Afghanistan

[Cade]

1 hour ago, highlandjambo3 said:

United States of Europe scares the shit out of America 

Correct.

When taken as a single entity, the EU has the world's largest economy.

If it had a single, unified foreign policy and a joint armed forces it'd be a full-on Superpower.

[JFK-1]

On 20/08/2021 at 15:08, AlphonseCapone said:

I think I disagree, but not because I think things are dandy. People tend to say similar things every time a situation like this happens. Folk were saying it when the head of Iranian Guards or Intelligence was killed, when the Iranians bombed the American base in Iraq, when North Korea fires a new missile across Japan etc. In a month or two, most folk in the west will have moved on and forgotten events in Afghanistan imo.

 

The geopolitical background right now isn't defined by this Afghan collapse. It's certainly another feature of it now but not the main feature. There's a major shift taking place that's been in motion for decades.

I feel things are more unstable right now than they have been since pre WW2. Putting aside isolated incidents like the Cuban missile crisis. And war itself is changing potentially faster than we can keep up with.

In recent limited conflicts such as the liberation of Kuwait then the invasion of Iraq the opening shots take out air defences then the air force takes over. The opening shots in any near future conflict with powers of the standing of Russia/China will be knocking out the opponents infrastructure.

Take down his power grid, fuel supply lines, and his society quickly falls apart. The easy way to do that is by taking out the computers, and non state actors are already doing that all the time.

And if that's what a non state actor can do, what sort of technical sophistication would a group formed and funded by Russia or China have? Now it may be the case that all this hacking of US infrastructure coming out of Russia actually is already backed by Putin.

Of course he would deny that, and Trump for one would believe him, but even if that were the case you have to doubt they would have given these groups their very best shit. In case it got into the hands of others including the US who if they had it could then work to shield from it.

But the thing is, no matter where the software and expertise came from, it's now out there in the wild in the hands of non state actors and beyond to complete non entities. Potentially the classic nutcase loner sitting in the basement..

How do you deal with a non state actor who cripples your entire nation? How would Biden respond?

What if China or Russia were the targets of a non state actor who crippled them potentially for weeks or months? Are they going to blame it on the US and respond?

The proliferation of non state actors who can cripple a superpower whether independently or covertly guided by an opposing power is a danger that in my view may even be considered an inevitability. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Correct.

When taken as a single entity, the EU has the world's largest economy.

If it had a single, unified foreign policy and a joint armed forces it'd be a full-on Superpower.

 

Not according to the EU themselves, Josep Borrel the EU's foreign policy chief admitted in November 2020 that the EU doesn't have the capabilities as a standalone military power.

 

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union acknowledged on Friday that it lacks the capabilities to meet its goal - pushed most strongly by its biggest members - to become a standalone military power able to help NATO or deploy troops rapidly to regional crises.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-defence-idUSKBN2801SR

 

[Ainsley Harriott]

Wee Krankie getting her bit in about the situation. She has loads to say when it comes to international affairs. she loves making out shes some sort of international leader 😂😂

[Sharpie]

On 21/08/2021 at 22:24, The Mighty Thor said:

I totally agree re the 'special relationship', however that penny will never drop.

 

The UK establishment and successive governments still think the UK is a major player on the global stage. A political and military presence to be feared and respected. 

They'll never ever be able to square away in their heads the reality that the UK is small fry and only flourishes with the 'school bully' at its back. 

The British empire was a long long time ago. 

