Should Scotland be an independent country?

[JudyJudyJudy]

27 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Does Keith know what a woman is?
 

I should hope so. hes married to one and i assumed had sex with one too. He just cant bring himself to say it when asked in public. The public respect honesty . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

27 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

will be a cost which is as yet undefined and unquantifiable. 

spoken like a politician  

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I'm marginally less of a ********

 

Catholic?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Catholic?

 

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

Catholic?

Rumbled ☹️

 

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The public respect honesty . 

They're going to get a shock when he's asked about Brexit then 😂

[BlueRiver]

19 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

You're determined to make that false equivalence stick. You've had 4 or 5 goes at it now. 

You and I both know that Keith doesn't have a Brexit position. He's hoping it'll all go away so he can get a shot at the helm of the Titanic before it dips below the waves forever. 

 

Nope. Keir Starmer's position as far as I can tell right now is that Brexit is the course of action. You're unhappy with that for economic reasons. It stands to reason you would be willing to apply the same logic to your own economic harikari. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They're going to get a shock when he's asked about Brexit then 😂

I said they respect honesty . It doesn't mean they get it  

[BlueRiver]

12 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Labour are hopeless and he knows it! 

 

The British/UK Establishment is corrupt to the absolute core. The Scottish Establishment is infested by undermining, childish, foolish morons like Ross, Sarwar, Kerr, Cole-Hamilton and their ilk. That part of the establishment are not only poor politicians but come across as awful people. Wouldn't trust a unionist politician in any capacity that has the responsibility to represent Scotland!

 

Come on Roxy. To omit any SNP grandees from the Scottish establishment is disingenuous. To be the establishment you have to be in power no? 

[periodictabledancer]

49 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

👍👍👍 I am amazed at the cavalier attitude of some on this who readily dismiss the “ short term “ economic pain” of post Indy . They are the ones who never stop going on about how the Toaries have caused the current economic pain . So Indy pain ok ? Toarie pain no 

"Amazed" , well you will be if you're gonna post this kind of stuff. Independence comes with no guarantees and NS has acknowledged that. Brexit was predicted to be ,well , whatever you wanted it to be. The outright lies are well known now and any  benefits will be seen in decades from now , if ever. Brexit was never sold with a " no guarantees" outlook. In fact it's salesmen consistently told only of "sunlit uplands"  and unlimited opportunities. It has only diminished the UK. Independence is the opportunity for Scotland to do the very opposite. 

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, periodictabledancer said:

"Amazed" , well you will be if you're gonna post this kind of stuff. Independence comes with no guarantees and NS has acknowledged that. Brexit was predicted to be ,well , whatever you wanted it to be. The outright lies are well known now and any  benefits will be seen in decades from now , if ever. Brexit was never sold with a " no guarantees" outlook. In fact it's salesmen consistently told only of "sunlit uplands"  and unlimited opportunities. It has only diminished the UK. Independence is the opportunity for Scotland to do the very opposite. 

 

Those arguments regarding Brexit equally apply to Scottish independence. 

 

If you think your own brand of snake oil salesmen haven't been promising the world since 2014, you're asleep mate. 

 

In fact your last sentence does exactly what you're criticising the Brexit salesmen for doing! 

Edited February 7, 2023 by BlueRiver

[manaliveits105]

The Scottish electorate were lied to by the Indy movement in 2014 about many things 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Come on Roxy. To omit any SNP grandees from the Scottish establishment is disingenuous. To be the establishment you have to be in power no? 

Of course you do but my gripe is with those who undermine devolution. Have you seen unionist politicians and how they act in the Scottish Parliament? There are some really nasty opposition Msps! I stated earlier that the SNP have flaws but I don't trust any unionist politician when it comes to the SNHS, education, Scottish Water in fact any devolved department. 

 

I'd like full independence and take responsibility for everything and blame no one. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Of course you do but my gripe is with those who undermine devolution. Have you seen unionist politicians and how they act in the Scottish Parliament? There are some really nasty opposition Msps! I stated earlier that the SNP have flaws but I don't trust any unionist politician when it comes to the SNHS, education, Scottish Water in fact any devolved department. 

