SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[cb1874]

I suspect this may well just be the first draft. The SPFL board meeting today will throw up some questions as will clubs from all leagues. Thereafter, various tweaks will be advised/made to suit as many as possible. I didn’t read anywhere that it was a “take it or leave it”. It was a proposal. The SPFL want this and I believe, will do all they can to get it accepted. 

[rory78]

Why is this proposal only for 2 years and not permanent???3 leagues of 14 to me looks better than the guff we currently have - its going to get turned down due to the amount of relegations in 2 years 

[Hearts1975]

5 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

To be fair  Hamilton can wipe that debt just by betting on the result of Anns proposal?

 

 

Seriously though, some clubs will be struggling next month and may well kick the admin can further down the road, until they hit a cul-de-sac.  If we go to court that could accelerate that route, and the more clubs in admin then their voting rights alter.

 

Yes its about saving Hearts to a point, to most of us that is priority 1.  But is that a bad thing, I thought it was about saving clubs?  we are one of those clubs?  The reality is: its about saving all clubs? killing us off, wont mean oh we are now going to turn up and support somebody else?  We are not Jabba T when his beloved Airdrieonians went bust?  no he went to work for the club that killed his?

 

Clubs need to stop being so childish, so what if Hearts get a get out of jail card? it wont be at the expense of anybody else?  and ICT benefit, as do Partick and Stranraer?  Even Brechin get to keep their status?

 

Killing us off wont happen, but dont expect any sympathy from us when your clubs suffer too?  If everybody was to rally around us and as a consequence us all, then any club in trouble fans would help each other?  Right now unless the naritive changes then its Hearts First!

Fantastic post 👍

[Captain Canada]

Clubs being worried about possible relegation in two year's time are crazy. They may not exist after this summer. 

 

Why not be positive and say "for a small club like ours we're going to be two promotions away from the premier league - what an opportunity." 

[MCW1976]

1 minute ago, rory78 said:

Why is this proposal only for 2 years and not permanent???3 leagues of 14 to me looks better than the guff we currently have - its going to get turned down due to the amount of relegations in 2 years 

Because some clubs say you shouldn’t make big plans during a crisis.

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world, everyone else knows that a crisis requires serious action, from serious people.

[Marty Byrde]

2 hours ago, willie wallace said:

Surprised to hear that Hamilton are in trouble.

I know their crowds are terrible but always got the impression they were very well run and able to live within their means quite comfortably.

 

I'm unsurprised. Didn't they get scammed by some Nigerian prince fraudster nonsense a while back?

 

 

If clubs need to fall by the wayside so be it.

 

[Ethan Hunt]

7 minutes ago, Simmo said:

Ethan, it is difficult to 'ignore the noise' when nearly all of the press are using headlines like 'doomed to fail' when in fact they should all be behind the plan and all commenting on why didn't Dungcaster think of this plan. As I said earlier why do we need a vote. Surely the SPFL should now be saying this is the way forward and this is how it will be. No shilly shally get on with it.

The noise is just that. Anyone Scottish football fan knows what media to look at to find sensationalist headlines, unnamed sources quoting negativity, opinionated reporters, outspoken pundits. Just ignore them. I only ever listen to Sportsound when Tom English is on. It’s the only time when you can be confident that someone is talking from an reasoned, balanced and educated position. I avoid the rest.

 

It is now critical that the SPFL board step up and take control and show leadership. They have sat on their hands for too long. I think - but I’m not sure - we need a vote due to the change in money distribution. Whether the SPFL board can force through the reconstruction and money side of things separately I don’t know. I’ll be taking myself off to find out later today.

[Agentjambo]

United in trouble too,wouldn't be surprised if St johnstone were to follow soon.

[Gilberts Fridge]

16 minutes ago, Stone1992 said:

 

I work in Audit and we are having to put disclosures in almost every audit we do about Covid.

 

Not saying Hamilton aren't in difficulty but think you will see this in a lot of Audit reports this year.

 

@Footballfirst  Am I correct in thinking that these accounts were overdue. Given they were for the period up to the 30 June 2019 would they not have been due on the 30 March 2020. 

 

 

 

 

I would be more concerned about the statement that they have not obtained all information and explanations considered necessary for the purposes of the audit or were unable to determine whether adequate accounting records have been kept.

