Irving - signs for SK Austria Klagenfurt ( updated )

[Rogue Daddy]

12 hours ago, Jambof3tornado said:

I worry a little about his 1 footed-ness. He often cant get the pass away or has to adjust his stride,but it may be a confidence thing in using his wrong foot.

 

Definitely things that can be worked on.

I thought that against Dunfermline... hadn't really thought about it (or noticed) before then for some reason (not being able to use both feet is usually a bugbear of mine regarding professional footballers these days!). Agree 100% though, definitely needs to work or using his other peg if he's to be the huge success he has the potential to be.

[May one-six]

The longer there's no news on this topic, the more it looks like Irving will be leaving at the end of the season. That would be sad, because he's a class player. I think it's a wee bit early for him to be heading to the big leagues, though he could probably survive okay at English Championship level. It would make sense for him to have a couple of years with us in the Premiership before moving on, but if we can't afford the sort of money he's after there's not a lot we can do about it.

[Rogue Daddy]

12 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Really uninterestingly my dad says when I started playing I was very two footed, he couldn't tell which but because of this coaches tended to play me on the left and I kind of started using it more, taking set pieces only with my left etc, until I was a definite left footer. Fact I'm right handed would bear that out.

Slightly off-topic (well, very), but my dad has a pal that plays golf left-handed but putts right handed!... he didn't even realise until my dad pointed this out only a few years ago (he's had an old Golden Goose putter that's flat on both sides for the last 100 years or so!) Go figure.

 

It never fails to amaze me how many top class players can only 'play' using their dominant foot... every week watching the EPL you see a glaring missed goal that would have been easier to score using a 'weaker' or leading foot, from some multi-billion pound premadonna. Really tears ma knitting!

 

If Irving could develop his weaker foot, he would be some player.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Rogue Daddy

[gorgieheart]

28 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

Aint that the truth!... remember Paul Ritchie? Had just broken into the national squad (and scored on his debut IIRC), Rangers 'snapped him up', didn't get a game, loaned to Wigan (and spent most of his time injured), came back to Rangers and had a handful of sub appearances only to retire early from the game due to his injuries. What a waste. And all in the name of the uglies buying up the 'best of the rest.'

 You mean this Paul Ritchie : 

 

 

Years	Team	Apps	(Gls)
1992–2000	Heart of Midlothian	133	(6)
1999–2000	→ Bolton Wanderers (loan)	14	(0)
2000	Rangers	0	(0)
2000–2003	Manchester City	20	(0)
2002	→ Portsmouth (loan)	12	(0)
2003	→ Derby County (loan)	7	(0)
2003–2004	Walsall	33	(1)
2004–2006	Dundee United	45	(0)
2006–2007	AC Omonia	2	(0)
2009	Carolina RailHawks	1	(0)
Total		267	(7

[Lone Striker]

14 hours ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

We'll be challenging for a European spot next season and we have a realistic chance of silverware every season. What lower league English or even abroad clubs can offer that? Unless you think he's going to go to a top 6 English or European club and straight into the team and not their U23s which is, er, unlikely.

We'd like to think so, Toque - but won't we  have to find a way of beating Livi  & St. Midden  first ?    

[TheBigO]

5 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

Slightly off-topic (well, very), but my dad has a pal that plays golf left-handed but putts right handed!... he didn't even realise until my dad pointed this out only a few years ago (he's had an old Golden Goose putter that's flat on both sides for the last 100 years or so!) Go figure.

 

It never fails to amaze me how many top class players can only 'play' using their dominant foot... every week watching the EPL you see a glaring missed goal that would have been easier to score using a 'weaker' or leading foot, from some multi-billion pound premadonna. Really tears ma knitting!

 

If Irving could develop his weaker foot, he would be some player.

Oh aye, don't get me wrong on Irving or anyone else.  Being truly 2 footed is an amazing thing.  One of Hickey's great attributes.  Of course some people are straight up ambidextrous and that must help but, like you say, when someone is so one-footed in hinders their play, even at the top level, it drives me mad.  He's a lefty, but the number of chances Steven Fletcher missed for Scotland by refusing to use his right, some every important moments too.  Robbie Keane always amazed me how one-footed he was (no one ever mentioned it cos he was right footed of course!!! haha).

 

There's stuff at top level football that do annoy me like that.  I mean, favour your better side, of course as it'll reap better results, but if it falls on the other side, have a swing, man!!  Have you not practiced?

 

Another one is set pieces.  I don't go for the "a professional should be scoring from there/score every penalty" but I was amateur and took very good corners and the majority of my freekicks were dangerous and on or very near target, and I was far from alone in my team in that respect.  Pros whose corners are duff and whose free kicks hid the midriff of the wall... I actually don't get it.  Pressure I guess.  To me it's laziness.

 

Anyway back on topic.  From what I've heard of Andy (he's quite local to me), he's a very very hard worker, so I'm pretty sure aspects such as weak foot and set pieces are things that will develop as he does.

