TYNECASTLE STADIUM UPGRADE POTENTIAL - UEFA category 4 granted ( updated/merged )

[OTT]

11 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

I know you don't want to, but you do. We have nowhere near the £30 million or so at least it would take.

 

I think its more a case of we can't afford to it all in one go, but broken down into smaller steps it is doable and the quicker the ball is moving on this, the quicker a new stand can be delivered. 

 

If we leave buying the pitch someone else could nip in and land lock us with more student flats, the price could increase more etc. likewise, if we don't bother getting the ball rolling on financing until fans are losing their shit at the board for a waiting list of 10k+ then we'll be at this same point of having a stadium redevelopment fund of £0.00 in 2/3/4 years time. 

 

The boards job is to plan ahead and manage the strategic direction of the club. A new Wheatfield is a long term goal so should be something they are looking at, especially in light of this growing waiting list. 

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I think its more a case of we can't afford to it all in one go, but broken down into smaller steps it is doable and the quicker the ball is moving on this, the quicker a new stand can be delivered. 

 

If we leave buying the pitch someone else could nip in and land lock us with more student flats, the price could increase more etc. likewise, if we don't bother getting the ball rolling on financing until fans are losing their shit at the board for a waiting list of 10k+ then we'll be at this same point of having a stadium redevelopment fund of £0.00 in 2/3/4 years time. 

 

The boards job is to plan ahead and manage the strategic direction of the club. A new Wheatfield is a long term goal so should be something they are looking at, especially in light of this growing waiting list. 

Interestingly, the Wheatfield is 30 years old next year. 

[Luckies1874]

8 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

That's what a mean. It's not going to happen for at least 15 years or so. 

 

The money for a project such as this is not going to be saved up over years. If this is something that at some point is seriously considered then the money is going to need to be put up by someone (possibly Anderson) and repaid. I have no expertise in this field so have no idea of the likelihood of this happening but it would be negligible in the extreme if McKinlay on one hand is throwing around numbers like "7000 on a waiting list" and on the other the club are doing nothing to explore options. The reality is that few of that "7000" are going to get the opportunity to buy ST's anytime soon, indeed my understanding is that only around 250 new people got ST this year so this log jam is going to remain. It would be beyond unambitious to simply shrug and say too bad. 

[kingantti1874]

21 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

That's what a mean. It's not going to happen for at least 15 years or so. 

Agreed. My point here is we should be doing a feasibility.  better to know now if tynecastle has a shelf life or whether we can continue to take steps forward 

[chrisyboy7]

41 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

We had nowhere near 21+ million for our main stand. This year we finish it. We had less money rolling in then too.

Nailed it

[calmac25]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Yeah, its not going to be cheap to do. Think others have highlighted its a terrible time to do construction too because of material costs. But, there is still absolutely no reason to hold back on getting the backend stuff done - planning financing, acquiring land etc. If we're pretty much on our own with financing, it makes sense to start this as early as possible so fans can contribute if they want, and other sources can be added to the pot. Finding £30m over 5/10 years is a lot easier than finding £30m over a couple of years/ on the fly. Essentially start now, so its easier later. 

 

I could be wrong, but did someone post further back about the back of the main stand being converted into boxes? Something about the back panelling being changed to glass ? To me, hospitality being contained within the main stand makes most sense, and can look at maximising capacity everywhere else. 

The guy doing the tour in April said to us that this is the plan to put in boxes like the new TV studio. 

 

I don't think this was ever in the plans so not sure how it's been managed for the TV studio 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

2 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

The guy doing the tour in April said to us that this is the plan to put in boxes like the new TV studio. 

 

I don't think this was ever in the plans so not sure how it's been managed for the TV studio 

A was on that stadium tour and can confirm that 

[johnking123]

Think there is a gap between skyline lounge and the stand. Enough for 6 or 7 boxes.

