TYNECASTLE STADIUM UPGRADE POTENTIAL - UEFA category 4 granted ( updated/merged )

[davemclaren]

2 hours ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

We should ascertain what the developers are doing with the old school site; they may be building next to the stand or they may not be allowed to

 

Hopefully we can buy a strip of that land at least, to decide what to do with later

Too late for that one would imagine. 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

Too late for that one would imagine. 

 

Well, we don't know Dave - there's no detail on the ROS site and I don't think you get much for your £3 if you buy a report; I'm not even sure you get anything more than you see for free

 

I think there's a good chance that they won't be permitted to build close to the south or west of the site because of the tanks; I don't know if any contamination around those areas is a factor either - does anybody?

 

If the developers want to make something back relatively quickly, bearing in mind they persuaded NBDC to part with it for an eye-watering £5M (Last sold in 2014 for £400-£500K, presumably by Romanov), then they may part with some of it, just enough to expand the Roseburn a good deal

 

That would keep our options open and everyone's happy

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

We should ascertain what the developers are doing with the old school site; they may be building next to the stand or they may not be allowed to

 

Hopefully we can buy a strip of that land at least, to decide what to do with later

 

The plans are published. Most of the existing school along the Roseburn that runs east-west will remain in tact and be converted into flats, but the very westernmost of the previously existing buildings and the shed behind it will be demolished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

5 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

The plans are published. Most of the existing school along the Roseburn that runs east-west will remain in tact and be converted into flats, but the very westernmost of the previously existing buildings and the shed behind it will be demolished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They're going to renovate those shit-heap buildings, then what? Convert student accommodation into flats after 5 years?

 

Plus put a Dung-Heap stinking farm in there too?

 

I knew thew were typical greedy b'stards, but that's designed to be unable to ever be removed

 

MG, that's just so h*bs!

[Ricardo Quaresma]

^^^^ I wonder if there's going to be another brand new poster signing up to quote that post and moan about it (again)

[Hungry hippo]

4 hours ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

They're going to renovate those shit-heap buildings, then what? Convert student accommodation into flats after 5 years?

 

Plus put a Dung-Heap stinking farm in there too?

 

I knew thew were typical greedy b'stards, but that's designed to be unable to ever be removed

 

MG, that's just so h*bs!

 

My understanding is that the area which could be used by Gorgie Farm (assuming it reopens) wouldn't be an actual farm so doubt it would be a stinking dung heap.

[Sarah O]

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

[OTT]

37 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

 

We had a few bad months of football that cost us 3rd and the fans didn't shy away. 

 

Since Budge and the foundation have taken over, attendances have basically only grown. Christ, during the Cathro/Levein debacle attendances still outpaced the Romanov years. 

 

Fact is we're a big club now and have big club problems 😎 and a waiting list that is over a 3rd of the capacity of our ground is a problem. 

 

Nobody is suggesting there is £30m+ hiding down the back of a coach (although who knows with the enigmatic Mr Anderson ). 

[johnking123]

43 minutes ago, Sarah O said:

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

Wrong side of bed?

[Craig_]

7 hours ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Well, we don't know Dave - there's no detail on the ROS site and I don't think you get much for your £3 if you buy a report; I'm not even sure you get anything more than you see for free

 

I think there's a good chance that they won't be permitted to build close to the south or west of the site because of the tanks; I don't know if any contamination around those areas is a factor either - does anybody?

 

If the developers want to make something back relatively quickly, bearing in mind they persuaded NBDC to part with it for an eye-watering £5M (Last sold in 2014 for £400-£500K, presumably by Romanov), then they may part with some of it, just enough to expand the Roseburn a good deal

 

That would keep our options open and everyone's happy

 

Bearing in mind that the distillery is producing a foodstuff for human consumption, there shouldn't be any contamination from the product itself, so the only sources will be cleaning products (caustic, nothing to worry about), run-off from vehicles (again pretty standard stuff), metals from the plant itself etc. So nothing hugely concerning. 