[jr ewing]

11 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Oh aye, don't get me wrong on Irving or anyone else.  Being truly 2 footed is an amazing thing.  One of Hickey's great attributes.  Of course some people are straight up ambidextrous and that must help but, like you say, when someone is so one-footed in hinders their play, even at the top level, it drives me mad.  He's a lefty, but the number of chances Steven Fletcher missed for Scotland by refusing to use his right, some every important moments too.  Robbie Keane always amazed me how one-footed he was (no one ever mentioned it cos he was right footed of course!!! haha).

 

There's stuff at top level football that do annoy me like that.  I mean, favour your better side, of course as it'll reap better results, but if it falls on the other side, have a swing, man!!  Have you not practiced?

 

Another one is set pieces.  I don't go for the "a professional should be scoring from there/score every penalty" but I was amateur and took very good corners and the majority of my freekicks were dangerous and on or very near target, and I was far from alone in my team in that respect.  Pros whose corners are duff and whose free kicks hid the midriff of the wall... I actually don't get it.  Pressure I guess.  To me it's laziness.

 

Anyway back on topic.  From what I've heard of Andy (he's quite local to me), he's a very very hard worker, so I'm pretty sure aspects such as weak foot and set pieces are things that will develop as he does.

Maybe just the thought of not having to play on plastic pitches anymore. Bliss. 

[Rogue Daddy]

36 minutes ago, gorgieheart said:

 You mean this Paul Ritchie : 

 

 

Years	Team	Apps	(Gls)
1992–2000	Heart of Midlothian	133	(6)
1999–2000	→ Bolton Wanderers (loan)	14	(0)
2000	Rangers	0	(0)
2000–2003	Manchester City	20	(0)
2002	→ Portsmouth (loan)	12	(0)
2003	→ Derby County (loan)	7	(0)
2003–2004	Walsall	33	(1)
2004–2006	Dundee United	45	(0)
2006–2007	AC Omonia	2	(0)
2009	Carolina RailHawks	1	(0)
Total		267	(7

No. Completely different Paul Ritchie.

 

 

......partially right. Didn't kick a ball for the gers. Could've sworn he went back to Rangers and was on loan all that time.  

That'll teach me to spout ma pish from memory.

[gorgieheart]

9 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

No. Completely different Paul Ritchie.

 

 

......partially right. Didn't kick a ball for the gers. Could've sworn he went back to Rangers and was on loan all that time.  

That'll teach me to spout ma pish from memory.

 

Happens to the best of us, i only checked because i could have swore he played for Man City at one point  🙂

[Fxxx the SPFL]

40 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Oh aye, don't get me wrong on Irving or anyone else.  Being truly 2 footed is an amazing thing.  One of Hickey's great attributes.  Of course some people are straight up ambidextrous and that must help but, like you say, when someone is so one-footed in hinders their play, even at the top level, it drives me mad.  He's a lefty, but the number of chances Steven Fletcher missed for Scotland by refusing to use his right, some every important moments too.  Robbie Keane always amazed me how one-footed he was (no one ever mentioned it cos he was right footed of course!!! haha).

 

There's stuff at top level football that do annoy me like that.  I mean, favour your better side, of course as it'll reap better results, but if it falls on the other side, have a swing, man!!  Have you not practiced?

 

Another one is set pieces.  I don't go for the "a professional should be scoring from there/score every penalty" but I was amateur and took very good corners and the majority of my freekicks were dangerous and on or very near target, and I was far from alone in my team in that respect.  Pros whose corners are duff and whose free kicks hid the midriff of the wall... I actually don't get it.  Pressure I guess.  To me it's laziness.

 

Anyway back on topic.  From what I've heard of Andy (he's quite local to me), he's a very very hard worker, so I'm pretty sure aspects such as weak foot and set pieces are things that will develop as he does.

go round to his hoose and tell him to sign

[Rogue Daddy]

3 minutes ago, gorgieheart said:

 

Happens to the best of us, i only checked because i could have swore he played for Man City at one point  🙂

👍... as soon as I seen Dundee Utd 😳 forgot all about that!

[Deevers]

5 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

👍... as soon as I seen Dundee Utd 😳 forgot all about that!

Never the same player after he left us. 

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

Duh because we have missed the boat, last season should have been sorted.

What, make him sign a contract? 

How do you do that? 

[jr ewing]

1 minute ago, Smith's right boot said:

What, make him sign a contract? 

How do you do that? 

Give him an offer he can't refuse. 

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Ach you know, is playing in the qualifying rounds of non champions league Europe really a big deal for an ambitious player ? Does it get you noticed ?