 

It may be there was lack off access because of Covid 19 but these accounts could have been drafted shortly after year end and finalised before January as per their 2018 submission.

 

I have run a business for four years and my accountant has direct access to my accounts via our accounting software. Our bank accounts direct feed into this software. Non of this is rocket science and I do not need to visit my accountant to submit our company tax return

 

 

[Ethan Hunt]

2 hours ago, Koolkeith said:

Well run? haha They gave hundreds of thousands of pounds to a NIgerian con man. 

So did we.

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

United in trouble too,wouldn't be surprised if St johnstone were to follow soon.

 

United in trouble is very interesting indeed.

[Everybody Loves Baz!]

2 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

United in trouble too,wouldn't be surprised if St johnstone were to follow soon.

And where are you getting this information from may we ask?

Or is it just a guess?

[DETTY29]

Heads or tails that the SPFL board today go down the 'can do' or 'nah, rule biik' route?

 

'Rod, what do the rules say?' instead of 'Rod, what needs done to make this happen'

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, willie wallace said:

Forgot about that😀

They’re owned by a couple of gangsters, well known in foutball circles apparently.

[Anything2]

17 minutes ago, rory78 said:

Why is this proposal only for 2 years and not permanent???3 leagues of 14 to me looks better than the guff we currently have - its going to get turned down due to the amount of relegations in 2 years 

It was to speed up the process, Ann acknowledged that reconstruction talks can take years and teams would understandably be reluctant to make long term decisions in time to have plans in place for next season. It may have been better perhaps to have a built in review in 2 years time to either ratify the new set up or revert back, rather than state now that things will definitely revert back to 4 tiers. Would give teams a chance to experience the new format before deciding what the long term plan is. After all, it is always harder to get support for change than the status quo. However in 2 years time the 3 tier set up would be the new status quo and teams may be reluctant to change back. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Anything2

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

 

@Footballfirst  Am I correct in thinking that these accounts were overdue. Given they were for the period up to the 30 June 2019 would they not have been due on the 30 March 2020. 

 

 

 

 

I would be more concerned about the statement that they have not obtained all information and explanations considered necessary for the purposes of the audit or were unable to determine whether adequate accounting records have been kept.

 

It may be there was lack off access because of Covid 19 but these accounts could have been drafted shortly after year end and finalised before January as per their 2018 submission.

 

I have run a business for four years and my accountant has direct access to my accounts via our accounting software. Our bank accounts direct feed into this software. Non of this is rocket science and I do not need to visit my accountant to submit our company tax return

 

 

I think you are correct, and unless they’ve been published Hibs accounts for last year  are overdue too.

[Rooster20]

The way things are going I will be shocked if there is still 42 clubs left in the SPFL by the team the league starts again. Think more than a couple are in serious financial strife.

[lost in leith]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

I think you are correct, and unless they’ve been published Hibs accounts for last year  are overdue too.

I wondered about this but it turns out companies were given a 3 month extension to file accounts.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-month-extension-period-to-file-accounts-during-covid-19

[Agentjambo]

7 minutes ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said:

And where are you getting this information from may we ask?

Or is it just a guess?

Sorry,cant reveal my source.

[Everybody Loves Baz!]

1 minute ago, Agentjambo said:

Sorry,cant reveal my source.

Course you can't.

[Gilberts Fridge]

Just now, lost in leith said:

I wondered about this but it turns out companies were given a 3 month extension to file accounts.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-month-extension-period-to-file-accounts-during-covid-19

 

Thanks for that, I calculated that their accounts were due on the 30 March, the extension was issued on the 25 March so you would have hoped that their accounts were ready at the time but technically they are ok with the submission.

 

I think the Hibs accounts were published in early April

[Sooperstar]

2 hours ago, BelgeJambo said:

Doncaster stated early on that the board would support Ann and reconstruction ideas.

 

Their silence and lack of coercion for this vote says a lot 

 

 

I don't know if they will or won't come out in support for it but FFS at least let them have their meeting to discuss it first. 

[lost in leith]

41 minutes ago, Stone1992 said:

 

I work in Audit and we are having to put disclosures in almost every audit we do about Covid.

 

Not saying Hamilton aren't in difficulty but think you will see this in a lot of Audit reports this year.

