Pyramid Leagues Superthread

[Unknown user]

I really don't like how this is playing out, or that we're involved in it.

 

I read a thing from Aberdeen saying that if they got involved they'd need to be employing 55 full time footballers too, that's an awful lot.

[davemclaren]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I really don't like how this is playing out, or that we're involved in it.

 

I read a thing from Aberdeen saying that if they got involved they'd need to be employing 55 full time footballers too, that's an awful lot.

I can't see how it's any different ( player wise ) from us having a B team in the LL, which we currently have. 

[Hungry hippo]

27 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I really don't like how this is playing out, or that we're involved in it.

 

I read a thing from Aberdeen saying that if they got involved they'd need to be employing 55 full time footballers too, that's an awful lot.

 

From memory, we signed about 2 players for the B team last season.

 

I don't disagree with Aberdeen avoiding the Conference League but find that reason they provided a bit surprising.

 

We've maybe kept on 3 or 4 this summer who might have been released if we didn't have a B team. The numbers aren't that different as decent players at that age group would just have been sent on loan otherwise/previously. An example being Harry Stone of someone we kept in the B team last season rather than being loaned out again.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

I can't see how it's any different ( player wise ) from us having a B team in the LL, which we currently have. 

I don't like that either

[Locky]

8 hours ago, Stanley_ said:

But wouldn't any changes to promotion playoffs to League Two need to be approved by the clubs?

From what I recall in their manifesto, there's not really any changes to relegation so not sure if they would need to consult with other clubs.

7 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I can't see how it's any different ( player wise ) from us having a B team in the LL, which we currently have. 

As far as the morality is concerned, I'm still torn almost a year on. I was up in arms when Celtic and Rangers got their B teams shoehorned in to the LL, but once we entered a team, I was somewhat hypocritical acting purely out of self interest. But, in terms of what I stand for, I should be against our B team participating in either of these leagues.

[RobboM]

7 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I can't see how it's any different ( player wise ) from us having a B team in the LL, which we currently have. 

With a Reserve team those players are available to the 1st team squad week in and week out as necessary.
Think back to when we were running a Reserve team pre covid and you would regularly have Connor Smith, Henderson, Moore, Cochrane, Irving all making appearances from the bench.
This isn't how a B team works. It is effectively a separate squad because
1) games are played at the same time as the 1st team,
2) there are restrictions on the number of appearances a B team player can make for the 1s.
Hence you have a 1st team squad with cover for every position AND a B team squad which will probably be a core 16 players and picking up fringe players from other age groups as necessary
B teams so far, to me, simply restrict the possibility of a young player being given a chance during the season

[Footballfirst]

12 hours ago, Smithee said:

I really don't like how this is playing out, or that we're involved in it.

 

I read a thing from Aberdeen saying that if they got involved they'd need to be employing 55 full time footballers too, that's an awful lot.

By my reckoning we currently have 59 full time players from age 16 up, plus two loanees (Kuol, Hill).

 

We will be losing some youngsters who haven't made it (McGill, Logan, Darge, Watson), but the club has still to announce the bulk of the first contracts to 16 year olds (Wilson & Stevenson excepted).

 

We are in a situation where the bulk of the B team and U18s aren't going to make at Hearts. Although almost all of these guys are full time, they are being kept on to meet elite academy requirements (field an U18 team) and the staging post that is the B Team.  That all comes at a cost, so Aberdeen's estimate will not be far out. Realistically, only 4 or 5 of last season's B team still have a chance of making it, with the likelihood that only one or two will actually do so.

 

Hearts need a means of retaining and providing meaningful development to the best of their youngsters.  Playing a couple of seasons at tier 5 isn't preparing them for first team football.  At 18/19/20 they need to be playing in Tier 2 or 3, at worst, if they can't initially make the jump to the first team squad. 

 

For those at 16, I'd get them used to the rough and tumble of adult football in the EOS Premier League or similar for a season (Musselburgh, Penicuik, Haddington etc), where they could get  regular game time. It would be better for their development than playing in the U18 league, a bit like the old "S Form".

