Afghanistan

[Governor Tarkin]

2 hours ago, jonesy said:

Don't start on the Priti chat, you'll set off @Governor Tarkin!

 

Just to play devil's advocate, if these people have failed asylum tests, then they may well represent a danger to the country.

 

Patel.

 

Oh, and don't go letting the harsh realities of a situation get in the way of a good anti Britain/West/white folk, whinge.

[Cade]

USA: "We call upon the Taliban to uphold international law and to ensure that humanitarian help can get into the nation to help the people of Afghanistan"

Also USA: "We're not recognising the Taliban government and will be raising sanctions and embargoes"

 

Well, do you want to help ordinary Afghans or not? Make yer mind up.

 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Hundreds of Afghan army troops have fled to Uzbekistan, taking 20-odd aircraft and 20-odd helicopters with them.

 

 

 

Quite right. 

 

21 minutes ago, Cade said:

USA: "We call upon the Taliban to uphold international law and to ensure that humanitarian help can get into the nation to help the people of Afghanistan"

Also USA: "We're not recognising the Taliban government and will be raising sanctions and embargoes"

 

Well, do you want to help ordinary Afghans or not? Make yer mind up.

 

 

 

Come on, Cade, you know that what is said in public and what is going on behind the scenes bear very little resemblance.

All sorts of diplomatic cogs will be turning despite any posturing on either side. 

 

What we're witnessing right now is the result of appalling strategic failure.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Governor Tarkin

[Governor Tarkin]

4 minutes ago, jonesy said:

"Deport me, Priti, deport me!"

 

[redjambo]

8 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

What we're witnessing right now is the result of appalling strategic failure.

 

 

I'm not sure it is, Governor. I think the US may have known exactly what would happen when they withdrew. Their idea of the precise timing of events may have been out though.

 

On another point, it might be fun and games when the Taliban ask for those helicopters and aeroplanes back from the Uzbekis. Could be a wee bit of a scuffle.

[Beni]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Sorry but "worst humiliation since Suez" is comparing them as examples of humiliations. And in the case of the UK they are not comparable.

Worst humiliation for the USA since Vietnam is more in line with comparing humiliations against a benchmark of comparable national humiliation.

 

No need to apologise, I'll have one last shot at explaining your misunderstanding to you. 😉

 

Here's an example.

If it was a record breaking 40 degrees centigrade last Tuesday, then 15 degrees for the rest of the week until today when it was 20°, someone saying "this is the warmest day since Tuesday" isn't claiming that 20° and 40° are comparable temperatures.

 

Literally nobody has said the exit from Afghanistan is comparable to Suez, that only happened in your head.

[Governor Tarkin]

1 minute ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm not sure it is, Governor. I think the US may have known exactly what would happen when they withdrew. Their idea of the precise timing of events may have been out though.

 

On another point, it might be fun and games when the Taliban ask for those helicopters and aeroplanes back from the Uzbekis. Could be a wee bit of a scuffle.

 

America undoubtedly did, but that's what you get when governments and competing agencies interests change. The global threat to the West has also shifted further East. The failure was developing a clear and cohesive strategy from the off and having the minerals and wherewithal to see it all through. Although you can't see it all through, because the job is never done.

Picking your favoured warlords and chucking money and resources at them has seldom led to long term stability in the past, and it hasn't here. What we've seen over the past 20 years (can't ****ing believe it's been 20 years) is an absolute disgrace. 

 

I say this despite many good people doing untold good work in the face of terrible odds. 

If I was a religious man I'd be praying for the people of Afghanistan (once again). They are about to eat each other.

Pity the neighbours too.

 

[Sharpie]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm not sure it is, Governor. I think the US may have known exactly what would happen when they withdrew. Their idea of the precise timing of events may have been out though.

 

On another point, it might be fun and games when the Taliban ask for those helicopters and aeroplanes back from the Uzbekis. Could be a wee bit of a scuffle.

Watched a former government official on this mornings news, he seemed to think Biden when he said the things such as the Afghanistan army could look after things he was repeating what he was being told, that leads to troubling speculation for the likes of me, was he being deliberately misled, is U.S. intelligence so inept they had no idea the abilities or not of the army, did on field commanders not give an appraisal of the countries army's abilities, this was not a short term flair up, this was a twenty year active war, the fact is a senior official in any other position making such an ill informed  action would either voluntarily resign or be asked to. Biden will avoid this for a number of reasons, he has no Deputy immediately ready to take the position, and Trump acolytes would push to have Trump replace him.

