TYNECASTLE STADIUM UPGRADE POTENTIAL - UEFA category 4 granted ( updated/merged )

[Ricardo Quaresma]

56 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

Found this one 😄

 

[johnking123]

1 hour ago, johnking123 said:

Found this one 😄

 

3 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

Would not like to trip from the top row!

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

I do see your point around Saughton and Sighthill, Councils don't have the money to support us with land acquisition or the HUGE construction costs, if Aberdeen are looking at north of £50m, then a new stadium in Edinburgh would cost much more. So much more, that I'd question if it would be cheaper to acquire the land around the stadium instead (e.g. the tenements on Gorgie road). All options seem too expensive, but that seems cheaper than the alternative and the stadium can be upgraded on a needs must basis, rather than all at once (which reduces immediate costs, and mitigates risk). Think also, further expansion beyond the Wheatfield is probably not a short or even medium term priority. IF we can get the capacity up to 28k, then the 22k interested in a season ticket get their season tickets, and we still have 3k for walk ups in the home end with away capacity returning to normal and part of the roseburn being for overflow. 

 

I have it on very good authority that Romanov was seeking to buy surrounding Tenements, not sure which direction in relation to the Stadium

 

Obviously the plan would've been to rent them out until equity was break-even, then demolish

[Ricardo Quaresma]

Just now, johnking123 said:

Would not like to trip from the top row!

 

Triple escalators, easy 😄

[OTT]

10 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

I have it on very good authority that Romanov was seeking to buy surrounding Tenements, not sure which direction in relation to the Stadium

 

Obviously the plan would've been to rent them out until equity was break-even, then demolish

 

Its not a bad idea, especially with short term lets/air bnb, plus can always buy and leave the tenants in them as a sweetener to sell (and rent it back to them) 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

One of the previous Main designs, only 10K, I think

 

[Mr Elwood P]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

Think the idea of moving into Murrayfield is equated with losing our home & identity. As you'll know that was the Piemans plan back in the early 00s and I can still remember the absolute rage in the stands, I don't think it will be something that will ever be well received. Beyond that, I don't think Murrayfield would ever feel like our home, as daft as it sounds the seats would be blue not maroon and all the decor would be SRU related. Beyond all that, Murrayfield is the biggest stadium in the country at 69k, earlier in the thread folk were twitchy over the idea of a few thousand unsold, 20-30k+ unsold wouldn't be something that many would like to entertain. Lastly, it wouldn't be ours, we'd be tenants so not able to take advantage of the 24/7 stadium which Budge seems to be moving us closer to (Hotel, Bar etc).  

 

For me, the immediate goal needs to be getting a meaningfully expanded Wheatfield. I don't care what the council MIGHT reject, go for 15k and fight them tooth and nail on every seat. Unlike with the main stand, I don't think we're under any external pressure to get it done, its simply the longer we leave it the more frustrated fans become. There isn't a nursery on that side which could landlock us, so we have the time to either work with or fight the council to get us something that makes a meaningful impact on our capacity. That will cater demand for the foreseeable, and should the need arise, further discussions can be had around the Gorgie stand and perhaps an expansion to the Main stand. 

 

I do see your point around Saughton and Sighthill, Councils don't have the money to support us with land acquisition or the HUGE construction costs, if Aberdeen are looking at north of £50m, then a new stadium in Edinburgh would cost much more. So much more, that I'd question if it would be cheaper to acquire the land around the stadium instead (e.g. the tenements on Gorgie road). All options seem too expensive, but that seems cheaper than the alternative and the stadium can be upgraded on a needs must basis, rather than all at once (which reduces immediate costs, and mitigates risk). Think also, further expansion beyond the Wheatfield is probably not a short or even medium term priority. IF we can get the capacity up to 28k, then the 22k interested in a season ticket get their season tickets, and we still have 3k for walk ups in the home end with away capacity returning to normal and part of the roseburn being for overflow. 

