Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Salmond seems like one of the last good politicians. I’m not excusing or assuming either his innocence or guilt in that case against him but for his politics at least I believe he wanted Indy. He wants it. 
It’s night and day to what the snp is now. 
To think they’re arguing and bogged down and being battered about this trans bullshit is nuts. 
Sturgeon needs emptied. Pronto. 

I'm not how accurate polls are but haven't the SNP fallen a bit further behind on the last set of polls, down to the Gender debacle?

If this isn't enough for a challenge on her leadership what will be?

I agree with you summation of Salmond, a dedicated independence man.

[jack D and coke]

9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'm not how accurate polls are but haven't the SNP fallen a bit further behind on the last set of polls, down to the Gender debacle?

If this isn't enough for a challenge on her leadership what will be?

I agree with you summation of Salmond, a dedicated independence man.

I don’t think the polls have moved much in the last 8-9 years in all honesty. 
Sometimes Yes looks slightly in front then it’s No. 
But Sturgeon took over something with momentum and imo she’s drowned it. 
I think people on the union side think it’s all about an individual like Sturgeon for example and they focus on that.
I can only speak for myself and say it really isn’t.
I’m not hell bent on Scotland breaking away either.
Sturgeon won’t lead anyone to anything though, she doesn’t have it there has been zero vision from her or the SNP or it’s just vote for us again…just bolloks. 
Politically the world is a real mess.
I’m not sure what I want anymore or more importantly what I think is for the best. 
I think we had our chance in 2014 and we blew it. 
Or not depending on where you stood. 
A part of me thinks it’s over. 

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t think the polls have moved much in the last 8-9 years in all honesty. 
Sometimes Yes looks slightly in front then it’s No. 
But Sturgeon took over something with momentum and imo she’s drowned it. 
I think people on the union side think it’s all about an individual like Sturgeon for example and they focus on that.
I can only speak for myself and say it really isn’t.
I’m not hell bent on Scotland breaking away either.
Sturgeon won’t lead anyone to anything though, she doesn’t have it there has been zero vision from her or the SNP or it’s just vote for us again…just bolloks. 
Politically the world is a real mess.
I’m not sure what I want anymore or more importantly what I think is for the best. 
I think we had our chance in 2014 and we blew it. 
Or not depending on where you stood. 
A part of me thinks it’s over. 

I'm not sure if people on the union side do think it's all about an individual, but Sturgeon and the SNP are the only ticket in town that'll lead to independence, I don't think you can separate the two, people will be along the say the opposite but I disagree with them, she draws their ire as she's the obvious target.

I honestly don't know where the indie' movement will go, it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere under the current structure? Like you correctly say, the polls haven't shifted in years and the momentum seems to have stalled, if it's as obvious as it seems why hasn't she been challenged?

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'm not sure if people on the union side do think it's all about an individual, but Sturgeon and the SNP are the only ticket in town that'll lead to independence, I don't think you can separate the two, people will be along the say the opposite but I disagree with them, she draws their ire as she's the obvious target.

I honestly don't know where the indie' movement will go, it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere under the current structure? Like you correctly say, the polls haven't shifted in years and the momentum seems to have stalled, if it's as obvious as it seems why hasn't she been challenged?

I suppose it’s hard to challenge her when they keep romping elections. 
It’s coming to a head though she’s bogged them down in this trans shit. 
Unreal. 

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I suppose it’s hard to challenge her when they keep romping elections. 
It’s coming to a head though she’s bogged them down in this trans shit. 
Unreal. 

Aye, but the trans thing does seem a strange hill to pick to die on, it does seem to be backfiring for her, a step back to take two steps forward might be best for the SNP.

[jack D and coke]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Aye, but the trans thing does seem a strange hill to pick to die on, it does seem to be backfiring for her, a step back to take two steps forward might be best for the SNP.

Im utterly baffled by the trans thing, I just don’t understand it at all. 
But this is all over the world and yet the media will have you believing it’s all about what’s happening here.
 

I’m not in much doubt the British establishment or govt are using this and going after her and using it to deflect from the carnage they’re inflicting on us. The British govt is a ****ing bin fire man  

Sturgeon has had more opportunities than she could’ve wished for and look where were at? 
Arguing about what a woman is…

Holy ****!