[Wonfiveone]

13 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

I would hope that all posts on this topic, unless stated otherwise, are all about taking guestimates. I've been probably more adamant about numbers but it would absolutely horrify me if any actual planning took place on the basis of what I was saying. With that said, I don't think there's much harm in bandying the numbers about (obviously I think this, or I wouldn't be doing it, but still . . .). We speculate about player transfers all the time and with the possible odd exception absolutely none of us have professional experience.

 

When we did the main stand, a quick survey of seat-only stands (i.e., not main stands so no offices, dressing rooms, training, etc. and also no luxury boxes) being built in the UK showed they all clustered around £1k/seat for the actual construction phase. I am dead certain that number has gone up significantly due to general inflation and supply chain issues but it's been hard to suss out because a lot of the stands constructed recently have either been small jobs for small clubs or giganto projects for major EPL clubs with dramatic architectural flourishes and over the top amenities. Still, if we were starting today, I feel like £2k/seat for the seating component is generous if the stand is single tier, and £2.5k/seat for a two-tier stand is probably the right general area.

 

NBDC has previously given the club a £1m figure for moving the ethanol tanks. Again, a 2.5x multiplier seems a generous estimate.

 

For land purchases, obviously it all depends on the seller but in this case it would be NBDC. Because of the COMAH restrictions it's not going to be hugely valuable and we can project its value somewhat from the sale of the old school, although the bit of the community pitch we would need has considerably more difficult access restrictions and less architectural interest, which is both a positive and a negative. The area needed would be slightly over a half acre. £1m would do it, I would think (see general estimate adjustment below).

 

For the kind of stand we've talked about—15-16k, two-tier replacement for the Wheatfield, I feel fairly confident in saying there's no way on earth that cost comes in under £30k, and the only way it's that low is if NBDC really does us a solid when it comes to the alcohol tanks and the land sale, and we manage to do something crazy like reuse the existing Wheatfield risers as an upper tier. Similarly, I would be well and truly shocked if the total cost came in over £75m, barring something like COMAH that didn't show up on any of the prior COMAH reports. (I've read the reports both for the scrapped 2008 stadium expansion and the main stand expansion, as well as the council development brief for the old high school). Simply put, if Aberdeen have gotten a recent ground-up estimate under £90m for an entirely new stand, there's no chance a single low frills stand should overshoot £75m.

 

Obviously that's an enormous range, but I think bracketing the cost like that can focus the mind. The message from that should be first, that it's a very large undertaking that we can't just kick off next year on a lark, but also that given a concerted fundraising, financing, and savings effort, it should be possible. And again, this is all in present day figures. We don't know what's going to happen to land or construction costs as supply chain kinks ease up but UK inflation continues to stay high.

 

I fully recognize your experience as a charter surveyor, and acknowledge I don't have that same direct professional experience, particularly on-site. My expertise is that I have an academic background in geography and planning and I've served as a volunteer director on multiple large construction projects and sat down in the details. Once again, I would be horrified if anyone took this for a professionally prepared opinion, but I stand by my rough guess estimates of £40-50m with all of the caveats and breadth of error expressed.

With all due respect the following are intended to be constructive observations on your post:

 

- this would be a uniquely bespoke project and as such any cost estimates prepared without the benefit of a detailed feasibility study would be dangerous speculative pound shop quantity surveying, in my professional opinion.

- it would be dangerous and wrong from a PI insurance point of view to use Pitroddie as a benchmark for this project without having the details of exactly what is included and more importantly excluded from both projects. 
- £1k/seat was a 1990s starting point rule of thumb based on the costs of the single storey basic shed type structures that the likes of Barr Construction were erecting at that time and as such are of no relevance to modern day requirements even allowing for inflation.

 

I hope this helps.

[Nobreath]

1 hour ago, Sarah O said:

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

 

Having heard this claim repeated a couple of times, I must admit that I don't believe it for a second, even though I consider myself to be one of the more more cautious supporters.

 

Now that we have a substantial Season Ticket waiting list, existing holders are much less inclined to take a break for a season or two. There will be a fear that by doing so might jeopardise their chance of returning to the club as a season ticket holder for a good few years.

 

 

[David McCaig]

2 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

Is the record waiting list not what we currently have... based on several utterly awful months of football?