I reckon there are about 120 properties in that row. At £200k each that's going to be £24m before you even break ground.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Mr Elwood P

[Ricardo Quaresma]

From inside

 

[Benny Factor]

20 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

 

Would not like to trip from the top row!

Would need crampons just to get there in the first place!

[Ricardo Quaresma]

My favourite:

 

 

=

Edited July 29, 2023 by Ricardo Quaresma

[Ricardo Quaresma]

[Ricardo Quaresma]

 

-

Edited July 29, 2023 by Ricardo Quaresma

[Mr Elwood P]

7 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

-

Well, doesn't that look smart!

[OTT]

19 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

I reckon there are about 120 properties in that row. At £200k each that's going to be £24m before you even break ground.

 

Its that there are no good options type situation. Alternative is leave Tynecastle, which I don't think folk want to do. 

 

Thing is, that part only becomes necessary if we need to radically expand the Gorgie stand. Those flats could be bought up over a period of time and rented out or whatever in the interim to recoup some money. Short term lets over the fringe is a licence to print cash  But anyway, its not really an issue to address until long after we have a new Wheatfield stand IMO

[Mr Elwood P]

10 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Its that there are no good options type situation. Alternative is leave Tynecastle, which I don't think folk want to do. 

 

Thing is, that part only becomes necessary if we need to radically expand the Gorgie stand. Those flats could be bought up over a period of time and rented out or whatever in the interim to recoup some money. Short term lets over the fringe is a licence to print cash  But anyway, its not really an issue to address until long after we have a new Wheatfield stand IMO

 

It would be a bit mental to leave Tynecastle now after the investment in the new stand. I think we've made our bed and have to lie in it as best we can. Imperative that we increase capacity soon. We're currently turning away millions of pounds a season in ticket sales.

[Jambo-Fox]

Just build …. they WILL come ….

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

This pie in the sky stuff is lovely but we are never expanding Tynecastle beyond its current footprint. I'm content with that while we play in a league where our glass ceiling is so obvious.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

23 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

This pie in the sky stuff is lovely but we are never expanding Tynecastle beyond its current footprint. I'm content with that while we play in a league where our glass ceiling is so obvious.

 

So you don't regret emigrating ... great rationale

[Ricardo Quaresma]

^^^^ Just a wee jibe Geoff, but it's a matter of time before we expand, I won't bet you, but other people on here would

[cosanostra]

Has there ever been any suggestions from the club that expansion I'd possible while still financially achievable?

I've never seen anything like that.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

10 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

^^^^ Just a wee jibe Geoff, but it's a matter of time before we expand, I won't bet you, but other people on here would

Expanding Tynecastle beyond its footprint makes no economic sense at all.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

42 minutes ago, cosanostra said:

Has there ever been any suggestions from the club that expansion I'd possible while still financially achievable?

I've never seen anything like that.

 

41 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Expanding Tynecastle beyond its footprint makes no economic sense at all.

 

What about when the waiting list gets to 10,000? 20,000?

 

I'm off to bed now, nighty night 😄

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

7 minutes ago, Ricardo Quaresma said:

 

 

What about when the waiting list gets to 10,000? 20,000?

 

I'm off to bed now, nighty night 😄

Hope you aren't hungover in the morning...

 

(just a wee jibe)

[Watt-Zeefuik]

6 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Think the idea of moving into Murrayfield is equated with losing our home & identity. As you'll know that was the Piemans plan back in the early 00s and I can still remember the absolute rage in the stands, I don't think it will be something that will ever be well received. Beyond that, I don't think Murrayfield would ever feel like our home, as daft as it sounds the seats would be blue not maroon and all the decor would be SRU related. Beyond all that, Murrayfield is the biggest stadium in the country at 69k, earlier in the thread folk were twitchy over the idea of a few thousand unsold, 20-30k+ unsold wouldn't be something that many would like to entertain. Lastly, it wouldn't be ours, we'd be tenants so not able to take advantage of the 24/7 stadium which Budge seems to be moving us closer to (Hotel, Bar etc).  