[Rupert Custard]

8 hours ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

Such a capable man in his pomp, even his enemies and detractors respected him. Doesn't miss and hit the wall with that tirade, great stuff!!

Salmond seemed genuinely willing to work for the benefit of ALL of Scotland.

 

Sturgeon has brought only difference, division and manufactured grievance. She has done nothing to bring undecided voters to her side of the argument and has only polarised opinion - and this is reflected in the fact that support for independence has not advanced one iota under her watch despite Brexit, Johnson and an incompetent and corrupt Tory regime.

 

Then there is her administrations appalling performance.

[The Mighty Thor]

36 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Though little of this debate pertains to actual independence merits or otherwise. 

Don't let that stand in the way of a few half wits getting themselves worked up over absolutely nothing. 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

Why don’t NS and SNP just self identify as independent. 
 

That said I have no idea what trans debate has to do with Indy. Though little of this debate pertains to actual independence merits or otherwise. 

Correct.

[The Real Maroonblood]

9 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Salmond seems like one of the last good politicians. I’m not excusing or assuming either his innocence or guilt in that case against him but for his politics at least I believe he wanted Indy. He wants it. 
It’s night and day to what the snp is now. 
To think they’re arguing and bogged down and being battered about this trans bullshit is nuts. 
Sturgeon needs emptied. Pronto. 

[pablo]

Such a poor strategy from the Nationalists. That surge in support after losing the referendum was unreal. They had it all. But instead of governing for the whole of Scotland, they decided that the best approach was to dismiss out of hand and vilify half of the electorate, many who just had concerns or wanted more information. You don't agree with us? Fk you. You want a bit more clarity? Fk you. You want more collaboration with Westminster for the betterment of all? Fk you.

 

There's no legal route to achieve it and there's no groundswell of support to even make the question relevant anymore. It's over.

 

 

[jack D and coke]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

Such a poor strategy from the Nationalists. That surge in support after losing the referendum was unreal. They had it all. But instead of governing for the whole of Scotland, they decided that the best approach was to dismiss out of hand and vilify half of the electorate, many who just had concerns or wanted more information. You don't agree with us? Fk you. You want a bit more clarity? Fk you. You want more collaboration with Westminster for the betterment of all? Fk you.

 

There's no legal route to achieve it and there's no groundswell of support to even make the question relevant anymore. It's over.

 

 

That’s a croc. You’d never be convinced. 
The whole fk you schtick is straight off the express front page, drivel. 

Sturgeon has had no real strategy that’s the biggest problem, just thought it was all about her. 
It’s almost funny she’s dying on this weird trans hill though. 
What an arsehole. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 hours ago, jonesy said:

This is relevant to the Indy debate because so much of it is wrapped up in getting rid of the sleaze and corruption endemic at Westminster. If she doesn’t want to talk about her own husband lending more than 3x the average annual salary to the political party she leads and, moreover, can’t recall when he popped off down the ATM to take the cash out, then that shows she’s wildly out of touch with the average Scottish punter she claims to represent. Like a Poundland version of Sunak. 

Yes NS and the SNP have every relevance to this thread . 

11 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Imagine getting emptied for this ****ing nonsense though, dear oh dear  
There are hundreds of trans women in jails in England and Wales (obviously because of bigger population) and barely any up here so she’s getting hammered for things that are already happening in the rest of the uk at the same time…it’s an effort imo from the British state to dismantle them and she’s brought some of this on herself tbqh. 
There was a time I thought she was alright but she’s stayed around too long and inevitably in politics this is how it ends. Over something absurd. 
 

 

I think women and girjs safety isn’t a trivial matter . And the right to

speak truth and fact too . That’s what the “ trans “ debate is really about . 

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Don't let that stand in the way of a few half wits getting themselves worked up over absolutely nothing. 

 

 

Lol that’s not very polite debating  discourse 

[JudyJudyJudy]

15 minutes ago, pablo said:

Such a poor strategy from the Nationalists. That surge in support after losing the referendum was unreal. They had it all. But instead of governing for the whole of Scotland, they decided that the best approach was to dismiss out of hand and vilify half of the electorate, many who just had concerns or wanted more information. You don't agree with us? Fk you. You want a bit more clarity? Fk you. You want more collaboration with Westminster for the betterment of all? Fk you.

 

There's no legal route to achieve it and there's no groundswell of support to even make the question relevant anymore. It's over.