Edited May 18, 2023 by Footballfirst

[part_time_jambo]

21 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The SFA/SPFL have taken the first step in establishing a Conference League.

 

 

The sole shareholder is the SPFL. Its directors are Calum Beattie (COO of the SPFL) and Neil Doncaster.

What can possibly go wrong.

 

Hope the whole idea crashes and burns.

 

Not a fan of the idea. Shits all over the lower league teams who are trying to progress on a fraction of the finances.

[part_time_jambo]

19 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

At least the Lowland League is free of the B teams after the next season.

Just need to sort out their self-preservation driven, relegation rule.

[Footballfirst]

15 minutes ago, part_time_jambo said:

Just need to sort out their self-preservation driven, relegation rule.

If the Conference League goes ahead, either next season or the following season, then it will see an increased number of ex junior clubs invited to join the LL to replace those lost to the Conf L. I'd expect that will result in the balance of voting power shifting away from the original LL clubs.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

By my reckoning we currently have 59 full time players from age 16 up, plus two loanees (Kuol, Hill).

 

We will be losing some youngsters who haven't made it (McGill, Logan, Darge, Watson), but the club has still to announce the bulk of the first contracts to 16 year olds (Wilson & Stevenson excepted).

 

We are in a situation where the bulk of the B team and U18s aren't going to make at Hearts. Although almost all of these guys are full time, they are being kept on to meet elite academy requirements (field an U18 team) and the staging post that is the B Team.  That all comes at a cost, so Aberdeen's estimate will not be far out. Realistically, only 4 or 5 of last season's B team still have a chance of making it, with the likelihood that only one or two will actually do so.

 

Hearts need a means of retaining and providing meaningful development to the best of their youngsters.  Playing a couple of seasons at tier 5 isn't preparing them for first team football.  At 18/19/20 they need to be playing in Tier 2 or 3, at worst, if they can't initially make the jump to the first team squad. 

 

For those at 16, I'd get them used to the rough and tumble of adult football in the EOS Premier League or similar for a season (Musselburgh, Penicuik, Haddington etc), where they could get  regular game time. It would be better for their development than playing in the U18 league, a bit like the old "S Form".

 

So we've had 63 full time players if you include Humps and Snoddy.

That's ****ing mental!

 

Are we trying to win the league or build a sprawling empire?

[Mikey1874]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

So we've had 63 full time players if you include Humps and Snoddy.

That's ****ing mental!

 

Are we trying to win the league or build a sprawling empire?

 

Here's the first team squad. They said they made it bigger for Europe. Hardly excessive.

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/squads/first-team/playing-squad

[The Treasurer]

4 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

So we've had 63 full time players if you include Humps and Snoddy.

That's ****ing mental!

 

Are we trying to win the league or build a sprawling empire?

You do realise that a lot of those players, while not on minimum wage, won't be earning EPL wages either.

If we get two or three decent first team players from that squad it will be money well spent.

I'm not getting into the debate about the rights or wrongs of B teams but is it really so much different from when Hearts Colts (our 3rd team) was playing in the EoS League years ago ?

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

You do realise that a lot of those players, while not on minimum wage, won't be earning EPL wages either.

If we get two or three decent first team players from that squad it will be money well spent.

I'm not getting into the debate about the rights or wrongs of B teams but is it really so much different from when Hearts Colts (our 3rd team) was playing in the EoS League years ago ?

 

No, it isn't that different from the colts team. But that's pretty much the point, did any players come out of the colts team?

I'm not dumb, of course they're not all on Shankland wages, but I just worry that we're losing sight of the big picture as a club. A reserve side and strategic loans seems like a much more efficient method to me.

 

[The Treasurer]

54 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

No, it isn't that different from the colts team. But that's pretty much the point, did any players come out of the colts team?

I'm not dumb, of course they're not all on Shankland wages, but I just worry that we're losing sight of the big picture as a club. A reserve side and strategic loans seems like a much more efficient method to me.

 

I agree about the reserve team, but the problem is that the SPFL and the clubs can't get their act together and form a decent reserve league (how hard can it be?).