 

When it boils down to it, no matter how we feel about our club and what’s really best for it, this is about what is best for Andy Irving’s bank balance. You don’t turn down opportunities to earn big bucks in this game. You take the chance when it’s offered as it might never come again. Very few players put loyalty and gratitude first. Very few even think about the best course for overall career development. Put £10k + a week on the table and 99% are taking it even if it means you’ve got nothing tangible to show for your career except your bank balance. £10k a week for 3 or 4 years means you never have to worry about money again in your life.

 

Agree, but unsure Irving will be getting any life changing offers Tbh, if he is then you are correct, he's gone and it explains why he's not signed an extension. 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, jr ewing said:

Give him an offer he can't refuse. 

 

Still not an answer. 

 

 

[Ari Gold]

2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

What, make him sign a contract? 

How do you do that? 

Convince him it's the right place for him to get better. Pay him accordingly also. 

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, Ari Gold said:

Convince him it's the right place for him to get better. Pay him accordingly also. 

 

Still not an answer. 

 

If he's not convinced now, he never will be. 

 

Pay him what? 

£1k,£3k,£6k, £10k/ week?

 

Maybe we've offered him Good terms already? 

[indianajones]

A PHM would sign on the dotted line and realise its a great opportunity/platform to get the head down and impress on a weekly basis. 

 

A move wouldn't be far away after that. 

[GinRummy]

12 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Give him an offer he can't refuse. 

Pure Don Corleone style but with Lee McCulloch’s teeth lying on his pillow. 

[Ari Gold]

12 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Still not an answer. 

 

If he's not convinced now, he never will be. 

 

Pay him what? 

£1k,£3k,£6k, £10k/ week?

 

Maybe we've offered him Good terms already? 

As I've said to you before if the club are looking to make use of the academy then they need to ensure good academy players are signed up. Be more proactive in terns if getting contracts renewed earlier. You either trust the way to you want to go with the academy or you continue to half arse it and lose players for low fees. 

 

Even the fee for Hickey was low. 

[Lfhearts]

26 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Give him an offer he can't refuse. 

Exactly smiths is a bit  "defend the club at all costs" and it gets boring after his thousandth post. The other option of course would have been sign a new contract or you don't play bearing in mind the cost of his development.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Lfhearts

[Bazzas right boot]

22 minutes ago, Ari Gold said:

As I've said to you before if the club are looking to make use of the academy then they need to ensure good academy players are signed up. Be more proactive in terns if getting contracts renewed earlier. You either trust the way to you want to go with the academy or you continue to half arse it and lose players for low fees. 

 

Even the fee for Hickey was low. 

 

The academy is a different discussion, but you can't make, players sign a contract. 

Hickey wouldn't sign and now it looks like Irving won't. Patterson and Holt before them refused as well. 

It's just shite. 

 

IMO the academy should be scaled back and we should focus our interests in players released from bigger clubs, the age 18-21/22 ish category along with transfers firm other clubs. 

 

 

Players are selfish, if they get a whiff of a better offer they won't extend thier contract so we get little football or financial benefit. 

 

If they are average or poor they extend but end up being a bit part player or we don't extend. 

Same for every club, players that extend knowing they'll help the club are few and far between. McGinn, McKenna, Cosgrove, but they weren't youth players at the clubs the done this at either. 

 

Not convinced developing players from kids is helpful to the footballing side. 

 

We'd need to keep some kind of gig going for community and encouraging young  fans, but it should be minimal imo. 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

22 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

Exactly smiths is a bit  "defend the club at all costs" and it gets boring after his thousandth post. The other option of course would have been sign a new contract or you don't play bearing in mind the cost of his development.

 

"defend the club at all costs" is better than being as thick as mince and having no substance to your posts, ever. 

That also gets boring. 

 

"Sign a contract or you don't play" ... You've thought that one through.🤣

 

No long term issues for the player, future players or the club with that philosophy... 

 

You've went from offering the lad the best deal ever, blaming the club to sign or **** off on the same thread. 

Where you part of the tory Party brexit negotiations? 

[Ari Gold]

Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

The academy is a different discussion, but you can't make, players sign a contract. 

Hickey wouldn't sign and now it looks like Irving won't. Patterson and Holt before them refused as well. 

It's just shite. 

 

IMO the academy should be scaled back and we should focus our interests in players released from bigger clubs, the age 18-21/22 ish category along with transfers firm other clubs. 

 

 

Players are selfish, if they get a whiff of a better offer they won't extend thier contract so we get little football or financial benefit. 

 

If they are average or poor they extend but end up being a bit part player or we don't extend. 

Same for every club, players that extend knowing they'll help the club are few and far between. McGinn, McKenna, Cosgrove, but they weren't youth players at the clubs the done this at either. 

 

Not convinced developing players from kids is helpful to the footballing side. 

 

We'd need to keep some kind of gig going for community and encouraging young  fans, but it should be minimal imo. 

 

It shows something isn't right in terms of getting good young players signed up. This isn't a one off which is why folk get frustrated. 

 

Being in the position we are in the grand scheme of football, we need to be quick at identifying the young players we are going to give fame time too with the view of selling them on for decent money. It's a skill, not just luck. 