 

I think you are correct about the diminishment of the Empire. I think it possibly started in the 1950's someone earlier mentioned Suez, and I think now they hit it right on the nose. Britain at that time was involved with said Suez, Korea war, bandits in Malaya, heavily committed to Europe, and other areas in the world.This responsibility and manpower commitment was bolstered by using conscription, to wit, National Service. In a way they accepted crap in Egypt from the then new regimes after removal of Farouk. In 1956 they invaded and done what they possibly should have done used force to maintain Status Quo in the Canal Zone. The difference was it was a united action with two other countries. That has become the norm Nato et al, Britain cannot be a power anymore with a large volunteer army, the younger generation are just not into it seems military service, and god bless em for that, Empire status is not the be all and end all in this day and age. Even America are finding that out, just watch the news about Afghanistan, and see the backstabbing being carried out by opposing political entities. I watched on Fox News last night and the tirade by the English sounding commentator about President Biden who again was never addressed as such was the worst I in all my years have ever heard, it was inciteful, critical to absolute cruelty, and in some countries would have incurred an immediate death sentence. The total almost open suggestion I took being President Biden although his title was never stated once should be removed and replaced by someone as long a it was not his incompetent and lacking in knowledge Vice President although again not referred to as such, I suspected the veiled suggestion of being replaced immediately by someone competent with a record of good leadership,it was not difficult being Fox to consider who was being suggested

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

38 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

Wee Krankie getting her bit in about the situation. She has loads to say when it comes to international affairs. she loves making out shes some sort of international leader 😂😂

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Exchange of gunfire today at Kabul airport involving US, German & Afghan soldiers and as yet unidentified gunmen, CNN reports a sniper was also involved, 1 Afghan soldier was killed and several others wounded.   That's the start.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/germany-says-firefight-involving-western-forces-erupts-kabul-airport-2021-08-23/

Edited August 23, 2021 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 

I think you are correct about the diminishment of the Empire. I think it possibly started in the 1950's someone earlier mentioned Suez, and I think now they hit it right on the nose. Britain at that time was involved with said Suez, Korea war, bandits in Malaya, heavily committed to Europe, and other areas in the world.This responsibility and manpower commitment was bolstered by using conscription, to wit, National Service. In a way they accepted crap in Egypt from the then new regimes after removal of Farouk. In 1956 they invaded and done what they possibly should have done used force to maintain Status Quo in the Canal Zone. The difference was it was a united action with two other countries. That has become the norm Nato et al, Britain cannot be a power anymore with a large volunteer army, the younger generation are just not into it seems military service, and god bless em for that, Empire status is not the be all and end all in this day and age. Even America are finding that out, just watch the news about Afghanistan, and see the backstabbing being carried out by opposing political entities. I watched on Fox News last night and the tirade by the English sounding commentator about President Biden who again was never addressed as such was the worst I in all my years have ever heard, it was inciteful, critical to absolute cruelty, and in some countries would have incurred an immediate death sentence. The total almost open suggestion I took being President Biden although his title was never stated once should be removed and replaced by someone as long a it was not his incompetent and lacking in knowledge Vice President although again not referred to as such, I suspected the veiled suggestion of being replaced immediately by someone competent with a record of good leadership,it was not difficult being Fox to consider who was being suggested

 

 

Bob, I seen an interview on Sky News earlier with a Republican Congresswoman, didn't catch her name, anyway she was adamant that all of this is Joe Biden's fault, when challenged about Donald Trump signing the peace deal with the Taliban in the first place, she refuted that Trump had signed any peace deal, Trump had set out a 'framework' for a deal she said, and it's Joe Biden whose acted upon that 'framework'.  She praised Trump's policies for there being no attacks on American forces and no American casulties for the last two years or so.  Yes that's because of the peace deal Trump had signed.

 

They are desperately trying to re-write history here.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Ainsley Harriott]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

😂

[Tazio]

Looking at the Flightradar24 app on a regular basis now to see what is flying over Afghanistan. Currently a couple of American heavy transport planes flying out and a Hungarian one, also a small American passenger jet flying towards Kabul. Less than I would have expected. 

[Tazio]

26 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Looking at the Flightradar24 app on a regular basis now to see what is flying over Afghanistan. Currently a couple of American heavy transport planes flying out and a Hungarian one, also a small American passenger jet flying towards Kabul. Less than I would have expected. 

Getting busier now. A couple of American Globemasters flying out and 2 on the tarmac with a helicopter patrolling overhead. Also an Australian Hercules on it’s way in to Kabul. Nothing British though. 