[Thomaso]

16 hours ago, Bungalow Bill said:

Sorry I don’t. You could always email the ticket office, they are quick to reply. [email protected]

I’m 1305 on waiting list. 😩

Not sure what the turnover has been.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Thomaso

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, David McCaig said:

Is the record waiting list not what we currently have... based on several utterly awful months of football?

I am just amazed at the length of the waiting list which is unheard of at Hearts, this inspite of throwing away group Euro football and having disappointing cup runs! 🤷‍♂️

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Nobreath said:

 

Having heard this claim repeated a couple of times, I must admit that I don't believe it for a second, even though I consider myself to be one of the more more cautious supporters.

 

Now that we have a substantial Season Ticket waiting list, existing holders are much less inclined to take a break for a season or two. There will be a fear that by doing so might jeopardise their chance of returning to the club as a season ticket holder for a good few years.

 

 

I gave up my ST of 30 years + due to covid and illness - jeez do I regret that.

Now I’m 1305 on the waiting list and as you say I think the turnover of ST holders will be low.

[kingantti1874]

16 hours ago, Thomaso said:

The new stand cost in the regional of £22m. That costs included -

1. Purchase of the plaza land.

2. Actual Stand area with fans seating.

3. The construction bolted on the front which included offices, shop, nursery, lounges, Skyline, etc.

4. Hybrid pitch.

Very rough split of £22m cost was -

1. £1m

2. £9m

3. £11m

4. £1m

 

So going by these rough estimates building a new Wheatfield stand (basic shell) double the size of Main Stand would be in the region of £22m + around 20% for inflation = £26m.

Add in say £10m to buy the land?

That brings the cost to around £36m

 

also includes replacement of plumbing and power across the whole stadium, the cost of dressing grooms in the wheat-filed and the office / shop under there . The TV’s, police box adjustment and the new floodlights.  
 

the £22m is the total spent on the ground I believe 

[Sooks]

3 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

 

Those days are gone . Our demand no longer fluctuates like that depending on form . Our ticket sales have been on the rise for the last few years and that has included some very poor spells . We are growing 

[OTT]

1 minute ago, Thomaso said:

I am just amazed at the length of the waiting list which is unheard of at Hearts, this inspite of throwing away group Euro football and having disappointing cup runs! 🤷‍♂️

 

I think we're a much bigger club than many of us even realise. Said "sleeping giant" before, and still stand by it. We're a club with massive potential that has been ran by rank amateurs for most of the modern era. Its not until Budge and her team came in that we started to get on track commercially and I think we're in an extremely strong position for ticket demand to justify an expansion. Maybe not tomorrow, but it needs to be on the boards agenda. That waiting list tells you the club has momentum behind it and it needs to be capitalised on IMHO ASAP. 

 

I'm absolutely thrilled we're at a point now where there is sufficient demand to have a semi-serious discussion about the stadium. The club is in such a good place, its incredible. What Ann Budge has done for this club is phenomenal. 

[Baxfee]

Whilst I love tynie, there’s absolutely no point in staying there if we can only increase capacity to 25k. We need to think and build big - 30k minimum is where we need to be. However, the so called green belt round Edinburgh is disappearing under houses - not sure where we could go 

[Hearts_fan]

6 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Spraying £30+million on a new Wheatfield is fantasy stuff. 

 

A few bad months of football and our waiting list will be non existent. 

That’s the spirit.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Hearts_fan

[hughesie27]

2 hours ago, Thomaso said:

I’m 1305 on waiting list. 😩

Not sure what the turnover has been.

I think i heard about 300 folk have been sold them from the list. See you in 2028.

[David McCaig]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I think we're a much bigger club than many of us even realise. Said "sleeping giant" before, and still stand by it. We're a club with massive potential that has been ran by rank amateurs for most of the modern era. Its not until Budge and her team came in that we started to get on track commercially and I think we're in an extremely strong position for ticket demand to justify an expansion. Maybe not tomorrow, but it needs to be on the boards agenda. That waiting list tells you the club has momentum behind it and it needs to be capitalised on IMHO ASAP. 