As for players coming out the colts team, off the top of my head , I seem to remember watching Eric Carruthers, Harry Kinnear and Jimmy Cant playing at Redford Barracks (where the colts played their games) but my memory may be playing tricks

[Hungry hippo]

3 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

You do realise that a lot of those players, while not on minimum wage, won't be earning EPL wages either.

If we get two or three decent first team players from that squad it will be money well spent.

I'm not getting into the debate about the rights or wrongs of B teams but is it really so much different from when Hearts Colts (our 3rd team) was playing in the EoS League years ago ?

 

Did we play in the EoS? I remember Hibs doing it.

[Footballfirst]

56 minutes ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

Did we play in the EoS? I remember Hibs doing it.

A Hearts "B" team played in the EOS for 3 seasons starting 1949/50.  The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Heart of Midlothian ‘B’	30	27	2	1	129	36	56
2	Hibernian ‘B’	30	26	1	3	138	30	53
3	Eyemouth United	30	19	2	9	85	52	40
4	Gala Fairydean	29	16	0	13	73	61	32
5	Chirnside United	29	15	2	12	69	56	32
6	Berwick Rangers	30	14	3	13	76	79	31
7	Penicuik Athletic	30	13	4	13	59	64	30
8	Civil Service Strollers	29	13	2	14	67	77	28
9	Selkirk	29	12	3	14	72	95	27
10	Peebles Rovers	26	11	4	11	64	58	26
11	Murrayfield Amateurs	28	10	3	15	62	82	25
12	Edinburgh University	27	10	2	15	56	72	22
13	Coldstream	30	9	2	19	46	102	20
14	Kelso United	30	7	5	18	69	105	19
15	Duns	29	8	1	20	63	101	17
16	Vale of Leithen	30	4	2	24	52	110	10

 

A Hearts "A" team played in the EOS for 4 seasons starting 1969/70. The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Cowdenbeath res	28	20	6	2	83	29	46
2	Arbroath res	27	19	2	6	68	25	40
3	Hawick Royal Albert	28	16	6	6	70	33	38
4	Gala Fairydean	26	16	4	6	59	32	36
5	Heart of Midlothian 'A'	28	16	4	8	66	46	36
6	Eyemouth United	27	13	7	7	62	45	33
7	Vale of Leithen	26	12	8	6	63	45	32
8	Kelso United	28	12	7	9	57	48	31
9	Edinburgh City Police	28	7	5	16	44	59	19
10	Civil Service Strollers	28	8	3	17	55	79	19
11	Postal United	28	8	3	17	41	76	19
12	Edinburgh University	27	6	6	15	40	65	18
13	The Spartans	27	6	4	17	36	68	16
14	Coldstream	27	6	2	19	57	95	14
15	Ferranti Thistle	27	4	6	17	20	72	14

 

[Hungry hippo]

50 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

A Hearts "B" team played in the EOS for 3 seasons starting 1949/50.  The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Heart of Midlothian ‘B’	30	27	2	1	129	36	56
2	Hibernian ‘B’	30	26	1	3	138	30	53
3	Eyemouth United	30	19	2	9	85	52	40
4	Gala Fairydean	29	16	0	13	73	61	32
5	Chirnside United	29	15	2	12	69	56	32
6	Berwick Rangers	30	14	3	13	76	79	31
7	Penicuik Athletic	30	13	4	13	59	64	30
8	Civil Service Strollers	29	13	2	14	67	77	28
9	Selkirk	29	12	3	14	72	95	27
10	Peebles Rovers	26	11	4	11	64	58	26
11	Murrayfield Amateurs	28	10	3	15	62	82	25
12	Edinburgh University	27	10	2	15	56	72	22
13	Coldstream	30	9	2	19	46	102	20
14	Kelso United	30	7	5	18	69	105	19
15	Duns	29	8	1	20	63	101	17
16	Vale of Leithen	30	4	2	24	52	110	10

 