[Sharpie]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Bob, I seen an interview on Sky News earlier with a Republican Congresswoman, didn't catch her name, anyway she was adamant that all of this is Joe Biden's fault, when challenged about Donald Trump signing the peace deal with the Taliban in the first place, she refuted that Trump had signed any peace deal, Trump had set out a 'framework' for a deal she said, and it's Joe Biden whose acted upon that 'framework'.  She praised Trump's policies for there being no attacks on American forces and no American casulties for the last two years or so.  Yes that's because of the peace deal Trump had signed.

 

They are desperately trying to re-write history here.

 

I like to think its not the type of allegation I would normally make, but between Fox News staff, and elected Republican Congress and Senate members  I have gained the impression that if their lips are moving they are telling lies. Fox go on about Biden telling lies, I am sure he does, but his total must be minuscule in comparison to those unsullied by Fox et al of Trump.

[micole]

Don't Be surprised if it all kicks off again ,Americans want an extension to get people out ,Taliban say nothing after 31st August........that could end well

.....🥴🥴

[Greedy Jambo]

Even ISIS are giving the Taliban a slagging now.

The US let this happen, or dare i say it, wanted it to happen. 

 

[Greedy Jambo]

The president is just a face, the only difference this time is, he's a face that can't tie his own shoe laces. 

[Morgan]

7 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

😀👍

[highlandjambo3]

5 hours ago, Tazio said:

Getting busier now. A couple of American Globemasters flying out and 2 on the tarmac with a helicopter patrolling overhead. Also an Australian Hercules on it’s way in to Kabul. Nothing British though. 

I heard The British Hercules has a puncture……oh wait, we’ve got 2 have we not?

[Tazio]

Just now, highlandjambo3 said:

I heard The British Hercules has a puncture……oh wait, we’ve got 2 have we not?

We'll probably subcontract it out to Ryanair and Easyjet. 

[Des Lynam]

 

[JackLadd]

The plucky Afghan Resistance Front should be militarily assisted by UK imo. Not sure how albeit. 

[Sharpie]

33 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

The plucky Afghan Resistance Front should be militarily assisted by UK imo. Not sure how albeit. 

 Absolutely correct, they should send videos of British Military training, British Military discipline, Leadership courses, then they will have all they need to teach their people how to perform in battle. No more British lives should be lost in this political farce created by the Americans twenty years ago, and Trumps peace pact, opening the door for President Biden's pitiful withdrawal effort.

[JackLadd]

36 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 Absolutely correct, they should send videos of British Military training, British Military discipline, Leadership courses, then they will have all they need to teach their people how to perform in battle. No more British lives should be lost in this political farce created by the Americans twenty years ago, and Trumps peace pact, opening the door for President Biden's pitiful withdrawal effort.

 

These are the core that want to fight and have grouped north of Kabul. I didn't say boots on the ground. Some logistical assistance to keep them supplied only. The Taliban will execute all of them so that is reason enough to help them. 

[JFK-1]

Support these rebel groups and Russo/China will simply support the Taliban against them. Another cold war style war by proxy.

[Herbert.]

13 hours ago, Tazio said:

We'll probably subcontract it out to Ryanair and Easyjet. 

Yassss

9.99 flights are back on 

[Ibrahim Tall]

13 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 Absolutely correct, they should send videos of British Military training, British Military discipline, Leadership courses, then they will have all they need to teach their people how to perform in battle. No more British lives should be lost in this political farce created by the Americans twenty years ago, and Trumps peace pact, opening the door for President Biden's pitiful withdrawal effort.

Tbh the Americans don’t deserve much credit but this isn’t something they created 20 years ago. Afghanistan’s been a cluster**** since 1973.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

Tbh the Americans don’t deserve much credit but this isn’t something they created 20 years ago. Afghanistan’s been a cluster**** since 1973.

Did you have to mention that year?

[Ibrahim Tall]

3 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Did you have to mention that year?

Urgh, sorry before my time. Didn’t even register until you said that.  

