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Champions League 2020/21


Morgan

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Pasquale for King

Another dodgy penalty, 27 in 43 games and a handball goal still wasn’t enough for a team that’s spent £1b since Ferguson left. Europa league against, Hilarious 😆😂

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Nunya Business
3 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

Isn't that exactly what you are doing?

 

I'm uneasy about the 4th official being deemed a racist for using a descriptive term to identity someone. I don't think it does the wider debate any good when there are more blatant and undeniable examples of racism on a regular basis.Simple as that. I'll leave you to construct whatever narrative you like around that.

 

As a general point it is good to see players willing to take such a stand so well done to them for that.

 

I don't need to construct anything, you went straight in there with the "over-reaction" claim which didn't really leave much else for me to construct. There's loads of ways to identify someone without resorting to the colour of their skin, but you bash on thinking that's the best way to point someone out. Don't be surprised if people think it's a ridiculous thing to think in 2020, though.

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givememychoice

I remember at one place of work, some colleagues spent a good few minutes trying to describe who somebody was. They went round the houses. It was only when I said he is the black guy that they knew who we were talking about. it was an organisation of 200+ employees and he was the only black one. I also played handball and due to the lack of native players, i have used, hes the scottish one. And if there was a situation where there was a group of black players with one white player, I would happily say "that white one".
Im sorry if any of what I say offends anybody, it really isnt meant to. 
I saw some saying he should have been called by his name. Do you really expect the refs to know all the bench staff? Notice how very often they will call players by their number as particularly in these europe wide competitions, you may not who a player is. As for staff on the bench? Im not surprised he didnt know the name.
And how do you describe them? Yeah, its that male. The one who looks active. The one wearing the club kit. well...that describes all of them! looking at the ones i could see, he was the only black one on the staff. 

Being Non-racist doesnt mean you dont see colour. We can see differences in skin pigment. Indeed, I am noted for distinct peely wally ness.  These days i prefer that to being the fat one. but ho hum.

 

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Perhaps some should read this before commenting

 

What was said to provoke incident between PSG and Basaksehir (caughtoffside.com)

 

 

On one side you have the interpretation of the word as ***** and on the other the Romanian official explaining how this is worded in his language ....

Sebastian Colţescu picked up on Téléfoot Chaine footage: "Negru in Romanian means black. I am not a racist."

 

It may not be as straightforward as it seems ?

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2 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Perhaps some should read this before commenting

 

What was said to provoke incident between PSG and Basaksehir (caughtoffside.com)

 

 

On one side you have the interpretation of the word as ***** and on the other the Romanian official explaining how this is worded in his language ....

Sebastian Colţescu picked up on Téléfoot Chaine footage: "Negru in Romanian means black. I am not a racist."

 

It may not be as straightforward as it seems ?

It's mostly all derived from Latin, where black is nigreos.  The "n" word being the adjective.

 

It's context that makes it racist.

 

 

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The Frenchman Returns
4 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Perhaps some should read this before commenting

 

What was said to provoke incident between PSG and Basaksehir (caughtoffside.com)

 

 

On one side you have the interpretation of the word as ***** and on the other the Romanian official explaining how this is worded in his language ....

Sebastian Colţescu picked up on Téléfoot Chaine footage: "Negru in Romanian means black. I am not a racist."

 

It may not be as straightforward as it seems ?

Its also the Romanian meaning for more derogatory terms than a colour

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3 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Perhaps some should read this before commenting

 

What was said to provoke incident between PSG and Basaksehir (caughtoffside.com)

 

 

On one side you have the interpretation of the word as ***** and on the other the Romanian official explaining how this is worded in his language ....

Sebastian Colţescu picked up on Téléfoot Chaine footage: "Negru in Romanian means black. I am not a racist."

 

It may not be as straightforward as it seems ?

I think the issue wasn’t over whether he used the n word, it was the fact that he referred to him as “that black guy”.  The point Demba Ba was making to him was “would you refer to a white player as ‘that white guy’?”

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Pasquale for King
5 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Perhaps some should read this before commenting

 

What was said to provoke incident between PSG and Basaksehir (caughtoffside.com)

 

 

On one side you have the interpretation of the word as ***** and on the other the Romanian official explaining how this is worded in his language ....

Sebastian Colţescu picked up on Téléfoot Chaine footage: "Negru in Romanian means black. I am not a racist."