 

 

Very good posting 

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s a croc. You’d never be convinced. 
The whole fk you schtick is straight off the express front page, drivel. 

Sturgeon has had no real strategy that’s the biggest problem, just thought it was all about her. 
It’s almost funny she’s dying on this weird trans hill though. 
What an arsehole. 

Politicians never fail to surprise me how out of touch they become.

[pablo]

19 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s a croc. You’d never be convinced. 
The whole fk you schtick is straight off the express front page, drivel. 

Sturgeon has had no real strategy that’s the biggest problem, just thought it was all about her. 
It’s almost funny she’s dying on this weird trans hill though. 
What an arsehole. 

 

I've never read The Express in my puff

Well done on dismissing out of hand what I feel in exactly the same way the SNP has for the last decade.

Also we'll done for managing to make a post without slavering pish about Huns, Orange Walks or Union Jacks just because you come from a wee town and your Old Man was a bigot. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

10 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

I've never read The Express in my puff

Well done on dismissing out of hand what I feel in exactly the same way the SNP has for the last decade.

Also we'll done for managing to make a post without slavering pish about Huns, Orange Walks or Union Jacks just because you come from a wee town and your Old Man was a bigot. 

 

[XB52]

3 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

Why don’t NS and SNP just self identify as independent. 
 

That said I have no idea what trans debate has to do with Indy. Though little of this debate pertains to actual independence merits or otherwise. 

It has zero to do with independence, apart from allowing the unionist media to attack the SNP. It has also allowed an all out, shameful, attack on the trans community. In hindsight I bet NS hadn't bothered trying to improve the lives of this tiny minority but, due to having the support of 4 of the 5 parties in Holyrood, she couldn't have foreseen the unionist attacks.

[pablo]

6 minutes ago, XB52 said:

It has zero to do with independence, apart from allowing the unionist media to attack the SNP. It has also allowed an all out, shameful, attack on the trans community. In hindsight I bet NS hadn't bothered trying to improve the lives of this tiny minority but, due to having the support of 4 of the 5 parties in Holyrood, she couldn't have foreseen the unionist attacks.

 

In hindsight she probably wishes she understood the feelings and wishes of real women. 

[Dazo]

Avengers have assembled early this morning, wee Nic must have embarrassed herself again. 

[Dawnrazor]

42 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

In hindsight she probably wishes she understood the feelings and wishes of real women. 

Like a few other politicians I doubt she could describe what a woman is.

[Unknown user]

Just now, jonesy said:

I agree up to a point, although it has also perhaps opened the general public's eyes to the overall 'gender' debate.

 

Don't forget though, the 'attacks' you describe haven't solely been from the [big, bad] unionists.

 

It still has **** all to do with whether Scotland should be independent or not though.

[Unknown user]

Just now, jonesy said:

The only thing it highlights is that the flag-bearers for independence are increasingly out of touch with the general public - as happens to most parties in power too long. Like it or not, the SNP's ups and downs are linked to support for independence. We need a spectrum of popular pro-indy parties, rather than the SNP and their weirdo chums in the Greens.

 

It's got nothing to do with whether Scotland should be independent or not, the topic of this thread 🤷‍♂️

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, jonesy said:

So is this thread only for talking about the hypothetical merits and drawbacks of independence or is it for talking about all things related to independence? Seems a tad narrow in scope if the former, TBH.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

[Dazo]

Just now, jonesy said:

So is this thread only for talking about the hypothetical merits and drawbacks of independence or is it for talking about all things related to independence? Seems a tad narrow in scope if the former, TBH.

Seems like the only thread that certain posters demand that we all strictly stick to the thread title for discussion. Not like the censorship demanding snp in any way. 😂

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Glaringly obvious that the Indy movement needs fresh blood and fresh leadership. Sturgeon is in danger of wrecking it 

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dazo said:

Seems like the only thread that certain posters demand that we all strictly stick to the thread title for discussion. Not like the censorship demanding snp in any way. 😂

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?" 🤷‍♂️ 

 

There's already a thread for screeching about trans issues, start one for Sturgeon's a dick if that's your thing.

[Dazo]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?" 🤷‍♂️ 

 

There's already a thread for screeching about trans issues, start one for Sturgeon's a dick if that's your thing.