 

It can be done. Clubs in Croatia, Sweden, Denmark, Serbia have all sold young players for really good money. They've managed to get them signed up early. 

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

50 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

The academy is a different discussion, but you can't make, players sign a contract. 

Hickey wouldn't sign and now it looks like Irving won't. Patterson and Holt before them refused as well. 

It's just shite. 

 

IMO the academy should be scaled back and we should focus our interests in players released from bigger clubs, the age 18-21/22 ish category along with transfers firm other clubs. 

 

 

Players are selfish, if they get a whiff of a better offer they won't extend thier contract so we get little football or financial benefit. 

 

If they are average or poor they extend but end up being a bit part player or we don't extend. 

Same for every club, players that extend knowing they'll help the club are few and far between. McGinn, McKenna, Cosgrove, but they weren't youth players at the clubs the done this at either. 

 

Not convinced developing players from kids is helpful to the footballing side. 

 

We'd need to keep some kind of gig going for community and encouraging young  fans, but it should be minimal imo. 

 

 

I understand that view, but I think there is definitely a lack of foresight at the club. Promising player's contract should be reviewed with 2 years remaining on them, so to do that our top schoolboy players need to be offered min. 3 year deals in their first professional deals, otherwise the player holds all the bargaining power. It will cost the club to renew young player's contracts in this manner but it's nothing compared to the fees we should have got for Paterson, Nicholson, Walker Hickey et al.

[Colonel Kurtz]

1 hour ago, jr ewing said:

Give him an offer he can't refuse. 

getting Khartoum from the stable as we speak

[TheBigO]

Just now, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

I understand that view, but I think there is definitely a lack of foresight at the club. Promising player's contract should be reviewed with 2 years remaining on them, so to do that our top schoolboy players need to be offered min. 3 year deals in their first professional deals, otherwise the player holds all the bargaining power. It will cost the club to renew young player's contracts in this manner but it's nothing compared to the fees we should have got for Paterson, Nicholson, Walker Hickey et al.

It doesn't help that a player can't be offered a contact until age 17.

 

It means you are always in this situation to an extent or certainly the one with Hickey, whereby you're essentially trying to offer the lad a new contract not long after his first one.

 

That said, we do need to identify those we want to hang our hat on and try to sign them up before they have notoriety.  I would have thought Irving was a banker as far as what he was likely to achieve.  You may only be kicking the can down the road a bit, but say he was on a contract until end of next season, we have a bit of breathing room.

[JimmyCant]

1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Agree, but unsure Irving will be getting any life changing offers Tbh, if he is then you are correct, he's gone and it explains why he's not signed an extension. 

 

 

I think you could be right. He doesn’t have that many games under his belt, but then neither did Hickey. You just can’t trust agents to do what’s best here. I think he’d benefit from signing a 3-4 year deal, knowing that in 2 years if he progresses, the number of clubs interested would be infinitely more. If he has a release clause and we have a sell on clause we can live with, everyone’s a winner. 
 

His agent will probably have been in his ear about what Birmingham and QPR and the like will pay him as a development project and he’ll end up on loan at Gillingham, forgotten about but on £8k a week till his agent gets him back up to Motherwell or somewhere.

 

Sad but you can see it coming for the laddie if he goes too soon

[Riccarton3]

 development fees are inadequate, or the whole concept is. Why this is, I don't know.  Revision of these would help remove some inequality and properly reward clubs that consistently bring through young players

Edited February 3, 2021 by Riccarton3

[Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine]

7 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

It doesn't help that a player can't be offered a contact until age 17.

 

It means you are always in this situation to an extent or certainly the one with Hickey, whereby you're essentially trying to offer the lad a new contract not long after his first one.

 

That said, we do need to identify those we want to hang our hat on and try to sign them up before they have notoriety.  I would have thought Irving was a banker as far as what he was likely to achieve.  You may only be kicking the can down the road a bit, but say he was on a contract until end of next season, we have a bit of breathing room.

 

Aye I hadn't considered that they had to be 17 to sign a deal. I suppose, as with many youngsters, deals for players younger than that can be agreed in principle to kick in when they turn 17.

 

Exactly that mate with signing them up early, and if they don't pan out it's hardly difficult to move these sorts of players on. It just comes down to the club lacking foresight, to see more than one season ahead, which ultimately what we need to do to build a team capable of 3rd in the top league.

[TheBigO]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

I think you could be right. He doesn’t have that many games under his belt, but then neither did Hickey. You just can’t trust agents to do what’s best here. I think he’d benefit from signing a 3-4 year deal, knowing that in 2 years if he progresses, the number of clubs interested would be infinitely more. If he has a release clause and we have a sell on clause we can live with, everyone’s a winner. 
 

