Black Lives Matter Protest.

[Spellczech]

11 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

If nobody paid any attention to the statues and nobody knew who they were before, what difference does it make if they're taken down now as a statement of reparation?

Um, it is mentioned about 100 times in the previous 21 pages. Where do you stop and who gets to decide? 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Spellczech

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Just now, Spellczech said:

Um, it is mentioned about 100 times in the previous 21 pages. Where do you stop? 

 

It stops where it stops. Again, what difference does it make where it stops? What are you afraid of happening?

[The Real Maroonblood]

11 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

If nobody paid any attention to the statues and nobody knew who they were before, what difference does it make if they're taken down now as a statement of reparation?

If that person hadn’t been killed we wouldn’t have this thread.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

If that person hadn’t been killed we wouldn’t have this thread.

 

But he was killed and we're having it. 

[Norm]

6 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

The red who hasn't posted for quite a while and has a completely different posting style to me. Aye, maybe, Lucky.

 

Hope you're doing well by the way. I miss "Where is this?" and the photos you post to it.

 

I'll be honest, I get the two of you mixed up all the time. 

[Spellczech]

Just now, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

It stops where it stops. Again, what difference does it make where it stops? What are you afraid of happening?

? That is not an answer the first time your say it, or the second in the next sentence...

 

I'm afraid of the loonies taking over the asylum by nonsensically pressing delete on pretty much all Western culture, same as Chairman Mao did in China. They are still rebuilding their history as he left them with just the Emperor's Palace as an enormous shell of a complex and the Great Wall which was also too big to wreck...

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Just now, Spellczech said:

? That is not an answer the first time your say it, or the second in the next sentence...

 

I'm afraid of the loonies taking over the asylum by nonsensically pressing delete on pretty much all Western culture, same as Chairman Mao did in China. They are still rebuilding their history as he left them with just the Emperor's Palace as an enormous shell of a complex and the Great Wall which was also too big to wreck...

 

Well, if you seriously think this will lead to the complete destruction of western culture (whatever that is, by the way) then I guess we're on wildly different pages. 

[Spellczech]

Just now, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Well, if you seriously think this will lead to the complete destruction of western culture (whatever that is, by the way) then I guess we're on wildly different pages. 

Indeed, so where in your opinion should it stop and where could it stop?

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Just now, Spellczech said:

Indeed, so where in your opinion should it stop and where could it stop?

 

It will stop sometime soon probably when most people move on to other things. Which is what almost always happens. In the meantime, if a few statues come down and a few history books and movies have disclaimers added to them, that will be a small amount of lasting legacy to honour a lot of historically oppressed people. No harm in that in my view. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

2 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

If nobody paid any attention to the statues and nobody knew who they were before, what difference does it make if they're taken down now as a statement of reparation?

I can only speak for myself but I can’t say I’m overly arsed with e.g. Dundas’ statue is replaced if it is what the majority of people actually want, but it should be done in the correct way. Through petitioning, consultation or a ballot etc not being spray painted or smashed up like yobs. It’s counterproductive and gets people’s backs up needlessly.

‘Whitewashing’ history is idiotic in general though, everyone has skeletons in their closet and ripping down centuries old monuments is a a dangerous road to start going down. Robert Burns for example worked on a slave plantation, is Burns Day cancelled next?  Educating people on the mistakes and bad acts of the past is more important than erasing any trace of them.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 minute ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

I can only speak for myself but I can’t say I’m overly arsed with e.g. Dundas’ statue is replaced if it is what the majority of people actually want, but it should be done in the correct way. Through petitioning, consultation or a ballot etc not being spray painted or smashed up like yobs. It’s counterproductive and gets people’s backs up needlessly.

‘Whitewashing’ history is idiotic in general though, everyone has skeletons in their closet and ripping down centuries old monuments is a a dangerous road to start going down. Robert Burns for example worked on a slave plantation, is Burns Day cancelled next?  Educating people on the mistakes and bad acts of the past is more important than erasing any trace of them.

