Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Malinga the Swinga]

20 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

Questions for those with a lot more knowledge on politics etc than me.

 

How many cases has there been of a country going independent and ending up worse off?

 

Also, we're often portrayed as a burden on Westminster, if we're such a burden, why are Westminster so keen to keep Scotland as part of the UK?

That's an impossible ask to quantify. You would need to run parallel existence where no independence takes place and then see what difference is.

That's why Czechoslovakia break up hopefully better example then Yugoslavia one. Slovakia initially fell behind Czech Republic but they maintain stats used didn't take account of their particular customs. Interesting that a lot of their combined people's wish break had never happened, done with no referendum and politicians decided themselves, and that being in EU has negated some changes as free movement still happens.

Yugoslavia break up different as wars caused difficulty. Russian federation break up again caused by revolution and there are implications there that hopefully we won't see. You can't look at Sudan as again war and famine played part.

In short, will life change drastically, probably not but until Scottish government publishes plans, nobody can say for sure and even after plans published, no 100% certainty can exist.

[Nookie Bear]

4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

It’s all she has got in her locker - her only policy 

 

it's a mighty effective one tbf

[jack D and coke]

Just now, hmfc_liam06 said:

Questions for those with a lot more knowledge on politics etc than me.

 

How many cases has there been of a country going independent and ending up worse off?

 

Also, we're often portrayed as a burden on Westminster, if we're such a burden, why are Westminster so keen to keep Scotland as part of the UK?

There hasn’t been any. Bringing govt closer tends to work better.
The second part you’ve pretty much answered your own question bud imo. A govt that won’t give bairns a school meal but want to subsidise Scotland forever? the No side are saying that Scotland should just accept we can’t make anything better than it is now and just accept these fiscal transfers…and for ever? That’s pretty much what you’re being sold. That we can’t make it any better than what it is atm? I just don’t believe that. I cant get my head around the fact we’d get the chance to get rid of the Thatchers and Tony Blairs and Boris Johnson’s, Rees Mogg’s etc for good and then vote No and just hand the power straight back to them because maybe they don’t like Sturgeon. Ridiculous stuff.
I’m no fan of this SNP either btw but it would much easier to get them out than us ever making any ripples at WM. Every single person in Scotland could vote Labour or Lib Dem or whatever and still get Boris Johnson again. 
If not for the fear factors and it being hammered into you all the time that Scotland couldn’t do it then the the opinion polls would be overwhelmingly for yes imo.
 

[Don Dan]

[jack D and coke]

8 minutes ago, Imaman said:

A indyref that starts pretty much neck and neck is going to be very interesting. 
 

[frankblack]

17 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

A indyref that starts pretty much neck and neck is going to be very interesting. 
 

 

It will when people realise the utter shitshow independence will create.  The SNP plans to sneak a vote in without coming clean.

 

Turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It will when people realise the utter shitshow independence will create.  The SNP plans to sneak a vote in without coming clean.

 

Turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

Is there a look into the future somewhere?
The union has only fear to sell.
 

[manaliveits105]

45 minutes ago, Imaman said:

The will of the Scottish people 

[frankblack]

14 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Is there a look into the future somewhere?
The union has only fear to sell.
 

 

Given we are about to go into a recession while there is a war in Europe I'd say going independent while Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU, have a currency, etc and would have to take its share of the UK national debt I'd say things would be far worse.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Watch Raab's response to the SNP MP at QT yesterday, inadvertently revealing the real reason as to why they are vehemently opposed to independence!

 

Do tell !!!

[Malinga the Swinga]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Given we are about to go into a recession while there is a war in Europe I'd say going independent while Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU, have a currency, etc and would have to take its share of the UK national debt I'd say things would be far worse.

Subjective though Frank. Those who support independence will have different opinion from you (and me).

To make it worse, it's impossible to verify.

 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Subjective though Frank. Those who support independence will have different opinion from you (and me).

To make it worse, it's impossible to verify.

 

Exactly this👍🏼
 

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Subjective though Frank. Those who support independence will have different opinion from you (and me).

To make it worse, it's impossible to verify.

 

 

Which is exactly why I have a problem with people pointing at things and going "see? This is what independent Scotland looks like" when it's happening now, within the union.

 

It's also why I challenge talk of things like customs checks being inevitable - none of us can tell the future, none of us know what agreements will be in place.

[Mysterion]

20 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Given we are about to go into a recession while there is a war in Europe I'd say going independent while Scotland wouldn't be a member of the EU, have a currency, etc and would have to take its share of the UK national debt I'd say things would be far worse.

Given the new Indie Scotland was always going to find it tough we are looking at the option of “have it tough but it will improve if Indie” or “have it tough but continue to be part of a UK that’s run by a bunch of incompetents who couldn’t care less about Scotland unless it’s getting our taxes and oil revenue”

 

You can see why the gamble is less of a gamble now compared to 2014.