 

For me, the immediate goal needs to be getting a meaningfully expanded Wheatfield. I don't care what the council MIGHT reject, go for 15k and fight them tooth and nail on every seat. Unlike with the main stand, I don't think we're under any external pressure to get it done, its simply the longer we leave it the more frustrated fans become. There isn't a nursery on that side which could landlock us, so we have the time to either work with or fight the council to get us something that makes a meaningful impact on our capacity. That will cater demand for the foreseeable, and should the need arise, further discussions can be had around the Gorgie stand and perhaps an expansion to the Main stand. 

 

I do see your point around Saughton and Sighthill, Councils don't have the money to support us with land acquisition or the HUGE construction costs, if Aberdeen are looking at north of £50m, then a new stadium in Edinburgh would cost much more. So much more, that I'd question if it would be cheaper to acquire the land around the stadium instead (e.g. the tenements on Gorgie road). All options seem too expensive, but that seems cheaper than the alternative and the stadium can be upgraded on a needs must basis, rather than all at once (which reduces immediate costs, and mitigates risk). Think also, further expansion beyond the Wheatfield is probably not a short or even medium term priority. IF we can get the capacity up to 28k, then the 22k interested in a season ticket get their season tickets, and we still have 3k for walk ups in the home end with away capacity returning to normal and part of the roseburn being for overflow. 

 

Last I heard Aberdeen were prepared to spend £85m to get a brand new 17k stadium. A brand new 30k stadium in Edinburgh would easily go north of £100m IMO.

 

As for Murrayfield, again, to me that's a "in 2050 SRU is ready to either massively renovate it or build a new one and we get to be equal partners" kind of thing. I'm not in favor of moving there now, just at a point when we simply can't fit any more into Tynecastle and we could have more than half the seats in the stadium sold as season tickets.

 

 

[Bad Religion]

Knock it down and start again. Would be easier. 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

4 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Hope you aren't hungover in the morning...

 

(just a wee jibe)

 

Nah, 1 big Stella

[Mr Elwood P]

5 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Expanding Tynecastle beyond its footprint makes no economic sense at all.

Current waiting list of 7,000, all buying a season ticket at £300, an extra £2.1m per season. That's before you factor in the millions of pounds we're losing from walk ups and away fans per season, as it stands.  The stadium is the glass ceiling.

[OTT]

4 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Last I heard Aberdeen were prepared to spend £85m to get a brand new 17k stadium. A brand new 30k stadium in Edinburgh would easily go north of £100m IMO.

 

As for Murrayfield, again, to me that's a "in 2050 SRU is ready to either massively renovate it or build a new one and we get to be equal partners" kind of thing. I'm not in favor of moving there now, just at a point when we simply can't fit any more into Tynecastle and we could have more than half the seats in the stadium sold as season tickets.

 

 

 

Yeah, I guess that further reinforces how much of a non-starter a new stadium would be!!  If the fag packet maths to buy the tenements is correct, then its the more economical option (or about as much as it can be if tens of millions need to be spent ).

 

Yeah, I got your point that its a future hypothetical. Just wanted to make the point that I don't think it would be well received largely due to the history there with the Pieman. Its an interesting idea, but as you say, likely decades away from even being a discussion!!  

[OTT]

19 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Current waiting list of 7,000, all buying a season ticket at £300, an extra £2.1m per season. That's before you factor in the millions of pounds we're losing from walk ups and away fans per season, as it stands.  The stadium is the glass ceiling.

 

Yeah, I don't really buy the "not economically viable" argument. It would make a material impact on our income and we're not being run for the benefit of the shareholders bottom line. Fans own the club, and fans are turning out in their droves to back the team, so many in fact, we can no longer accommodate all of them and have over a 3rd being locked out!!