 

People can still get educated by reading books. We don't need monuments to a lot of these people as well. Extreme example before the strawmen jump all over it, but as far as I know Hitler has never been censored in history books but there aren't any statues to him anywhere. 

[obua]

6 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

The red who hasn't posted for quite a while and has a completely different posting style to me. Aye, maybe, Lucky.

 

Hope you're doing well by the way. I miss "Where is this?" and the photos you post to it.

 

”Where is this” would have been a good way to while away the lockdown, I’ve missed it as well.

[CJGJ]

2 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

I can only speak for myself but I can’t say I’m overly arsed with e.g. Dundas’ statue is replaced if it is what the majority of people actually want, but it should be done in the correct way. Through petitioning, consultation or a ballot etc not being spray painted or smashed up like yobs. It’s counterproductive and gets people’s backs up needlessly.

‘Whitewashing’ history is idiotic in general though, everyone has skeletons in their closet and ripping down centuries old monuments is a a dangerous road to start going down. Robert Burns for example worked on a slave plantation, is Burns Day cancelled next?  Educating people on the mistakes and bad acts of the past is more important than erasing any trace of them.

Have to agree..good post

 

Just how far back do we go in history and demand statues are removed or damaged ?..especially when many of those demanding action are just trying get publicity for themselves or group they claim to represent.

Many jumping on to a bandwagon

[Ibrahim Tall]

1 minute ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

People can still get educated by reading books. We don't need monuments to a lot of these people as well. Extreme example before the strawmen jump all over it, but as far as I know Hitler has never been censored in history books but there aren't any statues to him anywhere. 

You’ve ignored the Burns point, Burns literally worked with slaves on a plantation unlike Dundas. Should the Burns monument on Calton Hill come down too? 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 minute ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

You’ve ignored the Burns point, Burns literally worked with slaves on a plantation unlike Dundas. Should the Burns monument on Calton Hill come down too? 

 

I don't know, to be honest. That's a really complicated decision. But it's worth asking, say it did, what would happen? Like what would actually be different?

[Ibrahim Tall]

Just now, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

I don't know, to be honest. That's a really complicated decision. But it's worth asking, say it did, what would happen? Like what would actually be different?

Quite a lot tbh, if lump of metal and stone is too ‘unethical’ for modern Scotland then so is Burns day and Burns in general. Oh, and the ‘Burns supper’ would need renamed. No more teaching school kids Burns poetry, no more Auld Lang Syne at New Year etc.

 

Like I said, everyone has skeletons, especially figures from 2/300 years ago where an entirely different code of morality existed.

[jake]

What I will say is all of this has made me look at the slavery of people.

I can understand why black people would be angry about certain statues to be honest.

Reading about the use of dogs and the part they played in enforcement was an indication  of the ruthlessness and calculation of evil really.

 

There is 40 million slaves presently.

If these acts and even us talking about slavery could make a difference fek the statues.

But sadly I doubt it .

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 minute ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Quite a lot tbh, if lump of metal and stone is too ‘unethical’ for modern Scotland then so is Burns day and Burns in general. Oh, and the ‘Burns supper’ would need renamed. No more teaching school kids Burns poetry, no more Auld Lang Syne at New Year etc.

 

Like I said, everyone has skeletons, especially figures from 2/300 years ago where an entirely different code of morality existed.

 

Well then maybe Burns' work would continue to be celebrated but with a disclaimer like Gone with the Wind will do soon. It's complex shit. 😄

[Cade]

Several local authorities are creating heritage focus groups which are going to look at statues, street names, building names and plaques in their area and decide if they are offensive and would be better off removed, renamed or put into a museum alongside an explanation of the history behind them.

Can't argue with that, really.

Should perhaps be rolled out nationwide.