 

I'd like full independence and take responsibility for everything and blame no one. 

nd take responsibility for everything and blame no one. 

 

so what about the responsibility for those who didn't vote for Indy.  ? Do they have to suffer for years just so some can fulfil their Indy dream? 

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The Scottish electorate were lied to by the Indy movement in 2014 about many things 

Actually the better together guys were bang on.

 

They told us we'd be out of Europe, much poorer, be paying more for food and energy, wouldn't have freedom of movement.

 

They were bloody right about all of it. 

 

 

[periodictabledancer]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Actually the better together guys were bang on.

 

They told us we'd be out of Europe, much poorer, be paying more for food and energy, wouldn't have freedom of movement.

 

They were bloody right about all of it. 

 

 

👍

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Of course you do but my gripe is with those who undermine devolution. Have you seen unionist politicians and how they act in the Scottish Parliament? There are some really nasty opposition Msps! I stated earlier that the SNP have flaws but I don't trust any unionist politician when it comes to the SNHS, education, Scottish Water in fact any devolved department. 

 

I'd like full independence and take responsibility for everything and blame no one. 

 

Fair. I do think some of those politicians are reacting to the SNP's grandstanding though. In the earlier years of Holyrood I don't recall factions acting as they do now. 

 

I did mention earlier that there's a couple of posters that I enjoy chatting about all of this with on here and you were one I'd had in mind after previous back and forth. You're pretty good at acknowledging these grey areas rather than just glossing over them all. 

[periodictabledancer]

11 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Those arguments regarding Brexit equally apply to Scottish independence. 

 

If you think your own brand of snake oil salesmen haven't been promising the world since 2014, you're asleep mate. 

 

In fact your last sentence does exactly what you're criticising the Brexit salesmen for doing! 

They don't and I have explained why. 

But I can see from your use of language why you would have a problem acknowledging  that. 

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Actually the better together guys were bang on.

 

They told us we'd be out of Europe, much poorer, be paying more for food and energy, wouldn't have freedom of movement.

 

They were bloody right about all of it. 

 

 

 

You'd have voted for all of that in 2014 quite happily and are happy to do it again if given the chance. 

 

Unless you believe an Indy vote will provide an economic panacea? 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

They don't and I have explained why. 

But I can see from your use of language why you would have a problem acknowledging  that. 

Maybe he didn't agree with your reasons?

[BlueRiver]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

They don't and I have explained why. 

But I can see from your use of language why you would have a problem acknowledging  that. 

 

You've explained nothing. 

 

You might have rationalised it to yourself and your own band of merry followers but everything you said applies to those peddling Scottish independence as much as to those peddling Brexit. 

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

nd take responsibility for everything and blame no one. 

 

so what about the responsibility for those who didn't vote for Indy.  ? Do they have to suffer for years just so some can fulfil their Indy dream? 

I'm talking about if we were independent! Independence isn't a dream! It's normal like every country in the world. Is it a dream for Canadians, French, Germans, Spanish, Belgians etc, etc, etc?

 

We're suffering the consequences of not voting for it in 2014! 

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, BlueRiver said:

 

You'd have voted for all of that in 2014 quite happily and are happy to do it again if given the chance. 

 

Unless you believe an Indy vote will provide an economic panacea? 

😂

Your still going at that. Fair play to you. 

 

Now haven't we already all agreed that it won't be an economic panacea? 

 

Unless my keyboard isn't typing what I'm thinking it is?

[periodictabledancer]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Maybe he didn't agree with your reasons?

It's not his disagreement I'm commenting on. I wouldn't expect him to agree with me. 

[periodictabledancer]

Just now, BlueRiver said:

 

You've explained nothing. 

 

You might have rationalised it to yourself and your own band of merry followers but everything you said applies to those peddling Scottish independence as much as to those peddling Brexit. 

Good night bud. I'm not engaging with this kind of language. 

[BlueRiver]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

Good night bud. I'm not engaging with this kind of language. 

 

🤣🤣 this kind of language. You're a delicate little petal eh. 

 

Nighty night. 

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

😂

Your still going at that. Fair play to you. 

 

Now haven't we already all agreed that it won't be an economic panacea? 

 

Unless my keyboard isn't typing what I'm thinking it is?