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Who are you proposing we restrict from the franchise then?

I'm not proposing anyone, was simply advising you that you were incorrect.

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

16 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Do tell !!!

It's all over social media, you have a look for yourself !!!

[hughesie27]

3 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Only Scottish born should have a vote? That runs contrary to the First Minister's policy of extending the franchise to more people.

Of all the things she said that's what you pick up on 🤣

[hughesie27]

22 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

It's all over social media, you have a look for yourself !!!

For something that's all over social media I've just spent 10 minutes on Twitter scrolling through the search "Raab SNP" and watch 3 or 4 videos of him and Blackford from yesterday and nothing stood out...

[hmfc_liam06]

Here it is folks.

 

https://twitter.com/PGibsonSNP/status/1542130638417022976?s=20&t=iTZWEJp0IWSQJ2gE6uIwbQ

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

For something that's all over social media I've just spent 10 minutes on Twitter scrolling through the search "Raab SNP" and watch 3 or 4 videos of him and Blackford from yesterday and nothing stood out...

 

Basically, Scotland has lots of stuff and we want it.

[hughesie27]

3 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

Here it is folks.

 

https://twitter.com/PGibsonSNP/status/1542130638417022976?s=20&t=iTZWEJp0IWSQJ2gE6uIwbQ

Nice!

[Konrad von Carstein]

7 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

For something that's all over social media I've just spent 10 minutes on Twitter scrolling through the search "Raab SNP" and watch 3 or 4 videos of him and Blackford from yesterday and nothing stood out...

He basically reeled off all the natural resources that Scotland has and ended with "and that's why we are stronger together" .

 

My take on that was that they are against an indie referendum because if successful it will affect the rUK negatively.

 

Now many will disagree with my take, and that's fine, but I'll not be bickering about on here.

 

[dobmisterdobster]

16 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Of all the things she said that's what you pick up on 🤣

 

Other than that she winges about Brexit 😴😴

 

She also incorrectly states that Scotland has a democratic defect in Westminster which is false.

 

Scotland and Wales both have more constituencies per head of population. Something that will be corrected with boundary reforms next year.

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Basically, Scotland has lots of stuff and we want it.

Condensed my word salad response to @hughesie27 nicely.

 

 

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

Other than that she winges about Brexit 😴😴

 

She also incorrectly states that Scotland has a democratic defect in Westminster which is false.

 

Scotland and Wales both have more constituencies per head of population. Something that will be corrected with boundary reforms next year.

If there is no democratic deficit in this wonderful "union of equals" why do we (Scotland) on average get the government that England votes for?

 

Of course there a democratic deficit and it's about to be made worse with the forthcoming gerrymandering.

[hughesie27]

11 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

If there is no democratic deficit in this wonderful "union of equals" why do we (Scotland) on average get the government that England votes for?

 

Of course there a democratic deficit and it's about to be made worse with the forthcoming gerrymandering.

When you say on average you of course mean every single GE there has been since the war.

Take away every Scottish seat elected and you'd still end up with the same Government in control.

[Japan Jambo]

44 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

It's all over social media, you have a look for yourself !!!

 

thanks for your help lol. Needle in a haystack stuff.

 

14 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

Here it is folks.

 

https://twitter.com/PGibsonSNP/status/1542130638417022976?s=20&t=iTZWEJp0IWSQJ2gE6uIwbQ

 

not sure how you would expect him to respond differently tbh, that's all pretty much self evidently true. Scotland is blessed with a lot of (excess) natural resources and England needs them, that's how trade is done.

 

Is the suggestion that they have been stolen or that Scotland is being exploited?

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

When you say on average you of course mean every single GE there has been since the war.

Take away every Scottish seat elected and you'd still end up with the same Government in control.

👍

[dobmisterdobster]

22 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

If there is no democratic deficit in this wonderful "union of equals" why do we (Scotland) on average get the government that England votes for?

 

Of course there a democratic deficit and it's about to be made worse with the forthcoming gerrymandering.

 

9 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

When you say on average you of course mean every single GE there has been since the war.

Take away every Scottish seat elected and you'd still end up with the same Government in control.

 

England has more people than Scotland. Therefore they will have more influence. It wouldn't be democratic for Scotland to have a disproportionate influence just because of some ancient borders.

[ri Alban]

10 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

thanks for your help lol. Needle in a haystack stuff.

 

 

not sure how you would expect him to respond differently tbh, that's all pretty much self evidently true. Scotland is blessed with a lot of (excess) natural resources and England needs them, that's how trade is done.

 

Is the suggestion that they have been stolen or that Scotland is being exploited?

What do you think? 

[Japan Jambo]

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

What do you think? 