[Cade]

Head of the Taliban was released from a Pakistani jail three years ago as part of Trump's deal with the Taliban.

 

He's on his way up from Doha to occupy the Presidential Palace.

 

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

America undoubtedly did, but that's what you get when governments and competing agencies interests change. The global threat to the West has also shifted further East. The failure was developing a clear and cohesive strategy from the off and having the minerals and wherewithal to see it all through. Although you can't see it all through, because the job is never done.

Picking your favoured warlords and chucking money and resources at them has seldom led to long term stability in the past, and it hasn't here. What we've seen over the past 20 years (can't ****ing believe it's been 20 years) is an absolute disgrace. 

 

I say this despite many good people doing untold good work in the face of terrible odds. 

If I was a religious man I'd be praying for the people of Afghanistan (once again). They are about to eat each other.

Pity the neighbours too.

 

Good analysis, imo, Governor.

[Savage Vince]

54 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Patel.

 

Oh, and don't go letting the harsh realities of a situation get in the way of a good anti Britain/West/white folk, whinge.

 

We need more anti Britain/West/White folk whinges, imo. 

[Savage Vince]

11 minutes ago, Beni said:

 

No need to apologise, I'll have one last shot at explaining your misunderstanding to you. 😉

 

Here's an example.

If it was a record breaking 40 degrees centigrade last Tuesday, then 15 degrees for the rest of the week until today when it was 20°, someone saying "this is the warmest day since Tuesday" isn't claiming that 20° and 40° are comparable temperatures.

 

Literally nobody has said the exit from Afghanistan is comparable to Suez, that only happened in your head.

 

Beautiful 😊

[Governor Tarkin]

5 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

We need more anti Britain/West/White folk whinges, imo. 

 

Bash on. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

[muldoon74]

8 hours ago, pablo said:

 

 

I'll not show the one of the plane in the air with what appears to be someone falling from it.

I've seen that one, does indeed show someone falling off... 

 

Question though... 

 

They all appear to be men/young men of fighting age, can't actually pick any women or children out in the crowds, yet they'd (it would appear) rather die fleeing their country than stay and fight for it & their families? 

[AlimOzturk]

9 minutes ago, muldoon74 said:

I've seen that one, does indeed show someone falling off... 

 

Question though... 

 

They all appear to be men/young men of fighting age, can't actually pick any women or children out in the crowds, yet they'd (it would appear) rather die fleeing their country than stay and fight for it & their families? 

They are terrified ffs. 
 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by AlimOzturk

[Savage Vince]

13 minutes ago, muldoon74 said:

I've seen that one, does indeed show someone falling off... 

 

Question though... 

 

They all appear to be men/young men of fighting age, can't actually pick any women or children out in the crowds, yet they'd (it would appear) rather die fleeing their country than stay and fight for it & their families? 

 

Maybe they're single? 

[AlimOzturk]

There really seems to be no hope for humanity.  Covid, Afghan, global warming, North Korea, poverty, corruption everywhere. 
 

pretty sick of it all tbh. You attempt to ignore the news and live your own life but sometimes it just pops up on the phone and videos like folk hanging onto planes and falling off is ****ing harrowing. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

There really seems to be no hope for humanity.  Covid, Afghan, global warming, North Korea, poverty, corruption everywhere. 
 

pretty sick of it all tbh. You attempt to ignore the news and live your own life but sometimes it just pops up on the phone and videos like folk hanging onto planes and falling off is ****ing harrowing. 

It’s certainly depressing times.

[Governor Tarkin]

4 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It’s certainly depressing times.

 

Pubs are open, gadgie. 👍 🍻

[muldoon74]

4 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

Maybe they're single? 

If not now then in a couple of weeks after the taliban have been round all the local women/girls then they certainly will be. 

 

What is it with religious fundamentalists that make the hating and persecution of females such a focal point? 

 

Stoning preteens for looking at a man

Female circumcision (or female genital mutilation to give it its correct name) 

Marrying off of preteens to very much older men

 

2nd class citizenship would be a massive improvement for these poor souls. 

 

The men can recant previous beliefs, allegiances and joib the taliban however if you're female there now,.. You're utterly ****ed. 

[dobmisterdobster]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Patel.

 

Oh, and don't go letting the harsh realities of a situation get in the way of a good anti Britain/West/white folk, whinge.

 

A couple of months ago, everybody wanted to sanction Israel for killing terrorists in Gaza.

