Should Scotland be an independent country?

[The Mighty Thor]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Yes

Really?

 

Have you been in a coma for the last decade?

[The Real Maroonblood]

27 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Really?

 

Have you been in a coma for the last decade?

[Konrad von Carstein]

3 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

The Queensferry Crossing is already proving to be under specification. 

Please, do enlighten us...

[pablo]

9 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

 

Explain? 

[Malinga the Swinga]

According to the genius of independence, Smother, the granting of independence will cure absolutely every issue instantly.

Corruption in government will disappear, sectarianism will disappear, drug deaths will cease, the Scottish economy will rebound to unparalleled heights, industries won't leave Scotland as forecast but will be drawn in to the country, despite their being higher taxes on everything and everyone.

The queues at Scottish hospitals will vanish overnight, education will go back to the standards it reached before the SNP took over, sexism, racism and gender issues will all vanish as we dance round streets on tartan wigs, brave heart face paint shouting freedom.

No worries over hard border with England, no worries over no currency plan, no worries over energy crisis, no worries over public services and all without any written plan, idea or notion how this will occur, just it will because he says so.

Oh, the SNP are going to dissolve immediately upon this independence as they will have achieved their aim and will give up the power they have craved for years because, well because Smithee said so.

Of course, the hard working people if Scotland will gladly pay more tax to fund this dream, even though no opinion polls have ever said they will, because we want to reward those who haven't worked as hard and haven't contributed as it's the fair thing to do. Some would say that you get out of life what you put in but in the utopian new Scotland, work hard, don't work hard, it doesn't matter because Chief Mammy will give you whatever you want free of charge, or at courtesy of someone else's cash.

Who, apart from the majority of hard working Scots, could resist such an offer? 

 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

According to the genius of independence, Smother, the granting of independence will cure absolutely every issue instantly.

Corruption in government will disappear, sectarianism will disappear, drug deaths will cease, the Scottish economy will rebound to unparalleled heights, industries won't leave Scotland as forecast but will be drawn in to the country, despite their being higher taxes on everything and everyone.

The queues at Scottish hospitals will vanish overnight, education will go back to the standards it reached before the SNP took over, sexism, racism and gender issues will all vanish as we dance round streets on tartan wigs, brave heart face paint shouting freedom.

No worries over hard border with England, no worries over no currency plan, no worries over energy crisis, no worries over public services and all without any written plan, idea or notion how this will occur, just it will because he says so.

Oh, the SNP are going to dissolve immediately upon this independence as they will have achieved their aim and will give up the power they have craved for years because, well because Smithee said so.

Of course, the hard working people if Scotland will gladly pay more tax to fund this dream, even though no opinion polls have ever said they will, because we want to reward those who haven't worked as hard and haven't contributed as it's the fair thing to do. Some would say that you get out of life what you put in but in the utopian new Scotland, work hard, don't work hard, it doesn't matter because Chief Mammy will give you whatever you want free of charge, or at courtesy of someone else's cash.

Who, apart from the majority of hard working Scots, could resist such an offer? 

 

 

Poor Smother, sounds like he's being massively misrepresented by a cynical nonsense monger.

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Incredible what Scotland and England achieved together wasn't it, poor show in South America mind you.

[The Real Maroonblood]

49 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Explain? 

Going by your posts it's pretty evident. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by The Real Maroonblood

[jack D and coke]

39 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

According to the genius of independence, Smother, the granting of independence will cure absolutely every issue instantly.

Corruption in government will disappear, sectarianism will disappear, drug deaths will cease, the Scottish economy will rebound to unparalleled heights, industries won't leave Scotland as forecast but will be drawn in to the country, despite their being higher taxes on everything and everyone.

The queues at Scottish hospitals will vanish overnight, education will go back to the standards it reached before the SNP took over, sexism, racism and gender issues will all vanish as we dance round streets on tartan wigs, brave heart face paint shouting freedom.

No worries over hard border with England, no worries over no currency plan, no worries over energy crisis, no worries over public services and all without any written plan, idea or notion how this will occur, just it will because he says so.

Oh, the SNP are going to dissolve immediately upon this independence as they will have achieved their aim and will give up the power they have craved for years because, well because Smithee said so.

Of course, the hard working people if Scotland will gladly pay more tax to fund this dream, even though no opinion polls have ever said they will, because we want to reward those who haven't worked as hard and haven't contributed as it's the fair thing to do. Some would say that you get out of life what you put in but in the utopian new Scotland, work hard, don't work hard, it doesn't matter because Chief Mammy will give you whatever you want free of charge, or at courtesy of someone else's cash.

Who, apart from the majority of hard working Scots, could resist such an offer? 

 

You post the most unbelievable amounts of shite man. 

[pablo]

6 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Going by your posts it's pretty evident. 