A Hearts "A" team played in the EOS for 4 seasons starting 1969/70. The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Cowdenbeath res	28	20	6	2	83	29	46
2	Arbroath res	27	19	2	6	68	25	40
3	Hawick Royal Albert	28	16	6	6	70	33	38
4	Gala Fairydean	26	16	4	6	59	32	36
5	Heart of Midlothian 'A'	28	16	4	8	66	46	36
6	Eyemouth United	27	13	7	7	62	45	33
7	Vale of Leithen	26	12	8	6	63	45	32
8	Kelso United	28	12	7	9	57	48	31
9	Edinburgh City Police	28	7	5	16	44	59	19
10	Civil Service Strollers	28	8	3	17	55	79	19
11	Postal United	28	8	3	17	41	76	19
12	Edinburgh University	27	6	6	15	40	65	18
13	The Spartans	27	6	4	17	36	68	16
14	Coldstream	27	6	2	19	57	95	14
15	Ferranti Thistle	27	4	6	17	20	72	14

 

 

Great info as always.

[The Treasurer]

2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

A Hearts "B" team played in the EOS for 3 seasons starting 1949/50.  The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Heart of Midlothian ‘B’	30	27	2	1	129	36	56
2	Hibernian ‘B’	30	26	1	3	138	30	53
3	Eyemouth United	30	19	2	9	85	52	40
4	Gala Fairydean	29	16	0	13	73	61	32
5	Chirnside United	29	15	2	12	69	56	32
6	Berwick Rangers	30	14	3	13	76	79	31
7	Penicuik Athletic	30	13	4	13	59	64	30
8	Civil Service Strollers	29	13	2	14	67	77	28
9	Selkirk	29	12	3	14	72	95	27
10	Peebles Rovers	26	11	4	11	64	58	26
11	Murrayfield Amateurs	28	10	3	15	62	82	25
12	Edinburgh University	27	10	2	15	56	72	22
13	Coldstream	30	9	2	19	46	102	20
14	Kelso United	30	7	5	18	69	105	19
15	Duns	29	8	1	20	63	101	17
16	Vale of Leithen	30	4	2	24	52	110	10

 

A Hearts "A" team played in the EOS for 4 seasons starting 1969/70. The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Cowdenbeath res	28	20	6	2	83	29	46
2	Arbroath res	27	19	2	6	68	25	40
3	Hawick Royal Albert	28	16	6	6	70	33	38
4	Gala Fairydean	26	16	4	6	59	32	36
5	Heart of Midlothian 'A'	28	16	4	8	66	46	36
6	Eyemouth United	27	13	7	7	62	45	33
7	Vale of Leithen	26	12	8	6	63	45	32
8	Kelso United	28	12	7	9	57	48	31
9	Edinburgh City Police	28	7	5	16	44	59	19
10	Civil Service Strollers	28	8	3	17	55	79	19
11	Postal United	28	8	3	17	41	76	19
12	Edinburgh University	27	6	6	15	40	65	18
13	The Spartans	27	6	4	17	36	68	16
14	Coldstream	27	6	2	19	57	95	14
15	Ferranti Thistle	27	4	6	17	20	72	14

 

Was Hearts A not just the "official" name for Hearts Colts

[Footballfirst]

3 minutes ago, The Treasurer said:

Was Hearts A not just the "official" name for Hearts Colts

The "B" team in 1949/50 was a colts side. Following WWII and the restart of the Scottish Leagues there was no reserve league, but a "C" division of the SFL in which Hearts "A" played from 1949/50. The "C" division ended in 1954/55,  evolving into a fully fledged Reserve League in 1955/56.

 

The "A" team in 1969/70 was also a colts team as Hearts also had a team in the Reserve League at that time. 

[Jambo in Yorkshire]

8 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The "B" team in 1949/50 was a colts side. Following WWII and the restart of the Scottish Leagues there was no reserve league, but a "C" division of the SFL in which Hearts "A" played from 1949/50. The "C" division ended in 1954/55,  evolving into a fully fledged Reserve League in 1955/56.

 

The "A" team in 1969/70 was also a colts team as Hearts also had a team in the Reserve League at that time. 

Hearts Colts (3rd team) played in the East of Scotland League in 1972/3 season.

Jim Cruikshank played a few times before regaining his first team place and also a few more Scotland caps.

[Chuck Berry]

The whole Conference proposal is an utter shambles, even in the SFA's own documents they highlight how successful Brentford B are, and Croatian B teams.