 

To be in this position having not laid a glove on the OF is incredibly impressive and probably demonstrates the demand from fans isn't to win the league (although wouldn't say no!!! ) its to be competitive, qualify for Europe and do well in the cups. Do that, and the stadium will always be full - and the best part, doing that isn't overly ambitious, its entirely within our control. Its a great platform for growth. 

[kingantti1874]

Still believe the most viable option is to knock down both the wheatfield and the Gorgie and build a 15k L- shape stand in its place giving us 25k .  We could keep the inti costs down by doing it minimalist then later using to utilise  the space / facility. Still £30-£40m imo 

[Rockwell]

Has anyone actually looked into the chances of getting planning permission for any expansion of tynecastle

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Current waiting list of 7,000, all buying a season ticket at £300, an extra £2.1m per season. That's before you factor in the millions of pounds we're losing from walk ups and away fans per season, as it stands.  The stadium is the glass ceiling.

Let's say they all do so. We just replaced a stand on our own land for around £20m. To upgrade, we need to lose income in rebuild, buy land, buy materials (including getting seats shipped on time, natch). And that's to add 7,000 seats minimum. We are talking about a payback of a generation.

 

If we are going to have a bigger stadium, we would need to go greenfield and build a new stadium. No thanks.

[Mr Elwood P]

9 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Let's say they all do so. We just replaced a stand on our own land for around £20m. To upgrade, we need to lose income in rebuild, buy land, buy materials (including getting seats shipped on time, natch). And that's to add 7,000 seats minimum. We are talking about a payback of a generation.

 

If we are going to have a bigger stadium, we would need to go greenfield and build a new stadium. No thanks.

How much do we owe on the new main stand?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, Mr Elwood P said:

How much do we owe on the new main stand?

Why is that even relevant?

 

You are the one who brought up the extra 7,000 on a waiting list. The Main Stand barely added to our capacity and you are trying to add a bigger stand than the Wheatfield into the ground!

[Mr Elwood P]

36 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Why is that even relevant?

 

You are the one who brought up the extra 7,000 on a waiting list. The Main Stand barely added to our capacity and you are trying to add a bigger stand than the Wheatfield into the ground!

You're saying it will take a generation to pay off a bigger Wheatfield. I'm wondering how much we have left to pay on the Main Stand?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

You're saying it will take a generation to pay off a bigger Wheatfield. I'm wondering how much we have left to pay on the Main Stand?

Yes I am.

 

How much do you think it will cost to shoehorn 7,000 seats into Tynecastle?

[Mr Elwood P]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Yes I am.

 

How much do you think it will cost to shoehorn 7,000 seats into Tynecastle?

How much do we have left to pay? You can go first.

[johnking123]

Have to remember., when main stand was put forward.  We where two years out of administration.  Financial it was very tough still and built it in a rush because our main stand was on them verge of getting condemned.  A lot has changed since then!

[Ricardo Quaresma]

1 hour ago, kingantti1874 said:

Still believe the most viable option is to knock down both the wheatfield and the Gorgie and build a 15k L- shape stand in its place giving us 25k .  We could keep the inti costs down by doing it minimalist then later using to utilise  the space / facility. Still £30-£40m imo 

Would we be gaining 1 or 2 filled corners in this scenario? Because we can't obviously get any more capacity in the current Gorgie footprint, unless I'm missing something

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

15 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

How much do we have left to pay? You can go first.

I don't care if it is zero or something bigger. It's irrelevant.

 

Let's assume we have nothing left to pay though. Now you can answer the question.

[Mr Elwood P]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I don't care if it is zero or something bigger. It's irrelevant.

 

Let's assume we have nothing left to pay though. Now you can answer the question.

Of course it's relevant if it's zero and the new main stand was £20m we know we can pay that money back in that timescale. As @johnking123 says above we're in a far better position financially too. Even if it was £50m we wouldn't have to wait a generation to pay it back.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Mr Elwood P

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Of course it's relevant if it's zero and the new main stand was £20m we know we can pay that money back in that timescale. As @johnking123 says above we're in a car better position financially too. Even if it was £50m we wouldn't have to wait a generation to pay it back.