 

It may not be as straightforward as it seems ?

It just shows he doesn’t realise describing the guy in this way is wrong. Just go over and point him out, problem solved. 

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I think something to bear in mind is that just because you can identify someone by a descriptive term, doesn't mean you should

 

I have a few scars on my face. I'm comfortable with them, they're part of me; but I wouldn't want someone identifying me as "that scarred bloke", especially within earshot, and more so by someone I don't know. 

 

If you have a group of people who say "we don't like being, nor want to be, identified by the colour of our skin", but it continues to happen, then yes, I think it does start to become a racist issue. 

Edited by Trajan
Grammar
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Pasquale for King
6 minutes ago, Trajan said:

I think something to bear in mind is that just because you can identify someone by a descriptive term, doesn't mean you should

 

I have a few scars on my face. I'm comfortable with them, they're part of me; but I wouldn't want someone identifying me as "that scarred bloke", especially within earshot, and more so by someone I don't know. 

 

If you have a group of people who say "we don't like being, nor want to be, identified by the colour of our skin", but it continues to happen, then yes, I think it does start to become a racist issue. 

Spot on. 

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Pasquale for King

Barca poor again tonight, Koeman reminding me of Levein making wild changes every week and during every game. I’ve never seen both CHs and the LB subbed before. Struggling to pay players and the guy running the show saying Messi should’ve been allowed to go last summer. 

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Absolutely shocking to see & hear, anyone standing up for the 4th official is part of the problem, if you can't see its wrong then go have a long hard think.

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34 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

 

 

Best solution right now that. 

 

Separate the aggrieved party from the offender(s)    Although the offence wasn't seen as an instigation by the official, it has left a bitterful situation. 

 

Replace them, then see it doesn't happen again.    Either through better training or removal of the offensive word.   Any other languages that could also incite trouble should be remedied. 

 

You'd think this was always a possibility though 🤔.   

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The Champions League. For champion racists and champion offended-on-other-people's-behalf folk. Fourth official should have known better but should have just been offered a 1-1 scrap with the player to sort it all out. Shake hands and move on, lesson learned.

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McGlynn The Money
On 25/11/2020 at 22:45, Morgan said:

What did happen then?

 

I’m all ears.

 

Are you sitting comfortably?   Then I'll begin...

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3 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

It's mostly all derived from Latin, where black is nigreos.  The "n" word being the adjective.

 

It's context that makes it racist.

 

The Latin for black is niger (in the masculine nominative singular form). I don't know where Google Translate gets "nigreos" from.

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7 hours ago, Nunya Business said:

 

I don't need to construct anything, you went straight in there with the "over-reaction" claim which didn't really leave much else for me to construct. There's loads of ways to identify someone without resorting to the colour of their skin, but you bash on thinking that's the best way to point someone out. Don't be surprised if people think it's a ridiculous thing to think in 2020, though.

Best way. Yeah thats what I said.

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4 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

The Latin for black is niger (in the masculine nominative singular form). I don't know where Google Translate gets "nigreos" from.

 

The ending "-os" sounds like Greek but don't know the word.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jambo92 said:

Absolutely shocking to see & hear, anyone standing up for the 4th official is part of the problem, if you can't see its wrong then go have a long hard think.


I think a lot of people - and I will include myself here because things are different from when I was growing up - are having to check their language in these situations so sometimes support and education is needed more than outright condemnation. 
 

Calling out people like you are isn’t helping any kind of dialogue and comes across like trying to catch people out and hound them before moving on to the next person, and hang the consequences. 

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1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:


I think a lot of people - and I will include myself here because things are different from when I was growing up - are having to check their language in these situations so sometimes support and education is needed more than outright condemnation. 
 

Calling out people like you are isn’t helping any kind of dialogue and comes across like trying to catch people out and hound them before moving on to the next person, and hang the consequences. 

 

You are correct, people sticking up for the fourth official require education and support.  I've not called out or hounded anyone - there is no debate whether this was racist or not. It is racist and was offensive enough to lead to a both teams cancelling the game.

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1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:


I think a lot of people - and I will include myself here because things are different from when I was growing up - are having to check their language in these situations so sometimes support and education is needed more than outright condemnation. 
 

Calling out people like you are isn’t helping any kind of dialogue and comes across like trying to catch people out and hound them before moving on to the next person, and hang the consequences. 

It's all about balance I suppose.

