic Catalonia style stunt by the Nationalists.

 

Not my business but lying to win a non-binding referendum and then treating it as inviolable despite economic wreckage seems pretty pathetic to me, but the two big UK parties seem stuck on it. But not like anyone in the US should feel any latitude to hand out lectures on good government or respect for democracy at the moment, so I should probably sit on my hands.

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Nope because the powers that could and wanted to deliver it did. Anyone with half a brain (granted not many yessers have that) can see this is just a pathetic Catalonia style stunt by the Nationalists.

Much edge, so sharp, huge fail....

[Dazo]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

We don't need white knights to have better than what we've got now.

Just better than, is that the goal ? 

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Just better than, is that the goal ? 

I would have thought, given the last few years, that any slight improvement on the status quo would be as refreshing as a cold shower on a 35 degree summer's day!

[Dazo]

2 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

I would have thought, given the last few years, that any slight improvement on the status quo would be as refreshing as a cold shower on a 35 degree summer's day!

It’s a low bar Konrad so I’d have thought to split the country in half we’d be aiming a bit higher than utter shite. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

It’s a low bar Konrad so I’d have thought to split the country in half we’d be aiming a bit higher than utter shite. 

Well, that goes without saying, hence my confusion at your post...

[Dazo]

Just now, Konrad von Carstein said:

Well, that goes without saying, hence my confusion at your post...

Well I’m definitely confused, hopefully the fact we’ve both been out accounts for that.  😂

[Konrad von Carstein]

Just now, Dazo said:

Well I’m definitely confused, hopefully the fact we’ve both been out accounts for that.  😂