 

The same people are silent over the fall of Afghanistan other than sending "thoughts and prayers"

[Savage Vince]

7 minutes ago, muldoon74 said:

If not now then in a couple of weeks after the taliban have been round all the local women/girls then they certainly will be. 

 

What is it with religious fundamentalists that make the hating and persecution of females such a focal point? 

 

Stoning preteens for looking at a man

Female circumcision (or female genital mutilation to give it its correct name) 

Marrying off of preteens to very much older men

 

2nd class citizenship would be a massive improvement for these poor souls. 

 

The men can recant previous beliefs, allegiances and joib the taliban however if you're female there now,.. You're utterly ****ed. 

 

It looks like it, sadly. 

[Maple Leaf]

3 hours ago, Sharpie said:

We have paid a heavy debt of loyalty although it took the attack on Pearl Harbour to make up their mind, to the Americans who by numbers alone helped us win when we were in dire need in WW2. We have paid heavily since, such as Korea, and later Afghanistan. It would be easy to discard any American assistance, but could we on our own deal with aggression by say Russia or China.

 

Bob, Korea was not an American war.  It was the United Nations coming to the aid of a UN country, South Korea, who had been invaded by a non-UN country, China. The American army was the largest contributor to the UN effort, by far.

 

Similarly in Afghanistan, a NATO country, America, had been attacked and other NATO countries were treaty obligated to fight alongside the Americans. As member of NATO, Canada and the UK had no choice.

 

In contrast to the above two wars, Iraq was definitely an American war and their allies were under no obligation to get involved.  That's why Canada stayed out of it.  For no good reason that I'm aware of, Tony Blair sent British troops to help the Americans occupy Iraq.

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, CostaJambo said:

China is quietly pumping billions into Africa under the radar. Gonna get messy at some point but probably not for a long time yet, they are traditionally happy to play a very long game.

 

There's nothing quiet about it. They've been pumping money into countries since 2013 under the belt & roads initiative. A number of these countries are now regretting getting into bed with the CCP. I see the goddess Ardern is trying to do the same with NZ. 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Biden doing his address to nation now 

[Des Lynam]

 

 

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

America undoubtedly did, but that's what you get when governments and competing agencies interests change. The global threat to the West has also shifted further East. The failure was developing a clear and cohesive strategy from the off and having the minerals and wherewithal to see it all through. Although you can't see it all through, because the job is never done.

Picking your favoured warlords and chucking money and resources at them has seldom led to long term stability in the past, and it hasn't here. What we've seen over the past 20 years (can't ****ing believe it's been 20 years) is an absolute disgrace. 

 

I say this despite many good people doing untold good work in the face of terrible odds. 

If I was a religious man I'd be praying for the people of Afghanistan (once again). They are about to eat each other.

Pity the neighbours too.

 

Biden will frame this as a counter terrorism war and that they weren’t there to nation build. It might look an end to American military interventionism in the short term but they are gearing up for the Greatest power competition with China. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

38 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Pubs are open, gadgie. 👍 🍻

There again it’s a great time to be alive.

🤣

[Governor Tarkin]

19 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

 

Biden will frame this as a counter terrorism war and that they weren’t there to nation build. It might look an end to American military interventionism in the short term but they are gearing up for the Greatest power competition with China. 

 

It's nowhere near an end to American military interventionism, they're only shifting focus.

 

The Americans, like the Russians before them and the British before that, have found out that you can't tame Afghanistan by means other than a total long-term commitment to regional nation building. Bombs, guns, and bribes won't do it. Propping up regimes to facilitate resource extraction or wage the odd proxy war won't do it either. Imposing puppet dictators will do it in the short term (just watch China go in the coming years), but short of brutalising entire populations for ever more, that's doomed to fail too. 

 

There's too many competing interests in that part of the world - both domestic and international - for there ever to be stability. The West's greatest failure was an inability to establishing a common ground, which is difficult when you're dealing with factional, medieval mindsets.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Governor Tarkin

[JackLadd]

Is a sad state of affairs when 75k militants can take over a country of 38m so rapidly. It does show what Islamic fanaticism can achieve. The same simple doctrine that propelled a warlord prophet to conquer Arabia, Persia, Syria, Coptic Egypt and of course Afghanistan. 

[Sharpie]

35 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Bob, Korea was not an American war.  It was the United Nations coming to the aid of a UN country, South Korea, who had been invaded by a non-UN country, China. The American army was the largest contributor to the UN effort, by far.

 

Similarly in Afghanistan, a NATO country, America, had been attacked and other NATO countries were treaty obligated to fight alongside the Americans. As member of NATO, Canada and the UK had no choice.