 

I'm absolutely thrilled we're at a point now where there is sufficient demand to have a semi-serious discussion about the stadium. The club is in such a good place, its incredible. What Ann Budge has done for this club is phenomenal. 

Good post, I often wonder if we lost a generation of active support during the dark years of the 70s and early 80s.  

 

Since 1985/1986 crowds have been on a broadly upward curve and now seems to be growing exponentially as the fans we have regained over the last 30 years bring their own kids to Tynecastle.

 

Ultimately Edinburgh is a big city and we are clearly the biggest club in the city.

[Sooks]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I think we're a much bigger club than many of us even realise. Said "sleeping giant" before, and still stand by it. We're a club with massive potential that has been ran by rank amateurs for most of the modern era. Its not until Budge and her team came in that we started to get on track commercially and I think we're in an extremely strong position for ticket demand to justify an expansion. Maybe not tomorrow, but it needs to be on the boards agenda. That waiting list tells you the club has momentum behind it and it needs to be capitalised on IMHO ASAP. 

 

I'm absolutely thrilled we're at a point now where there is sufficient demand to have a semi-serious discussion about the stadium. The club is in such a good place, its incredible. What Ann Budge has done for this club is phenomenal. 

 

Agree with all of this 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

5 hours ago, Wonfiveone said:

With all due respect the following are intended to be constructive observations on your post:

 

- this would be a uniquely bespoke project and as such any cost estimates prepared without the benefit of a detailed feasibility study would be dangerous speculative pound shop quantity surveying, in my professional opinion.

- it would be dangerous and wrong from a PI insurance point of view to use Pitroddie as a benchmark for this project without having the details of exactly what is included and more importantly excluded from both projects. 
- £1k/seat was a 1990s starting point rule of thumb based on the costs of the single storey basic shed type structures that the likes of Barr Construction were erecting at that time and as such are of no relevance to modern day requirements even allowing for inflation.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thanks for your very well considered response.

 

I accept the speculative nature of it but I don't understand what the danger is, provided this is all just "fag packet" estimates for discussion on a message board. If the current Hearts board actually read this and acted upon it without consulting a professional, I would literally be staggered.

 

On the last point, I have to question that £1k as a 1990s baseline.   I keep pointing to the East Stand at Elland Road as an example, and it's worth mentioning that in 1993 they built 17,000 seats and 25 luxury boxes for £5.5 million. Obviously a thousand and one things have changed since then but I think it was more of a late aughts baseline, based on the costs I've seen reported?

 

As @Thomaso has pointed out (and he was a subcontractor on the main stand build so knows whereof he speaks), the construction of the main stand seating and support for it cost roughly £1.3k/seat once all the main stand-specific costs were removed. So in the 20 years since the 90s the cost increased 30% even for a stand of the quality and comfort of the new main, which I'm sure we'd all be quite fine with. Above and beyond that, it was built under a very tight schedule and at the exact same site. Now acknowledging that those were by and large low inflation years and the intervening years have not been, I again say that for present day construction costs, £2k/seat is a generous estimate for purposes of discussion only, with the caveat that if we start talking about two tiers, things get more complicated very quickly.

 

I do want to circle back to what I see the point of all this numbers guessing, though. There are two points that I think get expressed on here that I object to. The first is, "it can't be done at Tynecastle, we're finished." To me I have yet to see an argument that makes a solid case for that. The second is, "we need to just get on with it," and I want to point out that while I think it's possible, it's not at all simple.

 

But football stands get built around the world all the time. We're a fast growing club in a fairly wealthy city and the hurdles we face at the site are tricky but hardly outrageous. This needs to be on our radar.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, OTT said:

 

I think we're a much bigger club than many of us even realise. Said "sleeping giant" before, and still stand by it. We're a club with massive potential that has been ran by rank amateurs for most of the modern era. Its not until Budge and her team came in that we started to get on track commercially and I think we're in an extremely strong position for ticket demand to justify an expansion. Maybe not tomorrow, but it needs to be on the boards agenda. That waiting list tells you the club has momentum behind it and it needs to be capitalised on IMHO ASAP. 