 

Just wanting to be sure that you'd have voted for economic misery in 2014 and are happy to vote for it when given your next opportunity. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I'm talking about if we were independent! Independence isn't a dream! It's normal like every country in the world. Is it a dream for Canadians, French, Germans, Spanish, Belgians etc, etc, etc?

 

We're suffering the consequences of not voting for it in 2014! 

I voted yes in 2014 

[BlueRiver]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Maybe he didn't agree with your reasons?

 

My mind actually boggles. I said he was asleep and that a lot of the Indy campaign heads were snakeoil salesmen and he's away in the huff 🤣 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

🤣🤣 this kind of language. You're a delicate little petal eh. 

 

Nighty night. 

😃

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Fair. I do think some of those politicians are reacting to the SNP's grandstanding though. In the earlier years of Holyrood I don't recall factions acting as they do now. 

 

I did mention earlier that there's a couple of posters that I enjoy chatting about all of this with on here and you were one I'd had in mind after previous back and forth. You're pretty good at acknowledging these grey areas rather than just glossing over them all. 

Cheers BR. I'm not overly fussed about the "trans" stuff and the propaganda to nail the SNP. All the main parties(apart from the Tories I think) voted for the legislation. That's what gets my goat.  Parties who voted for it should be having a go at that backward institution called Westminster! The SNP had the backing of the parliament. 

[The Mighty Thor]

5 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Just wanting to be sure that you'd have voted for economic misery in 2014 and are happy to vote for it when given your next opportunity. 

I voted for independence in 2014.

 

The economic misery has been ongoing since 2010 but has really ramped up lately under the organised crime gang. 

 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

I voted yes in 2014 

I know you did JJJ. Don't you feel a bit let down and think we could've done things better? We could've been making different choices, choosing different governments, more responsibility, tailoring our needs, exploring possibilities, endless things to the betterment of the people. 

 

What we have now is atrocious! There's no way the Scottish people would've voted for what we have now. Unfortunately the English people decide our future.

[BlueRiver]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

I voted for independence in 2014.

 

The economic misery has been ongoing since 2010 but has really ramped up lately under the organised crime gang. 

 

 

 

 

So the answer to my question was yes. Cheers. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I know you did JJJ. Don't you feel a bit let down and think we could've done things better? We could've been making different choices, choosing different governments, more responsibility, tailoring our needs, exploring possibilities, endless things to the betterment of the people. 

 

What we have now is atrocious! There's no way the Scottish people would've voted for what we have now. Unfortunately the English people decide our future.

Yes thats why I voted Yes. For a better future . I was voting on an emotional level though. All very   " Braveheart" and not worried about the financial hit we all might have to take.  I feel differently now. Im less selfish. 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 minute ago, BlueRiver said:

 

So the answer to my question was yes. Cheers. 

SNP supporter voting for Independence? 

 

I'd have thought that was a leap you'd have managed. 

[The Mighty Thor]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes thats why I voted Yes. For a better future . I was voting on an emotional level though. All very   " Braveheart" and not worried about the financial hit we all might have to take.  I feel differently now. Im less selfish. 

Wait til you realise what's happened to your wealth znd living standards since 2010 and none of it has anything to do with your bete noir 😂

[BlueRiver]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

SNP supporter voting for Independence? 

 

I'd have thought that was a leap you'd have managed. 

 

I just wanted you to confirm that you would happily vote for further economic pain. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

11 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Wait til you realise what's happened to your wealth znd living standards since 2010 and none of it has anything to do with your bete noir 😂

" wealth" ...?  why do you think i was happy to vote yes in 2014.  

[Roxy Hearts]

10 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes thats why I voted Yes. For a better future . I was voting on an emotional level though. All very   " Braveheart" and not worried about the financial hit we all might have to take.  I feel differently now. Im less selfish. 

I've supported independence for decades and it isn’t for patriotic or emotional reasons. Braveheart is a good film though.

 

I'm not driven by the economic argument as just look at it very pragmatically. If other countries can do it, why can't we? I also think it's more democratically responsible to govern yourself. There'll be ups and downs like any economy but we'd be making the decisions.