 

It's not a whitewashing of history. It's not culture wars. It's simple acknowledgement that our shared history has dark and shameful acts and people which cause a great deal of offence to certain sections of society and should be preserved in museums instead of being glorified in public.

 

There's extremists on both sides. 

The tommy goons who will have never heard of anybody depicted in these statues other than Churchill and think that no statue should be taken down for whatever reason no matter how evil the crimes committed.

The twitterati who can find a reason for any statue to be taken down no matter how petty the crime or how tenuous the link to a heinous act is.

There needs to be a serious, level headed discussion about this and in time a balance will be found.

 

 

[Spellczech]

30 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

It will stop sometime soon probably when most people move on to other things. Which is what almost always happens. In the meantime, if a few statues come down and a few history books and movies have disclaimers added to them, that will be a small amount of lasting legacy to honour a lot of historically oppressed people. No harm in that in my view. 

Ah right so you are of the opinion that if the Govt "just throw them a bone", they'll soon pipe down...

Edited June 12, 2020 by Spellczech

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

Ah right so you are of the opinion that if the Govt "just throw them a bone", they'll soon pipe down...

 

Not at all. What a ridiculous thing to say to be honest. Really childish. 

[Spellczech]

Just now, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Not at all. What a ridiculous thing to say to be honest. Really childish. 

I'm just interpreting what you wrote. Where did I go wrong? 

 

 

[Weakened Offender]

Can I be banned from this shambles of a thread again please Mods? 🙄

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I'm just interpreting what you wrote. Where did I go wrong? 

 

 

 

Nah, I'm out. I enjoy the debate but not at that level. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

14 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Well then maybe Burns' work would continue to be celebrated but with a disclaimer like Gone with the Wind will do soon. It's complex shit. 😄

Correction on what I’d said earlier:

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery
Burns didn’t actually go to Jamaica, he agreed to go and backed out after his poems were published. I was under impression he’d went and came back. 

[manaliveits105]

Robert the Bruce !

 
you’ve taken that too far 

Edited June 12, 2020 by manaliveits105

[Sharpie]

9 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

Can I be banned from this shambles of a thread again please Mods? 🙄

  I'm here can I help.😇

[Weakened Offender]

Just now, Sharpie said:

  I'm here can I help.😇

 

😁

[The Mighty Thor]

27 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

I don't know, to be honest. That's a really complicated decision. But it's worth asking, say it did, what would happen? Like what would actually be different?

Like what would be different if they left the statue up?

Apart from assuaging a sudden rise in woke white guilt I'm not really seeing how tearing down every statue and changing all the street names in Edinburgh actually makes black lives matter more or prevents a racist police officer in an American city from murdering another person black or white? It appears to be a fairly regular occurrence. 

 

Anyway must go there's a global extinction event by meteor inbound for people like me.

[Governor Tarkin]

50 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

Hitler has never been censored in history books but there aren't any statues to him anywhere. 

 

Clearly you've never been in my back garden, Eldar.

[Spellczech]

11 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

Nah, I'm out. I enjoy the debate but not at that level. 

Quite right - tokenism is never a lasting solution. Govt either has to be strong or roll over entirely. I favour being strong and denying these activists this cheap guilt-tripping tactic absolutely.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

2 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Clearly you've never been in my back garden, Eldar.

 

Haha. I hope it's books...

[Sharpie]

So the way its going if I come back for a wee trip some time and ask where I get a bus to Melville Drive or street I will be considered a racist and to use the proper new names of famous people loved and admired by all like Thatcher Street etc.

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

So the way its going if I come back for a wee trip some time and ask where I get a bus to Melville Drive or street I will be considered a racist and to use the proper new names of famous people loved and admired by all like Thatcher Street etc.

Yep, you'll have to ask where Corbyn St or Owen Jones Drive or The Guardian Rd is.

[Spellczech]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Yep, you'll have to ask where Corbyn St or Owen Jones Drive or The Guardian Rd is.