 

I asked first 🙂 

[hughesie27]

6 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

 

England has more people than Scotland. Therefore they will have more influence. It wouldn't be democratic for Scotland to have a disproportionate influence just because of some ancient borders.

Agree 100% but when the social/political landscape of the 2 demographics is so stark it begs the question of why bother sticking together. You even have Scottish Tories speaking out against WM Gov these days. Devolution helps that with areas like bedroom tax etc being countered by SNP policy but that only goes so far. Scotland and England are just too different politically.

[ri Alban]

Scotland produces more energy than it needs, enough oil and gas to make it's people comfortable, but pays more for the pleasure than the UK does. 

 

Oh and Scotland buys 15b+ more for exports from rUK than they do for Scottish exports to rUk. Yet it's 12 times bigger. I understand what's what, but that's some difference. We should not need to import that much more for 5 m people. Double dipping our pockets and outright thief and selling our own shit back to us for a higher premium. 

 

 

And oil, wind, tide and water will run out again, next October. No doubt.

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

I asked first 🙂 

 

 

 

 

[ri Alban]

14 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

 

 

England has more people than Scotland. Therefore they will have more influence. It wouldn't be democratic for Scotland to have a disproportionate influence just because of some ancient borders.

So how do elect our own government and most importantly, how do get rid of them. Personally I'd like to see the SNP gone, but it ain't happening til independence.

[pablo]

38 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

If there is no democratic deficit in this wonderful "union of equals" why do we (Scotland) on average get the government that England votes for?

 

Of course there a democratic deficit and it's about to be made worse with the forthcoming gerrymandering.

 

Because most of population of the UK live in England and a general election is to elect a UK Westminster government?

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

Scotland produces more energy than it needs, enough oil and gas to make it's people comfortable, but pays more for the pleasure than the UK does. 

 

Oh and Scotland buys 15b+ more for exports from rUK than they do for Scottish exports to rUk. Yet it's 12 times bigger. I understand what's what, but that's some difference. We should not need to import that much more for 5 m people. Double dipping our pockets and outright thief and selling our own shit back to us for a higher premium. 

 

 

And oil, wind, tide and water will run out again, next October. No doubt.

 

Please explain how Scotland pays more energy/oil/gas than England - I'd imagine it was broadly similar, I'm open to you explaining where I'm misunderstanding?

 

No idea what your second point is.

 

Last statement is preposterous, Scotland is leading the way on renewables. Long may that continue.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Which is exactly why I have a problem with people pointing at things and going "see? This is what independent Scotland looks like" when it's happening now, within the union.

 

It's also why I challenge talk of things like customs checks being inevitable - none of us can tell the future, none of us know what agreements will be in place.

Quite.

We had the current Crime Minister stand up in Belfast saying 'over his dead body' there would be a border in the Irish sea. 

 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Given the new Indie Scotland was always going to find it tough we are looking at the option of “have it tough but it will improve if Indie” or “have it tough but continue to be part of a UK that’s run by a bunch of incompetents who couldn’t care less about Scotland unless it’s getting our taxes and oil revenue”

 

You can see why the gamble is less of a gamble now compared to 2014.

 

Please clarify how leaving the UK in the middle of a recession is less of a gamble than remaining part of it?

 

I'd think jumping out with no currency, no membership of the EU (and no guarantee of meeting criteria to join), plus Scotland taking their share of the national debt, and putting many many jobs at risk is one hell of a gamble.

[The Mighty Thor]

13 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Please clarify how leaving the UK in the middle of a recession is less of a gamble than remaining part of it?

 

I'd think jumping out with no currency, no membership of the EU (and no guarantee of meeting criteria to join), plus Scotland taking their share of the national debt, and putting many many jobs at risk is one hell of a gamble.

Frank it's all very 2014. 

 

Who has ensured the recession will be longer and deeper than every other major economy? Nicola Sturgeon?

 

Membership of the EU. I remember being told the only way to retain that membership was to vote No. That's a bit awkward isn't it?

 

Taking our share of the 'national debt'? Is that the one that Spaffer is increasing at a rate quicker than at any time since WWII?

 

I'd suggest getting out ASAP is probably smart given the direction of travel with the current clown show in Westminster. 

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Please clarify how leaving the UK in the middle of a recession is less of a gamble than remaining part of it?

 

I'd think jumping out with no currency, no membership of the EU (and no guarantee of meeting criteria to join), plus Scotland taking their share of the national debt, and putting many many jobs at risk is one hell of a gamble.

So do we wait until we’re making loads again? Like when we had billions from oil but they still told us it was running oot? 
Ok U.K. we’re no leaving the now cos we’re a bit skint but see when that’s done and we’re making loads off the renewables we’re aff? 
Really? 