[kingantti1874]

Just now, johnking123 said:

Think there is a gap between skyline lounge and the stand. Enough for 6 or 7 boxes.

already planned. The metal screening is temporary

[johnking123]

5 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

already planned. The metal screening is temporary

That's good to know. Wonder how many people per box and how much. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

8 hours ago, Bungalow Bill said:

I’ve said it before. The club need to be looking at how they keep those on the waiting list engage, and also find a way to capitalise from it. I’d introduce a non-season ticket membership scheme. 

 

Yep. And give them priority on single game tickets, a Hearts TV subscription, a little bit of swag, and maybe discounts on women's game tickets.

 

3 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Yeah, its not going to be cheap to do. Think others have highlighted its a terrible time to do construction too because of material costs. But, there is still absolutely no reason to hold back on getting the backend stuff done - planning financing, acquiring land etc. If we're pretty much on our own with financing, it makes sense to start this as early as possible so fans can contribute if they want, and other sources can be added to the pot. Finding £30m over 5/10 years is a lot easier than finding £30m over a couple of years/ on the fly. Essentially start now, so its easier later. 

 

I could be wrong, but did someone post further back about the back of the main stand being converted into boxes? Something about the back panelling being changed to glass ? To me, hospitality being contained within the main stand makes most sense, and can look at maximising capacity everywhere else. 

 

I still say it will be £40-50m but I don't think that's beyond our reach if we plan well.

 

Also, to me a new Wheatfield would need to be 2-tier, and the space in between the tiers at the back of the lower stand is usually a good place for boxes.

 

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

People need to accept that we simply cannot afford to go buying land or building a new stand just now or anytime in the short to even medium term.

 

No. I've laid out a dozen times on here a basic financing structure that requires that we start setting aside a capital reserve fund now but isn't infeasible. Right now I'd say 10 years out but with a really good European campaign somewhere in there it could be shortened to 5.

[kingantti1874]

4 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

That's good to know. Wonder how many people per box and how much. 

no idea, Brian talked about it on the stadium tour.  Suppose that makes me ITK 🤣

[Bongo 1874]

54 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Interestingly, the Wheatfield is 30 years old next year. 

Do you know how much, each stand holds Dave?

[johnking123]

The wheatfield 5,900 Gorgie 3,300 roseburn 3,400 main 7,200 roughly 

[Bongo 1874]

16 minutes ago, johnking123 said:

The wheatfield 5,900 Gorgie 3,300 roseburn 3,400 main 7,200 roughly 

Thank-you. 

[Bongo 1874]

Get the ball rolling on plans and talks Ann and club.

 

And I'll do my best to get more supporters on that waiting list.

 

We are taking it to the next level,goodbye Aberdeen and Hibs 👋. 

[OTT]

1 hour ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Yep. And give them priority on single game tickets, a Hearts TV subscription, a little bit of swag, and maybe discounts on women's game tickets.

 

 

I still say it will be £40-50m but I don't think that's beyond our reach if we plan well.

 

Also, to me a new Wheatfield would need to be 2-tier, and the space in between the tiers at the back of the lower stand is usually a good place for boxes.

 

 

No. I've laid out a dozen times on here a basic financing structure that requires that we start setting aside a capital reserve fund now but isn't infeasible. Right now I'd say 10 years out but with a really good European campaign somewhere in there it could be shortened to 5.

 

Yeah, I've got no idea how much it would come in at. The main stand came in at £22m (or there abouts) but obviously its not just a case of throwing up a stand, land needs to be purchased, explosive stuff from the brewery needs to get moved (genuinely think they should be told to get that TF out of a residential area) and we will probably need to go through a long planning and appeals process to actually get permission. I just hope that we're not constrained by lighting etc and end up having to again compromise with what we want to do. We need a stand which makes a genuine impact on our capacity. If we're cut down below 15k it just leaves us catering for the the here and now rather than actually future proofing that part of the stadium. 

[Thomaso]

10 hours ago, Bungalow Bill said:

Surprised you’ve never had a call. I put my son on the waiting list in the middle of the season, and got called 2 weeks ago. Might be worth finding out where you are on the list. 