 

I'm absolutely thrilled we're at a point now where there is sufficient demand to have a semi-serious discussion about the stadium. The club is in such a good place, its incredible. What Ann Budge has done for this club is phenomenal. 

 

Exactly this.

 

This is a touchy subject, but while there are plenty of reasons for the OF dominance in Scotland, I think we have to look in the mirror a bit. With two clubs splitting support in the nation's largest city, it stands to reason that a challenge would come from a club in the nation's second largest city. But Hibs are Hibs and with a few bright spots (mostly Mercer and maybe 15 months under Vlad before things went completely off the rails), we've been owned and run by incompetents of all stripes. It should hardly be surprising that when we finally got fan ownership and competent club directors for an extended period, demand for tickets has skyrocketed.

 

We all moan about the revenue gap. If you've got the demand that we have, you close that gap with another 10k seats.

[Wonfiveone]

1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Thanks for your very well considered response.

 

I accept the speculative nature of it but I don't understand what the danger is, provided this is all just "fag packet" estimates for discussion on a message board. If the current Hearts board actually read this and acted upon it without consulting a professional, I would literally be staggered.

 

On the last point, I have to question that £1k as a 1990s baseline.   I keep pointing to the East Stand at Elland Road as an example, and it's worth mentioning that in 1993 they built 17,000 seats and 25 luxury boxes for £5.5 million. Obviously a thousand and one things have changed since then but I think it was more of a late aughts baseline, based on the costs I've seen reported?

 

As @Thomaso has pointed out (and he was a subcontractor on the main stand build so knows whereof he speaks), the construction of the main stand seating and support for it cost roughly £1.3k/seat once all the main stand-specific costs were removed. So in the 20 years since the 90s the cost increased 30% even for a stand of the quality and comfort of the new main, which I'm sure we'd all be quite fine with. Above and beyond that, it was built under a very tight schedule and at the exact same site. Now acknowledging that those were by and large low inflation years and the intervening years have not been, I again say that for present day construction costs, £2k/seat is a generous estimate for purposes of discussion only, with the caveat that if we start talking about two tiers, things get more complicated very quickly.

 

I do want to circle back to what I see the point of all this numbers guessing, though. There are two points that I think get expressed on here that I object to. The first is, "it can't be done at Tynecastle, we're finished." To me I have yet to see an argument that makes a solid case for that. The second is, "we need to just get on with it," and I want to point out that while I think it's possible, it's not at all simple.

 

But football stands get built around the world all the time. We're a fast growing club in a fairly wealthy city and the hurdles we face at the site are tricky but hardly outrageous. This needs to be on our radar.

Thank you in turn for your response. At the danger of prolonging a meaningless discussion on the cost per seat, the following might be of interest:

- the £1k cost was very much a 1990s figure. I worked for a PQS practice at that time who made a lot of money in fees from football stadia projects, e.g., Ibrox, Easter Road, David Murray’s Straiton proposals etc..We spent a lot of time building up a data base and used that figure as a stating point.

- re Elland Road without the detail of the quoted figures it is not certain what was included and what would have been legitimately reported separately for taxation and capital allowances purposes etc., or perhaps otherwise budgeted separately.

- re our main stand, it would be unusual for a separate trades contractor to have access to this cost information if it is based on final account figures. You may or may not be aware that the seats were separately budgeted and not part of the construction budget which, as you know, resulted in the clubs failure to order these timeously.

- in addition, the original cost plan was split into two sections, viz., the seated areas costs and the back of house areas costs. Exactly what was included in the seated areas stated figure would be less than clear especially if the basis was the cost plan figures. How exactly you would apportion the raking steel support members at the levels below down to foundation level would be open to considerable debate, hence a wide variation in cost.

This together with the fact that most of the cost of the expensive decking was missing from the cost plan due to what euphemistically can be described as an error calculation, would seriously distort the cost/ seat calculation and be further exacerbated by the inadequate brickwork, door and services allowances that should have been included in any calculation.

I will conclude by saying other that I am long enough in the tool to exercise caution when quoting historical costs without supporting back up, otherwise I agree with both your sentiment and content of your e-mails other than the points I have raised.  

