Should Scotland be an independent country?

[BlueRiver]

I’m also going to invite those that claim sovereignty of the Scottish people as a constitutional principle to square that with their consistent want to subvert the wish of the 50%+ of the electorate that vote for parties in support of the union. Surely such sovereignty of the Scottish people should override any electoral systems that give skewed pictures of support? 
 

 

 

[briever]

41 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I’m also going to invite those that claim sovereignty of the Scottish people as a constitutional principle to square that with their consistent want to subvert the wish of the 50%+ of the electorate that vote for parties in support of the union. Surely such sovereignty of the Scottish people should override any electoral systems that give skewed pictures of support? 
 

 

 

 

That's it then there was a vote in 2014 and it should never voted on again and you are arguing this is not subverting democracy.

[pablo]

35 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I’m also going to invite those that claim sovereignty of the Scottish people as a constitutional principle to square that with their consistent want to subvert the wish of the 50%+ of the electorate that vote for parties in support of the union. Surely such sovereignty of the Scottish people should override any electoral systems that give skewed pictures of support? 
 

 

 

 

The independence-at-all-costs camp fall neatly into two camps.

 

Blue faced radges who tug themselves off to the imagery of Braveheart. And bourgeois middle class arses who like to affect a Scots dialogue who benefit from "free" University places and other non means tested giveaways. Ignoring the even greater pain that come the working classes way...  

 

Not for one second suggesting all people who consider Scexit as something worthy are in this place. But the at-all-costs brigade 100%

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, briever said:

 

That's it then there was a vote in 2014 and it should never voted on again and you are arguing this is not subverting democracy.

Thats it then we should have a rerun every 6 months? 
 

I can put words in peope’s mouths too 🙂 

 

Just because you don’t like an outcome doesn’t mean democracy is being subverted. 

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, pablo said:

 

The independence-at-all-costs camp fall neatly into two camps.

 

Blue faced radges who tug themselves off to the imagery of Braveheart. And bourgeois middle class arses who like to affect a Scots dialogue who benefit from "free" University places and other non means tested giveaways. Ignoring the even greater pain that come the working classes way...  

 

Not for one second suggesting all people who consider Scexit as something worthy are in this place. But the at-all-costs brigade 100%

This thread does seem to attract a particular type of hardcore and some of them are on the unionist side as well. 
 

 

[briever]

Just now, BlueRiver said:

Thats it then we should have a rerun every 6 months? 
 

I can put words in peope’s mouths too 🙂 

 

Just because you don’t like an outcome doesn’t mean democracy is being subverted. 

 

Yes it does, its the foundation of western democracy - another chance always comes around.

[BlueRiver]

13 minutes ago, briever said:

 

Yes it does, its the foundation of western democracy - another chance always comes around.

Who said it wouldn’t? Just because you aren’t getting it on your specific timetable doesn’t mean democracy is being subverted. 

Your issue is that everyone else isn’t letting the SNP tail wag the UK dog so you cry anti-Democratic. 
 

The sovereign will of the Scottish people has been a clear 50%+ of the vote for unionist parties. Regardless of how this translates due to electoral system distortions, surely someone with such love for Scotland and their fellow Scots as you will recognise this?  

[briever]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

Who said it wouldn’t? Just because you aren’t getting it on your specific timetable doesn’t mean democracy is being subverted. 

Your issue is that everyone else isn’t letting the SNP tail wag the UK dog so you cry anti-Democratic. 
 

The sovereign will of the Scottish people has been a clear 50%+ of the vote for unionist parties. Regardless of how this translates due to electoral system distortions, surely someone with such love for Scotland and their fellow Scots as you will recognise this?  

 

That clear 50%+ of the vote for unionist parties will have resulted in majorities sent to WM and Holyrood then.

[BlueRiver]

1 minute ago, briever said:

 

That clear 50%+ of the vote for unionist parties will have resulted in majorities sent to WM and Holyrood then.

Electoral quirks should not undermine the sovereignty of the Scottish people. 
 

if the Scottish people are sovereign they have expressed time and again that there is no clear majority for independence. 
 

Stop greeting and get on with creating one. But you can’t. The movement ran out of ideas 8 years ago and has stagnated under honking leadership since. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

12 hours ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Lol  Not got much time for George, but at least he's a Jambo though

 

Arrested for shouting naughty things at the Celtic fans 

That would make him a good guy to the majority of Hearts fans

 

Showing your true colours here Pasquale?

 

PFK is hibs. 

Nap. 

[the posh bit]

7 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

The sovereign will of the Scottish people has been a clear 50%+ of the vote for unionist parties. Regardless of how this translates due to electoral system distortions, surely someone with such love for Scotland and their fellow Scots as you will recognise this?  

 

This is what Unionists in Scotland are reduced to. 😁

[BlueRiver]

14 minutes ago, the posh bit said:

 

This is what Unionists in Scotland are reduced to. 😁

Nothing of the sort? It’s your leader that wants to make the next general election a referendum. 
 