I think this may kill off the practice of naming streets after people and putting up statues. Other option is that it may be allowable for black Britons and women until the current imbalance is resolved.

[JudyJudyJudy]

One of my all time favourite films " Gone with the wind" has now been targeted due to its depiction of slavery in 1860s South. It is now going to have a disclaimer at the beginning of it stating whatever...This film was made in 1939 . It is a film of its time.  Quite rightly a classic , great acting in particular Vivienne Leigh as Scarlet Ohara , Clark Gable . Olivia de Havilland, Leslie Howard, great cinematograhy, rousing music from Max Steiner etc.   The  Black actress Hattie Mcdaniel played " Marmee" the maid/ slave to Scarlet.  In the film she is actually depicted as sensitive and wise.  However one of the other black  maids was depicted as stupid and insipid. 

 

Those people protesting today  forget this. It was also the first time a Black person won and Oscar. She won the Best supporting Actress Oscar against stiff opposition from De Havilland so Hollywood couldn't have been that racist to award her this. Sadly she had to sit at the back of the ballroom due to her colour but was allowed to made a speech which was very heart felt.  Poor woman , she was a good actress. Just a victim of her time.  She was once asked how did she feel about playing maids in most of her films and she stated that she would " rather earn 1000 dollars per week playing a maid than being an actual maid for 7 dollars a week".   

 

I got into a Facebook argument with a feminist about this last night who wants it completely banned. I stated that we cant judge films based on modern day sensibilities. She didn't agree. She also tore into me when i said that Scarlet was an " empowering female character ".  She was quite aggressive and angry whilst i was trying to state my opinion. 

 

I gave up " debating " with her.  

 

 

 

 

[Spellczech]

9 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

One of my all time favourite films " Gone with the wind" has now been targeted due to its depiction of slavery in 1860s South. It is now going to have a disclaimer at the beginning of it stating whatever...This film was made in 1939 . It is a film of its time.  Quite rightly a classic , great acting in particular Vivienne Leigh as Scarlet Ohara , Clark Gable . Olivia de Havilland, Leslie Howard, great cinematograhy, rousing music from Max Steiner etc.   The  Black actress Hattie Mcdaniel played " Marmee" the maid/ slave to Scarlet.  In the film she is actually depicted as sensitive and wise.  However one of the other black  maids was depicted as stupid and insipid. 

 

Those people protesting today  forget this. It was also the first time a Black person won and Oscar. She won the Best supporting Actress Oscar against stiff opposition from De Havilland so Hollywood couldn't have been that racist to award her this. Sadly she had to sit at the back of the ballroom due to her colour but was allowed to made a speech which was very heart felt.  Poor woman , she was a good actress. Just a victim of her time.  She was once asked how did she feel about playing maids in most of her films and she stated that she would " rather earn 1000 dollars per week playing a maid than being an actual maid for 7 dollars a week".   

 

I got into a Facebook argument with a feminist about this last night who wants it completely banned. I stated that we cant judge films based on modern day sensibilities. She didn't agree. She also tore into me when i said that Scarlet was an " empowering female character ".  She was quite aggressive and angry whilst i was trying to state my opinion. 

 

I gave up " debating " with her.  

 

 

 

 

I first heard the term "Culture War" from an American in the late 90s talking about how polar politics and pretty much everything in the US had become. Like everything American, we've kind of imported a cheap half-assed imitation of this...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Spellczech

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

You’ve ignored the Burns point, Burns literally worked with slaves on a plantation unlike Dundas. Should the Burns monument on Calton Hill come down too? 

You’ve got that completely wrong, he did not work on any plantation. He accepted a job on one when he was down on his luck but didn’t go.