[Disco Dave]

Keep reading about building a stand comparable with the one at Leeds. Even if we were to overcome the considerable costs and H&S issues, I would imagine the council would knock back planning on the simple basis of the amount of light being blocked for the residents of Wheatfield Street/Place.

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, Disco Dave said:

Keep reading about building a stand comparable with the one at Leeds. Even if we were to overcome the considerable costs and H&S issues, I would imagine the council would knock back planning on the simple basis of the amount of light being blocked for the residents of Wheatfield Street/Place.

It didn’t stop the Council granting permission for the Gorgie stand which certainly blocked light for residents in the Gorgie Road flats.

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, Disco Dave said:

Keep reading about building a stand comparable with the one at Leeds. Even if we were to overcome the considerable costs and H&S issues, I would imagine the council would knock back planning on the simple basis of the amount of light being blocked for the residents of Wheatfield Street/Place.

 

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/chelsea-settle-right-to-light-dispute-over-stamford-bridge-redevelopment/36706571.html

 

It seems its not an insurmountable issue. 

[Baldy61]

On 24/07/2023 at 19:38, Daveandal said:

Just had a wee look on one of their forums (Rosenborg). They aren't a happy bunch at the moment. Season sounds awful. Most think we will win but not all.  Small sample mind.

 

17 minutes ago, Wonfiveone said:

Thank you in turn for your response. At the danger of prolonging a meaningless discussion on the cost per seat, the following might be of interest:

- the £1k cost was very much a 1990s figure. I worked for a PQS practice at that time who made a lot of money in fees from football stadia projects, e.g., Ibrox, Easter Road, David Murray’s Straiton proposals etc..We spent a lot of time building up a data base and used that figure as a stating point.

- re Elland Road without the detail of the quoted figures it is not certain what was included and what would have been legitimately reported separately for taxation and capital allowances purposes etc., or perhaps otherwise budgeted separately.

- re our main stand, it would be unusual for a separate trades contractor to have access to this cost information if it is based on final account figures. You may or may not be aware that the seats were separately budgeted and not part of the construction budget which, as you know, resulted in the clubs failure to order these timeously.

- in addition, the original cost plan was split into two sections, viz., the seated areas costs and the back of house areas costs. Exactly what was included in the seated areas stated figure would be less than clear especially if the basis was the cost plan figures. How exactly you would apportion the raking steel support members at the levels below down to foundation level would be open to considerable debate, hence a wide variation in cost.

This together with the fact that most of the cost of the expensive decking was missing from the cost plan due to what euphemistically can be described as an error calculation, would seriously distort the cost/ seat calculation and be further exacerbated by the inadequate brickwork, door and services allowances that should have been included in any calculation.

I will conclude by saying other that I am long enough in the tool to exercise caution when quoting historical costs without supporting back up, otherwise I agree with both your sentiment and content of your e-mails other than the points I have raised.  

"Long enough in the tool" Show off. 

 

[Thomaso]

31 minutes ago, Wonfiveone said:

Thank you in turn for your response. At the danger of prolonging a meaningless discussion on the cost per seat, the following might be of interest:

- the £1k cost was very much a 1990s figure. I worked for a PQS practice at that time who made a lot of money in fees from football stadia projects, e.g., Ibrox, Easter Road, David Murray’s Straiton proposals etc..We spent a lot of time building up a data base and used that figure as a stating point.

- re Elland Road without the detail of the quoted figures it is not certain what was included and what would have been legitimately reported separately for taxation and capital allowances purposes etc., or perhaps otherwise budgeted separately.

- re our main stand, it would be unusual for a separate trades contractor to have access to this cost information if it is based on final account figures. You may or may not be aware that the seats were separately budgeted and not part of the construction budget which, as you know, resulted in the clubs failure to order these timeously.

- in addition, the original cost plan was split into two sections, viz., the seated areas costs and the back of house areas costs. Exactly what was included in the seated areas stated figure would be less than clear especially if the basis was the cost plan figures. How exactly you would apportion the raking steel support members at the levels below down to foundation level would be open to considerable debate, hence a wide variation in cost.