[The Real Maroonblood]

6 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Urgh, sorry before my time. Didn’t even register until you said that.  

👍

[Sharpie]

50 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Tbh the Americans don’t deserve much credit but this isn’t something they created 20 years ago. Afghanistan’s been a cluster**** since 1973.

The Americans went in to Afghanistan to get those responsible for 9/11, I don't blame them for what they did, but they had to consider history prior to making that move and realizing the repercussions. Afghanistan has been the subject of some form of invasion or occupation for many many years, and has never been known to back down from a fight. There are a few nations over history who have challenged them, to their own detriment, including Britain. The problem as I see it, is that Trump created a situation by deciding to withdraw his military from Afghanistan, and by way of an Agreement with the Taliban succeeded to some extent. The misfortune was he lost an election when this was all taking place, and Biden has proved  inept in handling the withdrawal, one of the main problems is the total break down of any relations between Biden and Trump. It would have been fortuitous if the present leader and the former President had been able to meet and discuss this disaster with hope of getting a mutual understanding and agreement on the whole agreement with the Taliban  and means by which to force them to cooperate. The animosity between the two men and their respective political parties has been a political disaster and the tragedy is innocent people will quite possibly lose their lives as a result.

[The Mighty Thor]

Am I missing something?

Johnson has asked Biden to extend the evacuation date past the 31st of August?

Does he actually think Biden will have any say in that whatsoever?

 

The Taliban have already told them to ram it. 

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

42 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Am I missing something?

Johnson has asked Biden to extend the evacuation date past the 31st of August?

Does he actually think Biden will have any say in that whatsoever?

 

The Taliban have already told them to ram it. 

 

 

 

Not just Johnson. The entire G7. 

[highlandjambo3]

16 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 Absolutely correct, they should send videos of British Military training, British Military discipline, Leadership courses, then they will have all they need to teach their people how to perform in battle. No more British lives should be lost in this political farce created by the Americans twenty years ago, and Trumps peace pact, opening the door for President Biden's pitiful withdrawal effort.

That won’t work.  

Speaking with experience of training foreign soldiers (I was a Warrant Officer training advisor in Sierra Leone for a year) the Afghan military will have received a multitude of battle lessons (teaching a new skill) and, battle exercises (testing this new skill)over the period of years.  These skills are learned by the British army at the infantry battle school in Brecon, Wales to infantry corporals and above.  As well at this bread and butter course, there will have been many many leadership skills courses delivered as a training package by the various British units serving over there over the course of the time we’ve been there (I cannot vouch for what other countries delivered).  My educated and informed guess is the Afghan military leadership lacked the will to carry out the skills they were trained to do which quickly lead to dissent in the ranks and, the quick collapse of Afghan forces.
 

Of course there is an argument that we left to quickly and their bottle crashed……..a question I cannot answer and should be asked of a politician.

 

Dvd’s videos would not suffice…..firstly I’d imaging they don’t have the resources or logistics in place to deliver this and secondly (most importantly), I’d be careful of delivering false hope and expectation to people who may by and large think that watching a video of a British infantry section conducting a mock attack would somehow make them competent in this skill…..they may actually believe that and run straight to their deaths.

 

As mentioned earlier, battle lessons followed by battle exercise is the way it should be (and probably was) done.

[Governor Tarkin]

28 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

 

Of course there is an argument that we left to quickly and their bottle crashed……..a question I cannot answer and should be asked of a politician.

 

 

Their bottle would've crashed whether we left yesterday or in ten years time. Too much interference from our 'allies' on the other end of the Khyber Pass.

[highlandjambo3]

44 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Their bottle would've crashed whether we left yesterday or in ten years time. Too much interference from our 'allies' on the other end of the Khyber Pass.

I agree…..