 

In contrast to the above two wars, Iraq was definitely an American war and their allies were under no obligation to get involved.  That's why Canada stayed out of it.  For no good reason that I'm aware of, Tony Blair sent British troops to help the Americans occupy Iraq.

Actually I think South Korea was invaded by North Korea. The Americans were afraid it was Chinese instigated so that if North Korea won and occupied the South, China would have a place of geographical  importance. I seem to recall that the United Nations responded to an American request. It of course would have been difficult for UNO to deny the United States anything because of their strength. However that is history, I just know that when I went to volunteer for army service  I was inundated by Scottish Regiment sergeants all wanting me to sign for their regiment as they were taking major casualties in Korea. I was rescued when the ceremonially dressed Sgt Alexander, Scots Guards took command and signed me up to his Regiment which  was my desire.

[Maple Leaf]

3 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

Actually I think South Korea was invaded by North Korea. The Americans were afraid it was Chinese instigated so that if North Korea won and occupied the South, China would have a place of geographical  importance. I seem to recall that the United Nations responded to an American request. It of course would have been difficult for UNO to deny the United States anything because of their strength. However that is history, I just know that when I went to volunteer for army service  I was inundated by Scottish Regiment sergeants all wanting me to sign for their regiment as they were taking major casualties in Korea. I was rescued when the ceremonially dressed Sgt Alexander, Scots Guards took command and signed me up to his Regiment which  was my desire.

 

You are, of course, correct.

[Sharpie]

Watched Biden talk, a complete contradiction of his own statements  that Taliban would never be able to takeover Afghanistan. I could not believe the state of his face, covered in what looks like scratches around his nasal area. he spoke very well, but had no relation to the facts, was just his explanation how he sees it all came about. The facts being the Taliban took over in basically hours, the previously simple evacuation of Americans and Afghani supporters initially considered is not happening, it is a disaster.

[Sharpie]

1 minute ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

You are, of course, correct.

 

Theres a first time for everything. 😇

[Savage Vince]

C17 carrying 5 times its passenger limit. 

[Psychedelicropcircle]

The taliban did once state you have the watches,we have the time! 
 

id say that statement has come to fruition.

[Cade]

"It is wrong to order American troops to step up when Afghanistan’s own armed forces would not.
How many more generations of America’s daughters and sons would you have me send to fight Afghanistan’s civil war when Afghan troops will not?"
-Joe Biden.

 

Fair enough, I suppose.

[Cruyff]

Just now, Cade said:

"It is wrong to order American troops to step up when Afghanistan’s own armed forces would not.
How many more generations of America’s daughters and sons would you have me send to fight Afghanistan’s civil war when Afghan troops will not?"
-Joe Biden.

 

Fair enough, I suppose.

America caused the mess. Biden is a moron. 

[manaliveits105]

43 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

C17 carrying 5 times its passenger limit. 

Don’t let Michael O’Leary see that !

[Taffin]

36 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

America caused the mess. Biden is a moron. 

 

Maybe so, but decades have passed and the young American men and women having their limbs blown off certainly didn't cause the mess. I agree with Biden; if Afghans won't fight for their country, why should anyone else?

 

Edit: that's not to say I think they way they've handled the withdrawal has been anywhere close to competent.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Taffin

[1971fozzy]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Head of the Taliban was released from a Pakistani jail three years ago as part of Trump's deal with the Taliban.

 

He's on his way up from Doha to occupy the Presidential Palace.

 

jesus 😳😱

[1971fozzy]

11 hours ago, Auldbenches said:

This is also going to fire up Islamic radicals who will see this as a huge victory and are going to get active for decades.  Give it a couple of years and the west will see an increase in terrorist attacks. 

We will pay for this in the next few years. 

 

This is terrifying and sadly 100% true.  Also what awaits the female population etc and it’s just awful 😥 darkest of days 

[Cruyff]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

Maybe so, but decades have passed and the young American men and women having their limbs blown off certainly didn't cause the mess. I agree with Biden; if Afghans won't fight for their country, why should anyone else?

 

Edit: that's not to say I think they way they've handled the withdrawal has been anywhere close to competent.

It's a complete cop out.

 

He was Vice President when Obama took on Bush's war, he was part of the Administration that sent 17,000 additional US troops to Afghanistan during a troop surge that saw the most brutal period of fighting and casualties. 

 

Now he decides to wash his hands off it when it suits and leave Afghanistan in a shit state, blaming it on Trump and locals. Some fecking brass neck he has. It's every bit his war as it was every bit that of last 3 Administrations. 