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery

[Sharpie]

I guess its good that not too many of the real old cowboy and Indian movies haven't lasted. The sterotypical  Indian chief asking  for Wampum, and heap big Chief ,was even as kids we sort of felt they couldn't really be like that, but many movies did display a very racist characterisation of the American Indian.  as preteen children of the forties we often wondered if every black man was called Rochester, or Rastus even in the days when racism was an unused word that we had never heard of we knew there was something going on. Of course the war years with black American soldiers being prohibited from sites that entertained and welcomed white soldiers lt was clear even to  the stupidest of us, me particularly .

 

Later  creeping intomthe early teens holidaying in Kinlochleven there was an air of racism about the DP.s who worked in the Aluminum there. Actully when one looks back on life racim really was a major factor in everything.

[Pasquale for King]

16 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

One of my all time favourite films " Gone with the wind" has now been targeted due to its depiction of slavery in 1860s South. It is now going to have a disclaimer at the beginning of it stating whatever...This film was made in 1939 . It is a film of its time.  Quite rightly a classic , great acting in particular Vivienne Leigh as Scarlet Ohara , Clark Gable . Olivia de Havilland, Leslie Howard, great cinematograhy, rousing music from Max Steiner etc.   The  Black actress Hattie Mcdaniel played " Marmee" the maid/ slave to Scarlet.  In the film she is actually depicted as sensitive and wise.  However one of the other black  maids was depicted as stupid and insipid. 

 

Those people protesting today  forget this. It was also the first time a Black person won and Oscar. She won the Best supporting Actress Oscar against stiff opposition from De Havilland so Hollywood couldn't have been that racist to award her this. Sadly she had to sit at the back of the ballroom due to her colour but was allowed to made a speech which was very heart felt.  Poor woman , she was a good actress. Just a victim of her time.  She was once asked how did she feel about playing maids in most of her films and she stated that she would " rather earn 1000 dollars per week playing a maid than being an actual maid for 7 dollars a week".   

 

I got into a Facebook argument with a feminist about this last night who wants it completely banned. I stated that we cant judge films based on modern day sensibilities. She didn't agree. She also tore into me when i said that Scarlet was an " empowering female character ".  She was quite aggressive and angry whilst i was trying to state my opinion. 

 

I gave up " debating " with her.  

 

 

 

 

Films and dramas can’t be included in this, it’s crazy and taking attention away from the point. Alleged comedies like Til death us do part have rightly been banned.

[Ibrahim Tall]

58 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

Correction on what I’d said earlier:

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery
Burns didn’t actually go to Jamaica, he agreed to go and backed out after his poems were published. I was under impression he’d went and came back. 

 

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

You’ve got that completely wrong, he did not work on any plantation. He accepted a job on one when he was down on his luck but didn’t go.

https://www.scotland.org/features/robert-burns-and-slavery

 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

 

Apologies I hadn’t got that far down, just saw you mention it twice. I’ve had that argument a few times these last few days. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Several local authorities are creating heritage focus groups which are going to look at statues, street names, building names and plaques in their area and decide if they are offensive and would be better off removed, renamed or put into a museum alongside an explanation of the history behind them.

Can't argue with that, really.

Should perhaps be rolled out nationwide.

 

It's not a whitewashing of history. It's not culture wars. It's simple acknowledgement that our shared history has dark and shameful acts and people which cause a great deal of offence to certain sections of society and should be preserved in museums instead of being glorified in public.

 

There's extremists on both sides. 

The tommy goons who will have never heard of anybody depicted in these statues other than Churchill and think that no statue should be taken down for whatever reason no matter how evil the crimes committed.

The twitterati who can find a reason for any statue to be taken down no matter how petty the crime or how tenuous the link to a heinous act is.

There needs to be a serious, level headed discussion about this and in time a balance will be found.

 

 

Well said.