 

Well, clearly Brentford B don't play any league games for a start, and Croatian have effectively scapped the B system.  This is the level of thinking from Maxwell & Co, the clowns who run our game, thick as mince and dancing to the OF tune with Hearts tagging along.

 

It needs to be opposed at every level - it's an affront to the Pyramid and the 230 odd clubs affected - and I'm severely disappointed that we haven't heart a peep out of FoH or the Board on this.  Other fan owned clubs are consulting their fans.

[Niemi’s gloves]

1 hour ago, Chuck Berry said:

The whole Conference proposal is an utter shambles, even in the SFA's own documents they highlight how successful Brentford B are, and Croatian B teams.

 

Well, clearly Brentford B don't play any league games for a start, and Croatian have effectively scapped the B system.  This is the level of thinking from Maxwell & Co, the clowns who run our game, thick as mince and dancing to the OF tune with Hearts tagging along.

 

It needs to be opposed at every level - it's an affront to the Pyramid and the 230 odd clubs affected - and I'm severely disappointed that we haven't heart a peep out of FoH or the Board on this.  Other fan owned clubs are consulting their fans.

I don’t think that posters on this thread are necessarily representative of Hearts fans in general. If the Board said “this proposal may not be ideal but it’s the best way forward for our youth development” then I think the majority of Hearts fans would support it. The spirit of three years ago is still alive: only Hearts. 
 

Actually I think it makes sense for us to adopt a low profile on the issue. I can’t see any upside in “consulting” fans. 

[Footballfirst]

13 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

I don’t think that posters on this thread are necessarily representative of Hearts fans in general. If the Board said “this proposal may not be ideal but it’s the best way forward for our youth development” then I think the majority of Hearts fans would support it. The spirit of three years ago is still alive: only Hearts. 
 

Actually I think it makes sense for us to adopt a low profile on the issue. I can’t see any upside in “consulting” fans. 

There is no chance of any poll of fans by either the HMFC Board or FOH.

 

It's a bit ironic that Hearts and the fans were so vocal about clubs being disadvantaged by decisions taken about ending the leagues early and clubs' self interest following Covid. 

 

Now that more than 200 clubs will find themselves unilaterally demoted a tier (another promotion away from the SPFL), neither HMFC nor FOH have commented. Self interest anyone?

 

Edit: There are actually two separate issues involved, B Teams and the Conference League. It is possible to support one and oppose the other.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Footballfirst

[Locky]

23 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

A Hearts "B" team played in the EOS for 3 seasons starting 1949/50.  The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Heart of Midlothian ‘B’	30	27	2	1	129	36	56
2	Hibernian ‘B’	30	26	1	3	138	30	53
3	Eyemouth United	30	19	2	9	85	52	40
4	Gala Fairydean	29	16	0	13	73	61	32
5	Chirnside United	29	15	2	12	69	56	32
6	Berwick Rangers	30	14	3	13	76	79	31
7	Penicuik Athletic	30	13	4	13	59	64	30
8	Civil Service Strollers	29	13	2	14	67	77	28
9	Selkirk	29	12	3	14	72	95	27
10	Peebles Rovers	26	11	4	11	64	58	26
11	Murrayfield Amateurs	28	10	3	15	62	82	25
12	Edinburgh University	27	10	2	15	56	72	22
13	Coldstream	30	9	2	19	46	102	20
14	Kelso United	30	7	5	18	69	105	19
15	Duns	29	8	1	20	63	101	17
16	Vale of Leithen	30	4	2	24	52	110	10

 

A Hearts "A" team played in the EOS for 4 seasons starting 1969/70. The table is from the first of those seasons.