His agent will probably have been in his ear about what Birmingham and QPR and the like will pay him as a development project and he’ll end up on loan at Gillingham, forgotten about but on £8k a week till his agent gets him back up to Motherwell or somewhere.

 

Sad but you can see it coming for the laddie if he goes too soon

You'd like to think guys look at career paths like John McGinn, get a name for yourself and earn a move to a team down south/away when you are ready to be a starter there.  I guess if, I duno, Brentford come in, have seen Andy, like him and say he's part of their matchday squad each week, there's not much we can do - good on him

 

You just hope that if he has another offer which is only financially better, he takes the longterm approach on this.  3 year deal, challenge yourself to be the best midfielder in Scotland the next 2 seasons and the world's your oyster.  Thanks Southampton, yes you can have him for £7M.  Well done Andy, you deserve it.

[TheBigO]

6 minutes ago, Juho_Makela_Goal_Machine said:

 

Aye I hadn't considered that they had to be 17 to sign a deal. I suppose, as with many youngsters, deals for players younger than that can be agreed in principle to kick in when they turn 17.

 

Exactly that mate with signing them up early, and if they don't pan out it's hardly difficult to move these sorts of players on. It just comes down to the club lacking foresight, to see more than one season ahead, which ultimately what we need to do to build a team capable of 3rd in the top league.

Can only hope having Joe Savage in place gives us better oversight and we start to see this.

 

There's no science to it.  At the end of the day, you can't make a player sign a contract.  You just hope we have proper plans in place for how we approach these situations.

 

There's a thing about setting or not wanting to set precedent, depending which way you look at it too.  Give him somehting special - next kid wants it.  Don't give him something special, what are the kids aiming for then?  Not easy.

 

You're totally beholden to the player's advisors at the end of the day.

[JimmyCant]

15 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

You'd like to think guys look at career paths like John McGinn, get a name for yourself and earn a move to a team down south/away when you are ready to be a starter there.  I guess if, I duno, Brentford come in, have seen Andy, like him and say he's part of their matchday squad each week, there's not much we can do - good on him

 

You just hope that if he has another offer which is only financially better, he takes the longterm approach on this.  3 year deal, challenge yourself to be the best midfielder in Scotland the next 2 seasons and the world's your oyster.  Thanks Southampton, yes you can have him for £7M.  Well done Andy, you deserve it.

That only works if he thinks that within a year or so,  Hearts are going to be a right good side right up there top 4. And he’s going to get the kind of blanket coverage McGinn got. It’s not going to work the way he wants if we’re loitering about mid table or battling relegation week in week out. Maybe he doesn’t think we can get up there quickly enough to suit him ? Whereas if he goes to a championship side with a genuine chance, he’ll be noticed more and be on huge money for it.

 

Pretty sure his agent will have a selection of clubs he could potentially go to, otherwise why not just get in to Hearts, negotiate properly, get the best deal for your client, and feck off till the next time he needs a fecking parasite to help him 😂 

Edited February 3, 2021 by JimmyCant

[Berra than you]

37 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

 development fees are inadequate, or the whole concept is. Why this is, I don't know.  Revision of these would help remove some inequality and properly reward clubs that consistently bring through young players

Might also encourage younger players to sign longer contracts. I.e. if development fees are higher, buying clubs night be less willing to pay them, so you get to keep your good young players longer and either get a good fee, or a better development fee after a longer period.

[JimmyCant]

9 minutes ago, Berra than you said:

Might also encourage younger players to sign longer contracts. I.e. if development fees are higher, buying clubs night be less willing to pay them, so you get to keep your good young players longer and either get a good fee, or a better development fee after a longer period.

Completely separate and controversial topic but something has to change with our academy and youth progression in general that stops big clubs effectively having players trained up for them and picking them up for next to nothing. I’ve said before we should seriously consider whether we need an academy given how poorly it works for us, but hey, another subject for another day.

[Berra than you]

15 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Completely separate and controversial topic but something has to change with our academy and youth progression in general that stops big clubs effectively having players trained up for them and picking them up for next to nothing. I’ve said before we should seriously consider whether we need an academy given how poorly it works for us, but hey, another subject for another day.

Yeah it's a tough one. The main probelm I find with academies is that they take time to work properly, so if you make big changes you never know if it works until several years later. It's a catch 22 as you run the risk of changing things too soon as it's about to bare fruit, or you wait too long and nothing happens. But yeah that's another topic altogether haha.

[TheBigO]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

That only works if he thinks that within a year or so,  Hearts are going to be a right good side right up there top 4. And he’s going to get the kind of blanket coverage McGinn got. It’s not going to work the way he wants if we’re loitering about mid table or battling relegation week in week out. Maybe he doesn’t think we can get up there quickly enough to suit him ? Whereas if he goes to a championship side with a genuine chance, he’ll be noticed more and be on huge money for it.