 

First gulf war and the Americans were very proud of the fact that they had Mobil cold Coca-Cola vending machines just behind the front line….great achievement for them.  We used to go bowling near one of their airforce bases near Cambridge but…..we had to exchange Stirling at the bank for US dollars as that’s all they used on their base…..Americans do not understand anything non American and cannot fathom why other nations don’t want to be like them….land of the free and all that.  One of the many failings of western foreign policy in the past is our repeated attempts to make countries the way we would like them to be (just like us) when they don’t want to (or can’t).

[Ked]

7 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Support these rebel groups and Russo/China will simply support the Taliban against them. Another cold war style war by proxy.

Never ending.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Am I missing something?

Johnson has asked Biden to extend the evacuation date past the 31st of August?

Does he actually think Biden will have any say in that whatsoever?

 

The Taliban have already told them to ram it. 

 

 

 

It pissed me off somewhat the last couple of days with Labour politicians amongst others, calling on Bojo to persude Biden etc etc.

They knew just like the rest of us, that an extention wasn't Biden's gift to give, either that or they haven't been paying attention to the situation.

 

[felix]

2 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said:

That won’t work.  

Speaking with experience of training foreign soldiers (I was a Warrant Officer training advisor in Sierra Leone for a year) the Afghan military will have received a multitude of battle lessons (teaching a new skill) and, battle exercises (testing this new skill)over the period of years.  These skills are learned by the British army at the infantry battle school in Brecon, Wales to infantry corporals and above.  As well at this bread and butter course, there will have been many many leadership skills courses delivered as a training package by the various British units serving over there over the course of the time we’ve been there (I cannot vouch for what other countries delivered).  My educated and informed guess is the Afghan military leadership lacked the will to carry out the skills they were trained to do which quickly lead to dissent in the ranks and, the quick collapse of Afghan forces.
 

Of course there is an argument that we left to quickly and their bottle crashed……..a question I cannot answer and should be asked of a politician.

 

Dvd’s videos would not suffice…..firstly I’d imaging they don’t have the resources or logistics in place to deliver this and secondly (most importantly), I’d be careful of delivering false hope and expectation to people who may by and large think that watching a video of a British infantry section conducting a mock attack would somehow make them competent in this skill…..they may actually believe that and run straight to their deaths.

 

As mentioned earlier, battle lessons followed by battle exercise is the way it should be (and probably was) done.

 

To the layman, this is a country that's fended off 3 British ; 3 Russian & 1 US invasion. What can we teach them about fighting ?

[Dagger Is Back]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Am I missing something?

Johnson has asked Biden to extend the evacuation date past the 31st of August?

Does he actually think Biden will have any say in that whatsoever?

 

The Taliban have already told them to ram it. 

 

 

 

I(t's just a manoeuvre by the lot of them. It's a no lose situation for them. If it happens they'll claim the victory, if they don't it's a case of we tried but.....

[highlandjambo3]

1 hour ago, felix said:

 

To the layman, this is a country that's fended off 3 British ; 3 Russian & 1 US invasion. What can we teach them about fighting ?

Quite a bit actually…..300 men attacking and overpowering a machine gun with only 250 bullets would be considered a victory for the attackers but, there is clearly a better way to do it.

[felix]

1 hour ago, Deke Thornton said:

But it’s still one of the world’s greatest sh**holes, along with all the other sh**holes ending in ……stan!
 

so nuke the sh**hole 'stans ?

 

14 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said:

Quite a bit actually…..300 men attacking and overpowering a machine gun with only 250 bullets would be considered a victory for the attackers but, there is clearly a better way to do it.

?

[Savage Vince]

1 hour ago, Deke Thornton said:

But it’s still one of the world’s greatest sh**holes, along with all the other sh**holes ending in ……stan!
 

 

Bit racisty.

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It pissed me off somewhat the last couple of days with Labour politicians amongst others, calling on Bojo to persude Biden etc etc.

They knew just like the rest of us, that an extention wasn't Biden's gift to give, either that or they haven't been paying attention to the situation.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

 

I(t's just a manoeuvre by the lot of them. It's a no lose situation for them. If it happens they'll claim the victory, if they don't it's a case of we tried but.....