 

What is? Explain to me how you think Independence will help the lives of working class and low income Scots please? 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, pablo said:

 

What is? Explain to me how you think Independence will help the lives of working class and low income Scots please? 

There is no argument about a country wanting to self govern.

Your argument is futile.

 

[Roxy Hearts]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

What is? Explain to me how you think Independence will help the lives of working class and low income Scots please? 

We'll have the opportunity to choose governments who have the best policies to suit out needs. We may have a political system that benefits the majority who vote within it. A better democracy all round IMO. 

 

I'm personally not bothered about my personal beliefs, just that Scotland gets the governments it votes for or can vote out. It's not always for economic reasons for me. I'd probably vote small 'c' Conservative.

[pablo]

10 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

There is no argument about a country wanting to self govern.

Your argument is futile.

 

 

Why is it pointless to be concerned class and the impact it could have on the working class in particular?

Edited November 6, 2022 by pablo

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

While is it pointless to be concerned class and the impact it could have on the working class in particular?

The UK government could be the greatest but I don't give a toss if it was.

I want to self govern.

Of course there will be problems. 

This thread can go round and round on the same arguments.

Self govern.

End off.

Have a good day.

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The UK government could be the greatest but I don't give a toss if it was.

I want to self govern.

Of course there will be problems. 

This thread can go round and round on the same arguments.

Self govern.

End off.

Have a good day.

 

 

👍 

[Unknown user]

20 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

What is? Explain to me how you think Independence will help the lives of working class and low income Scots please? 

 

We can vote for change, it's not complicated.

 

If you genuinely had any interest in low income Scots you wouldn't be using them to score a point, you'd be wanting us TF away from Westminster's neoliberal war on the poor.

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The UK government could be the greatest but I don't give a toss if it was.

I want to self govern.

Of course there will be problems. 

This thread can go round and round on the same arguments.

Self govern.

End off.

Have a good day.

 

 

 

Cool. At all costs. Fair enough and good day to you too.

[Roxy Hearts]

15 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Why is it pointless to be concerned class and the impact it could have on the working class in particular?

Who's going to suffer if those idiots, Labour get in. Will they help the poor? Any UK government care about one thing and that's their own existence. They insult our intelligence!

[pablo]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

We can vote for change, it's not complicated.

 

If you genuinely had any interest in low income Scots you wouldn't be using them to score a point, you'd be wanting us TF away from Westminster's neoliberal war on the poor.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. 

 

So how is the SNP's version of neoliberalism independence right out of the Tartan Tory handbook going to help low income Scots?

 

Where is class discussion? It's not there because the SNP have to try to appeal to as many as possible, obviously.

 

And if you had any genuine interest in the well being of low income Scots, you'd reject out of hand the SNP's "plan".

[Roxy Hearts]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Cool. At all costs. Fair enough and good day to you too.

Don't pay for nuclear weapons or any other things not relative to Scotland and set up a proper, constructive, reasonable welfare state. Work in partnership with other nations and benefit from the systems they use and we could implement. 

 

It's all about choices and finding ways to make a better life for all not the few. We Scots are fairly intelligent!

[Unknown user]

Just now, pablo said:

 

Now we're getting somewhere. 

 

So how is the SNP's version of neoliberalism independence right out of the Tartan Tory handbook going to help low income Scots?

 

Where is class discussion? It's not there because the SNP have to try to appeal to as many as possible, obviously.

 

And if you had any genuine interest in the well being of low income Scots, you'd reject out of hand the SNP's "plan".

 

Sorry mate, this thread's about independence, not the SNP, a party I don't really care for 👍

[Malinga the Swinga]

Neo liberal war on the poor! Someone's being reading too much Guardian and The National.

The poor have never had do much on benefits provided free of charge to them.

While there are those who deserve and receive help, there are plenty who are happy scrounging off the efforts of others and contributing nothing.

All encouraged by a Scottish government who are happy to stoke up division and grievance whilst doing nothing to assist the working class in Scotland.

At least TRM is honest, he doesn't care about anything other than independence and self governance, even if it means generations of austerity in Scotland and thousands of job losses.

Other dress it up as a war being actioned on the poor, most likely because they haven't the intelligence to think beyond what our FM and her government tell them. Feeling sorry for themselves, unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and where they are in life, they are happy to be victims in order to balance the chip on their shoulders.

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Neo liberal war on the poor! Someone's being reading too much Guardian and The National.

The poor have never had do much on benefits provided free of charge to them.

While there are those who deserve and receive help, there are plenty who are happy scrounging off the efforts of others and contributing nothing.

All encouraged by a Scottish government who are happy to stoke up division and grievance whilst doing nothing to assist the working class in Scotland.