Whether you like it or not Smithee the behaviour and merits of the potential leader of an independent Scotland are part of the debate following your question. So you’re just going to live it. 
 

I doubt Sturgeon would know a dick if it was slapped across her face never mind if she is one or not. 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Dazo said:

Whether you like it or not Smithee the behaviour and merits of the potential leader of an independent Scotland are part of the debate following your question. So you’re just going to live it. 
 

I doubt Sturgeon would know a dick if it was slapped across her face never mind if she is one or not. 

A very fair and pertinent point.

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Whether you like it or not Smithee the behaviour and merits of the potential leader of an independent Scotland are part of the debate following your question. So you’re just going to live it. 
 

I doubt Sturgeon would know a dick if it was slapped across her face never mind if she is one or not. 

 

Whether you like it or not, attacking a particular personality has zero to do with whether Scotland should be independent or not.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Whether you like it or not, attacking a particular personality has zero to do with whether Scotland should be independent or not.

Come on Smithee, She's not a "particular personality" she's the leader of the only political party that can deliver independence, her ability to deliver policies, promises and the vision to convince the majority of the Scottish population to vote in the favour of independence is front and centre of "should Scotland be an independent county", if she can't be trusted or can't describe what a women or similar is what will stop people being convinced, Sturgeon and the SNP are exactly what should be being discussed on a thread asking if Scotland should be an independent country. 

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Come on Smithee, She's not a "particular personality" she's the leader of the only political party that can deliver independence, her ability to deliver policies, promises and the vision to convince the majority of the Scottish population to vote in the favour of independence is front and centre of "should Scotland be an independent county", if she can't be trusted or can't describe what a women or similar is what will stop people being convinced, Sturgeon and the SNP are exactly what should be being discussed on a thread asking if Scotland should be an independent country. 

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

 

There hasn't even been a referendum, or even legislation to have one, let alone the years it'll take to become fully independent. There's pretty much no chance that Sturgeon will be SNP leader when Scotland finally becomes independent.

 

This isn't about whether Scotland should be independent or not.

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

 

There hasn't even been a referendum, or even legislation to have one, let alone the years it'll take to become fully independent. There's pretty much no chance that Sturgeon will be SNP leader when Scotland finally becomes independent.

 

This isn't about whether Scotland should be independent or not.

Sturgeon leads the SNP now, the SNP is the only party that can deliver independence, the the credibility of both the leader of the party and the party that's sole purpose is to deliver independence is absolutely at the core of the question being asked, the question isn't "should Scotland be an independent country when Sturgeon has gone and when the lagal question has been resolved and the referendum date has been set and the infrastructure has been agreed". Sturgeon and the SNP are inseparable from the "should Scotland be an independent country" question.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Come on Smithee, She's not a "particular personality" she's the leader of the only political party that can deliver independence, her ability to deliver policies, promises and the vision to convince the majority of the Scottish population to vote in the favour of independence is front and centre of "should Scotland be an independent county", if she can't be trusted or can't describe what a women or similar is what will stop people being convinced, Sturgeon and the SNP are exactly what should be being discussed on a thread asking if Scotland should be an independent country. 

She's also made it so much about her over the last few years.  She is intrinsically linked to the cause.

[Unknown user]

Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Should Scotland be an independent country?

🤣🤣🤣 aye, ok 👍

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

🤣🤣🤣 aye, ok 👍

 

I'm just quoting the thread title 🤷‍♂️ 

 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm just quoting the thread title 🤷‍♂️ 

 

 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

 

🤷‍♂️ am I not?

 

At least someone's trying to keep it on topic.

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

🤷‍♂️ am I not?

 

At least someone's trying to keep it on topic.

Sometimes a daft gif is pretty much what you posts deserve Smithee 👍

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Sometimes a daft gif is pretty much what you posts deserve Smithee 👍

Cool.

 

Should Scotland be an independent country?

[periodictabledancer]

38 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

 

if she can't be trusted or can't describe what a women or similar is what will stop people being convinced, 

As I've said before on here numerous times, I'm no great fan of the SNP in general and I can say that from bitter personal experience. If people are unable to bring themselves to vote for independence on the basis that it's putative leader "can't describe what a woman is" then those people deserve what's coming to them.

The hysteria over this whole matter is a national embarrassment.