 

Even as a 51 year old leftie-liberal working in a capitalist environment it is ongoing education.

 

Best I can offer is see the person as the individual as they are first. 

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The Treasurer

Sort of on topic.

A lot of people seem disappointed that the Millwall crowd behaved impeccably at the start of their match last night.

Also the statement from the official Millwall supporters group gives an entirely different slant on what was, without doubt, a disgraceful incident on Saturday

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1 hour ago, Jambo92 said:

 

You are correct, people sticking up for the fourth official require education and support.  I've not called out or hounded anyone - there is no debate whether this was racist or not. It is racist and was offensive enough to lead to a both teams cancelling the game.

 

But there is a debate and i personally do not feel it helps if we call him out as a racist on the same terms we would a group of supporters making monkey noises.

 

(prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.)

 

I think most of us know now not to refer to anyone in a group as "the black one" but the 4th official will say he used it as an easy way of identifying an individual in a group in the same way we might say "the one with the ginger hair"...and i suspect many people still do, if pushed. But was he prejudiced, did he discriminate or antogonise on the basis of the coach's colour? The official would say he didn't whereas most of us know not to take that risk anymore.

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Seymour M Hersh
14 hours ago, Nunya Business said:

 

If he was pointing at a caucasian man, would you expect him to say "it was the white guy"?

 

If he was the only white guy in amongst four or five black guys yes I would. 

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I don't think the 4th official was trying to racist or derogatory. I think this just represents a clash of cultures between terms used in the English language and terms used in other languages & cultures. 

 

The players shouldn't have walked off. They should have got on with the game, reported it and let the 4th official explain himself to UEFAs panel after the match. Then UEFA could have looked at the context of it within the Romanian language and discipline the official if necessary. 

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givememychoice
Just now, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Can't they just say player number 5, or whatever the number is, instead of using racist terms?

Not when its not a player.

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givememychoice

From cambridge dictionary: 
Racism: policies, behaviours, rules, etc. that result in a continued unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race

or

the belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race

 

 

Now, can I ask, which bit of that definition does the incident relate to? 

Has there been any indication that being black is inferior? has he been treated unfairly?


Im genuinely intrigued to hear people's thoughts.
But if it doesnt match the definition of racism, (as i believe it doesnt), then is it peoples definition of racism that is errant?

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I feel a little for the 4th official being publicly outed as a racist, when I truly believe it wasn't meant that way. But the fact is that he used language which was inappropriate to use in such an environment. Especially at a televised football match representing one of the biggest organisations in the sport.

 

One thing people are not really discussing is the human being on the receiving end of it. 'The black one' or Pierre Webo as he's known, is perfectly right to question such behaviour, and if he feels offended by it, then who am I to question?

 

John Barnes and Micah Richards have publicly said that it wouldn't have bothered them, and that's fair enough. Some are thicker skinned than others. But, that is completely undermining Pierre Webo. Good on him and Demba Ba for standing up to it.

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13 hours ago, Lovecraft said:

It's mostly all derived from Latin, where black is nigreos.  The "n" word being the adjective.

 

It's context that makes it racist.

 

 

Yip I believe it’s not what’s said it’s how it’s said speaking as someone once called a porridge w.o.g.

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If you were looking at 10 guys in a dugout, 9 white guys and one black guy and you weren't allowed to say "the black guy" how else would you describe someone? 

 

Seems a bit ridiculous tbh if you can't say the "black guy" anymore but if you had 10 guys in the dugout, 9 black guys and one white guy, you could say "the white guy". 

 

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I guess if he'd said something like "that African gentleman over there" that would've been more acceptable.

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Nunya Business
13 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

If you were looking at 10 guys in a dugout, 9 white guys and one black guy and you weren't allowed to say "the black guy" how else would you describe someone? 

 

Seems a bit ridiculous tbh if you can't say the "black guy" anymore but if you had 10 guys in the dugout, 9 black guys and one white guy, you could say "the white guy". 

 

 


“The third guy from the left.”

 

”It was him” *points right at the person*
 

”The one with the beard”

 

”The fella with the snood.”

 

There’s literally dozens of ways to

identify someone without using the colour of their skin :laugh: That’s just lazy reasoning. 

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16 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

If you were looking at 10 guys in a dugout, 9 white guys and one black guy and you weren't allowed to say "the black guy" how else would you describe someone? 