At least TRM is honest, he doesn't care about anything other than independence and self governance, even if it means generations of austerity in Scotland and thousands of job losses.

Other dress it up as a war being actioned on the poor, most likely because they haven't the intelligence to think beyond what our FM and her government tell them. Feeling sorry for themselves, unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and where they are in life, they are happy to be victims in order to balance the chip on their shoulders.

In your humble opinion. Try using paragraphs, it will read better. Vote for independence and eventually get rid of the SNP. Vote who's best to govern and get a better choice. IMO!

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

In your humble opinion. Try using paragraphs, it will read better. Vote for independence and eventually get rid of the SNP. Vote who's best to govern and get a better choice. IMO!

I get this argument but I always find it very along the lines of left-wing Brexit type arguments. 
 

The SNP are far and away the most likely to be involved in negotiations following an Indy vote and I don’t trust the *******s as far as I can throw them…which in the case of Blackford…

 

So by the time we get to electing the parties we want to take Scotland forward, large parts of the agenda will have been set by the SNP. 

[Jeffros Furios]

13 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Neo liberal war on the poor! Someone's being reading too much Guardian and The National.

The poor have never had do much on benefits provided free of charge to them.

While there are those who deserve and receive help, there are plenty who are happy scrounging off the efforts of others and contributing nothing.

All encouraged by a Scottish government who are happy to stoke up division and grievance whilst doing nothing to assist the working class in Scotland.

At least TRM is honest, he doesn't care about anything other than independence and self governance, even if it means generations of austerity in Scotland and thousands of job losses.

Other dress it up as a war being actioned on the poor, most likely because they haven't the intelligence to think beyond what our FM and her government tell them. Feeling sorry for themselves, unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and where they are in life, they are happy to be victims in order to balance the chip on their shoulders.

Freedom isn't free .

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I get this argument but I always find it very along the lines of left-wing Brexit type arguments. 
 

The SNP are far and away the most likely to be involved in negotiations following an Indy vote and I don’t trust the *******s as far as I can throw them…which in the case of Blackford…

 

So by the time we get to electing the parties we want to take Scotland forward, large parts of the agenda will have been set by the SNP. 

I don't view independence negotiations via party politics lines. There will be civil servants, economists, a collection of political will etc..

 

It won't be easy and there will be a lot of hard work and that's a good thing. The politicians will be scrutinised a lot more.

 

The whole thing is no-one is sure and that's part of the excitement for me. Scots and others working for Scotland. We get to choose.

[Unknown user]

20 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I get this argument but I always find it very along the lines of left-wing Brexit type arguments. 
 

The SNP are far and away the most likely to be involved in negotiations following an Indy vote and I don’t trust the *******s as far as I can throw them…which in the case of Blackford…

 

So by the time we get to electing the parties we want to take Scotland forward, large parts of the agenda will have been set by the SNP. 

 

And if we don't vote independence, we stay in a country set up by Tories, for Tories, before waiting to see what England votes next (Tory, with the odd blip)

 

This isn't about the SNP, this is about Scotland's government being decided by Scotland's electorate.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Smithee

[pablo]

 

The framework is being set by smug Scottish neoliberal exceptionalists. 

 

There's no way for a different political system to emerge from that.

 

There will be no proper central bank on Day1 to support public sector investment or new green economic deals. GDP, tax and spending, currency will establish the playing field from the get go.

 

****ing over the working classes on the back of lies from Tartan Tories.

 

Shameful really. 

[BlueRiver]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

And if we don't vote independence, we stay in a country set up by Tories, for Tories, before waiting to see what England votes next (Tory, with the odd blip)

 

This isn't about the SNP, this is about Scotland's government being decided by Scotland's electorate.

However the government that will initially negotiation a post-Indy settlement will be SNP. 
 

So it very much is about the SNP in the same way Brexit was about the Tories. 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

However the government that will initially negotiation a post-Indy settlement will be SNP. 
 

So it very much is about the SNP in the same way Brexit was about the Tories. 

 

"I don't want a democratic voice because it might not be set up the way I like"

[Unknown user]

10 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The framework is being set by smug Scottish neoliberal exceptionalists. 

 

There's no way for a different political system to emerge from that.

 

There will be no proper central bank on Day1 to support public sector investment or new green economic deals. GDP, tax and spending, currency will establish the playing field from the get go.

 

****ing over the working classes on the back of lies from Tartan Tories.

 

Shameful really. 

 

Complete with tartan Tories and everything, brilliant

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

"I don't want a democratic voice because it might not be set up the way I like"

You’re assuming I believe I don’t have one. 

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

You’re assuming I believe I don’t have one. 

Yes, I'm assuming you live in Scotland, and reality.

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Complete with tartan Tories and everything, brilliant

 

Is that it? Seriously?