[Nucky Thompson]

19 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

One of my all time favourite films " Gone with the wind" has now been targeted due to its depiction of slavery in 1860s South. It is now going to have a disclaimer at the beginning of it stating whatever...This film was made in 1939 . It is a film of its time.  Quite rightly a classic , great acting in particular Vivienne Leigh as Scarlet Ohara , Clark Gable . Olivia de Havilland, Leslie Howard, great cinematograhy, rousing music from Max Steiner etc.   The  Black actress Hattie Mcdaniel played " Marmee" the maid/ slave to Scarlet.  In the film she is actually depicted as sensitive and wise.  However one of the other black  maids was depicted as stupid and insipid. 

 

Those people protesting today  forget this. It was also the first time a Black person won and Oscar. She won the Best supporting Actress Oscar against stiff opposition from De Havilland so Hollywood couldn't have been that racist to award her this. Sadly she had to sit at the back of the ballroom due to her colour but was allowed to made a speech which was very heart felt.  Poor woman , she was a good actress. Just a victim of her time.  She was once asked how did she feel about playing maids in most of her films and she stated that she would " rather earn 1000 dollars per week playing a maid than being an actual maid for 7 dollars a week".   

 

I got into a Facebook argument with a feminist about this last night who wants it completely banned. I stated that we cant judge films based on modern day sensibilities. She didn't agree. She also tore into me when i said that Scarlet was an " empowering female character ".  She was quite aggressive and angry whilst i was trying to state my opinion. 

 

I gave up " debating " with her.  

 

 

 

 

The simple answer is delete your facebook. it will do your blood pressure the World of good.

Never had it myself. It's bad enough reading the shit of assholes on here

[Pasquale for King]

1 hour ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

People can still get educated by reading books. We don't need monuments to a lot of these people as well. Extreme example before the strawmen jump all over it, but as far as I know Hitler has never been censored in history books but there aren't any statues to him anywhere. 

There are some great articles about how they dealt with it.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/20/why-there-are-no-nazi-statues-in-germany-215510

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?next_url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.washingtonpost.com%2fnews%2fworldviews%2fwp%2f2017%2f11%2f11%2fthis-museum-didnt-think-its-hitler-statue-was-a-problem-until-the-selfies-started%2f

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/germany-has-no-nazi-memorials/597937/

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, Normthebarman said:

I'll be honest, I get the two of you mixed up all the time. 

 

I'll help you out then, Norm. In future, if you see a post where the "red" in question is making a sensible measured point, it's probably redm. If, on the other hand, the poster is making a vain attempt at humour, being silly, posting images/videos with only a tenuous connection to the thread, or having people get angry at him, it's probably me.  

 

To complicate things, there's another poster simply called "red" who posts from time to time!

[Morgan]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

I'll help you out then, Norm. In future, if you see a post where the "red" in question is making a sensible measured point, it's probably redm. If, on the other hand, the poster is making a vain attempt at humour, being silly, posting images/videos with only a tenuous connection to the thread, or having people get angry at him, it's probably me.  

 

To complicate things, there's another poster simply called "red" who posts from time to time!

Christ!

 

Its not you, after all.

 

FFS.

[Spellczech]

11 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Films and dramas can’t be included in this, it’s crazy and taking attention away from the point. Alleged comedies like Til death us do part have rightly been banned.

You don't get to choose. That is the thing about this  - the loonies are in charge of the asylum. Rest of you supporting it are just the chorus line, the backing track...If a "movement" has no focus, no point, then everything is in play...You're backing anarchy bud.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Morgan said:

Christ!

 

Its not you, after all.

 

FFS.

 

It never was me, Morgan. I am merely an illusion, fated to flit in and out of the JKB pages with the grace of a charging elephant, leaving chaos in my wake.

 

Oh, and sometimes I make a reasonable point or two (to which I limit myself to a maximum of one a week, two if the prevailing wind is westerly).

[Morgan]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

It never was me, Morgan. I am merely an illusion, fated to flit in and out of the JKB pages with the grace of a charging elephant, leaving chaos in my wake.

 

Oh, and sometimes I make a reasonable point or two (to which I limit myself to a maximum of one a week, two if the prevailing wind is westerly).

Ya slavering old goat.