This together with the fact that most of the cost of the expensive decking was missing from the cost plan due to what euphemistically can be described as an error calculation, would seriously distort the cost/ seat calculation and be further exacerbated by the inadequate brickwork, door and services allowances that should have been included in any calculation.

I will conclude by saying other that I am long enough in the tool to exercise caution when quoting historical costs without supporting back up, otherwise I agree with both your sentiment and content of your e-mails other than the points I have raised.  

Some interesting points you make.

With regards to the seats they were not seperately budgeted for, the cost for these was allegedly included in the Architects/PQS budget of £12m + £1m contingency that was put in front of Ann Budge - I know this as I was at the design/cost meeting when it was tabled. For the record I expressed my concern at the low cost plan.

Subsequently at a later construction meeting the Project Manager asked Scott Gardiner if the seats were on order. He said they were - they weren’t - hence why Scott was removed from his position by Ann Budge.

You are correct regarding the decking. The original cost plan allowed for concrete decking however it was discovered this would be too heavy for the steel structure - hence the need to go out to the far East to purchase expensive lightweight composite decking.

I am sure painful lessons were learned at Hearts and I’m sure any cost plan for a new Wheatfield stand will be checked and double checked for realism and accuracy.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Thomaso

[Wonfiveone]

29 minutes ago, Baldy61 said:

 

"Long enough in the tool" Show off. 

 

Autocorrect confirming the fact that I can be a big dick on occasions, perhaps.

[Baldy61]

9 minutes ago, Wonfiveone said:

Autocorrect confirming the fact that I can be a big dick on occasions, perhaps.

🤭

[Wonfiveone]

26 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Some interesting points you make.

With regards to the seats they were not seperately budgeted for, the cost for these was allegedly included in the Architects/PQS budget of £12m + £1m contingency that was put in front of Ann Budge - I know this as I was at the design/cost meeting when it was tabled. For the record I expressed my concern at the low cost plan.

Subsequently at a later construction meeting the Project Manager asked Scott Gardiner if the seats were on order. He said they were - they weren’t - hence why Scott was removed from his position by Ann Budge.

You are correct regarding the decking. The original cost plan allowed for concrete decking however it was discovered this would be too heavy for the steel structure - hence the need to go out to the far East to purchase expensive lightweight composite decking.

I am sure painful lessons were learned at Hearts and I’m sure any cost plan for a new Wheatfield stand will be checked and double checked for realism and accuracy.

Yes, I stand corrected regarding the seats. If I remember correctly there was a double whammy regarding the decking not only the change in material but also a massive under measure of the actual area.

The other item that I forgot to mention was the fact that there was no allowance for the piling required. A proportion of which cost should have been included in any cost per seat calculation.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

54 minutes ago, Wonfiveone said:

Autocorrect confirming the fact that I can be a big dick on occasions, perhaps.

Well played.

 

Cheers for your response, and thank you for sharing your expertise.

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Wonfiveone said:

Yes, I stand corrected regarding the seats. If I remember correctly there was a double whammy regarding the decking not only the change in material but also a massive under measure of the actual area.

The other item that I forgot to mention was the fact that there was no allowance for the piling required. A proportion of which cost should have been included in any cost per seat calculation.

Yes it was not the finest hour for the Architect and PQS.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

2 hours ago, Disco Dave said:

Keep reading about building a stand comparable with the one at Leeds. Even if we were to overcome the considerable costs and H&S issues, I would imagine the council would knock back planning on the simple basis of the amount of light being blocked for the residents of Wheatfield Street/Place.

 

I already posted on this:

 

On 23/06/2023 at 00:38, Ricardo Quaresma said:

From what? The summer sun won't be high enough in the sky for the New Wheatfield to block light to Wheatfield place or Wheatfield street

 

By the time it is high enough it's going to be in the south sky, shedding it's light down Wheatfield street

[Ricardo Quaresma]

10 hours ago, Craig_ said:

Bearing in mind that the distillery is producing a foodstuff for human consumption, there shouldn't be any contamination from the product itself, so the only sources will be cleaning products (caustic, nothing to worry about), run-off from vehicles (again pretty standard stuff), metals from the plant itself etc. So nothing hugely concerning. 