 

Pretty sure his agent will have a selection of clubs he could potentially go to, otherwise why not just get in to Hearts, negotiate properly, get the best deal for your client, and feck off till the next time he needs a fecking parasite to help him 😂 

Ha ha.  You're right there.  You do get good agents, by the way, I've known a couple at differing levels (including a guy who was agent to some huge names - Eduardo of Brazil and whole bunch of other European based Brazilians - I was his English teacher for a year on an off and he was a top guy who really really cared about his boys - weird who you meet in some jobs!!)

 

You are probably also right about needing to match his ambition.  I think signing lads like GMS, McEneff, Nando and Kingsley signing on you'd hope would be a good sign in that respect.  Not much more you can do than put your money where your mouth is when it comes to ambition.

 

Look, we don't know where they're at either in the process, and certainly not in their heads!  What will be will be.

 

I guess my point (and everyone's really) is that we need to hope we have some kind of plan when it comes to these things.  Of course you can't make humans conform to your plan - damn employment laws! - but we hope the club have a strategy on how to progress youngsters, but also how to protect the club so we get the most of them on and off the park.  Now, my guess is they'd say they have a plan in place.  The truth is more likely Joe Savage is about to implement one!

[TheBigO]

27 minutes ago, Berra than you said:

Yeah it's a tough one. The main probelm I find with academies is that they take time to work properly, so if you make big changes you never know if it works until several years later. It's a catch 22 as you run the risk of changing things too soon as it's about to bare fruit, or you wait too long and nothing happens. But yeah that's another topic altogether haha.

For me you need a real solid base at your club.  So the manager can change, but the structure never does.

 

Otherwise as you describe, you never see the benefits of any change - you only ever get the theory.

 

It's like government in a way - they just say what they need to to get in.  Change never really happens as you just work election to election...

 

I personally would rather we just nailed the academy structure.  For me, football is all about the dream.  My dream is that Hearts are the team to end the OF domination.  For me, the most likely way of doing so is a fruitful academy and sprinkling of smart recruitment.  Otherwise, you're just plodding along like the rest really.  Don't get me wrong, teams in Scotland produce players - Hamilton, Motherwell, Aberdeen all pretty well recently, Hibs, ourselves, Dundee United.  You know, it happens.  But someone to really do it - you know, Ajax the shit out of it - really do something special.

 

Like you say, the hard part is you don't know if it's working for years.  It's a hind sight business!!

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, Ari Gold said:

It shows something isn't right in terms of getting good young players signed up. This isn't a one off which is why folk get frustrated. 

 

Being in the position we are in the grand scheme of football, we need to be quick at identifying the young players we are going to give fame time too with the view of selling them on for decent money. It's a skill, not just luck. 

 

It can be done. Clubs in Croatia, Sweden, Denmark, Serbia have all sold young players for really good money. They've managed to get them signed up early. 

 

 

You can't chuck £3/4k at a 16 year old tho. 

 

They can't sign longer contract until 17/18, so it's all a bit shite. 

 

I can't think of a club in Scotland that regularly sells their own young players Tbh. 

 

Better looking at  released players from England from the ages 18 ish to maybe 21/22 that have bounced about on  loan, many make decent championship players and some even go back to the top flight a few years later 

 

Also, going after the " smaller" clubs players up here that are young but played a fair bit. 

 

I'd also look  at tie in with a big English team. 

Maybe we will if we are in about cup finals and European places regularly. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Smith's right boot

[Lfhearts]

3 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

"defend the club at all costs" is better than being as thick as mince and having no substance to your posts, ever. 

That also gets boring. 

 

"Sign a contract or you don't play" ... You've thought that one through.🤣

 

No long term issues for the player, future players or the club with that philosophy... 

 

You've went from offering the lad the best deal ever, blaming the club to sign or **** off on the same thread. 

Where you part of the tory Party brexit negotiations? 

That's quite insulting but anyway on you go with another post as you are just wonderful, zzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Bazzas right boot]

2 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

That's quite insulting but anyway on you go with another post as you are just wonderful, zzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

Stones, glass houses. 

 

 

[Lfhearts]

37 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Stones, glass houses. 

 

 

Square peg in a round hole.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

8 hours ago, SUTOL said:

 

What if he didn't want to sign an extension last season? 

Some fans still buy into the Jim McLean way of doing things with young players. Basically slave labour. Remember meeting a guy who was a youth player at Utd in that era (never really made it) and the stories of the way they were treated are something else.

 

We can't force people to sign and we have to stick to a wage structure. All we can do is appeal to the player's common sense. At the end of the day if Irving, or more likely his agent, doesn't see the opportunity at Hearts right now in terms of developing as a player over the next 2 or 3 years then do we really want him?

 

Either he really is a good player and he'll get better and will get a move like Armstrong, Turnbull, etc did in their early 20s, or he won't get a move later which means he wasn't as good as everyone thought after all. If he grabs the first chance to make more money, and moves to a middling lower league club in England, that suggests he doesn't think he's good enough to get a move at 23. If a move abroad is really on the cards that's different as they don't come along so often. I'd be surprised if he moved and was an automatic starter like he is with us though. At the end of a day he's had about 40 games, and most of his starts have been in lower league Scottish football.