Thanks.  Out of interest could you please let us have your thoughts on the statement below the going concern wording?

 

"Matters required to report by exception

Arising from the limitation of our work referred to above:

- we have not obtained all the information and explanations that we considered necessary for the purpose of our audit; and

- we were unable to determine whether adequate accounting records have beenkept."

 

I couldn't follow what the "limitation of our work referred to above" was.  I wondered if it was something to do with the fact that these are accounts for a small private company so the accounts and the audit don't need to be as comprehensive as they would be for a plc.  However, the same caveats don't appear in the accounts for the year to 30 June 2018, so I am intrigued!

 

Both sets of accounts here -

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005420/filing-history

[Pasquale for King]

11 minutes ago, lost in leith said:

I wondered about this but it turns out companies were given a 3 month extension to file accounts.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/companies-to-receive-3-month-extension-period-to-file-accounts-during-covid-19

Thanks for that, strange that they’ve waited so long to publish them anyway. 

[Sooperstar]

24 minutes ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said:

And where are you getting this information from may we ask?

Or is it just a guess?

A guess or made up. You can choose which one. They're much the same.

[Hagar the Horrible]

4 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Thanks for that, strange that they’ve waited so long to publish them anyway. 

MOT's have been given an extention etc.  having accounts delayed wont kick Hamiltons troubles 3 month further down the road?  If they are in bother, they are in bother?  any bill could cause problems, certainly no fans will cause bother, and perhaps playing behind closed doors will be fatal?   perhaps a half season will too? Shame really!

[Jamboelite]

38 minutes ago, rory78 said:

Why is this proposal only for 2 years and not permanent???3 leagues of 14 to me looks better than the guff we currently have - its going to get turned down due to the amount of relegations in 2 years 

Its a starting point with a review to appease temp and permanent

[Last Laff]

54 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

i don't know what kind of outlook on the world these people have, but there judgements are generally based  on normality & giving us a kick in (the mini huns stuff is hilarious right enough).....

 

e.g. -

 

 

Hearts fans have in their number a fairly large percentage of people who cannot get season tickets for Ibrox. You know the type their knuckles touch the ground. They will make a large percentage of the fans who will not come to EEP. Other more decent ones might stay away on their first visit but will come in huge numbers, especially if they are top of the league.

They need a complete reality check. 

[Last Laff]

Just now, Jamboelite said:

Its a starting point with a review to appease temp and permanent

It’s going to be permanent what clubs are going to vote mid season to go back to what we have now when six clubs in two leagues are going to be relegated  

[Jamboelite]

30 minutes ago, Everybody Loves Baz! said:

And where are you getting this information from may we ask?

Or is it just a guess?

United were losing heavily being in the Championship and had over extended that i do know from people at United.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Jamboelite

[Everybody Loves Baz!]

3 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

A guess or made up. You can choose which one. They're much the same.

I forgot for a minute who actually posted it.

Agentmittyjambo has a history of making shite up I believe?

[BelgeJambo]

12 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

I don't know if they will or won't come out in support for it but FFS at least let them have their meeting to discuss it first. 

You are right

Just seemed a bit more vocal prior to the ****ed up vote

[RENE]

Why can't  some of these chairmen (and journos) see this is about saving clubs.  They wont be relegated in two years.. they will return to status quo, if they want.

[lost in leith]

3 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

MOT's have been given an extention etc.  having accounts delayed wont kick Hamiltons troubles 3 month further down the road?  If they are in bother, they are in bother?  any bill could cause problems, certainly no fans will cause bother, and perhaps playing behind closed doors will be fatal?   perhaps a half season will too? Shame really!

Not sure you can say that they are on bother based on the accounts to 30 June 2019.  Sure one of their directors was quoted as saying that they could cope with closed doors games for a whole season a while back.

[David Black]

I must say that there is a large part of me wants recon to fail. We then go to court and all that implies for the governance of the SPFL.  If recon is voted through , then everything is swept under the carpet and Scottish football carries on as before. The corrupt are still there and a certain club will still hold all the power. Win or lose the court case everything will still have to come into the public domain. Doncaster knows this, hence his willingness to see this through. He could not care less about all the clubs wellbeing he is only concerned about his self preservation. Doncaster and others are terrified this ends up in court as it means the end for them. Lose and it costs us money, but as AB stated yesterday we have the financial backing whatever happens.