1	Cowdenbeath res	28	20	6	2	83	29	46
2	Arbroath res	27	19	2	6	68	25	40
3	Hawick Royal Albert	28	16	6	6	70	33	38
4	Gala Fairydean	26	16	4	6	59	32	36
5	Heart of Midlothian 'A'	28	16	4	8	66	46	36
6	Eyemouth United	27	13	7	7	62	45	33
7	Vale of Leithen	26	12	8	6	63	45	32
8	Kelso United	28	12	7	9	57	48	31
9	Edinburgh City Police	28	7	5	16	44	59	19
10	Civil Service Strollers	28	8	3	17	55	79	19
11	Postal United	28	8	3	17	41	76	19
12	Edinburgh University	27	6	6	15	40	65	18
13	The Spartans	27	6	4	17	36	68	16
14	Coldstream	27	6	2	19	57	95	14
15	Ferranti Thistle	27	4	6	17	20	72	14

 

Where did you find these EoS leagues FF? Found them up until about the late 2000's through Wikipedia, but haven't gone further back. Would love a good look at some old tables.

 

Quite mad to see Hawick Royal Albert sitting 3rd in the table in 1970. Only known them to be rather keek.

[Footballfirst]

12 minutes ago, Locky said:

Where did you find these EoS leagues FF? Found them up until about the late 2000's through Wikipedia, but haven't gone further back. Would love a good look at some old tables.

 

Quite mad to see Hawick Royal Albert sitting 3rd in the table in 1970. Only known them to be rather keek.

You can download the data from http://sfha.org.uk/

 

The excel files are pretty big though.  You will find all the league tables in the Scottish League Database.  The Club Directory is also quite illuminating about teams that have come and gone over the years.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Footballfirst

[Niemi’s gloves]

11 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

There is no chance of any poll of fans by either the HMFC Board or FOH.

 

It's a bit ironic that Hearts and the fans were so vocal about clubs being disadvantaged by decisions taken about ending the leagues early and clubs' self interest following Covid. 

 

Now that more than 200 clubs will find themselves unilaterally demoted a tier (another promotion away from the SPFL), neither HMFC nor FOH have commented. Self interest anyone?

 

Edit: There are actually two separate issues involved, B Teams and the Conference League. It is possible to support one and oppose the other.

 

There’s certainly an irony. But many would draw the conclusion from the events of 2020 that pretty much every club was driven by self interest and why should we be any different subsequently.

 

As you say, the B Teams and the Conference League are in principle separate issues (I support the first as long as Hearts are involved, much less so the second). I think the link is that we hitched ourselves to the OF in order to be admitted to the LL  and are now somewhat caught up in the machinations of the OF.

[Footballfirst]

4 minutes ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

There’s certainly an irony. But many would draw the conclusion from the events of 2020 that pretty much every club was driven by self interest and why should we be any different subsequently.

 

As you say, the B Teams and the Conference League are in principle separate issues (I support the first as long as Hearts are involved, much less so the second). I think the link is that we hitched ourselves to the OF in order to be admitted to the LL  and are now somewhat caught up in the machinations of the OF.

I'm not against B teams in principle, but I am against the way that they were shoehorned into the LL, compromising the integrity of the league.  "Guest" teams that can't be promoted and whose placings are ignored at the end of the season, but not their results, is just plain wrong.  A few years ago they could have entered at the lowest tier and worked their way up, but now with 10 tiers that is not an option.

 

Various pyramid reviews have been undertaken, but none have progressed due to that same self interest and a voting system that places too much power in the hands of semi professional clubs at tiers 3, 4 and 5.  The biggest mistake was for the SPL to merge with the SFL in 2013/14 in order to accommodate a TV deal that included Sevco's journey up the lower leagues.

 

I think that the full time clubs need to break away once again with a new regional structure created (with or without B teams) below that.  

Tier 1 - 12 - SPFL national league (I'd prefer 16)

Tier 2 - 16 - SPFL national league

Tier 3 - 3 x 16 regional leagues (North, East & West - some clubs from L1, L2, HL, LL + B teams?)

Tier 4 - 3 x 16 regional leagues (NR Prem, EOS P  & West P - clubs from HL NRJ, EOS & WOS)

Tier 5 - Feeder leagues (NRJ, NCL), (EOS D1), (WOS D1, SOS)

Tiers 6 & 7 - ditto

 

There is a further debate to be had re B teams in the scenario above. Can they be promoted to the SPFL (No), can they be relegated (Yes), what is the best age restriction if any (U23 + an overage), eligibility to play for the 1st team and B team, scheduling matches on the same day as the 1st team?