 

At least the political sphere would be about what can Scotland do as a collective instead of having the insults and undermining. Each party would provide manifestos and detail their approach for what they think would be best for Scotland.

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I've supported independence for decades and it isn’t for patriotic or emotional reasons. Braveheart is a good film though.

 

I'm not driven by the economic argument as just look at it very pragmatically. If other countries can do it, why can't we? I also think it's more democratically responsible to govern yourself. There'll be ups and downs like any economy but we'd be making the decisions.

 

At least the political sphere would be about what can Scotland do as a collective instead of having the insults and undermining. Each party would provide manifestos and detail their approach for what they think would be best for Scotland.

Or, we could just take a step back and look at what being part of Westminsters enforced union has achieved in the last 25 years and be grateful. 

[Roxy Hearts]

8 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Or, we could just take a step back and look at what being part of Westminsters enforced union has achieved in the last 25 years and be grateful. 

Westminster consistently fails in nearly every aspect. I've never understood why people see what's happening on front of them and never seem to think, surely we could do better.

[OTT]

44 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yes thats why I voted Yes. For a better future . I was voting on an emotional level though. All very   " Braveheart" and not worried about the financial hit we all might have to take.  I feel differently now. Im less selfish. 

 

I'll preface my post by saying, I'm pro-Independence, but not a fan of Sturgeon at all. 

 

One thing that really riles me is that since the referendum we have lurched from one economic catastrophe to another under the conservatives. Brexit was literally described as 'an extraordinary act of economic self harm' and between them Liz Truss and Kwazi managed to essentially crash the economy in under a month. We have record food bank usage, there is a literal open air food kitchen under the largest city in Scotlands train station, energy bills are through the roof and the UK seems to heading towards a general strike. There is example, after example of the economic problems within the UK that the SNP should be highlighting every chance they get, building the pro-Independence economic argument one brick at a time. But they're not. Sturgeon has sat on her hands at a time where the Independence movement has been handed gift after gift from the most inept conservative government in living memory. Quite possibly in the history of the UK. Its astonishing. 

 

Worse than that, the economic illiteracy shown by the Sturgeon administration with this conflation of Independence and EU membership. An inescapable fact is that the rUK makes up 61% of Scottish exports, so the SNP's stance seems to be to advocate for joining a union with a pretty shit trade deal with the rUk... Salmond and Alba for all the ridicule they've faced, are about the only adults in the room as joining EFTA would give Scots the best of both worlds with free movement of people, and a free trade deal with the UK. Further still, rejoining the EU would take time that Scotlands economy wouldn't have. I believe it would take around 5 years to do, assuming we can obtain all necessary criteria which is ambitious to say the least. Whereas EFTA membership can be achieved in around 6 months. Key point here, is that trade with the rUK post Independence is going to be crucial to Scotlands economy, and EU membership doesn't seem to line up with that, regardless of how much more desirable being an EU member state would be as there are practical realities to consider, which I'm genuinely not sure have been. 

 

I've never felt so dejected with Independence. Salmond handed over a united Independence movement, and Brexit provided the golden ticket. But instead, Sturgeon has squandered it and poisoned the well with divisive nonsense like the GRA, ****ing up basic governance and perhaps worst of all, putting that speccy twat Harvey into government... 

Edited February 7, 2023 by OTT

[periodictabledancer]

15 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I'll preface my post by saying, I'm pro-Independence, but not a fan of Sturgeon at all. 

 

One thing that really riles me is that since the referendum we have lurched from one economic catastrophe to another under the conservatives. Brexit was literally described as 'an extraordinary act of economic self harm' and between them Liz Truss and Kwazi managed to essentially crash the economy in under a month. We have record food bank usage, there is a literal open air food kitchen under the largest city in Scotlands train station, energy bills are through the roof and the UK seems to heading towards a general strike. There is example, after example of the economic problems within the UK that the SNP should be highlighting every chance they get, building the pro-Independence economic argument one brick at a time. But they're not. Sturgeon has sat on her hands at a time where the Independence movement has been handed gift after gift from the most inept conservative government in living memory. Quite possibly in the history of the UK. Its astonishing. 