 

👍

[Ricardo Quaresma]

12 hours ago, Hungry hippo said:

My understanding is that the area which could be used by Gorgie Farm (assuming it reopens) wouldn't be an actual farm so doubt it would be a stinking dung heap.

 

Ok, well, that makes me feel much better

[Ricardo Quaresma]

8 hours ago, OTT said:

I think we're a much bigger club than many of us even realise. Said "sleeping giant" before, and still stand by it. We're a club with massive potential that has been ran by rank amateurs for most of the modern era. Its not until Budge and her team came in that we started to get on track commercially and I think we're in an extremely strong position for ticket demand to justify an expansion. Maybe not tomorrow, but it needs to be on the boards agenda. That waiting list tells you the club has momentum behind it and it needs to be capitalised on IMHO ASAP. 

 

I'm absolutely thrilled we're at a point now where there is sufficient demand to have a semi-serious discussion about the stadium. The club is in such a good place, its incredible. What Ann Budge has done for this club is phenomenal. 

 

5 hours ago, Sooks said:

Agree with all of this 

 

+1

[Jambo-Fox]

I have a feeling that by 2030 the capacity of Tynecastle will be c.30,000!
And the design of this development / expansion will be such that it will easily & cost effectively facilitate a further capacity increase to 40,000 in the following decade (or sooner) triggered by constantly increasing demand!

♥️♥️♥️♥️

[Ricardo Quaresma]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Fox said:

I have a feeling that by 2030 the capacity of Tynecastle will be c.30,000!
And the design of this development / expansion will be such that it will easily & cost effectively facilitate a further capacity increase to 40,000 in the following decade (or sooner) triggered by constantly increasing demand!

♥️♥️♥️♥️

 

Acquiring land to the North would more than likely be the only way to get near 40,000

 

We'd have to get some of the site that's being worked on now, at the old Tynecastle School site

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

I have a feeling that by 2030 the capacity of Tynecastle will be c.30,000!
And the design of this development / expansion will be such that it will easily & cost effectively facilitate a further capacity increase to 40,000 in the following decade (or sooner) triggered by constantly increasing demand!

♥️♥️♥️♥️

 

As much as I'm a cheerleader for getting a new Wheatfield done and getting us to 30k, I think that's well and truly it at Tynecastle.

 

If we want bigger than that, I know it's taboo to say, but renting Murrayfield makes a lot more sense than another expansion to 40k. If we're really drawing 40k for matches, we'll start to decently fill it.

 

I think a 30k stadium some time in the 2030s would carry us through to the 2050s at least.

[Drylaw Hearts]

40,000……

 

🤣

 

 

[OTT]

13 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

40,000……

 

🤣

 

 

 

If you'd posted that we'd have a 7k waiting list within 3 years of Levein leaving you'd have got a similar reaction. 

 

Just because we're not there yet, doesn't mean we won't get there eventually!

[Wonfiveone]

13 hours ago, Thomaso said:

Yes it was not the finest hour for the Architect and PQS.

Agreed, as you know well the club has learned its lesson and we are now in good hands regarding present and future works.

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

11 minutes ago, Wonfiveone said:

Agreed, as you know well the club has learned its lesson and we are now in good hands regarding present and future works.

Once Hotel finished I believe there's plans to put corporate boxes up back of main stand 

[Sooks]

42 minutes ago, Drylaw Hearts said:

40,000……

 

🤣

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

If you'd posted that we'd have a 7k waiting list within 3 years of Levein leaving you'd have got a similar reaction. 

 

Just because we're not there yet, doesn't mean we won't get there eventually!

Yip . Was not that long ago people thought we would never get over ten thousand season tickets . Hearts cringe , it is a thing 

[johnking123]

Edinburgh is growing. Plus taking advantage of the massive tourist trade would be wise. Have family coming over from Canada next year and love to see a game. Had seen a Montreal impact game with them few years ago and would love to show them a game at Tynecastle. But its never going to happen because stadium isn't big enough.