[Gilamas]

Just now, Last Laff said:

It’s going to be permanent what clubs are going to vote mid season to go back to what we have now when six clubs in two leagues are going to be relegated  

You may well be right. But presumably clubs voted for the mass culling prior to the introduction of the premier league in 1975. Maybe part of the "spin" would be that clubs in the premiership would not be relegated ... but the top 11 (plus a special invitation to the winner of the next lower league down) would be elevated?🤥

[Last Laff]

48 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

It’s the clubs whose existence would be on the line due to the repercussions of not accepting it. That will bring about legal action from Hearts. If - and I’m confident - that legal action is successful the financial implications for some clubs will threaten their very existence.

 

The proposal put forward by AB is designed specifically to deal with the current and short/medium term issues facing Scottish football I.e. COVID19. It is not a blueprint for the long term future of the game, it’s a survival plan!

 

There’s two important parts of this proposal. Firstly it is only for two years. Secondly, and the most important one, by regrouping clubs it allows clubs with the finances to do so to play games behind closed doors initially. Those who require to have some fans attend games before they can start to play can have a curtailed season. Those clubs who need fans through the gates to survive can mothball until the situation improves that will allow that. Every club therefore stands the best chance of surviving. The clubs will then have a set up that can best fit their current and future needs until such time as we find other ways to deal with the ‘new normal’.

 

Any posturing about where clubs clubs fit into that model it just that, posturing. Any club moaning about being in a different league needs a reality check.  A wee look at the balance sheet will tell clubs where they fit into the model. They might not like where they fit, but that’s what happens when reality bites.

If we win after taking legal action (which is still a big if) how much do you estimate it would cost each club?  And do you think that price would be worth voting it through alone? Perhaps the clubs don’t think our legal route will win? Perhaps it won’t be as costly as predicting?  I see very little benefit for Peterhead Cove or Clyde voting to play at a lower level than they are at the moment just in case we take legal action and win.  Also considering these clubs at the moment have very little running costs I fail to see how close to they are to bankruptcy either. 
 

The design put forward for me looks like a proposal to save the top clubs in Scottish football and an extended top league with especially us first and foremost.  I’ve simply to problem at all with that as its what she should be doing.   I don’t see under the top 14 of this proposal how it helps them, teams like Dundee and Dunfermline, Morton, Ayr.  It doesn’t change much at all for them but doesn’t help them either so I’m not sure why they would vote through something that would put them in serious relegation worries in a couple of years. 

[Lfhearts]

38 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

United in trouble too,wouldn't be surprised if St johnstone were to follow soon.

You got correct year ?

[Stone1992]

8 minutes ago, lost in leith said:

Thanks.  Out of interest could you please let us have your thoughts on the statement below the going concern wording?

 

"Matters required to report by exception

Arising from the limitation of our work referred to above:

- we have not obtained all the information and explanations that we considered necessary for the purpose of our audit; and

- we were unable to determine whether adequate accounting records have beenkept."

 

I couldn't follow what the "limitation of our work referred to above" was.  I wondered if it was something to do with the fact that these are accounts for a small private company so the accounts and the audit don't need to be as comprehensive as they would be for a plc.  However, the same caveats don't appear in the accounts for the year to 30 June 2018, so I am intrigued!

 

Both sets of accounts here -

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005420/filing-history

 

28 minutes ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

 

@Footballfirst  Am I correct in thinking that these accounts were overdue. Given they were for the period up to the 30 June 2019 would they not have been due on the 30 March 2020. 

 

 

 

 

I would be more concerned about the statement that they have not obtained all information and explanations considered necessary for the purposes of the audit or were unable to determine whether adequate accounting records have been kept.

 

It may be there was lack off access because of Covid 19 but these accounts could have been drafted shortly after year end and finalised before January as per their 2018 submission.

 

I have run a business for four years and my accountant has direct access to my accounts via our accounting software. Our bank accounts direct feed into this software. Non of this is rocket science and I do not need to visit my accountant to submit our company tax return

 

 

 

I think as said there was an extension given of three months so they weren't late, but as they were due on 30 March you would as said assume that most of the work would have been done by then. Only thing that i would imagine that would change this late would be any issue around Going Concern due to Covid. 