[OTT]

This is why we need to be more responsible about letting youngsters run into their final 12 months. Sure, it means you can let the ones who aren't good enough go, but you're up shit creek if they're looking half decent. We need to be far more on it with regards to ensuring the club isn't exposed. Very possible we could have got Andy signed up at the beginning of the season alongside Henderson and Moore, dodging this whole shitshow. 

 

Its not an exact science, and no one has a crystal ball, so getting things 100% right all of the time isn't possible, but it feels like we've been getting pretty close to everything wrong in regards to youth development. We're not producing players capable of playing in the Championship, let alone the top flight. Which I find really concerning. I'm not saying that Moore or Henderson (or Currie, or Morrison etc.) don't have really good technical ability, they do. But for some reason they aren't making the step up where Walker, King, Nicholson, Holt, Carrick, McGowan, McKay, etc. all did. I think thats more to do with how the club is handling their transition into the first team, but the lack of success since 2014 in bringing anyone into the first team has been atrocious and really warrants further inspection. Yes Romanov gutted the academy, 7 years ago. 

 

I think @Smith's right boothit onto a very good point about targeting youngsters getting turfed out of big clubs aged 18-22. Its unlikely we'll get the cream of the crop, but unlike the other clubs likely to be feeding off these scraps, we can offer first team football more often than not. So its certainly an idea. You're also not stung with not being allowed to offer a long term contract because of age. In terms of squad make up I really want to see us trying to push out the pish journeymen that so often make Scottish football their home. I'm not for a minute saying zero, but we should be picky because these are the guys with almost zero sell on potential, when it comes to them we shouldn't be taking gambles, let St Mirren or Motherwell be the clubs to take gambles and pinch their best on frees, weakens them we get tried and tested players. If we can instead go for more experienced heads in the calibre of Gordon, Naismith, Berra, Hughes, Whelan types (Obviously Whelan's attitude was stinking and was a bad call as he wasn't prepared to move up here etc.) supplemented with a heavier reliance on young players with us being able to bring in a lad or two up from down south if the youth system isn't doing the job sufficiently. 

 

I don't think you can build a squad of 30somethings and teenagers, but I do think we can do far better in going to our academy before the transfer market. This Lewis Moore situation really frustrates me, is the lad good enough? Absolutely not. Is he better than Frear? yes. Is he better than Roberts? Yes. Was he showing signs of improvement last season? Yes. Its what worries me. Our academy becomes redundant if we're only interested in signing journeymen to deal with the short term. We need to be thinking longer term, we're not Man Utd, our coaches can get the time they need to get it right (as long as they actually get it right!). 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

7 hours ago, gorgieheart said:

 You mean this Paul Ritchie : 

 

 

Years	Team	Apps	(Gls)
1992–2000	Heart of Midlothian	133	(6)
1999–2000	→ Bolton Wanderers (loan)	14	(0)
2000	Rangers	0	(0)
2000–2003	Manchester City	20	(0)
2002	→ Portsmouth (loan)	12	(0)
2003	→ Derby County (loan)	7	(0)
2003–2004	Walsall	33	(1)
2004–2006	Dundee United	45	(0)
2006–2007	AC Omonia	2	(0)
2009	Carolina RailHawks	1	(0)
Total		267	(7

 

 

Andy Webster is another good one. But let's face it there are dozens of examples. 

 

Full name	Andrew Neil Webster[1]
Date of birth	23 April 1982 (age 38)
Place of birth	Dundee, Scotland
Position(s)	Centre back
Senior career*
Years	Team	Apps	(Gls)
1999–2001	Arbroath	17	(1)
2001–2006	Heart of Midlothian	149	(6)
2006–2008	Wigan Athletic	4	(0)
2007–2008	→ Rangers (loan)	1	(1)
2008–2011	Rangers	1	(0)
2008	→ Bristol City (loan)	5	(0)
2009–2010	→ Dundee United (loan)	26	(3)
2011–2013	Heart of Midlothian	73	(5)
2013–2015	Coventry City	71	(2)
2015–2017	St Mirren	47	(0)
Total		394	(18)
National team
2003	Scotland U21[2]	2	(0)
2003–2009	Scotland B[3]	5	(1)
2003–2013	Scotland[4]	28	(1

 

[jr ewing]

5 minutes ago, OTT said:

This is why we need to be more responsible about letting youngsters run into their final 12 months. Sure, it means you can let the ones who aren't good enough go, but you're up shit creek if they're looking half decent. We need to be far more on it with regards to ensuring the club isn't exposed. Very possible we could have got Andy signed up at the beginning of the season alongside Henderson and Moore, dodging this whole shitshow. 