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Taking our share of the 'national debt'? Is that the one that Spaffer is increasing at a rate quicker than at any time since WWII?

See this debt they talk of well since the oil came ashore and bear in mind they didn’t produce accounts for Scotland for decades as they used to show big surpluses with millions going for “imperial costs”
They brought them back with GERS but that was explicitly to quell calls for Indy. 
Anyway I digress but since the oil came ashore Scotland is pretty much quits and the ruk has managed to run up around £2trillion…
We’ve to accept a huge chunk tho cos it’s no fair. Fair on who exactly? 

[jack D and coke]

This was printed before last indyref too. 

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Frank it's all very 2014. 

 

Who has ensured the recession will be longer and deeper than every other major economy? Nicola Sturgeon?

 

Membership of the EU. I remember being told the only way to retain that membership was to vote No. That's a bit awkward isn't it?

 

Taking our share of the 'national debt'? Is that the one that Spaffer is increasing at a rate quicker than at any time since WWII?

 

I'd suggest getting out ASAP is probably smart given the direction of travel with the current clown show in Westminster. 

 

So you think jumping off into the abyss with no plan is going to make things better?  Good luck.

 

Boris will be gone soon with his party.

 

Given the shitshow up here with trains and ferries let alone just about every other area of devolved government being worse than when the nats took over, I fail to see any evidence that lot are competent to have full fiscal control.

[frankblack]

15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

So do we wait until we’re making loads again? Like when we had billions from oil but they still told us it was running oot? 
Ok U.K. we’re no leaving the now cos we’re a bit skint but see when that’s done and we’re making loads off the renewables we’re aff? 
Really? 

 

If we were making loads from the renewables why do our bills keep going up for electric notably?

[jack D and coke]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

If we were making loads from the renewables why do our bills keep going up for electric notably?

I read a bit about that I’ll try find it..👍🏼

[jack D and coke]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If we were making loads from the renewables why do our bills keep going up for electric notably?

This isn’t from the article but it’s fairly similar to what I’d read…

 

SCOTLAND’S energy generation is almost entirely domestic, and 60% of that generation comes from green energy sources. Once installed, renewables have a fuel cost which is effectively zero. That’s why Norway, where 93% of their household heating comes from hydroelectric, has the cheapest energy bills in Europe. So what explains Scotland’s susceptibility to the surge in gas prices on international markets?

Gordon Morgan, a freelance ­researcher specialising in energy, says that the ­difference between Norway and Scotland can be found in “the design of the UK’s energy market”.

First, the wholesale price is determined not by the average price of all forms of energy generation but by the last unit of energy required to meet peak energy ­demand, which in Britain is usually gas.

Morgan says that “the failure to ­reduce demand for heating through ­insulation and establish significant renewable ­energy storage capacity” is now “costing households in high prices”.

Secondly, the UK’s electricity grid is centralised around London and the South East as it was designed for a fossil-fuel era when the closer energy was to big population centres, the cheaper it was to deliver. That design means if you want to connect a wind farm to the grid in the Highlands it will cost money, but to do the same in Devon would see the energy provider given a subsidy.

“If Scotland were a separate ­market, then given we produce enough ­renewables to meet demand here, most of the time electricity prices would be ­lower,” ­Morgan, who has co-authored a paper for the Common Weal think tank on an independent Scotland’s energy ­future, argues.

Finally, energy privatisation, which ­began with the sell-off of British Gas in 1986, has “had a major effect on ­prices over the long-term,” Morgan says. ­Despite the fact that household energy ­consumption has declined since 1996 (the furthest year figures go back to), the price of electricity had risen by a third and the price of gas by over half in real terms by 2019, well before the latest price surge.

 

 

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

It will when people realise the utter shitshow independence will create.  The SNP plans to sneak a vote in without coming clean.

 

Turkeys won't vote for Christmas.

How are they trying to sneak a vote? Is the Referendum a secret?  And if it is a why won't the turkeys vote for Christmas? 

 

Not being wide but I'm no getting your point.

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Basically, Scotland has lots of stuff and we want it.

I haven't been able to watch the video et but I wouldn't criticise Raab if that's what he says. We do have lots and lots of assets that any serious government would covet. If he said that and added we want to use these assets to help make Scotland and the rUk a prosperous society I would see that as a good thing. However, experience tells me that the current lot want everything we have to enrich their pals 

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

How are they trying to sneak a vote? Is the Referendum a secret?  And if it is a why won't the turkeys vote for Christmas? 

 

Not being wide but I'm no getting your point.

 

By blaming Westminster for everything, accepting no responsibility for their own failings, and giving no plan on how they would implement independence and get around the well publicised obstacles to prosperity.

 

All we get is talk of this independence utopia where Scotland goes off into the sunset quids in with absolutely zero detail to allow scrutiny, which the electorate is entitled to.