Cheers I will do! 👍

[johnking123]

27 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yeah, I've got no idea how much it would come in at. The main stand came in at £22m (or there abouts) but obviously its not just a case of throwing up a stand, land needs to be purchased, explosive stuff from the brewery needs to get moved (genuinely think they should be told to get that TF out of a residential area) and we will probably need to go through a long planning and appeals process to actually get permission. I just hope that we're not constrained by lighting etc and end up having to again compromise with what we want to do. We need a stand which makes a genuine impact on our capacity. If we're cut down below 15k it just leaves us catering for the the here and now rather than actually future proofing that part of the stadium. 

Main stand and other modifications will come in around 24-25 million if you add hotel and boxes .Will make that back quickly though over next few years.

[Thomaso]

29 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yeah, I've got no idea how much it would come in at. The main stand came in at £22m (or there abouts) but obviously its not just a case of throwing up a stand, land needs to be purchased, explosive stuff from the brewery needs to get moved (genuinely think they should be told to get that TF out of a residential area) and we will probably need to go through a long planning and appeals process to actually get permission. I just hope that we're not constrained by lighting etc and end up having to again compromise with what we want to do. We need a stand which makes a genuine impact on our capacity. If we're cut down below 15k it just leaves us catering for the the here and now rather than actually future proofing that part of the stadium. 

The new £22m main stand included dressing rooms, nursery, club shop, offices and hospitality suites - non of which would be essential in the first phase of a larger Wheatfield.

[Thomaso]

10 hours ago, Bungalow Bill said:

Surprised you’ve never had a call. I put my son on the waiting list in the middle of the season, and got called 2 weeks ago. Might be worth finding out where you are on the list. 

Bill any idea of telephone number I call to check my position on ST waiting list?

[OTT]

1 minute ago, Thomaso said:

The new £22m main stand included dressing rooms, nursery, club shop, offices and hospitality suites - non of which would be essential in the first phase of a larger Wheatfield.

 

Would be interesting to see roughly how much it would take to do. Obviously there would be the community pitch to acquire and those stupid vats to move, but yeah little need of all the extras. One poster is saying £30m another £40-50m. Suppose size dictates cost to a large degree. 

 

[Wonfiveone]

24 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yeah, I've got no idea how much it would come in at. The main stand came in at £22m (or there abouts) but obviously its not just a case of throwing up a stand, land needs to be purchased, explosive stuff from the brewery needs to get moved (genuinely think they should be told to get that TF out of a residential area) and we will probably need to go through a long planning and appeals process to actually get permission. I just hope that we're not constrained by lighting etc and end up having to again compromise with what we want to do. We need a stand which makes a genuine impact on our capacity. If we're cut down below 15k it just leaves us catering for the the here and now rather than actually future proofing that part of the stadium. 

Without the benefit of a properly prepared feasibility study prepared by experienced construction professionals, no one can produce a realistic estimate of the total cost of an increased capacity Wheatfield Stand, either on a present day or ten years time basis. I say this as a chartered quantity surveyor with more than fifty years experience including major football stadia and sporting arena. Gut feel tells me the figures being quoted are not in the correct ball park when all the likely costs are included. To give an example both the building cost and tender price indices show a more than 50% increase over the last ten years. No one that has posted on this topic so far has produced a realistic valuation of the land required to accommodate this extension. 
I appreciate that all the posters on this topic do so with the best of intentions but guys please leave the feasibility to the professionals. The club is being run on a sound commercial basis and will have learned their lessons from the main stand fiasco. 

[Thomaso]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Would be interesting to see roughly how much it would take to do. Obviously there would be the community pitch to acquire and those stupid vats to move, but yeah little need of all the extras. One poster is saying £30m another £40-50m. Suppose size dictates cost to a large degree. 

 

The new stand cost in the regional of £22m. That costs included -

1. Purchase of the plaza land.

2. Actual Stand area with fans seating.

3. The construction bolted on the front which included offices, shop, nursery, lounges, Skyline, etc.

4. Hybrid pitch.

Very rough split of £22m cost was -

1. £1m

2. £9m

3. £11m

4. £1m

 

So going by these rough estimates building a new Wheatfield stand (basic shell) double the size of Main Stand would be in the region of £22m + around 20% for inflation = £26m.