Interfering busybodies , bigots and the usual suspects* telling the world that 16 Y O (who pay taxes, get married , have kids, can vote) cannot be allowed to decide their own gender is absolutely ridiculous.  So much for the human rights of those caught up in this, whose human rights don't appear to ever be considered. 

 

I'm not suggesting you fall into this scenario. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

 

In hindsight she probably wishes she understood the feelings and wishes of real women. 

And she’s meant to be a “ feminist to her fingertips “ ! 

[Dawnrazor]

6 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

As I've said before on here numerous times, I'm no great fan of the SNP in general and I can say that from bitter personal experience. If people are unable to bring themselves to vote for independence on the basis that it's putative leader "can't describe what a woman is" then those people deserve what's coming to them.

The hysteria over this whole matter is a national embarrassment.

Interfering busybodies , bigots and the usual suspects* telling the world that 16 Y O (who pay taxes, get married , have kids, can vote) cannot be allowed to decide their own gender is absolutely ridiculous.  So much for the human rights of those caught up in this, whose human rights don't appear to ever be considered. 

 

I'm not suggesting you fall into this scenario. 

My point was that if the leader of the only party that can deliver independence is seen as untrustworthy or arrogant and dismissive, this is an argument that's at the forefront of the "should Scotland be an independent counrty" question. 

 

[Dawnrazor]

10 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

As I've said before on here numerous times, I'm no great fan of the SNP in general and I can say that from bitter personal experience. If people are unable to bring themselves to vote for independence on the basis that it's putative leader "can't describe what a woman is" then those people deserve what's coming to them.

The hysteria over this whole matter is a national embarrassment.

Interfering busybodies , bigots and the usual suspects* telling the world that 16 Y O (who pay taxes, get married , have kids, can vote) cannot be allowed to decide their own gender is absolutely ridiculous.  So much for the human rights of those caught up in this, whose human rights don't appear to ever be considered. 

 

I'm not suggesting you fall into this scenario. 

I don't think to many are saying 16 year olds can't say what their gender is, people are saying that men shouldn't be in womens spaces and double rapist men definitely shouldn't be put unto womens prisons, if a boy wants to live as a girl that's absolutely fine by me and I suspect many more, but he shouldn't be allowed into changing rooms and the like with biological women, it's this that seems to have tripped up Sturgeon, I don't think she read the room correctly on this issue, for whatever reasons.

[BlueRiver]

17 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

As I've said before on here numerous times, I'm no great fan of the SNP in general and I can say that from bitter personal experience. If people are unable to bring themselves to vote for independence on the basis that it's putative leader "can't describe what a woman is" then those people deserve what's coming to them.

The hysteria over this whole matter is a national embarrassment.

Interfering busybodies , bigots and the usual suspects* telling the world that 16 Y O (who pay taxes, get married , have kids, can vote) cannot be allowed to decide their own gender is absolutely ridiculous.  So much for the human rights of those caught up in this, whose human rights don't appear to ever be considered. 

 

I'm not suggesting you fall into this scenario. 

 

We tell all sorts of ages of folk what they can and can't do. 

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

My point was that if the leader of the only party that can deliver independence is seen as untrustworthy or arrogant and dismissive, this is an argument that's at the forefront of the "should Scotland be an independent counrty" question. 

 

 

Bollocks it is

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

Bollocks it is

It isn't, what's "Bollocks it is" is your constant and pathetic defense of Sturgeon, you can't separate Sturgeon, the SNP from the independence argument and it's killing you! Sook it up Buttercup👍

[Unknown user]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

It isn't, what's "Bollocks it is" is your constant and pathetic defense of Sturgeon, you can't separate Sturgeon, the SNP from the independence argument and it's killing you! Sook it up Buttercup👍

 

Just because you're attacking Sturgeon doesn't mean I'm defending her though, does it?

 

I'm saying this isn't the place for "**** Sturgeon she doesn't know what a woman is," this is the place for "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

Just because you're attacking Sturgeon doesn't mean I'm defending her though, does it?

 

I'm saying this isn't the place for "**** Sturgeon she doesn't know what a woman is," this is the place for "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

It's your incorrect assumption that anything about Sturgeon or the SNP in a "Should Scotland  be an independent country" is off topic, it's absolutely on topic for the reasons you've been given dozens of times but constantly stick your fingers in you ears and and try to ignore.