 

Seems a bit ridiculous tbh if you can't say the "black guy" anymore but if you had 10 guys in the dugout, 9 black guys and one white guy, you could say "the white guy". 

 

 

 

How would you pick one of the white guys?

 

The 5th white guy from the left? And who had ever said that? 

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27 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

If he was the only white guy in amongst four or five black guys yes I would. 

 

I'm with you on this one. If I was sitting on a bench with 5 other 'ethnic' colleagues, I certainly wouldn't be offended if I was referred to as the 'white' guy. Now, if I was referred to as the 'white b******'... that's completely different. But sadly, these days, it seems that society dictates we should should be equally outraged by both.

 

Unfortunately, there is a large growing number in the population, who seem to want to be offended, outraged and generally, totally pissed off at every opportunity. They used to be called 'do-gooders' but now seem to be far more prevalent.

 

I don't know what the official said, if it was (which it certainly seems) to be derogatory, he deserves everything that's coming to him, and fair play to the players for walking off.

 

But I remember Billy Connelly once stating "..being a comedian today is one of the hardest jobs. We're only allowed to make fun of white, middle-aged, hetrosexual blokes!' ... certainly seems to be a fair reflection on 'these days', sadly.

 

Anyway, there is no room for racism, it should be thrown out. But actually LOOKING for outrage, where it wasn't meant, is just sad and makes doesn't help the problem.

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Pasquale for King
14 minutes ago, heartsfc_fan said:

I guess if he'd said something like "that African gentleman over there" that would've been more acceptable.

No that would be racist. If he didn’t know his name he wouldn’t know where he was from. 

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8 minutes ago, Rogue Daddy said:

 

I'm with you on this one. If I was sitting on a bench with 5 other 'ethnic' colleagues, I certainly wouldn't be offended if I was referred to as the 'white' guy. Now, if I was referred to as the 'white b******'... that's completely different. But sadly, these days, it seems that society dictates we should should be equally outraged by both.

 

Unfortunately, there is a large growing number in the population, who seem to want to be offended, outraged and generally, totally pissed off at every opportunity. They used to be called 'do-gooders' but now seem to be far more prevalent.

 

I don't know what the official said, if it was (which it certainly seems) to be derogatory, he deserves everything that's coming to him, and fair play to the players for walking off.

 

But I remember Billy Connelly once stating "..being a comedian today is one of the hardest jobs. We're only allowed to make fun of white, middle-aged, hetrosexual blokes!' ... certainly seems to be a fair reflection on 'these days', sadly.

 

Anyway, there is no room for racism, it should be thrown out. But actually LOOKING for outrage, where it wasn't meant, is just sad and makes doesn't help the problem.

 

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givememychoice

Demba Ba, says to the 4th official "you never say "this white guy" ".
Now, i have had a look through and as far as I can tell SEBASTIAN COLTESCU has never been involved in a match with Ba. So, it seems an odd reaction to say "you never say" when you havent been in the presence of somebody for long at all. Could it be that he is projecting other instances of racism he has been subjected to, on to the 4th official because of the 4th officials race?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nunya Business said:


“The third guy from the left.”

 

”It was him” *points right at the person*
 

”The one with the beard”

 

”The fella with the snood.”

 

There’s literally dozens of ways to

identify someone without using the colour of their skin :laugh: That’s just lazy reasoning. 

Why not just say the black guy? 

 

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

How would you pick one of the white guys?

 

The 5th white guy from the left? And who had ever said that? 

You could say the ginger one etc.. you generally describe people by what they look like. 

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On topic-ish:

 

The generally progressive and offence-free (in modern times, at least) BBC has a story on it's front page about the woman behind the Chinese moon landing. Why have they thought it fit to identify that a woman was behind it? Using the line of reasoning in some of the debate, should such headlines not be genderless, i.e. the person behind...

 

Even identifying them as Chinese may be at risk of causing offence. They could have been Uyghur, Mongol, Tibetan, Miao, Korean-Chinese, Anglo-Chinese, Hui, or any of the 50-odd minorities in China.

 

At what point does identifying someone by clear, objective physical or cultural characteristics, with no derogatory terms used or implied, become offensive? If it's purely down to the feelings of the recipient, then that is, I would suggest, at odds with how natural biology has worked since time began.

 

***

 

Anyway, off to get some gammon-flavoured crisps to munch on while I enjoy the MOBOs tonight.

 

 

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