Add in say £10m to buy the land?

That brings the cost to around £36m

 

[Bungalow Bill]

21 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Bill any idea of telephone number I call to check my position on ST waiting list?

Sorry I don’t. You could always email the ticket office, they are quick to reply. [email protected]

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, Bungalow Bill said:

Sorry I don’t. You could always email the ticket office, they are quick to reply. [email protected]

Cheers mate

[Bungalow Bill]

13 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

The new stand cost in the regional of £22m. That costs included -

1. Purchase of the plaza land.

2. Actual Stand area with fans seating.

3. The construction bolted on the front which included offices, shop, nursery, lounges, Skyline, etc.

4. Hybrid pitch.

Very rough split of £22m cost was -

1. £1m

2. £9m

3. £11m

4. £1m

 

So going by these rough estimates building a new Wheatfield stand (basic shell) double the size of Main Stand would be in the region of £22m + around 20% for inflation = £26m.

Add in say £10m to buy the land?

That brings the cost to around £36m

 

My wife buys land for a living. I always ask her how much the land behind the Wheatfield would cost. Absolutely zip while those tanks are in place. 
 

The cost of removing the tanks would be passed on, she doesn’t think it’s worth anywhere near £10 million even if the tanks were removed. 
 

Her thoughts are there will be a fair amount of contamination on the site before you can build houses/flats. Her view is the margins are not there for flats. She thinks Hearts should go for conditional planning and then take it from there. 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Bungalow Bill

[sac]

6 minutes ago, Bungalow Bill said:

My wife buys land for a living. I always ask her how much the land behind the Wheatfield would cost. Absolutely zip while those tanks are in place. 
 

The cost of removing the tanks would be passed on, she doesn’t think it’s worth anywhere near £9 million even if the tanks were removed. 
 

Her thoughts are there will be a fair amount of contamination on the site before you can build houses/flats. Her view is the margins are not there for flats. She thinks Hearts should go for conditional planning and then take it from there. 

 

Would imagine the onus would be on the seller to decontaminate the site, or price of clean up factored into purchase of site.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

Cheers I will do! 👍

Hi, question for you re the main stand facade.

 

Is the glass heat soaked toughened glass and if so, is there a likliehood of breakages due to nickel sulphide inclusion?

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

21 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

The new stand cost in the regional of £22m. That costs included -

1. Purchase of the plaza land.

2. Actual Stand area with fans seating.

3. The construction bolted on the front which included offices, shop, nursery, lounges, Skyline, etc.

4. Hybrid pitch.

Very rough split of £22m cost was -

1. £1m

2. £9m

3. £11m

4. £1m

 

So going by these rough estimates building a new Wheatfield stand (basic shell) double the size of Main Stand would be in the region of £22m + around 20% for inflation = £26m.

Add in say £10m to buy the land?

That brings the cost to around £36m

 

Be interesting to see how much hotel cost once finished

[Bungalow Bill]

6 minutes ago, sac said:

Would imagine the onus would be on the seller to decontaminate the site, or price of clean up factored into purchase of site.

Any work required would be knocked off the gross price of the land. 

[sac]

1 minute ago, Bungalow Bill said:

Any work required would be knocked off the gross price of the land. 

Excellent 

[Bungalow Bill]

Just now, sac said:

Excellent 

My missus said if she was the distillery, she’d give the land to Hearts for a percentage of the ticket sales (for the new stand) for x number of years. 

[OTT]

Just now, Bungalow Bill said:

My missus said if she was the distillery, she’d give the land to Hearts for a percentage of the ticket sales (for the new stand) for x number of years. 

 

Wonder if they'd take naming rights instead?  

[sac]

3 minutes ago, Bungalow Bill said:

My missus said if she was the distillery, she’d give the land to Hearts for a percentage of the ticket sales (for the new stand) for x number of years. 

Hmmm, not sure if I like that idea, suppose it would depend on the numbers£££

[Bungalow Bill]

5 minutes ago, sac said:

Hmmm, not sure if I like that idea, suppose it would depend on the numbers£££

Bear in mind, this was a minute conversation which started with her rolling her eyes as I pressed her for a price!