 

Worse than that, the economic illiteracy shown by the Sturgeon administration with this conflation of Independence and EU membership. An inescapable fact is that the rUK makes up 61% of Scottish exports, so the SNP's stance seems to be to advocate for joining a union with a pretty shit trade deal with the rUk... Salmond and Alba for all the ridicule they've faced, are about the only adults in the room as joining EFTA would give Scots the best of both worlds with free movement of people, and a free trade deal with the UK. Further still, rejoining the EU would take time that Scotlands economy wouldn't have. I believe it would take around 5 years to do, assuming we can obtain all necessary criteria which is ambitious to say the least. Whereas EFTA membership can be achieved in around 6 months. Key point here, is that trade with the rUK post Independence is going to be crucial to Scotlands economy, and EU membership doesn't seem to line up with that, regardless of how much more desirable being an EU member state would be as there are practical realities to consider, which I'm genuinely not sure have been. 

 

I've never felt so dejected with Independence. Salmond handed over a united Independence movement, and Brexit provided the golden ticket. But instead, Sturgeon has squandered it and poisoned the well with divisive nonsense like the GRA, ****ing up basic governance and perhaps worst of all, putting that speccy twat Harvey into government... 

So, NS has poisoned the well of independence.

Can we take step back and think about that 

We don't want independence because of one woman? Really ? 

You talk about GRA - again, independence is a no go because of bigots  and narrow minded

 ignoramuses ? 

 

You say indy is conflated with EU membership.  Take a look at Ireland. They saw what the EU means and weaned itself off the UK. Scotlands exports are strong and they will continue to be constrained by not being in the EU/SM/EFTA. 

 

Salmond didn't hand over anything - he failed. And he walked away. 

 

 

 

 

[OTT]

Just now, periodictabledancer said:

So, NS has poisoned the well of independence.

Can we take step back and think about that 

We don't want independence because of one woman? Really ? 

You talk about GRA - again, independence is a no go because of bigots  and narrow minded

 ignoramuses ? 

 

You say indy is conflated with EU membership.  Take a look at Ireland. They saw what the EU means and weaned itself off the UK. Scotlands exports are strong and they will continue to be constrained by not being in the EU/SM/EFTA. 

 

Salmond didn't hand over anything - he failed. And he walked away. 

 

 

 

 

 

In 8 years she's gained about 2% and I'm not even sure that can be attributed to her so much as the failings of the UK. 

 

On the GRA, My understanding is about 60% of people polled do not support it. That impacts on Independence regardless of if you agree with it or not. Controversial policies pushed through despite the party not even being united on it are a recipe for disaster. 

 

Ireland isn't Scotland. There was an interesting documentary on the development of the Irish economy on Youtube, covering its departure from the UK into what it is today. Anyway, whilst Ireland is a good bench mark for success outwith the UK, Ireland isn't Scotland and the challenges we would face are different. I don't see the value in trying to downplay that. 

 

No, Salmond handed over a united Independence movement having spent 30 plus years bringing Independence into the mainstream, taking it from 29% up to 45% at the time he stepped back. The result in 2014 paved the way for the landslide election that followed in 2015. I'm not sure why you're trying to ignore his contributions towards the Independence movement.

[JudyJudyJudy]

38 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I'll preface my post by saying, I'm pro-Independence, but not a fan of Sturgeon at all. 

 

One thing that really riles me is that since the referendum we have lurched from one economic catastrophe to another under the conservatives. Brexit was literally described as 'an extraordinary act of economic self harm' and between them Liz Truss and Kwazi managed to essentially crash the economy in under a month. We have record food bank usage, there is a literal open air food kitchen under the largest city in Scotlands train station, energy bills are through the roof and the UK seems to heading towards a general strike. There is example, after example of the economic problems within the UK that the SNP should be highlighting every chance they get, building the pro-Independence economic argument one brick at a time. But they're not. Sturgeon has sat on her hands at a time where the Independence movement has been handed gift after gift from the most inept conservative government in living memory. Quite possibly in the history of the UK. Its astonishing. 