I found the media coverage on it all quite laughable.  "Boris calls meeting of G7" "Boris to tell Biden we need extension" oh aye, the Taliban are hanging on his every word. 

The fact that the AK totting, moped riding, desert dwellers are jamming two fingers up would under other circumstances be top bantz but the fact that there's going to be a blood letting is pretty brutal. 

[Sharpie]

1 hour ago, felix said:

 

To the layman, this is a country that's fended off 3 British ; 3 Russian & 1 US invasion. What can we teach them about fighting ?

[highlandjambo3]

12 minutes ago, felix said:

so nuke the sh**hole 'stans ?

 

?

I’m talking about teaching troops to think a bit more about dealing with something more than attrition……we were not very good at it ourselves in WW1 when a whistle blast sent tens of thousands to their deaths……..fight and die for my country….nah….that was never my ideology…..fight and live….yes.

[The Mighty Thor]

4 minutes ago, Deke Thornton said:

If the US had managed the withdrawal more efficiently the tribesmen wouldn’t have had this leverage.

 

Probably. 

You would have thought that the 'G7' countries would have had a plan A and at least a plan B for winding down after 20 years? 

[Dagger Is Back]

38 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I found the media coverage on it all quite laughable.  "Boris calls meeting of G7" "Boris to tell Biden we need extension" oh aye, the Taliban are hanging on his every word. 

The fact that the AK totting, moped riding, desert dwellers are jamming two fingers up would under other circumstances be top bantz but the fact that there's going to be a blood letting is pretty brutal. 

Absolutely. Just such a tragic situation. 

[Boab]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I found the media coverage on it all quite laughable.  "Boris calls meeting of G7" "Boris to tell Biden we need extension" oh aye, the Taliban are hanging on his every word. 

The fact that the AK totting, moped riding, desert dwellers are jamming two fingers up would under other circumstances be top bantz but the fact that there's going to be a blood letting is pretty brutal. 

Probably the only thing a lot of people have in common with them is we both think BJ is a prick !

[JackLadd]

I can't see Biden leaving on the 31st without every American accounted for whatever he is saying outwardly. 

[Sharpie]

1 hour ago, highlandjambo3 said:

I’m talking about teaching troops to think a bit more about dealing with something more than attrition……we were not very good at it ourselves in WW1 when a whistle blast sent tens of thousands to their deaths……..fight and die for my country….nah….that was never my ideology…..fight and live….yes.

 

I seem to recall at the Guards Training Battalion we were taught bayonet fighting and spent hours charging supposed enemy positions shouting and screaming and ripping the pure shite out of dummies with the intent of killing every enemy we had advanced against. You must have been trained some time later than I, it seems to me attrition of the enemy was the goal. WW.1 was the end of the old system of war trenches and major attacks. My father was in the trenches in France as an eighteen year old conscript, because he was an athlete he was given the job of a runner, I have read the job with the highest mortality rate of a selected job such as that. Of course there were major infantry attacks, the trenches gave considerable protection for artillery, so the alternative was to charge in large number into enemy lines. Yes many died that's war, attrition is just a fancy word for death. Whatever the tactics worked because we won the war.

I am not sure I understand your comment about teaching soldiers to think about something more than attrition, surely that is what the infantryman and the artillery man are thinking, kill them all until there are none left. I was never in that kind of action but well knew that if I was my job as a Corporal section commander and as a platoon leading sergeant to use their weapons to kill the enemy on contact, and god bless us all the young men on the other side would have been taught the same thing. just like ourselves had similar intent. Possibly changed days. Possibly it was the Guards and their training but  I never really had an ideology, part of our training was the removal of all thoughts other than what they instilled at Caterham particularly. Hours of Regimental history, the belief that you were one of the best, and your duty, your duty was top of the scale to be carried out regardless, and your duty was to fight and die, but you knew that wan't going to happen because you were part of one of the best. Worse than death would have been to shirk any part of your duty because in doing so you would have denied your comrades. But that was 1952/55 way back in the old days.