[Jambo61]

1 minute ago, Bungalow Bill said:

Bear in mind, this was a minute conversation which started with her rolling her eyes as I pressed her for a price!

Still having to pay for it?

[Thomaso]

20 minutes ago, Black Swan said:

Hi, question for you re the main stand facade.

 

Is the glass heat soaked toughened glass and if so, is there a likliehood of breakages due to nickel sulphide inclusion?

It is laminated safety glass - no risk of nickel sulphide intrusions.

[Guest]

Just now, Thomaso said:

It is laminated safety glass - no risk of nickel sulphide intrusions.

👍

[Thomaso]

23 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Be interesting to see how much hotel cost once finished

Yes the hotel fit out will obviously be extra to the £22m I referred to.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

7 minutes ago, Wonfiveone said:

Without the benefit of a properly prepared feasibility study prepared by experienced construction professionals, no one can produce a realistic estimate of the total cost of an increased capacity Wheatfield Stand, either on a present day or ten years time basis. I say this as a chartered quantity surveyor with more than fifty years experience including major football stadia and sporting arena. Gut feel tells me the figures being quoted are not in the correct ball park when all the likely costs are included. To give an example both the building cost and tender price indices show a more than 50% increase over the last ten years. No one that has posted on this topic so far has produced a realistic valuation of the land required to accommodate this extension. 
I appreciate that all the posters on this topic do so with the best of intentions but guys please leave the feasibility to the professionals. The club is being run on a sound commercial basis and will have learned their lessons from the main stand fiasco. 

 

I would hope that all posts on this topic, unless stated otherwise, are all about taking guestimates. I've been probably more adamant about numbers but it would absolutely horrify me if any actual planning took place on the basis of what I was saying. With that said, I don't think there's much harm in bandying the numbers about (obviously I think this, or I wouldn't be doing it, but still . . .). We speculate about player transfers all the time and with the possible odd exception absolutely none of us have professional experience.

 

When we did the main stand, a quick survey of seat-only stands (i.e., not main stands so no offices, dressing rooms, training, etc. and also no luxury boxes) being built in the UK showed they all clustered around £1k/seat for the actual construction phase. I am dead certain that number has gone up significantly due to general inflation and supply chain issues but it's been hard to suss out because a lot of the stands constructed recently have either been small jobs for small clubs or giganto projects for major EPL clubs with dramatic architectural flourishes and over the top amenities. Still, if we were starting today, I feel like £2k/seat for the seating component is generous if the stand is single tier, and £2.5k/seat for a two-tier stand is probably the right general area.

 

NBDC has previously given the club a £1m figure for moving the ethanol tanks. Again, a 2.5x multiplier seems a generous estimate.

 

For land purchases, obviously it all depends on the seller but in this case it would be NBDC. Because of the COMAH restrictions it's not going to be hugely valuable and we can project its value somewhat from the sale of the old school, although the bit of the community pitch we would need has considerably more difficult access restrictions and less architectural interest, which is both a positive and a negative. The area needed would be slightly over a half acre. £1m would do it, I would think (see general estimate adjustment below).

 

For the kind of stand we've talked about—15-16k, two-tier replacement for the Wheatfield, I feel fairly confident in saying there's no way on earth that cost comes in under £30k, and the only way it's that low is if NBDC really does us a solid when it comes to the alcohol tanks and the land sale, and we manage to do something crazy like reuse the existing Wheatfield risers as an upper tier. Similarly, I would be well and truly shocked if the total cost came in over £75m, barring something like COMAH that didn't show up on any of the prior COMAH reports. (I've read the reports both for the scrapped 2008 stadium expansion and the main stand expansion, as well as the council development brief for the old high school). Simply put, if Aberdeen have gotten a recent ground-up estimate under £90m for an entirely new stand, there's no chance a single low frills stand should overshoot £75m.