[AlphonseCapone]

3 hours ago, muldoon74 said:

I've seen that one, does indeed show someone falling off... 

 

Question though... 

 

They all appear to be men/young men of fighting age, can't actually pick any women or children out in the crowds, yet they'd (it would appear) rather die fleeing their country than stay and fight for it & their families? 

 

Maybe they just aren't as hard as you? 

[Taffin]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

It's a complete cop out.

 

He was Vice President when Obama took on Bush's war, he was part of the Administration that sent 17,000 additional US troops to Afghanistan during a troop surge that saw the most brutal period of fighting and casualties. 

 

Now he decides to wash his hands off it when it suits and leave Afghanistan in a shit state, blaming it on Trump and locals. Some fecking brass neck he has. It's every bit his war as it was every bit that of last 3 Administrations. 

 

So what do you want him to do? Strap on his body armour and boots and get over there himself?

 

Brass neck from him or not, it doesn't change the fact that young Americans (some who won't have even been born in 2001) shouldn't be expected to go and fight in a country where even the nationals of that country won't fight for it. It's akin to throwing good money after bad. "Sorry Mrs Jones, your son is in a body bag. Why? Because we decided the best way for the president to save face was to continue chipping away at an unwinnable war". That's also not a good look for them.

[SwindonJambo]

52 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Don’t let Michael O’Leary see that !

 He wanted to sell tickets for standing passengers but wasn’t allowed. He also wanted to charge for in flight toilet use and his immediate underlings ganged up and talked him out of it.

Speaking of toilets, could have been interesting on that flight. If you’re fleeing for your life it’s the least of your worries tbf. I’m surprised that plane took off!

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Beni said:

 

No need to apologise, I'll have one last shot at explaining your misunderstanding to you. 😉

 

Here's an example.

If it was a record breaking 40 degrees centigrade last Tuesday, then 15 degrees for the rest of the week until today when it was 20°, someone saying "this is the warmest day since Tuesday" isn't claiming that 20° and 40° are comparable temperatures.

 

Literally nobody has said the exit from Afghanistan is comparable to Suez, that only happened in your head.

I wasn't apologising. And your analogy/example is trite. The temperatures in your example are well defined and irrefutable fact.

 Humiliation is a subjective thing.

A case can be made that "the UK" has not been humiliated this week. If it has been it is a different form and degree of humiliation from Suez. A case can also be made that the UK has suffered worse "humiliations" since Suez  than the one (if it is one) suffered this week.

[Cruyff]

1 minute ago, Taffin said:

 

So what do you want him to do? Strap on his body armour and boots and get over there himself?

 

Brass neck from him or not, it doesn't change the fact that young Americans (some who won't have even been born in 2001) shouldn't be expected to go and fight in a country where even the nationals of that country won't fight for it. It's akin to throwing good money after bad. "Sorry Mrs Jones, your son is in a body bag. Why? Because we decided the best way for the president to save face was to continue chipping away at an unwinnable war". That's also not a good look for them.

Don't be silly. No one is calling for troops to go back in. He and his Administration had a duty and responsibility to ensure that Afghans had the same level of security and human rights as they did when ISAF left. 

 

In Biden's own words, 

[JackLadd]

1 hour ago, Savage Vince said:

C17 carrying 5 times its passenger limit. 

 

 

Must feel like winning the lotto to be on that plane out of there.

[SwindonJambo]

3 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

There really seems to be no hope for humanity.  Covid, Afghan, global warming, North Korea, poverty, corruption everywhere. 
 

pretty sick of it all tbh. You attempt to ignore the news and live your own life but sometimes it just pops up on the phone and videos like folk hanging onto planes and falling off is ****ing harrowing. 

 

I was thinking that earlier. All of these problems are caused by a single species. The range of good and bad in individual humans is incredibly wide. What a deeply flawed species we are with greed and lust for power and control  at the root of most of it. 

 

As things stand, if nothing changes we are thoroughly rogered. I suppose we’re all just here for a visit and we just have to make it as pleasant   as possible. But the news is seriously depressing these days  

 

 

[Ulysses]

30 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A case can be made that "the UK" has not been humiliated this week. If it has been it is a different form and degree of humiliation from Suez. A case can also be made that the UK has suffered worse "humiliations" since Suez  than the one (if it is one) suffered this week.

 

And if there is a "humiliation" for the UK (and I'm not sure there is), it's going to be very much overshadowed by the severe dent in the geopolitical status of the United States.