 

Worse than that, the economic illiteracy shown by the Sturgeon administration with this conflation of Independence and EU membership. An inescapable fact is that the rUK makes up 61% of Scottish exports, so the SNP's stance seems to be to advocate for joining a union with a pretty shit trade deal with the rUk... Salmond and Alba for all the ridicule they've faced, are about the only adults in the room as joining EFTA would give Scots the best of both worlds with free movement of people, and a free trade deal with the UK. Further still, rejoining the EU would take time that Scotlands economy wouldn't have. I believe it would take around 5 years to do, assuming we can obtain all necessary criteria which is ambitious to say the least. Whereas EFTA membership can be achieved in around 6 months. Key point here, is that trade with the rUK post Independence is going to be crucial to Scotlands economy, and EU membership doesn't seem to line up with that, regardless of how much more desirable being an EU member state would be as there are practical realities to consider, which I'm genuinely not sure have been. 

 

I've never felt so dejected with Independence. Salmond handed over a united Independence movement, and Brexit provided the golden ticket. But instead, Sturgeon has squandered it and poisoned the well with divisive nonsense like the GRA, ****ing up basic governance and perhaps worst of all, putting that speccy twat Harvey into government... 

excellent posting 👍

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

In 8 years she's gained about 2% and I'm not even sure that can be attributed to her so much as the failings of the UK. 

 

On the GRA, My understanding is about 60% of people polled do not support it. That impacts on Independence regardless of if you agree with it or not. Controversial policies pushed through despite the party not even being united on it are a recipe for disaster. 

 

Ireland isn't Scotland. There was an interesting documentary on the development of the Irish economy on Youtube, covering its departure from the UK into what it is today. Anyway, whilst Ireland is a good bench mark for success outwith the UK, Ireland isn't Scotland and the challenges we would face are different. I don't see the value in trying to downplay that. 

 

No, Salmond handed over a united Independence movement having spent 30 plus years bringing Independence into the mainstream, taking it from 29% up to 45% at the time he stepped back. The result in 2014 paved the way for the landslide election that followed in 2015. I'm not sure why you're trying to ignore his contributions towards the Independence movement.

All very good points.

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, OTT said:

No, Salmond handed over a united Independence movement having spent 30 plus years bringing Independence into the mainstream, taking it from 29% up to 45% at the time he stepped back. The result in 2014 paved the way for the landslide election that followed in 2015. I'm not sure why you're trying to ignore his contributions towards the Independence movement.

He certainly inspired me to vote for Indy . The SNP have struggled since . 

[periodictabledancer]

2 hours ago, BlueRiver said:

 

My mind actually boggles. I said he was asleep and that a lot of the Indy campaign heads were snakeoil salesmen and he's away in the huff 🤣 

Yeah, your playground characterisations really won the day for you. 

Go you. 

 

🤣

[periodictabledancer]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

In 8 years she's gained about 2% and I'm not even sure that can be attributed to her so much as the failings of the UK. 

 

On the GRA, My understanding is about 60% of people polled do not support it. That impacts on Independence regardless of if you agree with it or not. Controversial policies pushed through despite the party not even being united on it are a recipe for disaster. 

 

Ireland isn't Scotland. There was an interesting documentary on the development of the Irish economy on Youtube, covering its departure from the UK into what it is today. Anyway, whilst Ireland is a good bench mark for success outwith the UK, Ireland isn't Scotland and the challenges we would face are different. I don't see the value in trying to downplay that. 

 

No, Salmond handed over a united Independence movement having spent 30 plus years bringing Independence into the mainstream, taking it from 29% up to 45% at the time he stepped back. The result in 2014 paved the way for the landslide election that followed in 2015. I'm not sure why you're trying to ignore his contributions towards the Independence movement.

GRA - seriously, if Scotland isn't voting "yes" because of that bill then shut down the whole indy argument.  Scotland is stuck in the stone age when it comes to this. The world is moving on and Scotland isn't. 

 

I never said Ireland was Scotland. But in your own words " Ireland is a good bench mark for success outwith the UK" . You then contradict your own words but offer nothing to substantiate it. 

I don't see any reason to differentiate Scotland (now) and Ireland (then) . The common theme is to break away from dependency on UK/England. Particularly so because England is failing the UK, it's failing as an economy and Scotland will suffer  accordingly. 

 

Re Salmond : I didn't ignore his contribution - you are deliberately misrepresenting me.

I said he failed. And he did.