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

20 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The framework is being set by smug Scottish neoliberal exceptionalists. 

 

There's no way for a different political system to emerge from that.

 

There will be no proper central bank on Day1 to support public sector investment or new green economic deals. GDP, tax and spending, currency will establish the playing field from the get go.

 

****ing over the working classes on the back of lies from Tartan Tories.

 

Shameful really. 

What's a "Tartan Tory"? Heard this for years. Must've have been said by a Labour moron. Labour and Tories are the same. Establishment puppets voted in by the stupid.

[briever]

4 hours ago, Dazo said:

What are they ignoring specifically ? 

 

£10s of billions spent on tanks and aircraft carriers that dont work, 100s of millions of overspends on ever capital project they have their paws on.

[Unknown user]

9 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Is that it? Seriously?

 

 

You got the answer you deserved mate

[pablo]

9 minutes ago, Smithee said:

You got the answer you deserved mate

 

Oh mate, that just sounds like you are saying that you don't want to discuss the SNP and their record, it's about Independence in general. I take your point and try to widen the discussion to how a new political system emerges under the current proposal and you don't want to talk about that either. 

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

Oh mate, that just sounds like you are saying that you don't want to discuss the SNP and their record, it's about Independence in general. I take your point and try to widen the discussion to how a new political system emerges under the current proposal and you don't want to talk about that either. 

 

I want Scotland's electorate to decide Scotland's government, you want to throw mud at the idea so you're coming out with shite like tartan Tories and neoliberalism - you got the answer you deserved.

 

Only Scotland's electorate should decide Scotland's government.

[pablo]

16 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I want Scotland's electorate to decide Scotland's government, you want to throw mud at the idea so you're coming out with shite like tartan Tories and neoliberalism - you got the answer you deserved.

 

Only Scotland's electorate should decide Scotland's government.

 

A price worth paying whatever the cost?

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

A price worth paying whatever the cost?

 

And your attachment to the union?

[Lord Montpelier]

6 hours ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Please, do enlighten us...

Every weekend for the last month I've been stuck in a tailback . Plus 30mph limits on evenings

 

Should have been 3 lanes with supporting motorway network . That's what a proper country would have done anyway. 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Every weekend for the last month I've been stuck in a tailback . Plus 30mph limits on evenings

 

Should have been 3 lanes with supporting motorway network . That's what a proper country would have done anyway. 

So it's not out of the specifications for the build then,

 

I agree with the 3 lanes btw...

[briever]

11 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

The Queensferry Crossing is already proving to be under specification. 

 

Bullshit.

[briever]

10 hours ago, pablo said:

 

It is relevant because it's what's on offer, no?

 

So in my opinion, Scotland shouldn't be an Independent country because it won't help a single working class or low income Scot for decades, if it actually ever will.

 

Of course the union is currently helping working class and low income Scots.

[briever]

6 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Neo liberal war on the poor! Someone's being reading too much Guardian and The National.

The poor have never had do much on benefits provided free of charge to them.

While there are those who deserve and receive help, there are plenty who are happy scrounging off the efforts of others and contributing nothing.

All encouraged by a Scottish government who are happy to stoke up division and grievance whilst doing nothing to assist the working class in Scotland.

At least TRM is honest, he doesn't care about anything other than independence and self governance, even if it means generations of austerity in Scotland and thousands of job losses.

Other dress it up as a war being actioned on the poor, most likely because they haven't the intelligence to think beyond what our FM and her government tell them. Feeling sorry for themselves, unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and where they are in life, they are happy to be victims in order to balance the chip on their shoulders.

 

Sorry if this offends, but you're a dribbling moron.

[Lord Montpelier]

5 minutes ago, briever said:

 

Bullshit.

Do elaborate 

[briever]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Do elaborate 

 

The onus is on you, you're the one making the daft claim.

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Neo liberal war on the poor! Someone's being reading too much Guardian and The National.

The poor have never had do much on benefits provided free of charge to them.

While there are those who deserve and receive help, there are plenty who are happy scrounging off the efforts of others and contributing nothing.

All encouraged by a Scottish government who are happy to stoke up division and grievance whilst doing nothing to assist the working class in Scotland.

At least TRM is honest, he doesn't care about anything other than independence and self governance, even if it means generations of austerity in Scotland and thousands of job losses.

Other dress it up as a war being actioned on the poor, most likely because they haven't the intelligence to think beyond what our FM and her government tell them. Feeling sorry for themselves, unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and where they are in life, they are happy to be victims in order to balance the chip on their shoulders.

There are over 100 types of benefits

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, briever said:

 

The onus is on you, you're the one making the daft claim.

Should have been designed with 3 lanes plus surrounding road network similar. Instead we continue to run at 1950s capacity. What's your point caller ?