 

Obviously that's an enormous range, but I think bracketing the cost like that can focus the mind. The message from that should be first, that it's a very large undertaking that we can't just kick off next year on a lark, but also that given a concerted fundraising, financing, and savings effort, it should be possible. And again, this is all in present day figures. We don't know what's going to happen to land or construction costs as supply chain kinks ease up but UK inflation continues to stay high.

 

I fully recognize your experience as a charter surveyor, and acknowledge I don't have that same direct professional experience, particularly on-site. My expertise is that I have an academic background in geography and planning and I've served as a volunteer director on multiple large construction projects and sat down in the details. Once again, I would be horrified if anyone took this for a professionally prepared opinion, but I stand by my rough guess estimates of £40-50m with all of the caveats and breadth of error expressed.

[Thomaso]

27 minutes ago, sac said:

Would imagine the onus would be on the seller to decontaminate the site, or price of clean up factored into purchase of site.

It can be sold on basis the buyer de-contaminates, obviously the sale value would be reduced.

[sac]

2 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

It can be sold on basis the buyer de-contaminates, obviously the sale value would be reduced.

👍

[Bungalow Bill]

11 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

It can be sold on basis the buyer de-contaminates, obviously the sale value would be reduced.

My missus said no buyer would agree to that as the costs are unknown. 

[trotter]

54 minutes ago, sac said:

Would imagine the onus would be on the seller to decontaminate the site, or price of clean up factored into purchase of site.

Correct. As per the Environmental Protection Act:

 

"The Environmental Protection Act states that the responsibility for cleaning up contaminated land is generally the person who caused the contamination. 

However, as in many cases, it may be difficult or impossible to identify the individuals or companies that caused it. Therefore, if the person responsible for the contamination cannot be identified, then the responsibility will fall to the current owner or occupier of the land."

 

However, if NBD were to foot the bill, then where is the incentive to sell? Better to just leave it empty. Most likely it would either be factored into the cost of the sale, or potentially some sort of split between the buyer and seller, most likely with a clause that indemnifies the seller from any future liabilities. 

[Thomaso]

22 minutes ago, Bungalow Bill said:

My missus said no buyer would agree to that as the costs are unknown. 

Fair enough

Edited July 27, 2023 by Thomaso

[sac]

4 minutes ago, trotter said:

Correct. As per the Environmental Protection Act:

 

"The Environmental Protection Act states that the responsibility for cleaning up contaminated land is generally the person who caused the contamination. 

However, as in many cases, it may be difficult or impossible to identify the individuals or companies that caused it. Therefore, if the person responsible for the contamination cannot be identified, then the responsibility will fall to the current owner or occupier of the land."

 

However, if NBD were to foot the bill, then where is the incentive to sell? Better to just leave it empty. Most likely it would either be factored into the cost of the sale, or potentially some sort of split between the buyer and seller, most likely with a clause that indemnifies the seller from any future liabilities. 

If everything is tanked, then I’m wondering if there would be much in the way of contamination? Need to get Erin Brockovich on the case, mind you she might find the ground water in Gorgie is the reason for so many KB arseholes. Disclaimer, I only drank beer when living there😉

[Padrona della casa]

20 minutes ago, sac said:

If everything is tanked, then I’m wondering if there would be much in the way of contamination? Need to get Erin Brockovich on the case, mind you she might find the ground water in Gorgie is the reason for so many KB arseholes. Disclaimer, I only drank beer when living there😉

From past experience any likely contamination would most likely originate from the past uses of the site rather than its current use. This is relatively easy to ascertain from old maps etc.

[sac]

5 minutes ago, Padrona della casa said:

From past experience any likely contamination would most likely originate from the past uses of the site rather than its current use. This is relatively easy to ascertain from old maps etc.

According to NBD’s website they’ve been on that site or thereabouts since 1885 and production started in 1887.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

7 hours ago, hughesie27 said:

I know you don't want to, but you do. We have nowhere near the £30 million or so at least it would take.

 

We should ascertain what the developers are doing with the old school site; they may be building next to the stand or they may not be allowed to

 

Hopefully we can buy a strip of that land at least, to decide what to do with later