Whoosh!

 

The point is that a CAPACITY EXPANSION will need significantly more land to do so (leaving aside all the other shit that has been said about the neighbours in the past). Therefore, that is a significant additional pile of money before we even start building.

 

To get the magical 7,000 you are talking about would take extra tiers on two stands and probable remedial structural work on the other two given the "goalpost" nature of the current stands. With two stands out of action, that's a season playing elsewhere so add rent to that. Using your own figures that is a ridiculous amount of cost to add an additional £2.1m of revenue per annum. That's why I said a generation to payback.

[Mr Elwood P]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Whoosh!

 

The point is that a CAPACITY EXPANSION will need significantly more land to do so (leaving aside all the other shit that has been said about the neighbours in the past). Therefore, that is a significant additional pile of money before we even start building.

 

To get the magical 7,000 you are talking about would take extra tiers on two stands and probable remedial structural work on the other two given the "goalpost" nature of the current stands. With two stands out of action, that's a season playing elsewhere so add rent to that. Using your own figures that is a ridiculous amount of cost to add an additional £2.1m of revenue per annum. That's why I said a generation to payback.

Is £50m not significantly more money?we have 22,000 fans who are either season ticket holders or on the waiting list. We only have 8,000 FOH subs. This is an area we can look at increasing massively to part fund the new stand. We also appear to have a few wealthy individuals who don't mind chucking money at the club for infrastructure projects. Unless the academy or player trading improves massively, stadium expansion is the only avenue for true growth.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

10 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Is £50m not significantly more money?we have 22,000 fans who are either season ticket holders or on the waiting list. We only have 8,000 FOH subs. This is an area we can look at increasing massively to part fund the new stand. We also appear to have a few wealthy individuals who don't mind chucking money at the club for infrastructure projects. Unless the academy or player trading improves massively, stadium expansion is the only avenue for true growth.

Growth into what though? Unless European football grows significantly for us, the "product" on the park itself won't be significantly different.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

12 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Growth into what though? Unless European football grows significantly for us, the "product" on the park itself won't be significantly different.

 

I disagree, Geoff, although improvement will be accelerated with European money, there's plenty scope for improvement with our resources at the level they are; we've been paying back Ann Budge recently too, that'll soon be complete

 

Forgot to mention Hotel revenue too

 

-

Edited July 30, 2023 by Ricardo Quaresma

[Mr Elwood P]

13 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Growth into what though? Unless European football grows significantly for us, the "product" on the park itself won't be significantly different.

7,000-10,000 extra seats, an academy that produces talent and a successful player trading model would transform our club. We could be miles ahead of the 'rest' and actually compete with the Old Firm in one off games ..

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

7,000-10,000 extra seats, an academy that produces talent and a successful player trading model would transform our club. We could be miles ahead of the 'rest' and actually compete with the Old Firm in one off games ..

If we had an academy which actually produced talent then you might have a point. Our best youth development occurred before an Academy was even thought about.

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If we had an academy which actually produced talent then you might have a point. Our best youth development occurred before an Academy was even thought about.

Although he was part developed by Celtic I think Aaron Hickey could end up being our highest profile youth product. He's already been sold for one huge transfer fee. He could end up playing for a really top team in the future.

[Padrone della casa]

21 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Growth into what though? Unless European football grows significantly for us, the "product" on the park itself won't be significantly different.

At the danger of pissing people off, our European involvement depends as much on the success of the other Scottish clubs in Europe, particularly the ugly sisters. If they do earn coefficient points then we will slip down the country coefficient table and the extra games by finishing third we got last season will be no more.

[johnking123]

We can't build bigger in same food print. Would need the pitch and warehouses beside the pitch to make it possible. There are definitely hurdles.  But hopefully with time and effort,  plus some cash. We could get over them.