[highlandjambo3]

20 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 

I seem to recall at the Guards Training Battalion we were taught bayonet fighting and spent hours charging supposed enemy positions shouting and screaming and ripping the pure shite out of dummies with the intent of killing every enemy we had advanced against. You must have been trained some time later than I, it seems to me attrition of the enemy was the goal. WW.1 was the end of the old system of war trenches and major attacks. My father was in the trenches in France as an eighteen year old conscript, because he was an athlete he was given the job of a runner, I have read the job with the highest mortality rate of a selected job such as that. Of course there were major infantry attacks, the trenches gave considerable protection for artillery, so the alternative was to charge in large number into enemy lines. Yes many died that's war, attrition is just a fancy word for death. Whatever the tactics worked because we won the war.

I am not sure I understand your comment about teaching soldiers to think about something more than attrition, surely that is what the infantryman and the artillery man are thinking, kill them all until there are none left. I was never in that kind of action but well knew that if I was my job as a Corporal section commander and as a platoon leading sergeant to use their weapons to kill the enemy on contact, and god bless us all the young men on the other side would have been taught the same thing. just like ourselves had similar intent. Possibly changed days. Possibly it was the Guards and their training but  I never really had an ideology, part of our training was the removal of all thoughts other than what they instilled at Caterham particularly. Hours of Regimental history, the belief that you were one of the best, and your duty, your duty was top of the scale to be carried out regardless, and your duty was to fight and die, but you knew that wan't going to happen because you were part of one of the best. Worse than death would have been to shirk any part of your duty because in doing so you would have denied your comrades. But that was 1952/55 way back in the old days.

Ok, a couple of points here:

 

Bayonet  fighting is still taught in the army as more of a way of reactively defending yourself and not so much as proactively attacking a position.  Like you’ve been over run or your out of ammunition.  I’ve never fired a rifle with a bayonet fitted as the bayonet attachment had a serious effect on the ballistic trajectory of a live round being fired….I.e. you’ll miss.

Maybe my comment about attrition was lost in translation.  Attrition is the ultimate end game, smash them so they don’t smash you but a solider needs to look at their survivability at the end of that skirmish, there’s a lot of married soldiers out there who really do want to go home.  My point is the logistics/economic value involved in reaching that end game has changed…..there is no real “charge” mentality these days.  Like I said, 300 men attacking a machine gun with only 250 bullets, the attacking force will win yes? But at what cost.  Infantry tactics will dictate that a flank (left/right) will greatly decrease the attackers losses and that is currently what is taught.  We seriously try to cut down the odds now.  

Unfortunately every defence secretary sees that as a reason to cut back…cut back….cut back….which will fail at some point.  I commanded an anti tank platoon in Bosnia where we had 11 warrior infantry fighting vehicles, in the back of each vehicle we should have had 2 anti tank teams of 2 armed both teams armed with a Milan guided missile systems..quite often there was no one in the back but we were bluffing the Serbs….it seemed to work.  
Remember we had cruise liners taking our troops to the falklands.  

I’m very pro military but not in a gung  ho way, I’ve put in more water wells in Africa than I’ve fired shots in anger but, I fear for where we are heading. 

 

I clearly remember the media build up to the first Iraq war where we were facing around a kilometre of Iraq defences, barbed wire, trenches filled with oil , mine fields, the elite republican guard, etc..etc… the media were whipping the public into a frenzy with graphic pictures of the Iraq forces front line.  Of course families were getting worried so, Our commanding officer got us together and said “don’t worry about all that shit, we’ll go around it” which we did 😊.  Didn’t loose a single soldier to Iraq forces, the Americans killed more of my battalion that the republican guard did cos they couldn’t identify a British warrior from a soviet T55.
 

There is (or was when I was serving) a 300% attack balance in your favour I.e. you identify an enemy position of 8 soldiers, you attack it with 24…..of course there are many actual probabilities of this not being possible.

Our army is getting smaller because suits have the notion that technology will win the day for us…………..I fear naught.