 

The line about not obtaining information or explanations could be that they are unable to produce forecast or given assurances over where they can get funds if needed that the auditors are comfortable enough with to say they are a going concern.

 

As for accounting records i couldn't hazard a guess at what this could be. But its not something i have ever had included in any audit i have worked on, but then again its up to who ever signs the report to decided if it needs to be included. 

 

The limitation of work will more likely be due to the uncertainty around going concern and them not being given enough acceptable information to state they are a going concern. It wont be because they are a limited company and not a PLC as the even though the work undertaken is less than a PLC the limitation will just refer to the work the needed to undertake but couldn't.

 

This is making up for the reduced working hours due to covid 😄

[ericb]

If any board of a club read that proposal and decide to vote against it, then they are doing it for selfish, get it up yes reasons, nothing else. It is filled with common sense, and yes, it benefits us, but we shouldn't have had to compile it in the first place, that was the SPFLs job.

[His name is]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

This is all about Hearts saving Hearts.   Self interest.

 

Ooft... Hearts.   They're big.   They'll bring their fans to our decaying corpse of a club.   We might survive.   

 

1 hour ago, Rick Sanchez said:

I would hope Budge refuses tickets for away grounds next season, just to get the point across. If some of the die hards want to go they can purchase from the home clubs directly.

 

Not a chance I'd be doing that, other than ICT.

Is there still an association of hearts supporters club? 

 

A statement from hearts fans saying they would consider not attending away games in the championship might open the eyes of some of these clubs.

[rory78]

Time to get court action up and running - this whole thing is now tedious as we all knew these small minded muppets weren't going to vote for it 🙄

[will-i-am-a-jambo]

59 minutes ago, rory78 said:

Why is this proposal only for 2 years and not permanent???3 leagues of 14 to me looks better than the guff we currently have - its going to get turned down due to the amount of relegations in 2 years 

 

Temporary things have a bad (or good) habit of becoming permanent.

[Hagar the Horrible]

9 minutes ago, lost in leith said:

Not sure you can say that they are on bother based on the accounts to 30 June 2019.  Sure one of their directors was quoted as saying that they could cope with closed doors games for a whole season a while back.

I am not saying that at all, I have no idea on their current financial status, only going by that tweet?  But if they currently are in bother, then their last published accounts just dont matter?  If they are in bother, then they are in bother, if not then so be it?

 

What I will say is nobody will volunteer information that they are in trouble, or it will cause a panic, and expediate that trouble?  All we can do is watch this space, perhaps open a book on who will crumble first? 

 

Guess a list of who wants/can:

play behind closed doors?

wait until fans can return?

Hibernate for 12 months?

Survive?

Die?

[johnthomas]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Not a chance she would ever do that.

Nor should she . That is the job of the fans

[EH23-Jambo]

Never thought I'd agree with Provan and Walker in same week. Link to article worth a read. 

 

 

[ToadKiller Dog]

I'm semi confident this proposal may well move forward .

The championship view of 6 relegations seems weak and I doubt backed by all 10 teams .

I think hibs board have just enough sense to back it ,my thoughts if any two premiership clubs vote it down it will be st midden for self interest and Dundee united who said last time they were against any form of change at any time .so depends if celtic can strong arm them .

 

I dont think any club wants to go to court and I think they know that threats real .

 

[Deevers]

1 hour ago, Koolkeith said:

That would be a good proposal, but does create more bad blood.  

The bad blood is there now. If we do land up playing against the prize plooks I hope the away end is empty at their grounds when we are there. 

[jamboinglasgow]

4 minutes ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

I'm semi confident this proposal may well move forward .

The championship view of 6 relegations seems weak and I doubt backed by all 10 teams .

I think hibs board have just enough sense to back it ,my thoughts if any two premiership clubs vote it down it will be st midden for self interest and Dundee united who said last time they were against any form of change at any time .so depends if celtic can strong arm them .

 

I dont think any club wants to go to court and I think they know that threats real .

 

 

I think the best way to pacify worries about 6 relegation is to say that the vote at the end of 2 years will require 75% to vote in favour to return to the status quo. Then it means that even an expanded 14 team league can be kept if at least 4 clubs vote no from Championship clubs.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

This depends I believe on whether those who don't fancy playing get a diktat,  they must.