[Niemi’s gloves]

13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I'm not against B teams in principle, but I am against the way that they were shoehorned into the LL, compromising the integrity of the league.  "Guest" teams that can't be promoted and whose placings are ignored at the end of the season, but not their results, is just plain wrong.  A few years ago they could have entered at the lowest tier and worked their way up, but now with 10 tiers that is not an option.

 

Various pyramid reviews have been undertaken, but none have progressed due to that same self interest and a voting system that places too much power in the hands of semi professional clubs at tiers 3, 4 and 5.  The biggest mistake was for the SPL to merge with the SFL in 2013/14 in order to accommodate a TV deal that included Sevco's journey up the lower leagues.

 

I think that the full time clubs need to break away once again with a new regional structure created (with or without B teams) below that.  

Tier 1 - 12 - SPFL national league (I'd prefer 16)

Tier 2 - 16 - SPFL national league

Tier 3 - 3 x 16 regional leagues (North, East & West - some clubs from L1, L2, HL, LL + B teams?)

Tier 4 - 3 x 16 regional leagues (NR Prem, EOS P  & West P - clubs from HL NRJ, EOS & WOS)

Tier 5 - Feeder leagues (NRJ, NCL), (EOS D1), (WOS D1, SOS)

Tiers 6 & 7 - ditto

 

There is a further debate to be had re B teams in the scenario above. Can they be promoted to the SPFL (No), can they be relegated (Yes), what is the best age restriction if any (U23 + an overage), eligibility to play for the 1st team and B team, scheduling matches on the same day as the 1st team?

 
Your proposed structure makes a great deal of sense. Sadly, that suggests near-zero probability that it or anything like it will ever see the light of day. 

[Chuck Berry]

1 hour ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

I don’t think that posters on this thread are necessarily representative of Hearts fans in general. If the Board said “this proposal may not be ideal but it’s the best way forward for our youth development” then I think the majority of Hearts fans would support it. The spirit of three years ago is still alive: only Hearts. 
 

Actually I think it makes sense for us to adopt a low profile on the issue. I can’t see any upside in “consulting” fans. 

 

The Well Society, majority shareholders of Motherwell, have just announce they are consulting their members.

[Niemi’s gloves]

36 minutes ago, Chuck Berry said:

 

The Well Society, majority shareholders of Motherwell, have just announce they are consulting their members.

My point was that I don’t see any upside in us (Hearts) consulting fans. “Consultation” happens when it suits somebody to do it. Best for us to keep a low profile and let the OF and SFA take the flack

[Locky]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

You can download the data from http://sfha.org.uk/

 

The excel files are pretty big though.  You will find all the league tables in the Scottish League Database.  The Club Directory is also quite illuminating about teams that have come and gone over the years.

 

Thanks FF.

[Footballfirst]

3 hours ago, Niemi’s gloves said:

 
Your proposed structure makes a great deal of sense. Sadly, that suggests near-zero probability that it or anything like it will ever see the light of day. 

I've had a stab at drawing up what my proposed structure would look like if implemented for the start of next season.

 

 

[Flimsy]

8 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

I've had a stab at drawing up what my proposed structure would look like if implemented for the start of next season.

 

 

Great work. I jotted down something similar a few weeks ago but with different league sizes. I can't see a downside for any club, everyone stays at the same level or jumps up one or two levels. The key would be making sure money filters down to get the league hingers on like Stenhousemuir and Stranraer onside. I doubt there would be many fans anywhere in the country who wouldn't be happy with a proposition like this, possibly even boardrooms too.  It could also esily accommodate B teams. So why isn't it happening?

[Footballfirst]

1 hour ago, Flimsy said:

Great work. I jotted down something similar a few weeks ago but with different league sizes. I can't see a downside for any club, everyone stays at the same level or jumps up one or two levels. The key would be making sure money filters down to get the league hingers on like Stenhousemuir and Stranraer onside. I doubt there would be many fans anywhere in the country who wouldn't be happy with a proposition like this, possibly even boardrooms too.  It could also esily accommodate B teams. So why isn't it happening?