It’s your lot that are going on about sovereignty of the Scottish people etc. 

[the posh bit]

22 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

Nothing of the sort? It’s your leader that wants to make the next general election a referendum. 
 

It’s your lot that are going on about sovereignty of the Scottish people etc. 

 

I don't have a leader or a lot. I'm undecided as to which pro-Indy party I will vote for next.

Edited October 30, 2022 by the posh bit

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, the posh bit said:

 

I don't have a leader or a lot. I'm undecided as to which pro-Indy party I will vote for next.

Very good 
 

 

[Sarah O]

You have to be a proper staunch yoonatic to not even be considering the benefits of independence after the last few months. 

 

I'm still waiting to hear why the union is worth fighting for. History? Scotland too shite to manage by itself? Too much effort? 

[pablo]

20 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

You have to be a proper staunch yoonatic to not even be considering the benefits of independence after the last few months. 

 

I'm still waiting to hear why the union is worth fighting for. History? Scotland too shite to manage by itself? Too much effort? 

 

Too shite

[jambos are go!]

56 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

You have to be a proper staunch yoonatic to not even be considering the benefits of independence after the last few months. 

 

I'm still waiting to hear why the union is worth fighting for. History? Scotland too shite to manage by itself? Too much effort? 

Since joining the political UK union Has Scotland been one  of the richest Nations on the Planet. Pretty good record I would say!

[briever]

23 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

Since joining the political UK union Has Scotland been one  of the richest Nations on the Planet. Pretty good record I would say!

 

Who is to say we wouldn't have been anyway - cue bollocks about Darrien.  The resources we had and have would have put us on par with Norway - one of the richest in the world.

But definitions of richest nations is largely bollocks - you dont have the number of foodbanks, children in poverty and homelessness that the UK has and call yourself a wealthy nation.  The wealth is concentrated on a tiny percentage of the population.

[Sarah O]

23 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

Since joining the political UK union Has Scotland been one  of the richest Nations on the Planet. Pretty good record I would say!

And now? 

 

Lowest state pensions in Europe. Can't afford to put the heating on. Can't afford food. Dictated to by wealthy Eton educated rich boys. 

 

Sign me up! 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

23 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

Since joining the political UK union Has Scotland been one  of the richest Nations on the Planet. Pretty good record I would say!

Chucked out a decent number of its own people in that era and more left to escape poverty. Not that we’re bitter mind…

[jambos are go!]

So rhetoric but no denials about well Scotland has done since joining the Union financially.

[briever]

11 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

So rhetoric but no denials about well Scotland has done since joining the Union financially.

 

The empire was about enriching the elite, the vast majority of the population lived in abject poverty.

[micole]

How can we say how good / bad Scotland has done since joining the union, we have nothing to gauge it against over the last 300 years....🤷‍♂️.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

37 minutes ago, briever said:

 

The empire was about enriching the elite, the vast majority of the population lived in abject poverty.

Ireland have done better on their own, than getting murdered by Westminster politics. I suppose the Highlanders may dispute being better off because of the clearances.

[jambos are go!]

How well Scotland would have done outside the Union is unsubstantiated speculation and should be made clear. How Scotland did is known and can be clearly stated as a fact and that should be accepted and not downplayed.

[The Mighty Thor]

43 minutes ago, briever said:

 

The empire was about enriching the elite, the vast majority of the population lived in abject poverty.

Aye it took nearly 250 years of the great union before they finally got round to clearing the slums that 'enriched' the people of Scotland. 

 

It's only ever been about one thing and it's not been the betterment of the population. 

[jambos are go!]

5 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Ireland have done better on their own, than getting murdered by Westminster politics. I suppose the Highlanders may dispute being better off because of the clearances.

Ireland is a tax haven and that wealth does trickle down but adds to GDP.

The clearances cannot be defended and I won't try.

[briever]

13 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

How well Scotland would have done outside the Union is unsubstantiated speculation and should be made clear. How Scotland did is known and can be clearly stated as a fact and that should be accepted and not downplayed.

 

With the usual caveats of course.

[briever]

46 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

Ireland is a tax haven and that wealth does trickle down but adds to GDP.

The clearances cannot be defended and I won't try.

 

Ireland is not a tax haven - it has some neolib attitude to taxation but its miles away from being a tax haven - nothing something you could ever say about the UK Crown Dependencies.

[jambomjm74]

9 minutes ago, briever said:

 

Ireland is not a tax haven - it has some neolib attitude to taxation but its miles away from being a tax haven - nothing something you could ever say about the UK Crown Dependencies.

It is a tax haven for many offshore investments… that’s just a simple fact it also houses many of the worlds top banks and insurers (often in name only) due to its low rates of taxation.. 

Yes the U.K. crown dependencies have offshore dealings. 

You either lack the Knowledge or are blinded by anti U.K. bias.

[westbow]

On 26/10/2022 at 17:25, AlphonseCapone said:

There are still folk equating what the SNP do to the concept of independence? Insane people can be that thick. 