 

Its not an exact science, and no one has a crystal ball, so getting things 100% right all of the time isn't possible, but it feels like we've been getting pretty close to everything wrong in regards to youth development. We're not producing players capable of playing in the Championship, let alone the top flight. Which I find really concerning. I'm not saying that Moore or Henderson (or Currie, or Morrison etc.) don't have really good technical ability, they do. But for some reason they aren't making the step up where Walker, King, Nicholson, Holt, Carrick, McGowan, McKay, etc. all did. I think thats more to do with how the club is handling their transition into the first team, but the lack of success since 2014 in bringing anyone into the first team has been atrocious and really warrants further inspection. Yes Romanov gutted the academy, 7 years ago. 

 

I think @Smith's right boothit onto a very good point about targeting youngsters getting turfed out of big clubs aged 18-22. Its unlikely we'll get the cream of the crop, but unlike the other clubs likely to be feeding off these scraps, we can offer first team football more often than not. So its certainly an idea. You're also not stung with not being allowed to offer a long term contract because of age. In terms of squad make up I really want to see us trying to push out the pish journeymen that so often make Scottish football their home. I'm not for a minute saying zero, but we should be picky because these are the guys with almost zero sell on potential, when it comes to them we shouldn't be taking gambles, let St Mirren or Motherwell be the clubs to take gambles and pinch their best on frees, weakens them we get tried and tested players. If we can instead go for more experienced heads in the calibre of Gordon, Naismith, Berra, Hughes, Whelan types (Obviously Whelan's attitude was stinking and was a bad call as he wasn't prepared to move up here etc.) supplemented with a heavier reliance on young players with us being able to bring in a lad or two up from down south if the youth system isn't doing the job sufficiently. 

 

I don't think you can build a squad of 30somethings and teenagers, but I do think we can do far better in going to our academy before the transfer market. This Lewis Moore situation really frustrates me, is the lad good enough? Absolutely not. Is he better than Frear? yes. Is he better than Roberts? Yes. Was he showing signs of improvement last season? Yes. Its what worries me. Our academy becomes redundant if we're only interested in signing journeymen to deal with the short term. We need to be thinking longer term, we're not Man Utd, our coaches can get the time they need to get it right (as long as they actually get it right!). 

Have our standards dropped?  Definitely. 

[jr ewing]

3 hours ago, Colonel Kurtz said:

getting Khartoum from the stable as we speak

Very good 👏

[JimmyCant]

3 hours ago, Berra than you said:

Yeah it's a tough one. The main probelm I find with academies is that they take time to work properly, so if you make big changes you never know if it works until several years later. It's a catch 22 as you run the risk of changing things too soon as it's about to bare fruit, or you wait too long and nothing happens. But yeah that's another topic altogether haha.

I wonder if a National Academy would work. Admit 100 youngsters per year with quality coaching and allocate them L1 and L2 clubs for competitive football, then at the end of two or three years the ‘survivors’ are divided up in a ‘draft pick’ type scenario similar to the NFL. Easy and cheaper to finance. No one loses kids they have developed anymore and who knows you might get an improvement in overall quality.

Edited February 3, 2021 by JimmyCant

[brunstanejambo]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

I wonder if a National Academy would work. Admit 100 youngsters per year with quality coaching and allocate them L1 and L2 clubs for competitive football, then at the end of two or three years the ‘survivors’ are divided up in a ‘draft pick’ type scenario similar to the NFL. Easy and cheaper to finance. No one loses kids they have developed anymore and who knows you might get an improvement in overall quality.

I've often thought that a US style collegue/draft system would be a great model for developing players in Scotland, but assume that it would/could never work due to employment laws in the UK/Europe and the fact that all clubs are selfish and greedy and want to discover/develop the next Lionel Messi themselves. 

 

We've got, what - 10-12 decent sized universities in Scotland that could each have squads of 20 players per year getting a good football and academic education from the ages of 17-21. That would be a pool of about 200 players a year available to be drafted into pro teams. Not saying that you would get that many good enough to play in the top division every year but I'm convinced it would give a better pathway for more players in Scotland. 

Stirling and Edinburgh Uni's already have their first teams playing in the lowland league, so why can't the likes of Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Napier, St Andrews etc all have teams at that level (or higher) too? 

 

Up until a few years ago I used to coach youth and u20 teams and it was depressing seeing so many kids swooped up by pro-youth teams at 10/11 years old, only to spend 8-9 years in the system and then get binned at 18-19 giving up football all together.

The system in Scotland needs to change. 

 

Verging on a rant, so back on topic - Irving is a great player and fanatic prospect so I hope that he signs as I love watching homegrown players in maroon and we haven't seen enough of them with his quality and ability coming through in recent years. 

If he doesn't sign and goes elsewhere though he's being no more greedy or selfish than every other player and club in Scotland/UK/Europe.

For every Andy Irving that leaves for free, there are probably about 100 that are let go without a second thought.