The financial considerations would be the biggest stumbling block for the 14 teams currently in Leagues 1 and 2 who would find themselves in the regionalised at Tier 3.  It would take £2.4m from the SPFL's new £35m a year TV deal to give all teams in Tier 3 £50k each, which is roughly what Club 42 currently receives (HL and LL sides currently receive £0).  I would make uniform payments to the clubs involved and use any league sponsorship to provide merit payments.  For another £1m you could give £20k to every Tier 4 club (none of them get anything currently).  That's less than 10% of the Sky cash allocated, leaving 90% to be spent on Tiers 1 and 2 (£31.6m, which is more than the old Sky deal in total).

 

Promotion and relegation would also need looking at, particularly between tiers 2 and 3. I stand by the principle that if you win your league you should be promoted. The norm for 16 team Leagues is 3 up and 3 down. Having a regionalised structure at tier 3 mans that any solution would have to accommodate anything from 0 to 3 teams being relegated to any individual region while allowing each regional champion to be promoted.  The simplest solution is to relegate more teams at the bottom of tier 3. That would mean an extra 1 or 2 teams relegated, which would be a sore one for those affected, but it would maintain ventilation up and down.  Such a scenario wouldn't be repeated too often for any single region as you would soon run out of clubs from your region in tier 2. 

 

Clubs may complain about lost fixtures. Those could be made up by new cup competitions, sectional or knockout, region and tier specific or cross region and tiers. 

 

Where there's a will, there's a way.  I fear that too many clubs don't have the will for a radical shake-up.

[Footballfirst]

Well done The Spartans.

[John Findlay]

9 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Well done The Spartans.

Indeed. Well deserved.

[Mikey1874]

Incredible achievement. None of us would have predicted that.

 

Spartans seemed to have their golden period a few years ago. Great credit to everyone involved. 

 

Golden era for Edinburgh football.

[Randy Marsh]

Great news. At least Albion Rovers will save money on fuel tokens next season.  Elgin City next please.🤞

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

Great news. At least Albion Rovers will save money on fuel tokens next season.  Elgin City next please.🤞

Or Stranraer or Stenhousemuir. I wonder how many relegations it will take for L2 clubs to realise that opening up relegation/promotion places is in their best interests, not self interest.

[Tommy Brown]

Pleased for Spartans, Albion can GTF.

Sore on Big Sandy though.

 

To keep myself unpopular, would have preferred Brechin.

[Footballfirst]

21 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Indeed. Well deserved.

Here's a name from the relatively recent past, popping up to wish them well.

 

 

[Tommy Brown]

2 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Or Stranraer or Stenhousemuir. I wonder how many relegations it will take for L2 clubs to realise that opening up relegation/promotion places is in their best interests, not self interest.

Why Stranraer? FF.

They were shat on along with us and Partick.

[NannyMaroon]

Spartans would be a decent affiliate team for us. 

[John Findlay]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

Here's a name from the relatively recent past, popping up to wish them well.

 

 

The ex CEO of the SFA. Good on him.

[Footballfirst]

8 minutes ago, Tommy Brown said:

Why Stranraer? FF.

They were shat on along with us and Partick.

I chose the teams that were closest to the bottom of L2, but excluded Bonnyrigg because of their local connection.

[superjack]

Well done Spartans. Has Edinburgh ever had 4 teams in the professional leagues before?

[TrueJambo]

3 minutes ago, superjack said:

Well done Spartans. Has Edinburgh ever had 4 teams in the professional leagues before?

Hearts, hobs, meadobank, civil service just trying to guess if this ever was

[Captain Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, superjack said:

Well done Spartans. Has Edinburgh ever had 4 teams in the professional leagues before?

I’d like to include Bonnyrigg as I’m in Gilmerton and it’s a 3 minute drive plus an EH postcode 😀😀😀

[Footballfirst]

47 minutes ago, superjack said:

Well done Spartans. Has Edinburgh ever had 4 teams in the professional leagues before?

Edinburgh had 5 teams in the league immediately before WW2 and 4 when the leagues restarted.

 

Hearts, Hibs, Leith Athletic, St Bernards and Edinburgh City.  St Bernards didn't resume after the war.