Quite. Assuming reciprocity, this would be applicable to the present version of the Tory party. Applied to this thread and if insults are also removed I don’t think it would be past page 1 😂

[Japan Jambo]

34 minutes ago, briever said:

 

Ireland is not a tax haven - it has some neolib attitude to taxation but its miles away from being a tax haven - nothing something you could ever say about the UK Crown Dependencies.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/business/dealbook/ireland-us-tax-inversion.html

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

2 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

Ireland is a tax haven and that wealth does trickle down but adds to GDP.

The clearances cannot be defended and I won't try.

Long story short, Scotland hasn't done so well.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Interesting time scale if Scotland becomes Independent 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by JudyJudyJudy

[periodictabledancer]

2 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Interesting time scale if Scotland becomes Independent 

 

 

Source ?

There's no referendum on EU memebrship ? 

What about constitutional reform - elected upper chamber of Scottish parliament ? 

[periodictabledancer]

On 01/11/2022 at 15:39, jambomjm74 said:

It is a tax haven for many offshore investments… that’s just a simple fact it also houses many of the worlds top banks and insurers (often in name only) due to its low rates of taxation.. 

Yes the U.K. crown dependencies have offshore dealings. 

You either lack the Knowledge or are blinded by anti U.K. bias.

Which taxation rates are you talking about ? Can you acknowledge Ireland agreed to raise some "tax rates " to meet OED norms . 

 

As for the UK's probity : The US govt, under Obama (IIRC) did a survey of the worst tax havens and came up with a list of around 40 of which three quarters were UK dependencies including the IoM and the Channel Islands. 

[periodictabledancer]

On 01/11/2022 at 14:31, jambos are go! said:

How well Scotland would have done outside the Union is unsubstantiated speculation and should be made clear. How Scotland did is known and can be clearly stated as a fact and that should be accepted and not downplayed.

What's your thoughts on the McCrone report ?

Does it have any substance ? 

[manaliveits105]

1 hour ago, periodictabledancer said:

Source ?

There's no referendum on EU memebrship ? 

What about constitutional reform - elected upper chamber of Scottish parliament ? 

Referendums will not be allowed in the new iScotland 

[Konrad von Carstein]

4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Referendums will not be allowed in the new iScotland 

Why?

[manaliveits105]

7 minutes ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

Why?

You know why 

[periodictabledancer]

4 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Referendums will not be allowed in the new iScotland 

Grow up.

[manaliveits105]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

Grow up.

Nuht 

[JudyJudyJudy]

46 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

You know why 

Oh she will be long gone after the Indy vote

[Japan Jambo]

9 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Interesting time scale if Scotland becomes Independent 

 

 

 

To interesting add ambitious - 6 months to negotiate a deal. Not convinced we've even properly bottomed out Brexit yet!

[Unknown user]

On 01/11/2022 at 15:24, briever said:

 

Ireland is not a tax haven - it has some neolib attitude to taxation but its miles away from being a tax haven - nothing something you could ever say about the UK Crown Dependencies.

 

Ireland's a tax haven mate, it went out of it's way to become one after getting battered in 2008

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Japan Jambo said:

 

To interesting add ambitious - 6 months to negotiate a deal. Not convinced we've even properly bottomed out Brexit yet!

I saw it on a pro Indy twitter feed . I was just posted it for discussion . It’s more than likely all fantasy and wishful thinking 

[Unknown user]

7 hours ago, periodictabledancer said:

Which taxation rates are you talking about ? Can you acknowledge Ireland agreed to raise some "tax rates " to meet OED norms . 

 

As for the UK's probity : The US govt, under Obama (IIRC) did a survey of the worst tax havens and came up with a list of around 40 of which three quarters were UK dependencies including the IoM and the Channel Islands. 

 

Corporation tax, I read that at one point Apple represented 20% of Irish GDP!

They made a deliberate play for it, the end result was that if a foreign company bought, or merged with, an Irish company, they could move their legal headquarters there and take advantage.

 

I think they did raise the rates recently after a few years, but I don't know by how much.

[Japan Jambo]

23 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Corporation tax, I read that at one point Apple represented 20% of Irish GDP!

They made a deliberate play for it, the end result was that if a foreign company bought, or merged with, an Irish company, they could move their legal headquarters there and take advantage.

 

I think they did raise the rates recently after a few years, but I don't know by how much.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

[Konrad von Carstein]

2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

You know why 

That's NOT Suella Braverman....

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

Corporation tax, I read that at one point Apple represented 20% of Irish GDP!

They made a deliberate play for it, the end result was that if a foreign company bought, or merged with, an Irish company, they could move their legal headquarters there and take advantage.

 

I think they did raise the rates recently after a few years, but I don't know by how much.

You don't know by how much but persist in stating Ireland is a "tax haven" ? Don't you think you should find out ? 

And i''ll come back to real tax havens - all those UK dependencies fingered by the US

government : places like IoM & Gibraltar , which were slaughtered for their criminality.